One of our new writers and I have been working on a new race for an upcoming Obsidian Twilight product, but we are both stuck on the race's game mechanics. So I suggested that we place the mechanic on the Paizo boards and let the Paizo and Obsidian Twilight fan have a crack at it to make it workable. Feel free to rip this one apart, we WANT to know what is wrong with it.
XXXXX can be perceived by people on the Material plane, but they appear to be illusions and act in much the same way. They are bound by the Material Plane's limitations, but they can’t physically or magically interact with it. While in their dimensional crack, or phased out, they can't apply any force to anything in the Material Plane.
Can’t pass through solid objects, but solid objects can be passed through them by outside forces (If a phased out XXXXX punched someone, their hand would simply stop at the person, but the person wouldn’t feel anything. However, if someone punched an XXXXX, their hand would pass right through).
While in their dimensional crack, they are immune to attacks and spells, but they can’t attack or cast spells on anything in the Material Plane. To effect anything, they must manifest themselves, returning to the Material Plane for a short time. This is a swift or free action. They remain manifested until the start of their next turn. This leaves them open to attack for one round after they take any action.
Any item that leaves their possession while manifested phases out when they do, and items taken from the real world don’t phase out with them. Items they want must be bought from their craftsmen. Any animal companion bound to the character is also between dimensions and will phase in and out with the character.
Perhaps have a limit to the number of rounds they can be manifested per day, but make it high (10 * (level + XXX modifier)).
My main concern would be that the XXXX could phase out and UMD or use own spells for healing making them potentially devastating against their material plane locked opponent.
Having ammunition phase out with them would make for a few confused investigators..
As for the manifestation stat CON would fit if it was physically taxing, CHA / WIS if it was force of personality / willpower respectfully. Reminds me of the paladin's sword
Just my 2GP's worth
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I'm a little confused by what the ability intends.
I ASSUME (we know what they say about assuming! lol) that the creature is more or less incorporeal most of the time, and must manifest to interact with the material plane. There are some obvious differences from incorporeal, such as not being able to pass through solid objects, but solid objects passing through them.
My first concern is like Preacher's. That the creature can just return to it's semi-incorporeal state and buff and heal up then come back and fight again. Sure this lets opponents do the same, but still... I would suggest something like a restriction on how fast one could switch states. Maybe something like 1d4 rounds minimum is required before changing state again.
Just an idea.
I just don't understand HOW something like this works. It can't walk through walls, but can be hit with pieces of wall? I think it's very confusing and will lead to all sorts of confusion at the table. What if 2 of these guys threw each other at a wall? Would they pass through? Would one pass through and one not?
It almost sounds like you're trying to make a nerfed version of a ghost race, but haven't quite got it down yet.
EDIT:
Is it that they can't pass through STATIONARY objects, but they can move through MOVING objects? Like, they couldn't pass through the wall of a windmill, but they could walk through the spinning vane of windmill?
They can't pass through a closed door, but a door rattling in the wind is permeable to them?
Can they not move through a sleeping person, but could move through a fighting person? Is breathing considered enough movement to be permeable?
Hey guys, I'm the writer working with LPJ on this race.
Krome: You're assumption is pretty much correct. The race is stuck in an alternate dimension that is a half step off of the Material Plane most of the time, but can force themselves back to the Material Plane for short amounts of time. However, instead of thinking of them as almost incorporeal, try thinking of them as a living illusion that can become real. It really helps when considering how they interact with the real world while phased out.
I like your suggestion. If phasing at will proves to be a problem in playtesting, I'll give it a try.
SmiloDan: The way I would rule on it as a DM would be "It depends on who made contact." If a moving door tried to move through a stationary XXXXX, the door would completely ignore him and pass right through. However, if the XXXXX tried to walk through the door as it was opening, the door would act as solid to the XXXXX, would not pass through, and would in fact push the XXXXX along it's path. As a rule of thumb, the XXXXX should always be constrained by the Material Plane without the Material Plane being limited by their presence. The aforementioned illusion analogy really helps when thinking about it.
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So they're normally out of phase with normal matter and energy -- so far so good. The problem seems to be that you're trying to have them interact differently with different objects not based on their material or magical properties, but how they're being manipulated, like the door example.
Either they can always phase through a wooden door, or they can never phase through a wooden door -- but trying to make it conditional based on whether someone is pushing the door, or whether they're standing still, is just too esoteric -- you'll have to write pages trying to explain this effect, and it's still going to create time-consuming dialogues at the table.
So they're normally out of phase with normal matter and energy -- so far so good. The problem seems to be that you're trying to have them interact differently with different objects not based on their material or magical properties, but how they're being manipulated, like the door example.
Either they can always phase through a wooden door, or they can never phase through a wooden door -- but trying to make it conditional based on whether someone is pushing the door, or whether they're standing still, is just too esoteric -- you'll have to write pages trying to explain this effect, and it's still going to create time-consuming dialogues at the table.
This is the real issue I find with this race. The concept is VERY interesting, but the game mechanical is tough to make playbale.
There's another idea I was thinking of, but I thought it would be too detrimental to the player.
Instead of material objects being able to pass through them, they treat a phased out XXXXX as a weightless object. The XXXXX still can't effect the Material Plane.
Example: A phased out XXXXX and a human are standing next to each other. If the XXXXX pushed the human, it would do nothing. The human wouldn't even feel anything. However, if the human pushed the XXXXX, he would feel no resistance, but the XXXXX would be pushed along the path as if it were weightless and frictionless. If the human was using a sword to hit the XXXXX, it would still be moved, but not hurt.
This comes with its own set of problems. It makes the XXXXX very susceptible to being pushed around, and gives them very little they can do except manifest. This might not be a problem, since we need to give them reasons to leave their invincibility anyways.
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As for the original mechanic, the rule of thumb I think of is "The XXXXX are constrained by the Material Plane, but the Material Plane is not constrained by them."
I think the mechanic idea is sound, I just need to find a better way to explain it.
So working on this got me thinking, maybe I should give something away to help motivate interest in helping to solve this problem. So who ever comes up with the best answer / solution to making this a "cool" gaming mechanic, they will get a $20 credit that can be used to purchase any of LPJ Design nearly 500 PDFs. How does that sound?
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The illusionati are trapped partway between the Material Plane and the Ethereal, making them manifest in the Material Plane as immaterial beings, and appearing similar to illusions. They cannot manipulate nonmagical objects as their hands and bodies pass through the substance. They can pass through nonmagical walls and doors, but can only do so slowly; stepping entirely through a door or wall of normal thickness is a move action, and passing through a wall or object more than 5' thick is impossible. They take only 1/4 (25%) damage from nonmagical weapons, however they take full damage from all magical weapons, spells, and spell-like abilities.
That could work delabarre. It raises two questions for me. First, should we consider living things non-magical? Second, what would happen if a non-magical thing tried to move through them?
Personally, I believe that living things should be non-magical, and that the XXXXX/illusionati should present the same restriction to things moving through them that they are under when moving through stuff (move action to get through). This way, they act more like a hyper-dense gas: Permeable, but still able to be affected.
The illusionati are trapped partway between the Material Plane and the Ethereal, making them manifest in the Material Plane as immaterial beings, and appearing similar to illusions. They cannot manipulate nonmagical objects as their hands and bodies pass through the substance. They can pass through nonmagical walls and doors, but can only do so slowly; stepping entirely through a door or wall of normal thickness is a move action, and passing through a wall or object more than 5' thick is impossible. They take only 1/4 (25%) damage from nonmagical weapons, however they take full damage from all magical weapons, spells, and spell-like abilities.
I like this. It has the best of both worlds. Nonmagical attacks are still a danger, but not a major danger plus you resisted their movement so that you can trap them as need. But here is a question, could they open a spell book and read it?
I like this. It has the best of both worlds. Nonmagical attacks are still a danger, but not a major danger plus you resisted their movement so that you can trap them as need. But here is a question, could they open a spell book and read it?
I would say no for an average person's spellbook. Despite the spells written in it, the book itself is still just paper and ink. Obviously, if the spellbook was enchanted, it would be counted as magical.
In the case of XXXXX wizards, I have it set up in the lore that their entire city was phased out, and still survives to this day. From there, they can get spellbooks and other mundane items that are just as out of phase as they are. This is also what allows them to wear clothes, since under the description above, normal clothing would just slide right through them.
One question that springs to mind is the effect of objects whether they be weapons or something else that have the ghost touch quality. I would assume that a ghost touch sword would be able to cut or stab this race normally. I did pick up Obsidian Twilight and rather enjoy most of what I see so far. I didn't even quibble about putting in $50 for the kickstarter for the sequel I enjoyed it that much. There are problems I have with the Lykians but that is not something I will go into here although that is the race I would most want to play in an Obsidian Twilight campaign for reasons that should be obvious to those that know the race. But on to this race you're having problems with.
I agree that the idea of what you are trying to accomplish sounds VERY interesting. What we're looking at here primarily is an entire race that is more less like Kitty Pryde with more or less the same sort of control. Deladarre has a great idea. Otherwise you're really looking more at what is considered fluff than crunch for the race.
One question that springs to mind is the effect of objects whether they be weapons or something else that have the ghost touch quality. I would assume that a ghost touch sword would be able to cut or stab this race normally.
Using the rules written by delabarre, Ghost Touch would be redundant in this case. The enchanted weapon is already magical, and would thus harm the XXXXX normally.
I agree that the idea of what you are trying to accomplish sounds VERY interesting. What we're looking at here primarily is an entire race that is more less like Kitty Pryde with more or less the same sort of control. Deladarre has a great idea. Otherwise you're really looking more at what is considered fluff than crunch for the race.
This is one of the hardest things to do when creating a new race is balancing what sounds cool with one character over what sounds cool over hundreds of characters.
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Sorry I've been away from the thread to answer questions. This was an attempt to describe a lesser form of incorporeality; in other ways (such as whether the creature can manipulate or pass through living creatures), this effect/condition should behave like incorporeality does.
Full incorporeality makes creatures nearly invulnerable to low-level characters who lack ready access to enhanced weapons, so I designed this effect to be mimic that condition while still being somewhat vulnerable to low-level PCs.
OK we might have come up with a workable idea for all this that is cool and game mechanics wise it makes sense. More to come...