What about the Rogues other 9 skills? And I vehemently disagree with your point allocations, Drop Con and Wis to 12, leave STR @ 10, and add more INT.
Then have the Eido go get a mug of beer :)
I'd like to see the rule where pets aren't allowed to do as much damage as melee characters. Everybody is basing this OP argument on comparisons to the Barbarian or Fighter. Which is highly subjective. Most players obviously don't focus on Min/Max. Just because you got some people releasing out these "insane" builds of the Eidolon doesn't mean it is broken. I've seen "insane" builds for practically every class, but they aren't broken either.
What I see here is that the people who think the Summoner is OP haven't' even played one. They read the forum here or some other write up on the internet and then make their judgment then and there. While the people who have played or are playing the summoner <you can count my hand raised too> don't think that the Eidolon is anymore powerful than you can make other characters.
My current Eidolon got owned by a reach weapon the other day. Two hits and he is down because he has low HP and was being blocked by other mooks. Just because there are builds out there that put out a lot of damage doesn't mean it is OP. The game is about a lot more than just damage output.
What about the Rogues other 9 skills? And I vehemently disagree with your point allocations, Drop Con and Wis to 12, leave STR @ 10, and add more INT.
Then have the Eido go get a mug of beer :)
I stand by the power creep. 1st there is also Summoners Skills (= Since Rosue gets 8+ Int, Summoner Gets 2+ Int, the rogue has only 6 skills the eidolon must compeat in). 2nd the summoner and the eidolon can concentrate on the different stats, so they have better stats , if wishing so. 3rd Eidolon can later take +2 int and instantly gain one max ranked skill, if it wishes (more and more times as levels go up). Of course also take skilled to it. 4th Eidolon can later give some of its Skilled evolutions to summoner, if summoner has better stats. 5th if Rogue starts playing with Skill focuses, the Summoner and Eidolon can both start taking those.
I stand by the power creep. 1st there is also Summoners Skills (= Since Rosue gets 8+ Int, Summoner Gets 2+ Int, the rogue has only 6 skills the eidolon must compeat in). 2nd the summoner and the eidolon can concentrate on the different stats, so they have better stats , if wishing so. 3rd Eidolon can later take +2 int and instantly gain one max ranked skill, if it wishes (more and more times as levels go up). Of course also take skilled to it. 4th Eidolon can later give some of its Skilled evolutions to summoner, if summoner has better stats. 5th if Rogue starts playing with Skill focuses, the Summoner and Eidolon can both start taking those.What about the Rogues other 9 skills? And I vehemently disagree with your point allocations, Drop Con and Wis to 12, leave STR @ 10, and add more INT.
Then have the Eido go get a mug of beer :)
I've seen rogues that have as high a stealth/perception check of mid 20s at low levels like that. Double that of the Eidolon. And you also realize that in your example that making the Eidolon marginally better at scouting also sacrificed everything else he can do. He's good at scouting, and nothing else.
I've seen rogues that have as high a stealth/perception check of mid 20s at low levels like that. Double that of the Eidolon.
The eidolon was level 1. Both Stealth and Perception was 12. So you are claiming Rogue with Stealth & Perception 24 1st level? Must be house ruled...
And you also realize that in your example that making the Eidolon marginally better at scouting also sacrificed everything else he can do. He's good at scouting, and nothing else.
It still has Str 16, Bab 1, 2 attacks and a feat to spend, so its not useless in a combat. Well it has low HPs, but if enemies kill it , it has sucked a couple of attacks from the rest of the group. And you can summon it again next day.
I've seen rogues that have as high a stealth/perception check of mid 20s at low levels like that. Double that of the Eidolon. And you also realize that in your example that making the Eidolon marginally better at scouting also sacrificed everything else he can do. He's good at scouting, and nothing else.
Yup, while Roger the Rogue is happily pilfering pockets, reading lost tomes, activating ancient magic items, and gleefully slipping damasked blades between the ribs of his enemies. I'm planning a sumonner right now, and I jut don't see the issue for actual gameplay, which board builds do not adequately address, IMO.
One reason I don't read the DPR threads.
My assumptions have always been thus :
If you are comparing two builds for melee, throw out anything that isn't able to be used all the time. So spells that have any duration less than 24 hours you toss. Why? Because you can always be surprised, or run out of resources that can be used up. Another reason is that it becomes extremely complex, and most broken builds of any class assume at least a moderate amount of magic.
I'll sit down and make an 11th level summoner and the best 11th level fighter I can make today. I'll not apply spells (as those are situational), and only count things you can use when you didn't have time to prepare. I'll try to maximize them for damage, but not at the expense of making either a glass cannon (so no spending 75% of their money on 2 items, for example).
Why use 11th? Because 11th is where a fighter get's his 3rd attack, so it's a much fairer comparison than 10th vs 10th. I get to set the rules for it since I'm making it. ;)
LOL
I suck at min/maxing. My maxed out two-weapon fighter averaged about 70pts per round, and my maxed out eidelon averaged about 100pts. :)
LOLI suck at min/maxing. My maxed out two-weapon fighter averaged about 70pts per round, and my maxed out eidelon averaged about 100pts. :)
That is actually quite good, if not buffed. Did the summoner also attack? Because he can be also quite good (3/4 BAB). Anyway the eidolons power creep is almost unavoidable. As I said the eidolon will have more evolutions + feats than fighter feats. Evolutions are generally stronger (with exceptions like Fast Heal and Breath Weapon). When you go higher and higher levels eidolons power just increases. If you try to divert your evolutions from attacks, you just create a monster in other aspects (as +8 to a skill is just ridicilous as a feat). In fact if you try to min large biped eidolon, you'll propably reach maxed melee fighters dmg by the level 10 (with about the same gear). So as level 11 you could be asking where I put these 3 evolution points I still have, so I wouldn't be such a combat monster? +2 int and skilled Use Magic Device? Dang, eidolon just got the skill to use every wand it can get...
Plus, I'm not talking about hideous muchkinism here. Eidolon with 5 attacks is going to get more from bards song than a fighter. There is no avoiding it. Eidolon has a great str, so the dmg is going to go eventually up... again you can't avoid it (except by being small, but that is another kind of powerplay) as increases to str and dex are automatic.
Also if get to it, an eidolon can be a real powermuchking by rules (I would assume GM to nerf these). For example since summoner can be very good at use magic device (remember, he/she can get +8 from eidolon also), he could read a scroll of Animal Growth. As the scroll activates just as you had cast a spell, the summoner would be able to use Share Spells and do it on eidolon. That is +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Natural Armor all over agian. Of course enemy can't cast Hold Person, Calm Animal or similar to eidolon as it only counts as humanoid (assuming basic races) for summoner.
I mean that the quadrupled eidolon I made maked such a horrible dmg. But if you would assume, he wouldn't have been buffed up/optimized ... maybe 9 less attack so 1/2 attacks would hit. That makes it even with powermuchkin Fighter Archer, witch also does about 118 dmg. It would also mean that the summoner could do many things (like Black Tentacles of win the fight... witch is 3rd level for summoners lol).
In fact the other thing about summoners is that they get good spells at lower spell slots than for example wizard. Well what could that do? So summoner gets Black Tentacles at level 7, wizard gets Black Tentacles at level 7. So summoner gets Haste at level 4, wizard gets Haste at level 5. Big deal... It also means summoners Wand of Haste costs 2x4x750=6000 vs wizards 3x5x750=10750. Also Ring of Wizardry gets more powerful spells to summoner than to wizard.
That is actually quite good, if not buffed. Did the summoner also attack? Because he can be also quite good (3/4 BAB). Anyway the eidolons power creep is almost unavoidable. As I said the eidolon will have more evolutions + feats than fighter feats. Evolutions are generally stronger (with exceptions like Fast Heal and Breath Weapon). When you go higher and higher levels eidolons power just increases. If you try to divert your evolutions from attacks, you just create a monster in other aspects (as +8 to a skill is just ridicilous as a feat). In fact if you try to min large biped eidolon, you'll propably reach maxed melee fighters dmg by the level 10 (with about the same gear). So as level 11 you could be asking where I put these 3 evolution points I still have, so I wouldn't be such a combat monster? +2 int and skilled Use Magic Device? Dang, eidolon just got the skill to use every wand it can get...
LOLI suck at min/maxing. My maxed out two-weapon fighter averaged about 70pts per round, and my maxed out eidelon averaged about 100pts. :)
I don't think the +8 to a skill is all that much of an issue, since the eidelon can't (easily) get INT bonuses (they're kind of locked at 7, even if you boost their int with evos). I honestly find that kind of sad, as I'd love to see a summoner with the option of a base form that's high int/dex, or high dex/cha so they could make some rogueish eidelons.
No, I built the summoner as a stay in the back type who used archery. He would have added a bit to the eidelon, but I was just trying to compare the eidelon and fighter. I gave both a +4 belt. I built the fighter as a two-weapon warrior archetype, with twin +2 flaming scimitars and improved critical. The eidelon was a tiger-taur with two arms, four legs. Bite, Pounce, Claw(x4), Rend, large mount. :) If I'd added in the summoner with a lance, it would have been nastier. On the other hand, no nastier than a druid with a large tiger and the same builds. Which is sort of how I see the summoner, more as an alternative to the druid, and a medium druid with a lance riding a armored tiger would do about the same damage per round as a summoner and eidelon doing the same thing.
The biggest difference between the two was AC, the fighter had a +3 mithral agile half-plate armor, 18 dex, and +3 dodge from class abilities, and a +2 deflection ring. The eidelon only had a 23 AC (+10 natural armor, +2 dex, +1 imp natural armor feat). The fighter had 28 AC (+9 Armor, +4 Dex, +2 deflection, +3 dodge), and I still had enough money left over to have gotten him a +1 amulet of natural armor if I'd wanted to. HP's were a major difference. Fighter had 98 (10(1st) + (10*5.5)(2nd-11th) + 11(favored class) + 22 (Con)), eidelon had 65 hp((4.5*11) + 8 (Con) + 8 (Toughness feat)).
Touch AC was even worse, obviously.
EDIT: Fighter was wearing Agile breast Plate armor, not half-plate.
I did, however, while building the two-weapon warrior build, realize I can now do my favorite ever with that class. Dual wielding twin bastard swords. :) Granted, can't do it until level 11, but it's still doable. :)
Riku Riekkinen wrote:
As the scroll activates just as you had cast a spell, the summoner would be able to use Share Spells and do it on eidolon.
That don't work no more, share spell says explicitly it has to be from the class spell list now.
Right. Well, that is a thing I would have personally nerfed anyway as I said. Otherwise I'm quite good with chars being in different "power levels". I've played and mastered a game where I've (or a player) been down 8ECL in 3.5 terms. So I feel people shouldn't be complaining about minor differences. I feel character is useless as soon as he/she is more burden in the game than an advantage. Its very very hard to achieve that. And as said before I joined this discussion because people were saying things that are not true (= Fighters doing more damage than summoners). I feel I'm good enough optimizer not to do 100 point mistake.