I've just made a new character to replace the one that just died in our Kingmaker game.
I like to stand out with my character design and background stories. Recently, however, I have come to learn that many GMs and players here on the forums think that my creations are far too outlandish and that, as a player, I have unrealistic expectations of what an "ordinary" GM would allow in their games. (What IS an "ordinary" GM anyways?)
Could those of you knowledgeable of the Kingmaker adventure path, and the Pathfinder campaign setting in general, please have a look at my character sheet and tell me if YOU PERSONALLY think it would be appropriate?
If not, explain your reasoning.
CLICK HERE TO DOWNLOAD THE CHARACTER SHEET PDF
Also, the entire party was wiped out by the Stag Lord and we all had to make new characters. The "rescue party" looks like the following:
- Dwarf Druid (air domain), specializes in running away with air spells
- Goblin Rogue (sniper), specializes in shooting from stealth
- Half-Elf Wizard (evoker), specializes in hurting the enemy
After hearing about our character concepts (but before seeing the stats) our GM seemed pretty convinced that our new party will wipe out as well. Do you think that might be the case with our party makeup?
I can provide the other character sheets too if desired.
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I've been enjoying Kingmaker, but we had a fairly well rounded party. You've got four worthwhile concepts on their own, but everyone excels at range. Your party is gong to need to work out how you are going to control the area between you and your melee threats. If your or the druid at least had a hardy animal companion like a lion fulfilling the warrior role, you'd be okay. I'm worried the druid will spend most rounds summoning animals for your protection (a slow process) and the evoker will be casting more defensive and utility spells than aggressive spells.
I'm also a bit worried about the apparent lack of Charisma. Let's just running a smooth kingdom requires a lot of smooth operators.
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The party can work. Our Kingmaker party until recently was exclusivity ranged only (apart from an animal companion).
Just make sure you have some idea on how to approach encounters in a way that works for you. Make sure the Druid learns Entangle as that spell has a huge area of effect and has saved us many a time.
You're at a high enough level not to need to worry about healing too much as you can afford wands.
I think you should be ok.
I've just made a new character to replace the one that just died in our Kingmaker game.
I like to stand out with my character design and background stories. Recently, however, I have come to learn that many GMs and players here on the forums think that my creations are far too outlandish and that, as a player, I have unrealistic expectations of what an "ordinary" GM would allow in their games. (What IS an "ordinary" GM anyways?)
My thoughts were summed up about having a ranged party. I am running it now, and diplomacy goes a long way. I am interested to see how this works out. I think you guys should sit down together, and at least decide who handles what.
Dwarf druid (Air)
Okay, that sounds good, how about...
specializes in running away with air spells
... I don't know what to say. He seriously specializes in running away?
I used to joke about a far-off kingdom that had a captive dragon in a pit under the castle, where once a new monarch was crowned, the monarch had to, once a day, trade blows with the dragon. Their goal was to then escape so that they would eventually gain enough experience to level up, and they didn't stop until they were considered high enough level to rule the kingdom. But I didn't think anyone would take me seriously...
Specializing in running away in D&D... I've seen everything.
After hearing about our character concepts (but before seeing the stats) our GM seemed pretty convinced that our new party will wipe out as well. Do you think that might be the case with our party makeup?
Yes.
You have a dwarf druid whose specialty is fleeing. I'm not even going to continue on him.
A goblin rogue whose specialty is stealthing and sniping, an extremely difficult prospect.
It also relies HEAVILY on you guys getting a prepared drop on EVERY ENCOUNTER. Otherwise this goblin is going to be wistfully fleeing, taking AoO's, spending rounds stealthing, etc, and that's assuming he can find cover-- how does he function indoors? In plains? Does he have HiPS or is he going for it?
He's basically a dead weight for 90% of the Kingmaker encounters, where he doesn't have two or three rounds or an hour to scout out each possible encounter, or where fighting in the day is preferable to at night, or where he can consistently get off his SA while remaining stealthed-- which is, in some areas of this AP, going to be impossible for him to even do. 1d4 damage. Wonderful. Does he know he's a much, much worse version of you?
An evoker, a specialist of the school of magic considered the weakest.
A ranger with the companion hunter's bond.
In my opinion, any party with two members who specialize and running and hiding is doomed to failure.
I haven't progressed as far into Kingmaker as you, but I have to say at first glance that party is screwed.
- Dwarf Druid (air domain), specializes in running away with air spells
- Goblin Rogue (sniper), specializes in shooting from stealth
- Half-Elf Wizard (evoker), specializes in hurting the enemy
- Human archer build.
One of you runs away and the other three are all only any good at ranged combat, so if any enemy surprises you, or gets in close, you are all dead meat.
The Druid: Good idea to have a druid in the wild, but someone who specializes in running away is not a good team player, period.
The Rogue: Actually not a bad concept except for the race - goblins are evil in Golarian, he won't be much help in attracting followers save ones that you really wouldn't want to have.
The Wizard: Not a bad idea, evocation is reckoned as weak but if your DM fudges saves on the save-or-X spells they suddenly get a lot better.
The Archer: With everyone else in the party, you need a tank, not a Robin Hood. And the background ... sorry, I think spriggans would have just eaten the kid, period.
It looks to me as if your party is trying to optimise against the foe that killed you last time to the exclusion of all else. Did it not occur to you that if the enemy were that good ranged you should be getting in close? A barbarian melee specialist would be much better, or even a monk.
The essence of tactics: Don't try and beat somebody at their game, make them play yours and beat them at that!
I discovered one thing at your Charakter. Your AC is 20 not 22. You didn't calculated the maximum Dex Bonus of your Breastplate
As upset as I am to hear my AC is going down, thank you nonetheless for pointing it out to me.
A goblin rogue whose specialty is stealthing and sniping, an extremely difficult prospect.
His Stealth modifier is +31 at 4th-level. Even with a -20 penalty, I think he might do okay provided he isn't out in the open.
An evoker, a specialist of the school of magic considered the weakest.
I am quickly learning that the overriding opinion of these forums is that "every character sucks" if it isn't a power build.
A ranger with the companion hunter's bond. ...
I've been on the fence about that ability, expeiclally since we don't have much in the way of true damage dealers (if we had a pair of fighters or something I would feel much better).
I was learning towards a vulture animal companion or something with pounce, but the GM made it clear that I have a history of slowing the game down with animal companions/eidolons/familiars/guard dogs/summons/etc. He has accused me of always having a companion creature at hand for no other reason than to maximize my "economy of actions" each round (which he views as munchkinism). Though I don't agree with that observation (I'm playing normal characters), he did make a valid point in saying that when I have a companion creature, I am far less concerned about teamwork with the party and more focused on teamwork with the companion creature.
He hasn't forbiddan me from taking an animal companion, but he's made it clear he would disaprove and maybe even rib me for it.
You guys are hosed.
Your character sheet looks really slick. Nice job.
I think your concept is fine adventuring-wise. I also ran a half-orc Ranger with a bounty-hunter concept, though I ran more of a switch-hitter concept splitting my abilities between archery and a falchion. This let me act fulfill dual roles as both an archer and a front line fighter.
I would recommend getting rid of hunter's bond and substituting an animal companion. I think you could take a horse as a companion. In my campaign we've had a few opportunities for mounted combat, and I'm actually considering taking Mounted Combat and swapping my wolf for a horse (or just waiting for my wolf to become large).
Larger picture, while your ranger makes a great adventuring archer, his poor Charisma is going to potentially hurt when you move into the kingdom building portion of the adventure. If the rest of your party has dump-statted Cha then you guys could be signficantly hamstringing yourselves for the rest of the AP.
If your GM has already discussed kingdom building and it won't be giving out spoilers, then I can go into more specifics as to roles.
Another question - how are your party's relations with various NPC's? Building relationships and making allies is, from my experience, critical to success in this AP.
Overall, my current impression is your new party may be okay for the Stag Lord, but probably won't be successful long term.
I am quickly learning that the overriding opinion of these forums is that "every character sucks" if it isn't a power build.
Not so, RD. Given past reports of your DM's response to your sorcerer Hama using save-or-suck spells, I think the evoker is probably a good bet. A Conjurer may do better (summoned monsters can even the odds really fast) but this one isn't bad.
Also, the problems with these characters is not the 'power' of the builds, it's the theme. All of them are best at range, which is great if your foe obliges you by staying at a distance, and sucks if the don't.
If you really want to stick with the raised-by-spriggans idea, I would suggest a barbarian or mobile fighter using a halberd (the spriggan's favourite weapon, two handed and with reach - and if you REALLY want to go to town, take a level of fey-bloodline sorcerer and use the enlarge spell for added spriggan goodness, and you need the charisma anyway). Use your superior mobility to get in close to the foe and cleave them to bits, or block them from hurting your friends. It's what your party needs, I think.
I've decided to fill in some of the blanks so that I can better help you help me. Also, if you find anymore errors, please don't hesitate to let me know.
The following links lead to downloadable character sheet PDFs, much like the previous one above.
Aero (4th-level dwarf sky warden): No real background yet. Hopes to build a forest kingdom rather than a traditional one. I would also like to clarify that he made a point of having a few means of escaping an encounter that goes poorly. He does not run away for the sake of running away.
Foerth (4th-level human archer bounty hunter): See character sheet for background. Minor updates over previous link have been included.
Iroh (4th-level half-elf evoker): See character sheet for background. It might be worth noting that the character, Neon, mentioned in his back story is my old character who perished at the hands of the Stag Lord. Also, he is a scholar who studies the red planet, Akiton, and its violent people (he believes it will make him a better evoker).
Rufus (4th-level goblin spy): A "civilized" goblin who has been living in human cities for some years now under the disguise of a halfling. Was forced to flee the normal goblin life after bandits destroyed his tribe. Comes off as a trouble-making street urchin of a kid with serious A.D.D.
They all look fundamentally reasonable builds. My only comments are:
The Evoker - too much focus on hurting things with his spells, not enough on battlefield control or utility. He at least should have sleep or colour spray.
The Druid - likewise. What's he doing with obscuring mist when you are all missile specialists? He should be taking entangle four times instead and using a wand of cure light wounds for your healing.
I looked at your Spriggan concept, and here's what I did with it.
Barbarian 3/Sorcerer 1 (Fey bloodline)
Spells: 0-level - Daze, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic. 1st level - Enlarge Person, Shield.
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (halberd), Cleave.
Sticking with the same scores but rearranging:
Str 20 (+5), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 12 (+1), Wis 7 (–2), Cha 13 (+1)
Now this guy is fast, hard hitting and able to use magic to enhance himself. Talk to your DM nicely and he might let your +1 halberd be one that enlarges with you (say for +500gp cost). That gives you 2d8 base damage when enlarged, +1 for magic, +9 for strength {normally +7 but increased by size} and +3 for power attack, and you can add rage on top for at least another +3. Use your reach and mobility to slaughter those bandits ...
Traits (can't recall if you had these but if you do): Magical Knack (sorcerer) if you can get it.
Equipment: Spriggan's +1 Halberd (2,810 gp), +1 chain shirt (1,250 gp), Masterwork Might (+5) Composite Longbow (900 gp), 1000gp left for consumables, party items etc. given standard wealth.
Edit: All your builds are OK, but they aren't really designed thinking about Kingmaker, or the way they will interact.
If you stay with Ranger, I would propose the opposite of everyone else on the Animal Companion. I find mine to be worthless, barely worth the 1 hit it sustains before getting slaughtered without doing damage.
All the builds look fine as far as adventuring goes. Level of optimization may be debatable, but none of the characters appear at first glance to be a liability. However, you guys are lacking a "face" character with some Charisma. This will hurt. Maybe the Evoker could shift his build over to a Sorceror?
alk to your DM nicely and he might let your +1 halberd be one that enlarges with you (say for +500gp cost). That gives you 2d8 base damage when enlarged
Why would he need to do that. It's already part of the Enlarge Person spell.
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As a frequent player of Goblins, i'm going to have to dispute that Stealth-
+4 ranks.
+3 trained.
+6 dexterity.
+4 racial.
stealthy feat- +2.
skill focus (stealth)- +3
small size- +4
4+3+6+4+2+3+4= +26
Impressive, but not 31- please point out if i'm missing anything.
Sniping from stealth is a poor tactic for a rogue as they will still rarely get their sneak attack damage- better done as a fighter or ranger IMHO. The rogue is your least effective character.
As for the Kingdom building stuff- lack of charisma isn't actually too much of a problem, there are plenty of kingdom roles and at least two for every stat (one for Con). It would have been good for you to have one charisma based character for Ruler though. Your starting at 4th level- why not get your Half-Elf player to play a Sorceror instead of a Wizard? The hard three level slog to 2nd Level spells is skipped, so its what I would go for.
Your Ranger looks good, ranged combat is a particular asset in this first chapter.
The Druid makes me 'meh' for some reason. Nothing really stands out, but his standard spell selection isn't great.
Here's one piece of info I didn't see presented (I might have missed it, sorry if I did): How ruthless is your DM?
My players stay out.
I'm prepping to run Kingmaker, and my group isn't exactly built for conquest but rather telling a story. And that's how I'm going to run it. I plan on making some encounters easier because I know they are not built for mass scale genocide.
Your DM is obviously ok with TPKing the party. To survive, I'd recommend a few changes to the party:
evoker -> enchantment focused sorcerer. You won't be dealing the damage, but you will be adding help to your party every turn.
druid -> cleric. Druids can heal, but clerics are better, simply put.
rogue -> Not Goblin. Goblins are an underpowered race. Sure he's stealthy, but that's about all the goblin gives you.
ranger -> go for the animal companion, A wolf will be an extra combatant on the battlefield. And get yourself a belt of con ASAP. you'll need the hp.
But honestly, my best recommendation would be to talk with the DM. he might need to make some changes in his style.
alk to your DM nicely and he might let your +1 halberd be one that enlarges with you (say for +500gp cost). That gives you 2d8 base damage when enlargedWhy would he need to do that. It's already part of the Enlarge Person spell.
Fair enough - I wasn't entirely sure it would.
One recomendation might be to have the druid often sub in summon natures ally spells. If the party which is pretty much all range cant avoid the enemies with manueverability and since the wizard doesnt have much in the way of battlefield control, some summoned beasties would go a long way to keeping you guys in one piece.
As a frequent player of Goblins, i'm going to have to dispute that Stealth-
+4 ranks.
+3 trained.
+6 dexterity.
+4 racial.
stealthy feat- +2.
skill focus (stealth)- +3
small size- +44+3+6+4+2+3+4= +26
Impressive, but not 31- please point out if i'm missing anything.
You missed Cloak of the Elvenkind. I did the first time I added it up as well.
This goblin rogue would be extremely useful in an AP with an urban focus. My gut is he's overly specialized for Kingmaker, and from what I've seen, if I ran a rogue I'd go with human or half-elf and split my build between social skill guy and stealthy scout.
I was learning towards a vulture animal companion or something with pounce, but the GM made it clear that I have a history of slowing the game down with animal companions/eidolons/familiars/guard dogs/summons/etc. He has accused me of always having a companion creature at hand for no other reason than to maximize my "economy of actions" each round (which he views as munchkinism).
Why don't you let the GM run your animal companion in combat then?
As someone who played a ranger as a front-line fighter against his will, let me just say that you are totally hosed unless the druid's companion and the druid take that task on. When this crew goes in dungeons, and there are some, you will be in panic mode by round two.
A goblin rogue whose specialty is stealthing and sniping, an extremely difficult prospect.His Stealth modifier is +31 at 4th-level. Even with a -20 penalty, I think he might do okay provided he isn't out in the open.
... Wait, what? ... How? Level 4 so +4, +3 trained, +5 stat, +4 small... for 9+3+4=16. Cloak of the Elvenkind for +5 competence for 21... and Skill Focus for 24.... and Stealthy or w/e for +26. I'll go out in a limb and say he's wearing +1 shadow leather armor? Shadow and Cloak of the Elvenkind both give +5 competence; they don't stack.
As a person who has played Kingmaker, I can guarantee you he's going to have entire combats where he can do nothing. Since you don't have an animal companion, he has no one to flank with unless you go into melee... but to be honest, the wizard will probably be his flank friend, since....
An evoker, a specialist of the school of magic considered the weakest.I am quickly learning that the overriding opinion of these forums is that "every character sucks" if it isn't a power build.
I honestly consider the evoker a well-rounded and fun character to play, but you have to understand that right now his most powerful attacks are either melee-centric, painfully weak or scorching ray. And since he's a wizard, he doesn't have very much bang for his buck-- maybe 1 or 2 of each spell and he doesn't have much room for the good stuff, either. In the party with three ranged specialists, the evoker has to mix it up in melee to get his other strong spells off-- like shocking grasp or burning hands. That's just begging for death-- he's going to end up being the full-attack target and party "tank" more often than not.
Once an evoker hits 5th, it's all uphill. Fireball makes them invaluable. Greater invisibility means that they don't have to worry about provoking when they rock on up there for touch spells. Fly means they move fast and in the Z-axis. But until then, evokers, and even _wizards_ in general, suck.
I think general consensus is that while your archer build is OK, your party needs a melee character more, unless your druid sacrifices his animal companion and all his spells to summon nature's ally to hold the bad guys at bay, and that isn't going to last very long. Given that you gave his specialisation as 'running away' I wouldn't hold out much hope.
While the other guys in your party are OK, they aren't that hot either, because they clearly won't bring out the best in one another or out of the concept of Kingmaker.
So we need more "melee" and more "face?"
I'll see about talking to the other players about it.
So we need more "melee" and more "face?"
I'll see about talking to the other players about it.
That's a good idea. It's easy to try and jump on the bandwagon of whatever tactic beat your last party, or whatever they seemed to lack, but really you need to be well-balanced and rounded. In Kingmaker, you need a strong 'leader' who is going to later be 'king', and that means decent charisma.
A paladin can easily be both the melee and the face of your party.
Specializing in running away in D&D... I've seen everything.
Back in Second Edition, 'losing' an encounter (such as by running away) was worth 10% of its normal XP. This, combined with our 5th level party turning a named Ba'atezu's dramatic monologue into combat through rash actions and stupidity, led to our official party motto: "How many Balor do we have to run away from to gain a level?"
A tactic that has worked surprisingly well and long to 'level-up' subordinate NPCs, cohorts, hirelings, mercenaries, and other hangers-on. The rule is anybody who starts the combat on the map gets a share of the XP for the battle, so when our 10th level party is accompanied by that guy's stepson War:2 and this guy's ward Ari:3 and that girl's squire Ari:1 and my two-dozen mercenary War:1's, they all go on the map, roll initiative, and then run away like brave, brave Sir Robin. On a good day (or against weak opponents) they get a shot off first, then run away.
This approach usually leads to 50% casualties by the time the NPCs are high enough level to hold their own, but it works.