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I dont know what version of history you have been spun...but in 1526 there was a permanent islamic community in North Australia. It didnt survive 250 years of cyclones and a tidal wave.
It wasnt a 'seasonal Makassan fishing camp'. It was a proper - full blown permanent port with Big white mosque, and a 'Convert the locals to Islam' policy.Perhaps you would like to cite some serious references for your claims. And perhaps educate us as to where this colony and "big white mosque" were located.
In 1526 Islam was only making inroad into Eastern Indonesia and still consolidating in Java and other major population centres.
There are not just a few 'indonesian' words in the assorted indigenous languages across the northern Territory, there is a selection of Islamic concepts permeating the culture and actual islamic words - varied slightly after 250 years - but in use.The presence of Indonesian words (or more likely trade Malay which was the lingua franca of traders in the region) has no bearing on whether there was a colony or not, as it does not indicate when the interaction that led to the loan words appearing started. The words would still appear if the interaction commenced in the 1600s, 1700s or later.
I'm curious, what are the Islamic concepts that permeate the culture? And, again, how do they support the 1526 claim?
The Influence of Islam has absolutly polluted the North Australian indigenous culture- Sufficiently so that had there been no contact with islam - there would have been a very different Indigenous culture on 'European' settlement.Now you are heading off to fairyland with this statement. What is this "pollution" you speak of and how did it alter aboriginal culture in northern Australia compared to areas where this supposed pollution did not occur? Sure there was interaction - even intermarriage, limited trade etc - but again, this is independent of when the first contacts occured. Some...
I like that you include eel trap farming of Victoria...What very few people know is that Eel farming occured at the source of the Adelaide River in the NT. Indeed in the pools from which bubbles spring water at the top of a rock escarpment is a colony of Eels. I know the local Indigenous farmed them. So there is one interesting Farming Tech that was apparently 'National'.
The Greatest Concentration of Mortar and Pestle technology are in North Australia - centred on regions of Contact. A Granite Mortar and Pestle. What always concerned me is the Black Basalt Stone Axes. I dont recall Black Basalt sources in the NT. We have lots of bluestone used to gravel highways. There are Granite upswells here and there.
I tell you where the Islamic Colony was and the next thing you are making money off it...We have had enough of carpetbaggers showing up in the NT.
My family converted to islam 500 years ago - we came here in 1526 and there was a settlement with a Mosque. We left and went back to Europe - frankly i would have stayed - considering Europe was a religious cespit. Then America just in time to have our Farm burned by George Washington (for not supporting his terrorist army). There wasnt a community here when we came back to Australia. The Java Trench is so unstable - It was most likely that 250 years of Cyclones and A Tidal Wave erased it from the map.
So yes. There was a Permanent Islamic Settlement and farming and Fishing. Just because it isnt in your history book - means nothing to me.
I'm not going to tell you my secrets...Just hint at them so maybe you will feel obliged to sneak into the NT and study what happened here. Maybe you will learn something.
Dragon Farming: A National Sport
I'm quite sure the there was no Islamic colony in Australia in 1526.You would all be very wrong...
:) As I said - My family lived in that Islamic Colony in North Australia. We converted to Islam a long Time Ago. That makes her degree in Aboriginal Studies worth toilet paper.
It best that we start another thread as we have derailed this one enough. I will be more than happy to discuss this further with you.
218) Martin Luther decides to recant his heresies. Much of the impetus and the ideas that grew into the french and then the american revolutions never take root.Luther's Actions originally led to the liberalization of Universities and the acceptability of the questioning of Ideology and Doctrine. Without The Martin Luther movement. There will be no Genetics, no Newtonian Physics, No women in University study..... and apparently it meant that punctuation never developed. Curse you Martin Luther!
But seriously, to claim that Martin Luther alone was responsible for all those issues is ludicrous. His work and actions may have had the effect of speeding up change in certain areas, but it is drawing an incredibly long bow - even by the standards of this thread - to suggest that he alone was the reason.
If it hadn't been Martin Luther, it eventually would have been someone else.
It best that we start another thread as we have derailed this one enough. I will be more than happy to discuss this further with you.I'm quite sure the there was no Islamic colony in Australia in 1526.You would all be very wrong...
:) As I said - My family lived in that Islamic Colony in North Australia. We converted to Islam a long Time Ago. That makes her degree in Aboriginal Studies worth toilet paper.
+1 to that. Please!
I'm quite sure the there was no Islamic colony in Australia in 1526.You would all be very wrong...
:) As I said - My family lived in that Islamic Colony in North Australia. We converted to Islam a long Time Ago. That makes her degree in Aboriginal Studies worth toilet paper.
I assume you are trying to make reference to my wife's degree here which is really quite pathetic on your part. Feel free to display monumental ignorance but don't go around insulting people who aren't directly part of the discussion.
[I like that you include eel trap farming of Victoria...What very few people know is that Eel farming occured at the source of the Adelaide River in the NT. Indeed in the pools from which bubbles spring water at the top of a rock escarpment is a colony of Eels. I know the local Indigenous farmed them. So there is one interesting Farming Tech that was apparently 'National'.
Setting up an eel trap in a river is not farming. But I doubt you are interested in such technical distinctions.
The Greatest Concentration of Mortar and Pestle technology are in North Australia - centred on regions of Contact. A Granite Mortar and Pestle. What always concerned me is the Black Basalt Stone Axes. I dont recall Black Basalt sources in the NT. We have lots of bluestone used to gravel highways. There are Granite upswells here and there.
Again, irrelevant. Mortar and pestles are a fairly universal technology. Roman soldiers used to carry them to grind their grain rations. So, to follow your train of thought, they must have had contact with Islamic settlers in northern Australia. That will really throw established historical understandings on its head. But, dang, the Roman Empire was over by the time Islam developed. Have to go back to the drawing board with that theory.
I tell you where the Islamic Colony was and the next thing you are making money off it...We have had enough of carpetbaggers showing up in the NT.
um, who's making money? This thread might be rich in humour, but that is a different kind of wealth.
My family converted to islam 500 years ago - we came here in 1526 and there was a settlement with a Mosque. We left and went back to Europe - frankly i would have stayed - considering Europe was a religious cespit. Then America just in time to have our Farm burned by George Washington (for not supporting his terrorist army). There wasnt a community here when we came back to Australia. The Java Trench is so unstable - It was most likely that 250 years of Cyclones and A Tidal Wave erased it from the map.
So yes. There was a Permanent Islamic Settlement and farming and Fishing. Just because it isnt in your history book - means nothing to me.
I'm not going to tell you my secrets...Just hint at them so maybe you will feel obliged to sneak into the NT and study what happened here. Maybe you will learn something.
Good for you. But that doesn't avoid the need for the hypothetical situations in this thread to have a historically sound basis.
Here's one then to get the thread back on track...
1526 The Portuguese fail to establish their first outpost on Timor due to military defeats against the local kingdoms. Regional Islamic kingdoms in the Indonesian archipelago are emboldened to more actively resist further efforts by the Portuguese and later the Dutch to get a solid foothold. Ultimately the Dutch and Portuguese, unable to profit from their efforts in Indonesia, decide to focus on Africa and India. Christianity - in the absence of the Dutch and Portuguese - does not establish itself in Eastern Indonesia and Islam becomes even more dominant throughout Indonesia. Without the threat from European powers, Indonesian traders and explorers spread further east and south. Eventually permanent settlements are established in northern Australia. Indonesian traders and carpetbaggers make a small fortune selling mortars and pestles to the locals, while sate eel becomes the most popular food in the new Indonesian colonies. Some may even have had large white mosques.....
OK, the last few lines might be stretching things, but it is an interesting proposition thought in the history of colonial expansion - what if the early efforts by the western explorers/colonisers were too costly and/or difficult that they give up. Yet a by-product of their efforts is that the peoples they encountered gained technology/knowledge that better equipped them to resist further encroachment.
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Wow guys... lots of american history here. Anyway:
217) The chinese emperor's representative, leading his fleet west to determine if there are other civilizations there, does not lose heart and make his decision to turn back just east of Madagascar. His fleet of massive warships and their huge numbers of soldiers continue for a few days more, eventually discovering the western civilization... in the middle ages.
218) Martin Luther decides to recant his heresies. Much of the impetus and the ideas that grew into the french and then the american revolutions never take root.
You do know the French Revolution took place nearly 15 years after the American Revolution, right?
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If it hadn't been Martin Luther, it eventually would have been someone else.218) Martin Luther decides to recant his heresies. Much of the impetus and the ideas that grew into the French and then the American revolutions never take root.Luther's Actions originally led to the liberalization of Universities and the acceptability of the questioning of Ideology and Doctrine. Without The Martin Luther movement. There will be no Genetics, no Newtonian Physics, No women in University study..... and apparently it meant that punctuation never developed. Curse you Martin Luther!
But seriously, to claim that Martin Luther alone was responsible for all those issues is ludicrous. His work and actions may have had the effect of speeding up change in certain areas, but it is drawing an incredibly long bow - even by the standards of this thread - to suggest that he alone was the reason.
Maybe.... Honestly though Luther alone was not the cause. If the population had not been decimated by disease he might have been drug off and burned at the stake for heresy. Even if he was right in many of his thoughts he chose a very dramatic way to set them out. He was also very devout and did not want to build his own church but rather fix the one he was in. That would have and could have changed history as well, if he choose a different way to proceed. Yeah it may have taken longer but would have left the Church without such a great schism.
+1 to that. Please!It best that we start another thread as we have derailed this one enough. I will be more than happy to discuss this further with you.I'm quite sure the there was no Islamic colony in Australia in 1526.You would all be very wrong...
:) As I said - My family lived in that Islamic Colony in North Australia. We converted to Islam a long Time Ago. That makes her degree in Aboriginal Studies worth toilet paper.
Last request! After this, I go through and start to flag EACH AND EVERY POST related to this subject. Get on track everyone. I am enjoying this thread for the most part. Don't ruin it for me.
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Maybe.... Honestly though Luther alone was not the cause. If the population had not been decimated by disease he might have been drug off and burned at the stake for heresy. Even if he was right in many of his thoughts he chose a very dramatic way to set them out. He was also very devout and did not want to build his own church but rather fix the one he was in. That would have and could have changed history as well, if he choose a different way to proceed. Yeah it may have taken longer but would have left the Church without such a great schism.
The Church by its nature was ripe for schism. In fact schisms had already been a part of it's history since the debate of whether to stay in Rome or move with the Emperor to Constantinople resulted in the split between what would become known as the Catholic and Orthodox churches (a bit misleading as Orthodoxy is not nearly as unified as the Catholics and does not recognize a singular leader)
If it hadn't been Luthor it'd would have been someone else. In fact Henry the 8th caused a schism all of his own.
Very true. I was not trying to forget those points, just not put up a two page post for every detail. :)
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Last request! After this, I go through and start to flag EACH AND EVERY POST related to this subject. Get on track everyone. I am enjoying this thread for the most part. Don't ruin it for me.+1 to that. Please!It best that we start another thread as we have derailed this one enough. I will be more than happy to discuss this further with you.I'm quite sure the there was no Islamic colony in Australia in 1526.You would all be very wrong...
:) As I said - My family lived in that Islamic Colony in North Australia. We converted to Islam a long Time Ago. That makes her degree in Aboriginal Studies worth toilet paper.
You are an evil dragon. :P
You do know the French Revolution took place nearly 15 years after the American Revolution, right?Wow guys... lots of american history here. Anyway:
217) The chinese emperor's representative, leading his fleet west to determine if there are other civilizations there, does not lose heart and make his decision to turn back just east of Madagascar. His fleet of massive warships and their huge numbers of soldiers continue for a few days more, eventually discovering the western civilization... in the middle ages.
218) Martin Luther decides to recant his heresies. Much of the impetus and the ideas that grew into the french and then the american revolutions never take root.
Tis' all about momentum, dood...
Several opportunities for tipping points were missed during the Civil War. One was the Battle of Gettysburg where the Northern General (Not U.S. Grant) passed up an opportunity to continue the chase and destroy the Confederate army which would have ended the war almost 2 years earlier. Lincoln survives to complete 2 perhaps 3 terms as President avoiding the worst of the carpetbag era that would descend on the South.I think most of the people are avoiding the obvious ones.
216) Here is one. Night of May 3rd 1863: Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson is not wounded in a friendly fire incident while scouting a night attack. Almost a month latter, at Gettysburg. On the second day he captures the left flank and the encircles a the large percentage of the Union Army. The rest retreats toward Harrisburg.
Lee, realizing that time is limited goes for the decicive victory. Before the Union Army can regroup he heads south to the forts surrounding Washington DC. Against the advice of Jackson and Longstreet, Lee sends the cream of his army into the fortifications around Washington DC. 'Pickett's Charge' ends is an even greater disaster for the Confederates then IRL and while the Army of Northern Virgina successfully retreats, it is less able to withstand the hammer blows of Grant the next Summer and comes apart in August 1864 outside Petersburg.
Grant, supplied by Sea, marches down the Carolina coast. The remains of Lee's Army manages to unite with Johnston in Georgia but by then the damage is done. The Army of Northern Virgina and the Army of Tennesee surrender in Dec. 1864, just in time for Christmas.
All the Best,
Kerney
That's the Newt Gingrich scenario..seems like the Yankees can't ever conceive of the South actually winning.. something always has to turn history back to the 'right ' course.
Several opportunities for tipping points were missed during the Civil War. One was the Battle of Gettysburg where the Northern General (Not U.S. Grant) passed up an opportunity to continue the chase and destroy the Confederate army which would have ended the war almost 2 years earlier. Lincoln survives to complete 2 perhaps 3 terms as President avoiding the worst of the carpetbag era that would descend on the South.I think most of the people are avoiding the obvious ones.
216) Here is one. Night of May 3rd 1863: Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson is not wounded in a friendly fire incident while scouting a night attack. Almost a month latter, at Gettysburg. On the second day he captures the left flank and the encircles a the large percentage of the Union Army. The rest retreats toward Harrisburg.
Lee, realizing that time is limited goes for the decicive victory. Before the Union Army can regroup he heads south to the forts surrounding Washington DC. Against the advice of Jackson and Longstreet, Lee sends the cream of his army into the fortifications around Washington DC. 'Pickett's Charge' ends is an even greater disaster for the Confederates then IRL and while the Army of Northern Virgina successfully retreats, it is less able to withstand the hammer blows of Grant the next Summer and comes apart in August 1864 outside Petersburg.
Grant, supplied by Sea, marches down the Carolina coast. The remains of Lee's Army manages to unite with Johnston in Georgia but by then the damage is done. The Army of Northern Virgina and the Army of Tennesee surrender in Dec. 1864, just in time for Christmas.
All the Best,
Kerney
That's the Newt Gingrich scenario..seems like the Yankees can't ever conceive of the South actually winning.. something always has to turn history back to the 'right ' course.
The South's biggest problems were manpower, industry, and transportation. They still could have won, but they would have had to do it fast. The war of attrition would have gone to the North.
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Tis' all about momentum, dood...You do know the French Revolution took place nearly 15 years after the American Revolution, right?Wow guys... lots of american history here. Anyway:
217) The chinese emperor's representative, leading his fleet west to determine if there are other civilizations there, does not lose heart and make his decision to turn back just east of Madagascar. His fleet of massive warships and their huge numbers of soldiers continue for a few days more, eventually discovering the western civilization... in the middle ages.
218) Martin Luther decides to recant his heresies. Much of the impetus and the ideas that grew into the french and then the american revolutions never take root.
Yeah, our momentum became the good old USA. Theirs became the Reign of Terror followed by Napoleon ;)
Yeah, our momentum became the good old USA. Theirs became the Reign of Terror followed by Napoleon ;)Tis' all about momentum, dood...You do know the French Revolution took place nearly 15 years after the American Revolution, right?Wow guys... lots of american history here. Anyway:
217) The chinese emperor's representative, leading his fleet west to determine if there are other civilizations there, does not lose heart and make his decision to turn back just east of Madagascar. His fleet of massive warships and their huge numbers of soldiers continue for a few days more, eventually discovering the western civilization... in the middle ages.
218) Martin Luther decides to recant his heresies. Much of the impetus and the ideas that grew into the french and then the american revolutions never take root.
Followed by more Imperialism followed by getting bled out followed by a swift conquering then liberation then ... ummm, where were we again ?
223- The muslim generals invading the frankish states in 732 fail to underestimate the army of Charles Martel as just another barbarian horde the likes of which had sprung up following the fall of Rome, and Charles fails to win the battle of Tours in 732, and the forces of the muslims advance unchecked into Europe, destroying the inroads of Christianity, and changing the predominant religion of Europe to Islam.
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Followed by more Imperialism followed by getting bled out followed by a swift conquering then liberation then ... ummm, where were we again ?Yeah, our momentum became the good old USA. Theirs became the Reign of Terror followed by Napoleon ;)Tis' all about momentum, dood...You do know the French Revolution took place nearly 15 years after the American Revolution, right?Wow guys... lots of american history here. Anyway:
217) The chinese emperor's representative, leading his fleet west to determine if there are other civilizations there, does not lose heart and make his decision to turn back just east of Madagascar. His fleet of massive warships and their huge numbers of soldiers continue for a few days more, eventually discovering the western civilization... in the middle ages.
218) Martin Luther decides to recant his heresies. Much of the impetus and the ideas that grew into the french and then the american revolutions never take root.
Inventing more types of cheese?
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Several opportunities for tipping points were missed during the Civil War. One was the Battle of Gettysburg where the Northern General (Not U.S. Grant) passed up an opportunity to continue the chase and destroy the Confederate army which would have ended the war almost 2 years earlier. Lincoln survives to complete 2 perhaps 3 terms as President avoiding the worst of the carpetbag era that would descend on the South.I think most of the people are avoiding the obvious ones.
216) Here is one. Night of May 3rd 1863: Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson is not wounded in a friendly fire incident while scouting a night attack. Almost a month latter, at Gettysburg. On the second day he captures the left flank and the encircles a the large percentage of the Union Army. The rest retreats toward Harrisburg.
Lee, realizing that time is limited goes for the decicive victory. Before the Union Army can regroup he heads south to the forts surrounding Washington DC. Against the advice of Jackson and Longstreet, Lee sends the cream of his army into the fortifications around Washington DC. 'Pickett's Charge' ends is an even greater disaster for the Confederates then IRL and while the Army of Northern Virgina successfully retreats, it is less able to withstand the hammer blows of Grant the next Summer and comes apart in August 1864 outside Petersburg.
Grant, supplied by Sea, marches down the Carolina coast. The remains of Lee's Army manages to unite with Johnston in Georgia but by then the damage is done. The Army of Northern Virgina and the Army of Tennesee surrender in Dec. 1864, just in time for Christmas.
All the Best,
Kerney
That's the Newt Gingrich scenario..seems like the Yankees can't ever conceive of the South actually winning.. something always has to turn history back to the 'right ' course.
The Gingrich scenario differs in several ways, notably:
1) Details on Gettysburg. Mine involves Jackson taking the right on the second day (likely with him in command rather then Ewell). Gingrich has Lee taking Longstreet's advice and avoiding battle on the ground at Gettysburg.
2) My ANV does not linger in Maryland, successfully retreating and defending Northern Virgina for over a year after the failure to take Washington.
3) There is a March through Virgina and the Carolinas, but it is less brutal due to seaborn supply.
As for a scenario in which the South actually wins, I don't see the Gettysburg campaign achieving this, simply because the North, with it's material advantages plus the the fact that they were finding competent leaders who could reverse the situation, unlike the year before during the Antietam campaign where Mcclellen got unbelievably lucky and still couldn't get better then a draw.
As for an interesting "Southern Victory" scenario, here is one.
224) December 1863-- Patrick Cleburne circulates a proposal for the arming of slaves to fight for the Confederacy in return for manumission. It is met with silence. However, reluctantly Bragg passes it on to Richmond and also to fellow commander Robert E. Lee.
Lee, with the ear of Jefferson Davis, champions it much more vigorously then he did IRL. In March 1864, a bill authorizing the arming and training of black troops passes the Confederate Congress.
In the coming months these troops are crucial in stopping Grant's offensive, first at North Anna and Sherman outside Atlanta. It also changes the moral tone of the war. This and the and the stalemate on both fronts leads to the defeat of Lincoln in the November elections as well as a congressional majority unwilling to fund the war.
In March 1865, with the their armies still outside Atlanta and Richmond, the new administration asks for an armistice on the basis of separation.
All the Best,
Kerney
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Several opportunities for tipping points were missed during the Civil War. One was the Battle of Gettysburg where the Northern General (Not U.S. Grant) passed up an opportunity to continue the chase and destroy the Confederate army which would have ended the war almost 2 years earlier. Lincoln survives to complete 2 perhaps 3 terms as President avoiding the worst of the carpetbag era that would descend on the South.I think most of the people are avoiding the obvious ones.
216) Here is one. Night of May 3rd 1863: Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson is not wounded in a friendly fire incident while scouting a night attack. Almost a month latter, at Gettysburg. On the second day he captures the left flank and the encircles a the large percentage of the Union Army. The rest retreats toward Harrisburg.
Lee, realizing that time is limited goes for the decicive victory. Before the Union Army can regroup he heads south to the forts surrounding Washington DC. Against the advice of Jackson and Longstreet, Lee sends the cream of his army into the fortifications around Washington DC. 'Pickett's Charge' ends is an even greater disaster for the Confederates then IRL and while the Army of Northern Virgina successfully retreats, it is less able to withstand the hammer blows of Grant the next Summer and comes apart in August 1864 outside Petersburg.
Grant, supplied by Sea, marches down the Carolina coast. The remains of Lee's Army manages to unite with Johnston in Georgia but by then the damage is done. The Army of Northern Virgina and the Army of Tennesee surrender in Dec. 1864, just in time for Christmas.
All the Best,
Kerney
That's the Newt Gingrich scenario..seems like the Yankees can't ever conceive of the South actually winning.. something always has to turn history back to the 'right ' course.
Oddly enough i had this conversation with someone else a few months back.
Given the chance at independance (having walked Anthrax laden delicacies into the Whithouse as a false act of 'appeasement' The South could have taken out the entire Union Government), The South would have found slavery a Powerhouse Economy if they had nationalized the Slave Population. The Slave Exporting Colonies run by the Dutch, the Germans, and the Belgians would have guaranteed the Confederacy a good supply of Slaves and proped up Slavery in Europe.
They could have undermined the Northern State by simply allowing the old and infirm to escape across the border in their thousands. All they had to do was let the slaves leave the South for the North and the Paid Labour Economy of the North would have collapsed as Industries and farmers dumped overpaid white labour for cheap black laboureres.
In the end the North would have drowned in the embarasement of having Refugee camps in its border territories and on indian Land forming a high Creole Population while the South simply refereshed its healthy slave population by buying more from abroad.
Oddly enough i had this conversation with someone else a few months back.
Given the chance at independance (having walked Anthrax laden delicacies into the Whithouse as a false act of 'appeasement' The South could have taken out the entire Union Government), The South would have found slavery a Powerhouse Economy if they had nationalized the Slave Population. The Slave Exporting Colonies run by the Dutch, the Germans, and the Belgians would have guaranteed the Confederacy a good supply of Slaves and proped up Slavery in Europe.
They could have undermined the Northern State by simply allowing the old and infirm to escape across the border in their thousands. All they had to do was let the slaves leave the South for the North and the Paid Labour Economy of the North would have collapsed as Industries and farmers dumped overpaid white labour for cheap black laboureres.
In the end the North would have drowned in the embarasement of having Refugee camps in its border territories and on indian Land forming a high Creole Population while the South simply refereshed its healthy slave population by buying more from abroad.
Hnn. A few good, if ugly, points there.
and I suppose the fact that the Royal Navies entire efforts during most of the 19th century were devoted to stopping the transatlantic slave trade would have had no effect on this..if you are going to write alt his at least make it plausible and not some fevered rambling..
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and I suppose the fact that the Royal Navies entire efforts during most of the 19th century were devoted to stopping the transatlantic slave trade would have had no effect on this..if you are going to write alt his at least make it plausible and not some fevered rambling..
Hardly fevered Rambling. The fact is that had the South Won or come away with independance - legitimizing Slavery - it simply needs to:
- Form an economic alliance with those Slave trading nations in Europe to safeguard Slavery. Had Britain attacked the Slave ships of the Germans, Belgians, or Dutch, they would have provoked a World War over Slavery. The 'European Union' would have crushed the British.
- Dump 'surplus' Slaves into the Northern Economy sparking Bigotry in the North until every election was dominated by the issue of ex slaves undermining the Labour Economy. Perhaps sufficient to give rise to Unionism.
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Form an economic alliance with those Slave trading nations in Europe to safeguard Slavery. Had Britain attacked the Slave ships of the Germans, Belgians, or Dutch, they would have provoked a World War over Slavery. The 'European Union' would have crushed the British.
I'm not sure this would be the case, the Brits had a serious naval power and the backing of the industrial revolution on their side. I'm not exactly sure how the Germans (who lacked a serious navy), the Dutch (who had once been a naval power but no longer), and the Belgians could've stopped them.
The French would've been more than happy to allow the Brits to deal with their rivals in Germany. The main source of problems to the Royal Navy could've come from America. By the beginning of the 20th century, the Americans were already on their way to overtaking the Brits for a powerful Navy.
THAT being said, if the Ottoman Empire had fully invested in modernizing their navy and potentially gaining an alliance with Spain to quell pains over the annexation of Gibraltir, they could've posed a serious threat outside of the Mediterranean to British forces in the 19th century. They definitely had the money for it, but modernizing the Ottomans would've been difficult. It would be very interesting to think what the slave trade would be like had the Turks taken control of a large chunk of it and began transporting slaves to the US of A or points south.
and I suppose the fact that the Royal Navies entire efforts during most of the 19th century were devoted to stopping the transatlantic slave trade would have had no effect on this..if you are going to write alt his at least make it plausible and not some fevered rambling..
+1
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One of the competing cults that offered the same things as Christianity would win out, Mithridaism, The Isis cult, Orphic Mysteries and so on.Mithraism most definitely. It gave Christianity a pretty good run for its money anyway!
I am working under the impression that Santa Claus is really just Mithras merged with Odin and Zeus. I would think that Santa Claus association with Dec 25 (Mithras' B-day) and gift giving would make it clear, if the red cap didn't. Makes you think, doesn't it? :P
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I am working under the impression that Santa Claus is really just Mithras merged with Odin and Zeus. I would think that Santa Claus association with Dec 25 (Mithras' B-day) and gift giving would make it clear, if the red cap didn't. Makes you think, doesn't it? :POne of the competing cults that offered the same things as Christianity would win out, Mithridaism, The Isis cult, Orphic Mysteries and so on.Mithraism most definitely. It gave Christianity a pretty good run for its money anyway!
Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra (now Demre) in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes.
Numerous parallels have been drawn between Santa Claus and the figure of Odin, a major god amongst the Germanic peoples prior to their Christianization. Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.
Pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history and folklore, notably St Nicholas and Sinterklaas, merged with the British character Father Christmas to create the character known to Britons and Americans as Santa Claus. Father Christmas dates back at least as far as the 17th century in Britain, and pictures of him survive from that era, portraying him as a jolly well-nourished bearded man dressed in a long, green, fur-lined robe. He typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, and was reflected as the "Ghost of Christmas Present", in Charles Dickens Festive classic A Christmas Carol, a great genial man in a green coat lined with fur who takes Scrooge through the bustling streets of London on the current Christmas morning, sprinkling the essence of Christmas onto the happy populace.
and I suppose the fact that the Royal Navies entire efforts during most of the 19th century were devoted to stopping the transatlantic slave trade would have had no effect on this..if you are going to write alt his at least make it plausible and not some fevered rambling..
Hardly fevered Rambling. The fact is that had the South Won or come away with independance - legitimizing Slavery - it simply needs to:
- Form an economic alliance with those Slave trading nations in Europe to safeguard Slavery. Had Britain attacked the Slave ships of the Germans, Belgians, or Dutch, they would have provoked a World War over Slavery. The 'European Union' would have crushed the British.
- Dump 'surplus' Slaves into the Northern Economy sparking Bigotry in the North until every election was dominated by the issue of ex slaves undermining the Labour Economy. Perhaps sufficient to give rise to Unionism.
Britain had defeated Napoleon - at this stage it was the only superpower. Yes the US had some very effective modern ships but not enough of them to be a serious threat to British Naval power.
If the US had actually begun to seriously threaten British Naval supremacy, the side show in the Americas would have gone beyond the small scale battles and Wellington would have taken a hand.
During the war against Napoleon Royal Navy had demonstrated that it could effectively blockade two continents, it choked Europe to the point where it forced the countries that had capitulated to Napoleon to rebel.
So in response to this the Royal Navy would have destroyed the fledgling Confederate Navy. Sat off the coast and bombed it into a wasteland. The North would sit back regroup and launch the Second Civil war.
As for Belgium, the German states as there was no united Germany(Prussia mainly) and the Dutch would have had their economies ruined by a Royal Navy blockade of all Europe.
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I am working under the impression that Santa Claus is really just Mithras merged with Odin and Zeus. I would think that Santa Claus association with Dec 25 (Mithras' B-day) and gift giving would make it clear, if the red cap didn't. Makes you think, doesn't it? :POne of the competing cults that offered the same things as Christianity would win out, Mithridaism, The Isis cult, Orphic Mysteries and so on.Mithraism most definitely. It gave Christianity a pretty good run for its money anyway!Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra (now Demre) in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes.
Numerous parallels have been drawn between Santa Claus and the figure of Odin, a major god amongst the Germanic peoples prior to their Christianization. Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.
Pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history and folklore, notably St Nicholas and Sinterklaas, merged with the British character Father Christmas to create the character known to Britons and Americans as Santa Claus. Father Christmas dates back at least as far as the 17th century in Britain, and pictures of him survive from that era, portraying him as a jolly well-nourished bearded man dressed in a long, green, fur-lined robe. He typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, and was reflected as the "Ghost of...
Ah, internet access and wiki. Touche. hehehe.
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...I am working under the impression that Santa Claus is really just Mithras merged with Odin and Zeus. I would think that Santa Claus association with Dec 25 (Mithras' B-day) and gift giving would make it clear, if the red cap didn't. Makes you think, doesn't it? :POne of the competing cults that offered the same things as Christianity would win out, Mithridaism, The Isis cult, Orphic Mysteries and so on.Mithraism most definitely. It gave Christianity a pretty good run for its money anyway!Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra (now Demre) in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes.
Numerous parallels have been drawn between Santa Claus and the figure of Odin, a major god amongst the Germanic peoples prior to their Christianization. Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.
Pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history and folklore, notably St Nicholas and Sinterklaas, merged with the British character Father Christmas to create the character known to Britons and Americans as Santa Claus. Father Christmas dates back at least as far as the 17th century in Britain, and pictures of him survive from that era, portraying him as a jolly well-nourished bearded man dressed in a long, green, fur-lined robe. He typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, and was
Wiki is me friend :) except when it is wrong.
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Wiki is me friend :) except when it is wrong.
I've heard all kinds of things about Santa Claus, you can find all kinds of stuff on the internet, differnt books, and some stuff on television. I honestly don't think anyone will really know all the details that makes up SC because so much of it is just hindsight retrofits.
Edit: Besides, we all know he's actually a Gray Alien sent here to infect children with polar radiation.
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Wiki is me friend :) except when it is wrong.I've heard all kinds of things about Santa Claus, you can find all kinds of stuff on the internet, differnt books, and some stuff on television. I honestly don't think anyone will really know all the details that makes up SC because so much of it is just hindsight retrofits.
Edit: Besides, we all know he's actually a Gray Alien sent here to infect children with polar radiation.
I think I covered all the basics that are factual, such as it is. I am more interested in the choice of Dec.25 for Christmas.
Those damn Greys they ruin everything! Them and their darn chupacabra pets.
I think I covered all the basics that are factual, such as it is. I am more interested in the choice of Dec.25 for Christmas.
The reson why Christmas is on Dec. 25th.
Essentialy The early church leaders hijacked pagan winter festvals to promote Jesus.
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and I suppose the fact that the Royal Navies entire efforts during most of the 19th century were devoted to stopping the transatlantic slave trade would have had no effect on this..if you are going to write alt his at least make it plausible and not some fevered rambling..
Hardly fevered Rambling. The fact is that had the South Won or come away with independance - legitimizing Slavery - it simply needs to:
- Form an economic alliance with those Slave trading nations in Europe to safeguard Slavery. Had Britain attacked the Slave ships of the Germans, Belgians, or Dutch, they would have provoked a World War over Slavery. The 'European Union' would have crushed the British.
- Dump 'surplus' Slaves into the Northern Economy sparking Bigotry in the North until every election was dominated by the issue of ex slaves undermining the Labour Economy. Perhaps sufficient to give rise to Unionism.
Britain had defeated Napoleon - at this stage it was the only superpower. Yes the US had some very effective modern ships but not enough of them to be a serious threat to British Naval power.
If the US had actually begun to seriously threaten British Naval supremacy, the side show in the Americas would have gone beyond the small scale battles and Wellington would have taken a hand.
During the war against Napoleon Royal Navy had demonstrated that it could effectively blockade two continents, it choked Europe to the point where it forced the countries that had capitulated to Napoleon to rebel.
So in response to this the Royal Navy would have destroyed the fledgling Confederate Navy. Sat off the coast and bombed it into a wasteland. The North would sit back regroup and launch the Second Civil war.
As for Belgium, the German states as there was no united Germany(Prussia mainly) and the Dutch would have had their economies ruined by a Royal Navy blockade of all Europe.
+1
The Confederacy could have won only one of two ways; recognition from Great Britain or wearing down the Northern will to fight. Britain spent a large part of the 19th century interdicting the slave trade.
An alliance of slave importing nations (In 1861, Brazil and the Confederacy) would have been crushed flat.
All the Best,
Kerney
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I think I covered all the basics that are factual, such as it is. I am more interested in the choice of Dec.25 for Christmas.The reson why Christmas is on Dec. 25th.
Essentialy The early church leaders hijacked pagan winter festvals to promote Jesus.
That is only part of it.
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#224) Moses Howard convinces his brother Samuel to continue with the act in 1930 after the success of the movie Soup to nuts. Along with their partner Larry Fine they gain a contract with 1934 and produce over 190 short subjects until his untimely death in 1955. Since his brother Jerry has already passed he is never given the nickname Curly and passes from any public knowledge. Joe Derita is his replacement going only by the moniker of Joe. Joe Besser having never worked in independent films with Samuel (Shemp) never meets the boys and is never a replacement.
Nyuck Nyuck Nycuk and the Curly shuffle are not part of the national lexicon.
An alliance of slave importing nations (In 1861, Brazil and the Confederacy) would have been crushed flat.
All the Best,
Kerney
Yep the Royal Navy did this to Brazil - they sent some ships to "assist" Brazil in the application of its newly introduced anti slavery laws.
#225) British righteous indignation over slavery is also applied to the Opium trade. As a result there are no Opium wars and Britain does not end up leasing Hong Kong.
196] The library of Alexandria is never burned and scholars have access to the span of Ancient history, resulting in the archaeological location of Atlantis.
But we know where Atlantis was: on the now Greek island of Santorin!
This hollow island was a volcano that erupted in 1500 BC, destroying the Atlantis people.
That location doesn't explain Cocaine being found on Egyptian mummies...(which would require trade with South America.) That's but one problem with Thera...
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That location doesn't explain Cocaine being found on Egyptian mummies...(which would require trade with South America.) That's but one problem with Thera...
196] The library of Alexandria is never burned and scholars have access to the span of Ancient history, resulting in the archaeological location of Atlantis.
But we know where Atlantis was: on the now Greek island of Santorin!
This hollow island was a volcano that erupted in 1500 BC, destroying the Atlantis people.