The only thing that really bugs me about the format of the magazine is the "Faiths" articles. NOT because they aren't well-written, because they ARE. It's because a player doesn't have these articles readily available for them. These books are supposed to be for DMs.
I think the faith articles should NOT be in the Pathfinder adv path issues....they need their own book. For all I know there may be one in the works...but it will contain alot of recycled content if thats the case.What I would really like to see in the magazine is the return of set-pieces...or something similar, like adventure hooks or short side treks.
Just a note: the AP books are not DM-only. In fact, those articles are included specifically to increase the appeal of the APs to the general audience.
Furthermore, if you subscribe, you get the PDF for free, and one of the download options for the PDF is "one file per chapter". That way, it's easy to let your players read just the Gazetteer chapters, without giving them access to the adventure itself if it's something you're going to run.
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I'd love to drop the fiction, but I know that I'm facing a lopsided battle here :)
I agree with you on this one. I've never really enjoyed the fiction, so it's a bit of a waste on my end.
Still, I can see why other people might like it, and apparently it is necessary to meet the monthly schedule. Soooo... *shrug*
The only thing I'd like to see changed are the Iconic statblock pages. But that's for another thread.
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Well having written Adventures both alone and with others the fact that they just pick one person to do it is still kinda dumb if you are looking at making that person work to hard. Two or three people working jointly on the same project could (I know from experience) do one heck of a job making a good adventure (of course if they don't work well together it would increase work load)and that would cut down on work load while increasing Adventure content. I am not agreeing or disagreeing on the usefulness of the extra stuff in the Pathfinder series because I only run a couple of the early ones from Dungeon Like Cauldron Shackled city and the other one that came out afterward.
All this Monday Morning quarterbacking is hilarious. Do you call up Tiger and give him tips on his golf swing too?
Just because you have some experience with a subject doesn't make you an expert. Spending 5 years being the single most successful company at making adventure paths. Considering how profitable it is for Paizo (and that their success with APs is at least partially responsible for the success of the PFRPG) there should be 3-4 other companies feeding at the AP trough. Where are they?
Paizo is the Tiger Woods of the AP business, they do listen to their customers but they'd be crazy to make a big change to their swing when they clearly have the best swing in the game.
I realize that the developer bottleneck that prevents Paizo making adventures longer is a troublesome one; but what if the adventures needed to be turned by authors in a few weeks sooner-- so that Paizo editors could have a longer time to review more pages? It might take a few months to rework the lead-in time for any adventure, but the reward would be a longer and more relaxing development cycle that permits more pages to be produced per adventure.
I subscribed to kingmaker, but paying $20 per episode (counting the $5 shipping cost vs. no shipping if bought local or $3.50 shipping if I buy a regular book from Amazon) sight unseen became a bit too much for me in the absence of interesting rules like those presented in KM 1 and KM 2, etc.
The City gazeteers are nice, but I don't particularly enjoy the Deity information-- I use my own gods and I find them to be quite bland and replaceable overall. For those who like the Golarion deities, perhaps they could just purchase the Golarion Deities book. I would prefer to have an article on something that I can repurpose in a homebrew world.
I would be much more likely, like the initial post, to resubscribe if a few minor changes were made:
a. The additional 'supplements' should focus more on new and innovative 'rules' than on deities.
b. At least one of the 4-5 pages of ads in the back of each issue should be cut. I understand that one or two products should be advertised, but it's annoying that I am paying twice as much for Pathfinder as I paid for Dungeon and yet I am still getting 4-5 pages of ads.
c. The Kingmaker policy of putting adventure information on the inset and the back cover of the adventure is a great policy. I am not very interested in the art for the sake of the art-- the internet has a great deal of interesting art- If I am going to buy an AP, I want content and text, not pictures. (Note: The Kingmaker balance of pictures and usable text on the inset is a good balance, I think).
e. I do not like the stories. I realize there is a significant lobby for them. Still, I would rather have game-usable content.
I realize that everyone has different tastes, but these are mine.
I gave Serpents Skull a trial, and given the slight flaws with the path (2 deity articles upcoming, etc.) I decided to end my subscription and purchase the magazine individually if anything catches my eye. I hope and I am confident that there will be good content in future AP episodes; Paizo is a good company and I greatly enjoyed Kingmaker. But without the above flaws, I probably would have re-subscribed. Also if the magazine cost 12-15 dollars instead of 20 (counting shipping) I would have likely continued my subscription despite the existence of what I consider flaws (I doubt that the price will go down, but mentioning that is still worth a try).
Thank you. -LD.
Also if the magazine cost 12-15 dollars instead of 20 (counting shipping) I would have likely continued my subscription despite the existence of what I consider flaws (I doubt that the price will go down, but mentioning that is still worth a try).
Heh, where I live I pay the equivalent of about $30 for each adventure path issue, and I'm quite happy to do so :)
I will never forgive Wizards of the Coast for that particular "circle the wagons" maneuver that left me holding a functionally useless(at the time)paid subscription to a product I'd just discovered and loved.
...Same thing happened to me. I felt that Dungeon kept improving in quality over time and the Savage Tide Adventure Path was amazingly good, so I subscribed. Then about 9 months later the transition happened (!) I am glad that Paizo is continuing its proud tradition.
Also if the magazine cost 12-15 dollars instead of 20 (counting shipping) I would have likely continued my subscription despite the existence of what I consider flaws (I doubt that the price will go down, but mentioning that is still worth a try).Heh, where I live I pay the equivalent of about $30 for each adventure path issue, and I'm quite happy to do so :)
I fully admit I prefer to hold onto my money. I do not think I am alone in that.
For example, I only purchased the 3.5 books when I could buy them for 6 dollars apiece. (It was a surprising deal). Most books I own are purchased at half price on the resale market. The only "new" books I have actually purchased are produced by Paizo--because I realize that if I do not purchase from Paizo, it may go out of business.
Creative Director
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I realize that the developer bottleneck that prevents Paizo making adventures longer is a troublesome one; but what if the adventures needed to be turned by authors in a few weeks sooner-- so that Paizo editors could have a longer time to review more pages?
That won't make a difference, really, since no matter HOW early we need to get things in... once we have all the materials from the author, we STILL only have one month at most to do the development, layout, and editing. Because it's a monthly product. The only way to get more time on development, layout, and editing is to make it not a monthly product.
If it were NOT a monthly product, we could make the adventure any length we wanted by adjusting how much sooner we got the manuscript in from the author.
That won't make a difference, really, since no matter HOW early we need to get things in... once we have all the materials from the author, we STILL only have one month at most to do the development, layout, and editing. Because it's a monthly product. The only way to get more time on development, layout, and editing is to make it not a monthly product.If it were NOT a monthly product, we could make the adventure any length we wanted by adjusting how much sooner we got the manuscript in from the author.
Well it could be done but I don't think it makes economic sense.
Essentially hire enough staff to have two APs being developed in parallel by completely different staff members. One of those APs would still need to be done in the 6 month time period but the other would have 1 year to develop 6 months worth of material. Furthermore the first group - once it finished that first project would, from now on, have 1 year to develop 6 months worth of product.
All of that said its hard to see how the cost would justify this. You nearly double the production cost paying for all this new staff and I some how doubt that the new 'long adventure' format somehow doubles the customer base. In fact I kind of doubt we the customers really want double sized adventures, we just think we do. In fact all that extra content just means we have a lot more filler in between combat encounters or we are on some kind of a slow XP track.
I'm sure some people really do think that the APs have far to much combat to role playing or that advancement is way to fast but I suspect that is more a vocal minority. In truth I suspect if you doubled the amount of AP everyone was getting you'd just be causing the customer base to reach their saturation point faster - most of us presumably could not double the speed at which we played through adventures after all.
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Kind of off-topic, but weren't you a previous Avatar?
<offtopic>
Heh, no, but I get that a lot :-) 'Sozin' is a semi-famous (for those in the 'know') Russian chess analyst who popularized a viciously sharp response ( 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cd4 4 Nd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6! 6 Bc4! ) to the Sicilian Najdorf.
I've been using it on online forums since '92 or so.
</offtopic>
I'm sure the sales numbers on AP's are sufficient to tell Paizo the formula is just right re a mix of "adventures" and support articles. I'm firmly in the camp happy w/ this marriage of Dragon + Dungeon, w/ the added benefit that the "Dragon" part of PF expands the world of Golarion, which I quite enjoy.
Some of the arguments in this thread follow along the lines of Goldilocks and the 3 Bears. Some people only want the adventures, and the other half is of no or limited use. On the other extreme, the adventures are tangential to their enjoyment of the particular issue. Then there's me, happy w/ it all in toto.
While it might be years before I get to run the actual adventures (I'm still running adventures from 3.5 in Dungeon et al), I do from time to time yank out encounters from an AP issue. Like, in the last Kingmaker issue #36, I pulled the Gnurly Witch Annis Hag to make a covey w/ 2 other Hags from Dungeon (the Night Hag Gyneweir from "The Twisted Run" and the Green Hag Gathra from "Root of Evil") I'd already used as nemeses for my characters. Worked out just great.
In short, don't change a thing. I feel bad for people who find only limited use for these AP's, but really, even w/ homebrew worlds, it's not hard to be inspired by stuff from someone else's world. Especially when it's as well-put together as what we see in Golarion.
edit for typo
I realize that the developer bottleneck that prevents Paizo making adventures longer is a troublesome one; but what if the adventures needed to be turned by authors in a few weeks sooner-- so that Paizo editors could have a longer time to review more pages?That won't make a difference, really, since no matter HOW early we need to get things in... once we have all the materials from the author, we STILL only have one month at most to do the development, layout, and editing. Because it's a monthly product. The only way to get more time on development, layout, and editing is to make it not a monthly product.
If it were NOT a monthly product, we could make the adventure any length we wanted by adjusting how much sooner we got the manuscript in from the author.
Thank you for your answer and your kindness to the boards.
Given the issues that you cite, the only suggestion I can think of is perhaps to do what Mr. MacDonald suggests below your post, which may have problems, or to have the earlier deadline combined with two developers on each path, so each could alternate adventures and speed things up- which you already dealt with through your discussion of a "unified vision", which is important. That solution would only require one more employee, I think- an extra developer.
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If that cannot be done, I would just reiterate my suggestion that the "special" articles focus less on Deities and more on new rules, gazeteers, or other things that can be put into other adventures that have little or nothing to do with Golarion. I personally enjoy new rules the most, then gazeteers, monsters, then finally deities.
Additionally, by cutting the pages that I suggest above, you could perhaps add more discussion of other directions to take the adventure, or small plot hooks-- nothing as elaborate as the side treks that you mentioned which failed, but plot hooks like the ones on the inset of Kingmaker, or that you put for "continuing the adventure" on the final adventures of most of your paths, or short extra fluff explanations for NPCs-- I find those very interesting. I also very much enjoyed the editors note that was written before the second Kingmaker adventure. It added a lot to my game.
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Creative Director
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After about 40 volumes (and three dozen of Dungeon magazine before that) I am actually quite comfortable with where the Adventure Path is at right now. You can't spend 7 years of your life working on ANYthing without getting a pretty solid feel for it. And I'm pretty dang convinced that where the AP is at right now is solid enough. I'm not going to increase the size of the adventures, even if there were some magical way to get more time to work on them (and the suggestion Jeremy has above does indeed border on the "magical," since creating an entire new staff to handle parallel development of an AP would require a LOT of hocus-pocus, and in the end I'm still not sure all of that would give us more than a month to work on a single adventure; we'd just have TWO 50 page adventures a month rather than one).
They're doing VERY well. Until they stop bringing in phenominal loads of money, I'm not really all that interested in changing things up.
Once they DO stop doing so well, that's when customer feedback regarding dramatic changes to the content of the AP line will become invaluable.
And the deity articles aren't going anywhere. I can't think of much more annoying or depressing than presenting 70% of the pantheon in this manner and then calling it quits before we get to the last six.
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After about 40 volumes (and three dozen of Dungeon magazine before that) I am actually quite comfortable with where the Adventure Path is at right now. You can't spend 7 years of your life working on ANYthing without getting a pretty solid feel for it. And I'm pretty dang convinced that where the AP is at right now is solid enough. I'm not going to increase the size of the adventures, even if there were some magical way to get more time to work on them (and the suggestion Jeremy has above does indeed border on the "magical," since creating an entire new staff to handle parallel development of an AP would require a LOT of hocus-pocus, and in the end I'm still not sure all of that would give us more than a month to work on a single adventure; we'd just have TWO 50 page adventures a month rather than one).
They're doing VERY well. Until they stop bringing in phenominal loads of money, I'm not really all that interested in changing things up.
Once they DO stop doing so well, that's when customer feedback regarding dramatic changes to the content of the AP line will become invaluable.
And the deity articles aren't going anywhere. I can't think of much more annoying or depressing than presenting 70% of the pantheon in this manner and then calling it quits before we get to the last six.
+1. Looking forward to a Worldwound AP!
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A stab means, amongst other, criticsim. In a hindsight, I should have phrased it "take a stab", but hey, English isn't my first (or even second) language.I don't call for violence against Paizo staff members (and considering the amount of subscriptions I have and 5-star reviews I gave out, that would be somewhat counter-productive).
Alright man, my apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.
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Alright man, my apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.
A stab means, amongst other, criticsim. In a hindsight, I should have phrased it "take a stab", but hey, English isn't my first (or even second) language.I don't call for violence against Paizo staff members (and considering the amount of subscriptions I have and 5-star reviews I gave out, that would be somewhat counter-productive).
It's cool. We all love Paizo, it's just a different flavor of love every time :)
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It's cool. We all love Paizo, it's just a different flavor of love every time :)Alright man, my apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.
A stab means, amongst other, criticsim. In a hindsight, I should have phrased it "take a stab", but hey, English isn't my first (or even second) language.I don't call for violence against Paizo staff members (and considering the amount of subscriptions I have and 5-star reviews I gave out, that would be somewhat counter-productive).
Sometimes its a scary type of love ...
And the deity articles aren't going anywhere. I can't think of much more annoying or depressing than presenting 70% of the pantheon in this manner and then calling it quits before we get to the last six.
I, for one, hope you won't stop once you finish the last six either. All the minor deities, and deities from the elf, dragon, etc pantheons also deserve a write-up :)
And the deity articles aren't going anywhere. I can't think of much more annoying or depressing than presenting 70% of the pantheon in this manner and then calling it quits before we get to the last six.
Just to chime in: I've considered skipping an AP due to the fact that we've been playing Second Darkness for more than 18 months and are only halfway through, and my shelf just keeps getting fuller and fuller of adventures. But I've never done it because I don't want to miss one of SKR's fantastic deity articles. It annoys me to play a cleric of one of the as-yet-unarticled deities because I know there's going to be so much more to mold and inspire my character once the article is available to flesh out the bare bones of Gods & Magic.
Just to chime in: I've considered skipping an AP due to the fact that we've been playing Second Darkness for more than 18 months and are only halfway through, and my shelf just keeps getting fuller and fuller of adventures. But I've never done it because I don't want to miss one of SKR's fantastic deity articles. It annoys me to play a cleric of one of the as-yet-unarticled deities because I know there's going to be so much more to mold and inspire my character once the article is available to flesh out the bare bones of Gods & Magic.
Wow. That's... not very long. I'm still playing my Rise of the Runelords campaign. Part way through the 5th book of 6.
That's with on average 7 hours of play per week. Just don't ask how many character deaths.
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Creative Director
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Well having written Adventures both alone and with others the fact that they just pick one person to do it is still kinda dumb if you are looking at making that person work to hard. Two or three people working jointly on the same project could (I know from experience) do one heck of a job making a good adventure (of course if they don't work well together it would increase work load)and that would cut down on work load while increasing Adventure content. I am not agreeing or disagreeing on the usefulness of the extra stuff in the Pathfinder series because I only run a couple of the early ones from Dungeon Like Cauldron Shackled city and the other one that came out afterward.
Writing an adventure for a home game is VASTLY different than writing one for publication. And again, it's not the WRITING that is the "bottleneck" here, but the act of development. I've published MANY adventures over the past 7 years by pairs or teams of writers. Heck, the adventure in the upcoming Pathfinder #39 has THREE authors on it.
This doesn't change the fact that there still needs to be ONE developer doing a full pass on the adventure. In fact, when you have multiple writers, it means that the necessity of having a single developer take a pass on the adventure is MUCH more important, so that the adventure itself makes sense and reads logically. It's certainly possible for one of the writers of such an adventure to serve as the developer... but that doesn't magically create extra time for development. In other words, multiple authors does not reduce the time required for development, and in fact it often INCREASES the time required for this crucial step.
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...good stuff...
I want to just take a moment to say again how awesome Paizo is as a company. It's so interesting to be able to talk about your product, offer suggestions and feedback, and then actually have someone come on and explain reasons and processes behind your decisions. You don't owe us that - but you take the time out to explain it anyway. I really enjoy learning about this stuff, and I appreciate the time and attention to detail you put into not only your products, but your customer interactions.
I'm one that tends to not read the fiction - though sometimes I do. But I find the adventure paths excellent products, full of good ideas, adventures, backgrounds, monsters, art...and I'm amazed at the variety of information and formats you can put into a cohesive product. Even while things aren't "my perfect product", I am very happy with it, and want your continued success - thus I would say it's good you're sticking with the tried and true format.
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Chief Technical Officer
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...That solution would only require one more employee, I think- an extra developer.
Well, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't—as I've said before, adventures take more editing time than most other content, and since we generally have multiple editors taking passes, you're taking about adding many more editorial hours, and our editors are already just as busy as our developers. Further, additional adventure material would also require more cartography, which—even though we do that out-of-house—is still a finite resource, and one that's harder to fulfill than regular art, which is usually what we'd be using to illustrate the non-adventure pages. (And since we like all the maps in an adventure to have the same feel, we're really talking about asking one cartographer to do more work each month, which—depending on the cartographer—may not even be possible.)
However, for the sake of discussion, let's go ahead and say that we *could* increase the adventure content of an AP volume significantly by simply hiring one extra developer. Obviously, that person comes with an annual salary, and then there are benefits on top of that, which are not inconsequential (especially if that developer has a family). Then there are additional equipment needs—a phone, a desk, a computer, pens, etc. And, of course, people require management, and that takes time and effort, and also causes an increase in bureaucracy—managers have to spend more time managing and less time "doing" stuff. Even the finance guys have to spend more time doing payroll, insurance, 401(k), vacation time, etc. (Some of this might seem nominal, but that's still not the same as "free"—especially if you're the one who has to do it.)
So at the end of the day, when you're talking about adding even one person, you're still talking about cumulative annual costs in the high tens of thousands of dollars, minimum. Which means we'd need to increase sales by thousands of units annually just to cover those costs. I just don't see this change doing that.
Quite the contrary, actually. One of the most common reasons cited for subscription cancellations is that people have more adventure material than they can use, and adding more adventure content will just drive those people away *faster*. Sure, there are some folks that would be attracted by more adventure, but I'm pretty confident that we'd see a smaller number gained than lost.
So, bottom line, even if we could do it with just one person—which we can't—I'm certain it would cost us more, in dollars and in subscribers, than it would gain.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One thing I don't think I've seen anyone mention about the supplementary material (it's a long thread, so I may have overlooked it), is the value it serves to draw in new AP only customers into the world of Golarion. Get someone hooked on the gazeteers and diety articles, and then they might decide to start buying PF Companions or PF Campaign setting products. Get someone hooked on the fiction, and they might start buying PF Tales (now that the product line is out), etc.
While those of us on the boards are very familiar with all of these lines, and many of us buy or subscribe to them, we're the tip of the iceberg. There's lots more customers who get started with the AP and many of them get more involved with other product lines because of the articles that entice them to want more. It's like built in advertising.
While the OP uses their own homebrew setting, and might not be one of those who wants more about Golarion, there's other customers who do. I'm guessing with their direct sales and subscriptions, Paizo has some pretty good data on adoption rates from one product line to another. If they show lots of people start with the AP and then migrate to other lines, it would be foolish of them to drop the introduction to those lines in the form of the articles.
The articles also serve as a proving ground for new rules. The stuff from Kingmaker could wind up in some future product, just like haunts and chase mechanics from the first few APs were in the Game Mastery Guide. Sure those rules were in the main adventure when originally presented, but they could have been in support articles like in KM.
One thing I don't think I've seen anyone mention about the supplementary material (it's a long thread, so I may have overlooked it), is the value it serves to draw in new AP only customers into the world of Golarion. Get someone hooked on the gazeteers and diety articles, and then they might decide to start buying PF Companions or PF Campaign setting products. Get someone hooked on the fiction, and they might start buying PF Tales (now that the product line is out), etc.
While those of us on the boards are very familiar with all of these lines, and many of us buy or subscribe to them, we're the tip of the iceberg. There's lots more customers who get started with the AP and many of them get more involved with other product lines because of the articles that entice them to want more. It's like built in advertising.
This was me - I never really bought much D&D stuff. Picked up the Shackled City Hardcover, saw they had another adventure path and picked that up too - them pretty soon subscribed to every product line except the cards. If the AP was solely adventure it's unlikely I would have bought into Golarion as heavily as I have.
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I like the basic structure of the current Adv Paths, though I do wish a compilation book (of the whole path) was released afterwards. At college we can burn through a chapter in less than 2 weeks; leaving us high and dry on the latest paths; but If I could have an entire older path in one book it would make planning alot easier (and a bit easier on my college level bank balance.)
I like the basic structure of the current Adv Paths, though I do wish a compilation book (of the whole path) was released afterwards. At college we can burn through a chapter in less than 2 weeks; leaving us high and dry on the latest paths; but If I could have an entire older path in one book it would make planning alot easier (and a bit easier on my college level bank balance.)
Reason they don't do this (as explained a while back on the boards): Many people would immediately drop their subscriptions waiting for the compilation; Paizo's income (based on monthly subscription payments to hold steady) drops; Paizo can't stay in business to release the compilation because everyone's waiting on the compilation instead of buying monthly installments.
I like the basic structure of the current Adv Paths, though I do wish a compilation book (of the whole path) was released afterwards. At college we can burn through a chapter in less than 2 weeks; leaving us high and dry on the latest paths; but If I could have an entire older path in one book it would make planning alot easier (and a bit easier on my college level bank balance.)
I am obviously jealous of the time you have to play- have you played all the AP's?- I would think buying 6 as pdf's & printing them out would solve your problem (or Shackled city if you want a book)
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I'll first say I like the current formula and how it balances cost, frequency, crunch and fluff. Don't change a thing (besides dropping iconics).
Some things I think about after reading this thread:
1. Might be fun to do a 6-volume AP that only spans 10 levels, or 6 levels even. This gives a higher density of adventuring per character level, and could be some of what folks are seeking. Development cost would be the same for this interpretation of a "high density AP". For some reason I think I'd greatly anticipate this one since it would be something different besides plot/locale variants (i.e. like Kingmaker was different with kingdom building and sandbox gaming, this one says to use the "slow" or a new "super-slow" advancement track).
.. or ..
2. Another developer added to the team could work on "AP Extended Edition" installments, released twice a year. These would have a better name like the "Kingmaker Gamemaster Guide". These could be 6 chapters, with each chapter focused on extended material that could be added to the given AP - more encounters, more maps, more NPCs, more tables, more player hand-outs. For those seeking 15% "more adventure stuff" this one $19.99 purchase effectively increases each of the prior 6 APs "stuff". Granted, it would come out at least 2 months after the AP ships, but the "collector-itis" of many Paizo fans would force wallets open to ensure they had the "complete AP" ready when it came time to running it. There's an evidence of demand here on the forums, as folks trade ideas on what old modules to use to expand the AP. I'd wager some of this material already exists in Paizo and just needs clean-up!
I know the card decks, minis, and map folios are in this same vein - but something about me cares less about secondary copies of maps or item cards as missing out on critical NPC or location "canon".
I'll first say I like the current formula and how it balances cost, frequency, crunch and fluff. Don't change a thing (besides dropping iconics).
Some things I think about after reading this thread:
1. Might be fun to do a 6-volume AP that only spans 10 levels, or 6 levels even. This gives a higher density of adventuring per character level, and could be some of what folks are seeking. Development cost would be the same for this interpretation of a "high density AP". For some reason I think I'd greatly anticipate this one since it would be something different besides plot/locale variants (i.e. like Kingmaker was different with kingdom building and sandbox gaming, this one says to use the "slow" or a new "super-slow" advancement track).
.. or ..
2. Another developer added to the team could work on "AP Extended Edition" installments, released twice a year. These would have a better name like the "Kingmaker Gamemaster Guide". These could be 6 chapters, with each chapter focused on extended material that could be added to the given AP - more encounters, more maps, more NPCs, more tables, more player hand-outs. For those seeking 15% "more adventure stuff" this one $19.99 purchase effectively increases each of the prior 6 APs "stuff". Granted, it would come out at least 2 months after the AP ships, but the "collector-itis" of many Paizo fans would force wallets open to ensure they had the "complete AP" ready when it came time to running it. There's an evidence of demand here on the forums, as folks trade ideas on what old modules to use to expand the AP. I'd wager some of this material already exists in Paizo and just needs clean-up!
I know the card decks, minis, and map folios are in this same vein - but something about me cares less about secondary copies of maps or item cards as missing out on critical NPC or location "canon".
2. Yes
1. No. I like seeing my characters grow, and playing for 6 months to only get to level 10, or even worse 6 would not work for me and many others.
If a DM wants less leveling he could take out certain combats, and to deal with the fact that the party is not at the correct level to challenge things in the next book he could use monsters from the bestiary that are easier to deal with. I think an NPC book was released recently also. That way he wont have to manually rebuild every monster.
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1. No. I like seeing my characters grow, and playing for 6 months to only get to level 10, or even worse 6 would not work for me and many others.
If a DM wants less leveling he could take out certain combats, and to deal with the fact that the party is not at the correct level to challenge things in the next book he could use monsters from the bestiary that are easier to deal with. I think an NPC book was released recently also. That way he wont have to manually rebuild every monster.
When I played 2E we gained one or two levels a year and we liked it! "New fangled abilities" weren't on our radar, we played with what he had and had fun goldernit!.
3E/Pathfinder never really supported this playstyle nearly as well as 2E did, and I can see why it would rub people the wrong way, even though I think there is a market that would enjoy it. Thing is, James has stated on multiple occasions that they are not going to be changing their AP formula; the formula works and makes them butt-tons of money.
Now adding addendum modules/GM guides to extend an AP? That could be an interesting product line.
1. No. I like seeing my characters grow, and playing for 6 months to only get to level 10, or even worse 6 would not work for me and many others.
If a DM wants less leveling he could take out certain combats, and to deal with the fact that the party is not at the correct level to challenge things in the next book he could use monsters from the bestiary that are easier to deal with. I think an NPC book was released recently also. That way he wont have to manually rebuild every monster.When I played 2E we gained one or two levels a year and we liked it! "New fangled abilities" weren't on our radar, we played with what he had and had fun goldernit!.
3E/Pathfinder never really supported this playstyle nearly as well as 2E did, and I can see why it would rub people the wrong way, even though I think there is a market that would enjoy it. Thing is, James has stated on multiple occasions that they are not going to be changing their AP formula; the formula works and makes them b~!*-tons of money.
Now adding addendum modules/GM guides to extend an AP? That could be an interesting product line.
Wow. If only I had the time to take one character to 10th each YEAR. Characters should grow in more than level, says I.
1. No. I like seeing my characters grow, and playing for 6 months to only get to level 10, or even worse 6 would not work for me and many others.
If a DM wants less leveling he could take out certain combats, and to deal with the fact that the party is not at the correct level to challenge things in the next book he could use monsters from the bestiary that are easier to deal with. I think an NPC book was released recently also. That way he wont have to manually rebuild every monster.
I am doing the Kingmaker AP, and its our group's first published adventure. Even on medium progression, it levels faster than we are used to. I really like the idea of a 8-10 level AP, though I would not recommend 6. You can tell a complete story without becoming a demigod.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I myself enjoy a level progression slower than that presented in the APs, both as a player and GM.
It seems that a lot of 3rd Edition / Pathfinder players end up with characters who are continually learning how to use their powers and abilities, rather than mastering them through several adventures at each level. It seems that a lot of players go through a character in a year of play, rather than keeping with the same PC for years. (Would anybody today care about Robilar or Mordenkainen, I wonder, if they'd burned through their entire adventuring careers in 6 or 9 months?)
That seems to be a design feature of 3rd Edition.
Once there are a few APs under Paizo's belt, it would be nice to have one that presumes the slow level advancement (perhaps only taking the PCs to 8th or 10th Level) and another that presumes the fast level advancement.
I myself enjoy a level progression slower than that presented in the APs, both as a player and GM.
It seems that a lot of 3rd Edition / Pathfinder players end up with characters who are continually learning how to use their powers and abilities, rather than mastering them through several adventures at each level. It seems that a lot of players go through a character in a year of play, rather than keeping with the same PC for years. (Would anybody today care about Robilar or Mordenkainen, I wonder, if they'd burned through their entire adventuring careers in 6 or 9 months?)
That seems to be a design feature of 3rd Edition.
Once there are a few APs under Paizo's belt, it would be nice to have one that presumes the slow level advancement (perhaps only taking the PCs to 8th or 10th Level) and another that presumes the fast level advancement.
Who are these "lots"!? And what the hell are they doin' on MY LAWN!?
Hello and thank you again for your reply.
I was talking about two different, but related ideas, and then a third idea.
(The FIRST Idea is just my acknowledgment and understanding of your response since you took the time to explain things in detail. The SECOND Idea is presented in a clear format. The THIRD idea is restating something to make sure the comment gets across.)
FIRST
-The First idea, eliminating the 6 fiction pages+1 to 2 ad pages and moving those to AP pages was responded to by Mr. Wertz and Mr. Jacobs as basically stating that (A. adding 8 pages would require another developer.) I figure that Paizo knows its own business, so I take them at their word for that and for the subsequent conclusion (B. The economics of adding another developer are outweighed by other considerations at this time).
-I hope, however, that any potential other developer could be used on additional office tasks by increasing production and output to justify the addition of an extra salary; but I certainly understand that Paizo does not believe it is appropriate to take on another employee at this time.
SECOND
However, my second suggestion was: Cut 1 to 2 of the ad pages in the back and replace that with some type of content-- like an "expanding the adventure" sidebar or an extra 1 page of adventure. AND to continue putting information that is useful for play on the interior and exterior inset of the covers. Kingmaker's use of that space was far superior to Serpent's Skull's use of that space and the same amount of 'art' it seems was produced for both. I greatly enjoy the work you did for KM.
THIRD
-My third idea, re: less focus on Deity articles and more on Gazeteers, city district, or new Rules, was rejected by Mr. Jacobs.
-Please note that the focus on articles that aren't reusable outside of Golarion is one reason I dropped my subscription after Kingmaker. I considered re-subscribing since I enjoy reading Paizo's adventures (and I very much enjoy reading the 2 page editorials).
-But considering that the 'side' articles did not appeal to me (short story, deities, monsters), combined with the other concerns noted above- the scales tipped to unsubscribe. Now, I am not a core subscriber for paizo, but I always buy a few books of yours each year and I did subscribe for Kingmaker. Just please note this for consideration, given your comments on why people drop their AP path subscription-
"They're doing VERY well. Until they stop bringing in phenomenal loads of money, I'm not really all that interested in changing things up.
"Once they DO stop doing so well, that's when customer feedback regarding dramatic changes to the content of the AP line will become invaluable."
"Quite the contrary, actually. One of the most common reasons cited for subscription cancellations is that people have more adventure material than they can use, and adding more adventure content will just drive those people away *faster*. Sure, there are some folks that would be attracted by more adventure, but I'm pretty confident that we'd see a smaller number gained than lost."
-My cancellation was not a case of me being "full up", it was a case of being dissatisfied with the content mix for Serpent's Skull; until the KM adventure path, I only played home-created games, but I previously subscribed to Dungeon. I noted on my paizo messageboard post dropping the subscription that I was "fine with Kingmaker", but what I did not note is that I would have continued my subscription if I felt I would be happy with most of the content in future issues- I actually am VERY interested in Serpent Skull's competitive rules with the different organizations seeking treasure-- but the cost of the AP, combined with the dubious value of the side articles turns me off, since given the focus on Deities articles (2 of 6) I would likely only read or use the pages dedicated to the AP. I believe SS is worth 12-14 dollars to me unseen given that I would only read the AP pages for certain. I realize the cost will not change, so my suggestion for future APs is merely based on content.
-Therefore, I no longer subscribe, but I will buy individual issues at a store if the content appeals to me.
CONCLUSION
Thank you again for addressing my post, and I hope that my post helps you in the future. I post because I want Paizo to succeed. There is a possibility that I am the only one with these concerns, but I figure that for each person who posts an idea, at least a few who do not post hold similar opinions and some who do not post are more likely to be "former subscribers" than those who do post, because posting criticism is not a happy thing to do, especially when you are generally pleased with a product :(. Good luck and thank you!
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Chief Technical Officer
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I post because I want Paizo to succeed. There is a possibility that I am the only one with these concerns, but I figure that for each person who posts an idea, at least a few who do not post hold similar opinions and some who do not post are more likely to be "former subscribers" than those who do post, because posting criticism is not a happy thing to do, especially when you are generally pleased with a product :(. Good luck and thank you!
No worries—we do note and appreciate this sort of feedback; it's valuable to us even if it doesn't necessarily result in immediate changes to our products.
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I myself enjoy a level progression slower than that presented in the APs, both as a player and GM.
It seems that a lot of 3rd Edition / Pathfinder players end up with characters who are continually learning how to use their powers and abilities, rather than mastering them through several adventures at each level. It seems that a lot of players go through a character in a year of play, rather than keeping with the same PC for years. (Would anybody today care about Robilar or Mordenkainen, I wonder, if they'd burned through their entire adventuring careers in 6 or 9 months?)
That seems to be a design feature of 3rd Edition.
Once there are a few APs under Paizo's belt, it would be nice to have one that presumes the slow level advancement (perhaps only taking the PCs to 8th or 10th Level) and another that presumes the fast level advancement.
I would also enjoy a slower paced adventure. Legacy of fire seems to be a bit slower paced overall but still pretty fast. A level 1-10 adventure would be great IMO. That said, there was some negative feedback when Paizo said originally Legacy of Fire was going to be 1-12th so I expect there would be similar complaints at shorter ones.
It would be REALLY nice if some APs were fast and went the full 18-20 levels and some were slow going only 10-12 levels so we could pick an AP based on pacing.
I'm planning on running my next AP at a slower pace and adding in supplemental encounters to spread things out a bit. In fact I'm going to start slowing our current group down for a bit.
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Creative Director
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I would also enjoy a slower paced adventure. Legacy of fire seems to be a bit slower paced overall but still pretty fast. A level 1-10 adventure would be great IMO. That said, there was some negative feedback when Paizo said originally Legacy of Fire was going to be 1-12th so I expect there would be similar complaints at shorter ones.
It would be REALLY nice if some APs were fast and went the full 18-20 levels and some were slow going only 10-12 levels so we could pick an AP based on pacing.
I'm planning on running my next AP at a slower pace and adding in supplemental encounters to spread things out a bit. In fact I'm going to start slowing our current group down for a bit.
Council of Thieves only goes up to about 13th or 14th level. We took a fair amount of complaints about that, and judging from overall reviews, the AP is certainly not the most popular (or even in the top 3)... so we're a bit hesitant to do more "lower level APs" in the immediate future. I'm sure we'll try one again someday though.
<slightly-off-track>
Wow. This is why I believe Paizo are destined for great things. No publisher I've had dealings with have gone into such great detail and length to explain how some things are. To my mind it's very interesting to see how these things work.
Thanks for taking the time to pop in and set a few things straight. It speaks a great deal about the maturity of a company.
/<slightly-off-track>
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Council of Thieves only goes up to about 13th or 14th level. We took a fair amount of complaints about that, and judging from overall reviews, the AP is certainly not the most popular (or even in the top 3)... so we're a bit hesitant to do more "lower level APs" in the immediate future. I'm sure we'll try one again someday though.I would also enjoy a slower paced adventure. Legacy of fire seems to be a bit slower paced overall but still pretty fast. A level 1-10 adventure would be great IMO. That said, there was some negative feedback when Paizo said originally Legacy of Fire was going to be 1-12th so I expect there would be similar complaints at shorter ones.
It would be REALLY nice if some APs were fast and went the full 18-20 levels and some were slow going only 10-12 levels so we could pick an AP based on pacing.
I'm planning on running my next AP at a slower pace and adding in supplemental encounters to spread things out a bit. In fact I'm going to start slowing our current group down for a bit.
CoT didn't excite me much but it wasn't due to pacing. I'll have to take at it again.
I dropped my subscription at the end of Kingmaker. I wanted to explain why:
I would like more "Adventure Path" in my adventure paths. I like the forward from the editor, but I'd rather see 1 page than 2 pages. I don't like the 6 pages of fiction, and I don't like the 6+ pages of gazeteer style information (information about gods or lands), and I am not terribly fond of the 2-3 pages of advertising.
If you scrapped the gazeteer stuff and the fiction, I would be very happy and feel that I was getting my moneys worth... as it is, I sort of feel like 20% of my purchase is completely wasted.
Where I am coming from: I purchased the entire 2nd darkness path at my FLGS, and I purchased Kingmaker via subscription. I had hoped that during the time between 2nd Darkness and Kingmaker that the format may have changed a bit to cut down on the gazeteer and fiction, but sadly it was not the case.
I know some people really like the fiction and gazeteer style substance, but those people are also probably subscribing to other lines of your products... it seems out of place in an adventure path to have pure world-building information.
I subscribe to the APs for stuff you would like to see taken out. The adventure I might play but really I like the gazetteer information, bestiary, and the fiction. The adventures I might use or I might not. I might use them for inspiration.
As well I've always found the gazetteer style substance as relevant to the adventure. With it you get a better understanding of setting of the AP. Very useful.
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Council of Thieves only goes up to about 13th or 14th level. We took a fair amount of complaints about that, and judging from overall reviews, the AP is certainly not the most popular (or even in the top 3)... so we're a bit hesitant to do more "lower level APs" in the immediate future. I'm sure we'll try one again someday though.I would also enjoy a slower paced adventure. Legacy of fire seems to be a bit slower paced overall but still pretty fast. A level 1-10 adventure would be great IMO. That said, there was some negative feedback when Paizo said originally Legacy of Fire was going to be 1-12th so I expect there would be similar complaints at shorter ones.
It would be REALLY nice if some APs were fast and went the full 18-20 levels and some were slow going only 10-12 levels so we could pick an AP based on pacing.
I'm planning on running my next AP at a slower pace and adding in supplemental encounters to spread things out a bit. In fact I'm going to start slowing our current group down for a bit.
Out of curiosity, what would be the top 3?
At this point I'm guessing:
1) Rise of the Runelords
2) Kingmaker
3) Curse of the Crimson Throne (or maybe Legacy of Fire)
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From what I can tell, the top three are Runelords, Crimson Throne, and Kingmaker.Out of curiosity, what would be the top 3?
I would agree with that. Right now for me the break down is in order.
Great AP's
Rise of the Runelords
Curse of the Crimson Throne
Kingmaker
Good AP's
Legacy of Fire
Council of Thieves
Ok AP's
Second Darkness
Just my own personal opinions, take the AP's as a whole.