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Hey, everyone! I would like to humbly ask a small favor of the fine folks on these messageboards.
I've been contemplating a few different generic RPGs in my search for what I could truly and completely call my "Desert Island RPG". So far, while I've considered GURPS (too complicated to explain to a newb), Mutants and Masterminds (same complaint), Chaosium BRP (not enough Genre toolkits/subsystems, missing Mecha and Cyberspace rules), the two that have caught my attention and kept it are True20 from Green Ronin, and Pinnacle's Savage Worlds.
Both of these game systems are "Rules Lighter" (than, say, other d20 games) without being "Rules Light". I like to have *just* enough crunch that there's still a tactics/strategy game in there somewhere, and both systems have a really good selection of genre toolkits and easily-pillaged campaign settings, making it easy to do something like, say, a Space Opera/Anime Mecha/Cyberpunk mashup with Psionics thrown in for good measure.
As far as high fantasy goes, Pathfinder RPG is my system of choice and will remain that way. However, I'm lost as far as finding one RPG that can cover the whole range of Modern and Sci-Fi genres without breaking or scaring away newbs when I try to teach them the system.
My only problem with Savage Worlds at this point is that I feel, after reading the Core materials of both games, that True20 leads by a wide margin in the versatility of the powers sytem. I know the Supers Companion and Necessary Evil make a good set of Supers rules, but as far as building up a good set of powers for Psionic or Magical characters, on the same level of power as a low-mid level 3.5/PF spellcaster, Savage's power selection seems like it's going to be leaving me to do the lion's share of the work if I want characters to be able to do things like read minds, charm people, create illusions, teleport more than a few hundred feet at a time, scry upon distant locations, and other, similar tasks. The powers seem to be weighted towards direct combat powers with short durations, rather than the trickery/intrigue set of powers I'm interested in.
I want to avoid anything more than light house-ruling (coming up for stats for races that don't exist in the core materials, for instance), or else my game will never fly due to hours upon hours of arguments with my rules lawyer, balance-obsessed players (who are smart and pleasant people outside of the fact that they furiously demand consistency and game balance, but so do I to a certain extent).
If anybody has got any good reason to go straight for or stay the heck away from either of those games, or any other games to suggest that are either easy to learn, or have a large enough following that I am likely not to have to teach, it would be greatly appreciated, and thanks for the time you took to read my rambling. ( :
-Andrew
I just ran a Mutants and Masterminds (2nd Ed) campaign as a quick filler for the summer months and as a change of pace from fantasy fare.
While the character creation rules can be somewhat confusing (it wasn't too bad for those in my group that were used to points based systems like Shadowrun) to those used to more streamlined class/race systems, the actual game play was relatively simple.
I found the easiest thing to do for character creation was to *not explain it* ;-)
I just sat down with each player and discussed what type of hero they wanted, and then spent 5 minutes hunting up a build at the appropriate PL on the official message boards. Let them tweak it a bit if they want, but it probably already has the iconic powers and they can just powerstunt the rest. With any point based system I've played, its always chaos to let rookies try and build a character from scratch.
But my main comment is about True20. Isn't it essentially the same system as Mutants and Masterminds, so wouldn't you have the same problems with True20?
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I just ran a Mutants and Masterminds (2nd Ed) campaign as a quick filler for the summer months and as a change of pace from fantasy fare.
While the character creation rules can be somewhat confusing (it wasn't too bad for those in my group that were used to points based systems like Shadowrun) to those used to more streamlined class/race systems, the actual game play was relatively simple.
I found the easiest thing to do for character creation was to *not explain it* ;-)
I just sat down with each player and discussed what type of hero they wanted, and then spent 5 minutes hunting up a build at the appropriate PL on the official message boards. Let them tweak it a bit if they want, but it probably already has the iconic powers and they can just powerstunt the rest. With any point based system I've played, its always chaos to let rookies try and build a character from scratch.
But my main comment is about True20. Isn't it essentially the same system as Mutants and Masterminds, so wouldn't you have the same problems with True20?
True20 is similar, but class based instead of point based. However, the classes are few, and broad in application, and the powers are varied and robust, but still pre-packaged and put on a page-wide table, just like the listings for feats. I assume it would play about as fast as M&M (I've not seen either in play yet), but character creation is much easier because each choice about a 1st level character can be chosen from 20-40 options on a list. Just pick X feats, X skills to start with 4 ranks in, and if you're a caster, you can choose a power in place of a feat. Trades away versatility, but the system is still highly customizeable, and way easier to pick up and play.
I do own rulebooks for both games. M&M is one of the most versatile games I've ever seen, especially after Mecha and Manga and Warriors and Warlocks came out. I could easily use the powers framework for nearly anything. I think I'd have to create my own template list for M&M so new players could choose a character and get to playing - maybe each "class" is a build that has 80-90 percent of its power points spent, leaving the player with just a few options left to pick.
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My only problem with Savage Worlds at this point is that I feel, after reading the Core materials of both games, that True20 leads by a wide margin in the versatility of the powers sytem.
Have you checked out Savage Heroes?
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You could also try the Unisystem from Eden Studios. The All Flesh must be eaten Books aren't necessaryly all about zombies, the rules can be used to create all kinds of adventures and adversaries. Sure, the combats are different then d20 games combats (more deadly, less structured, but with some good "special maneuvers"), but my group happens to like them (I use the rules for Firefly and Nightbane games). Best thing is: you can get a unisystem product for free, the pdf for the Witchcraft game.
The book contains the same basic rules as AfmbE and Conspiracy X, with a more complex magic/powers system.
Hiya.
Here's three to take a look at...
D6 System
-May not fit your idea of "crunchy bits"...it's fast and balanced though, allowing from everything from puppy stats to the SDF-1.
SilCORE
-Can definitly fit your "crunch factor". The drawback is that is doesn't do 'magic' very well. There is the "Tribe8" RPG that uses the base of this system, and it has magic, albeit a fairly 'story-oriented' style.
Cortex
-Similar to the Savage World system, but a bit different (or so I'm told). There are a few RPG genre's out there that use the Savage Worlds system, so it shouldn't be difficult to use 'em.
HERO System
-Pure, unadulterated customization. From ultra-real gritty, to super-heroic space comic-book anime...you can do it here. However, it is NOT for the faint of heart. You pretty much 'build' everything with points, and that can take time, but as long as nobody cheats, you can have one person with a spell-slinger, another with a cyborg marine, and a third with mutant powers...and they'll all be balanced with one another. Definitly fits the 'crunch' factor you may want for combat.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
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Hiya.
Here's three to take a look at...
D6 System
-May not fit your idea of "crunchy bits"...it's fast and balanced though, allowing from everything from puppy stats to the SDF-1.SilCORE
-Can definitly fit your "crunch factor". The drawback is that is doesn't do 'magic' very well. There is the "Tribe8" RPG that uses the base of this system, and it has magic, albeit a fairly 'story-oriented' style.Cortex
-Similar to the Savage World system, but a bit different (or so I'm told). There are a few RPG genre's out there that use the Savage Worlds system, so it shouldn't be difficult to use 'em.HERO System
-Pure, unadulterated customization. From ultra-real gritty, to super-heroic space comic-book anime...you can do it here. However, it is NOT for the faint of heart. You pretty much 'build' everything with points, and that can take time, but as long as nobody cheats, you can have one person with a spell-slinger, another with a cyborg marine, and a third with mutant powers...and they'll all be balanced with one another. Definitly fits the 'crunch' factor you may want for combat.^_^
Paul L. Ming
Are there any official Mecha rules (either Anime style or Battletech style) for D6? I've seen books that cover almost anything else, and I do like both the detail level of d6 and the fact that most of the core materials are now OGL.
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Are there any official Mecha rules (either Anime style or Battletech style) for D6? I've seen books that cover almost anything else, and I do like both the detail level of d6 and the fact that most of the core materials are now OGL.
Not that I'm aware of. You could probably utilize the vehicle rules. Check out the Open D6 Resurrection site to see if someone's created a set.
You will find Savage Worlds' rules for Mecha in the Sci-fi Toolkit.
The toolkit books are really what makes SW shine.
As for Super powers, take a look at Mutant City Blues (Gumshoe ruleset)
Seems what you want for a more thriller/noir/spy game of supers.
I've always liked Big Eyes Small Mouth, but it might be a bit crunch light for what you are looking for.
Hiya.
If mechs are an important part, take a second look at SilCORE by DreamPod 9. They have a tabletop mech war game called "Heavy Gear" that has a pretty detailed background and stuff (or so it seems; I don't play it). But the SilCORE rules and HG fit together more or less seamlessly I'm told. If you want to add in space-fare, you could also look at their "CORE Command" (also using the SilCORE rules), that details the layout of galaxy-spanning space opera...or you could use the "Jovian Chronicles" (again, pretty much the SilCORE rules) if you want a more 'hard-sci-fi' take on space travel and combat (oh, and it has mech's too...).
^_^
Paul L. Ming
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I've always liked Big Eyes Small Mouth, but it might be a bit crunch light for what you are looking for.
BESM is all-but perfect. I just shy away from the idea of handing newbs a point buy system, but I think I'm just going to have to deal with that - if I want freedom to genre-mix, point-buy it is, though d6 does a really good job of marrying point-buy freedom to the simplicity of a class based system that just says "Choose one from column A, two from column B, etc." which is what I liked about True20, too.
BESM d20 might fit the bill, since there are pre-made character classes, mecha and magic rules, and IIRC it's under the OGL, so running a few copies of the SRD off my printer to give to all the players won't get me in legal trouble.
I haven't looked at SilCORE in detail yet. Thanks for the tip, I was not aware of the existence of that game, until now.
I like every rule Savage has except for their powers/arcane bacgrounds rules.
What I'm looking to do is create a Space Opera/Mecha/Martial Arts mashup similar to the Xenosaga (and Xenogears) series of games. True20, Savage, BESM, and D6 each bascially give me every component I want except one...but I have to look at BESM again, I may have missed a few things.
Also, thanks for the info, everybody! If you have anything else to add please keep it coming but I really do appreciate the advice given so far. I <3 the Paizo boards so much.
-Andrew
When I was pitching a Pirate Hero campaign, I had about a dozen premade characters. After the first session, players were free to alter their character or work with me to create a new one from scratch.
I found it is much easier for people to wrap their head around a point buy system when they see some of the things that can be done.
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When I was pitching a Pirate Hero campaign, I had about a dozen premade characters. After the first session, players were free to alter their character or work with me to create a new one from scratch.
I found it is much easier for people to wrap their head around a point buy system when they see some of the things that can be done.
I'm beginning to agree with you and Talion. Some of the best systems are point-buy, and the only way I'll be able to take advantage of the full weight of the awesome of M&M, BESM, and Hero would be to help new players understand the system in baby steps.
I'm still considering Savage, too, but I've yet to take a look at the Sci-Fi toolkit. If it fits my needs, I may yet consider Savage Worlds...
EDIT: Also, has anybody tried BASH! Sci-Fi edition? It looks to cover every angle I'm going for, in a rules-lite but not detail-lite way...I just haven't forked over the cash for it yet. Wondering if anybody could say Yea or Nay to that system...?
If Mecha rules are essential but you still want a simple flexible system, I say go with SilCORE, or perhaps even it's predecessor Heavy Gear 3rd edition.
The central mechanic is solid, there's a lot of "realism" but resolution doesn't take very long. The robots have a lot of great crunch and can easily stand in for just about any mecha-genre robots.
Pming had it right above: the powers/magic rules are sort of tacked onin silCORE, and will require some effort to give them gloss that mechanized combat has.
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It might be a bit too rules-lite for you, but check out some of the FATE based games. I've only actually played (or rather, ran) Starblazer Adventures (Space Opera FATE) and I highly recommend it, but I've read through the rules for Legends of Anglerre (fantasy FATE), Spirit of the Century (Pulp Action FATE) and Diaspora (Hard-ish Sci Fi FATE).
I'd recommend any FATE game, and they're extremely easy to customize.
I throw my vote/suggestion in the HERO corner as well.
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I'll second the recommendation for Cortex System RPG.
Not the new "Cortex Plus" that they're using for the Leverage and Smallville games - they're moving the game more towards the FATE end of the spectrum, which is a bit too rules light for me. I prefer Cortex Original - look to the generic core rules or the Battlestar Galactica or Supernatural books.
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It might be a bit too rules-lite for you, but check out some of the FATE based games. I've only actually played (or rather, ran) Starblazer Adventures (Space Opera FATE) and I highly recommend it, but I've read through the rules for Legends of Anglerre (fantasy FATE), Spirit of the Century (Pulp Action FATE) and Diaspora (Hard-ish Sci Fi FATE).
I'd recommend any FATE game, and they're extremely easy to customize.
I have a hardcopy of Starblazer and a PDF of Anglerre. I'm impressed. I still need to see if I can try to mash together mecha rules out of the starship rules, and Anglerre is the only game that made me consider using a system other than d20 for my Fantasy gaming. My only issue with FATE is that there's no horror or mecha FATE. I think I can houserule the mecha stuff, but I'm holding out for some sort of Modern or Cthulhu FATE.
I haven't looked at HERO. I have heard it's just as a complex as, if not more complex, than GURPS. Anybody know how it measures up? I never really considered GURPS strongly because of the complexity factor.
I haven't looked at HERO. I have heard it's just as a complex as, if not more complex, than GURPS. Anybody know how it measures up? I never really considered GURPS strongly because of the complexity factor.
HERO is moderately to highly complex, depending on how detailed you want to get with it. As with any point-based system, the initial learning curve is higher than a class-based system. However, the way that HERO separates game-mechanics (what you do) from "special effects" (what it looks like) is IMO one of the best parts of the ruleset. Instead of setting up multiple separate rules for acid, cold, electricity, fire, lasers, etc., it defines "energy blasts" and "ranged killing attacks" and lets you determine the attack type (and any other effects you want to apply).
The overall system isn't really that much more complex than 3.x in typical play, but the system execution allows you a much greater level of control over a character's abilities and the amount of customization possible. This level of control and customization can make character creation a lot more complex, depending on how granular you wish to get, and the fractional modifiers to calculating point costs with additional effects and restrictions often require a calculator. However, it's fairly straightforward unless you want to get more detailed.
Quite literally, you can design a character/monster to do pretty much anything you can think of (within the restrictions of a particular campaign's power level and ability guidelines). It also allows an extremely wide variation in the types of campaigns possible.
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You might want to give Alternity a thought. Skill-based, fairly lethal (no extra hp per level, etc.)
I had thought of Alternity first, since it is still my favorite SF System. There is a lot of additional rules stuff here, including, if I'm not mistaken, mecha rules, but since the rulebooks are no longer available, not even as pdf (thenk you, WotC), it might be tricky to get all needed rulebooks. If you can get them, by all means do (especially Players Guide, Gamemasters Guide and, for robotic goodies: Dataware).
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You might want to give Alternity a thought. Skill-based, fairly lethal (no extra hp per level, etc.)I had thought of Alternity first, since it is still my favorite SF System. There is a lot of additional rules stuff here, including, if I'm not mistaken, mecha rules, but since the rulebooks are no longer available, not even as pdf (thenk you, WotC), it might be tricky to get all needed rulebooks. If you can get them, by all means do (especially Players Guide, Gamemasters Guide and, for robotic goodies: Dataware).
I actually picked up a few Alternity books back when the game was still in print, and then a few more recently, thanks to Amazon. I never found mecha rules, though, which was disappointing, because that game had EVERYTHING else I could've wanted out of a modern or sci-f game.
I've played True 20 and I don't think its that good of a system because the combat system is something left to be desired. It is a fairly realistic combat system but it can be confusing. It works really well with a supers game but not so well in other genres. Also, True 20 has the whole wealth system which I'm not a big fan of.
I'm really intrested in the Savage Worlds game but I haven't played a game nor ran one yet using the system. This system looks really interesting and there are a variety of conversions done here. This website has a variety of conversions done by fans of other systems that will work with Savage Worlds. Not all of them are complete nor really tested but I'm certain you will find something to suit your needs.
All in all, I highly suggest Savage Worlds over True 20 due to Savage Worlds having a fairly less complicated wound system.
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I actually picked up a few Alternity books back when the game was still in print, and then a few more recently, thanks to Amazon. I never found mecha rules, though, which was disappointing, because that game had EVERYTHING else I could've wanted out of a modern or sci-f game.You might want to give Alternity a thought. Skill-based, fairly lethal (no extra hp per level, etc.)I had thought of Alternity first, since it is still my favorite SF System. There is a lot of additional rules stuff here, including, if I'm not mistaken, mecha rules, but since the rulebooks are no longer available, not even as pdf (thenk you, WotC), it might be tricky to get all needed rulebooks. If you can get them, by all means do (especially Players Guide, Gamemasters Guide and, for robotic goodies: Dataware).
The Vehicles Section on the Fansite I linked contains rules for Mechs (Battletech or Gundam Style), and there is a Mecha Project going on (it is very usable by now) hidden somewhere in the Additional Rules Section.
Even if you don't go with Alternity for Mecha, you will want to grab the Free Warships Pdf from that Fansite. It is written by Richard Baker and would have been the next Alternity book published, had the game not been abandoned. You find it under the Official Books Heading.
When I was pitching a Pirate Hero campaign, I had about a dozen premade characters. After the first session, players were free to alter their character or work with me to create a new one from scratch.
I found it is much easier for people to wrap their head around a point buy system when they see some of the things that can be done.
In terms of flexibility, game balance, and the the ability to customize characters Hero is the best system I've ever seen in 3 decades of gaming.
In terms of flexibility, game balance, and the the ability to customize characters Hero is the best system I've ever seen in 3 decades of gaming.When I was pitching a Pirate Hero campaign, I had about a dozen premade characters. After the first session, players were free to alter their character or work with me to create a new one from scratch.
I found it is much easier for people to wrap their head around a point buy system when they see some of the things that can be done.
Bitter Thorn are you including the new Sixth Edition in that statement?
Not having seen it, I can only judge by the comments on the Hero Games discussion board,and from what I've heard,I don't think I'd want to play it-largely due to the comments made by 6th Edition supporters, which basically are different ways of saying 6th Edition is better than 5th, you should play it.
I have been playing Champions since 1st ed, and GM'ing 4th and 5th. I personally prefer 4th, but I have most of 5th and so far all of 6th. The main difference between 5th and 6th is there are no more derived stats, It is now a completely a point buy system (They did increase the base points because of this change). They did get rid of one stat (Com), and removed things that they thought could be done with other abilities. This makes the emphasis even more on the special effects of the powers, an example of this is Instant Change is now a minor cosmetic Transform. I still do not know if this is better, yet. I do not believe that new is necessarily better, but basic feel is still there. If you know soneone that owns it,(It is two large volunms to begin with.) or get the basic soft cover rulebook to start with. Obviously, this won't have all the rules, but it will be enough to start playing and may all you need if you want to keep it simple. I hope this helps.
Bitter Thorn are you including the new Sixth Edition in that statement?
I played Hero 5th edition extensively. I have only glanced through the 6th edition books. I saw noting that took away from Hero's flexibility, balance or capacity for customization.
The OP stated he was looking for 'just enough' crunch and that is the only reason why I would not more enthusiastically recommend Hero. All that versatility comes at the cost of complexity. The truth is, it is no more complex than Pathfinder, but most people are already at least familiar with d20. Hero is a large departure from d20 and therefore appears more complex.
The Hero system was the first one I ever played...when I tried playing 2nd ed AD&D I thought it sucked because I couldn't customize it and didn't play D&D again till 3rd ed. Excellent if rarely played system.
Hero, Gurps, and d6 all use familiar...and somewhat complex...creation methods that are point based (I admit to owning but never have played d6 so I might be remembering it wrong)....but might I suggest a specific variant: Gurps Lite
Gurps Lite has all the basics of Gurps but with less advantages/disadvantages and skills. It is a free download, and works well for newbies to Gurps. It is very generic-except for the inexplicable "Jump advantage-and works with almost any genre.
I liked it so much, I am making a D20-Lite for myself and friends to play.
Besm-20 is good also if GM does the heavy lifting for points--I ran a 5 month vampire campaign with it and I (GM) was the only guy to even have the book. I built a couple of new classes and the vamp races based on their points, then simply gave those to the players without them bothering to spend or recieve build points.
One last suggestion=D20 Modern. Yea, it has the complexity of any D20 but it is very generic.