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Hi all,
After starting a scenario-like campaign and designing my character, I came across poisons and got frustrated with their high prices. Since they are only one-shot items with low chances of success, I can't help but wonder why the prices have been set up so high?
Sure, buying these poisons isn't a regular deal and must be smuggled, but that's not the issue here. You could still create poisons but due to their given market price they are far from being realistic.
For instance the Small Centipede Poison is extremely mild, and extremely weak as well. A maximum of 4 dexterity damage can be achieved only if the target somehow manages to fail a Fortitude save DC 11 four times in a row.
Simply: the poisons in Pathfinder RPG work better, but their effectiveness wasn't considered when pricing them. I'm trying to device a formula based on the poison's type, DC, Frequency, Effect, and the required number of cures. Any advice or idea is appreciated!
Thanks!
I agree and would be interested is the results. High prices and low chance of success unsually keeps characters from using them, unless poisons are loot. Maybe there also should be rules about "harvesting" poisons from poisonous creatures...
Step 1) Get someone with an animal companion (or summon spells that can summon something poisonous).
Step 2) Get empty vials.
Step 3) Get something to use to collect the poison (one of those things they put snake fangs through to squeeze it into the jars, for example, or whatever works for whatever sort of poisonous thing you have access to.
Step 4) Fill vials.
But yeah, being able to buy/harvest them cheaply without having to resort to the above would be preferable. >_> <_<
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Step 1) Get someone with an animal companion (or summon spells that can summon something poisonous).
Step 2) Get empty vials.
Step 3) Get something to use to collect the poison (one of those things they put snake fangs through to squeeze it into the jars, for example, or whatever works for whatever sort of poisonous thing you have access to.
Step 4) Fill vials.
But yeah, being able to buy/harvest them cheaply without having to resort to the above would be preferable. >_> <_<
Having a mechanic for venom harvesting is a good one. Maybe a simple survival check (DC equal to poison's DC) to extract it properly.
Still the pricing buggers me. I'm puzzled by the different modifiers and how they should affect the price. For instance there are the following notable modifiers: Type, DC, Onset, Frequency, Effect, and Cure.
Putting types in order from least dangerous to most dangerous, I'd put them like this: ingested, injury, contact, inhaled. Inhaled poisons would best be used as splash weapons, thus the danger.
A high DC is more dangerous, obviously. I'm not sure whether the curve should be linear or exponential, like (DC-10)^2.
In combat a minute's onset will make it near useless. A long onset time should definitely decrease the price, but not by much.
Frequency. Long-lasting, quick poison is deadlier in a fight, so 1 round/6 rounds takes the #1 spot.
Effect is, of course, the most notable of all these. Most poisons give ability damage, so that's the base line where the price comes from. I'd put Constitution damage above all.
Most poisons are cured with 1 save. Some more potent are cured with 2 saves. They are already considerably better, but only if the DC is high enough. So it should somehow be tied to it.
There are rules in Complete Adventurer for Craft(Poisonmaking), the basics of it is that instead of converting to silver pieces for the work, you keep it at gold pieces and just work that way. It works pretty well.
Also ....if your DM is sharp he will see that you are working a poison build and throw you a few bones. I took craft poison on my last Rogue and often found I didnt need it after a few levels as my DM would sprinkle in a few doses of poisons better than I could craft throught the game.
I do however agree that for single use items they are wicked expensive to buy...
It should be noted that the price for poisons probably are so high because there's no investment except wealth in them. You don't use feats, skill ranks, or anything else to create them. Some of the poisons seem decently priced. Comparing a dose of Purple Worm Poison to a Scroll of Bestow Curse:
Purple Worm Poison
Against a CR8 enemy with good fort, average -3,41 to strength after 3 turns. 40 chance of no effect. Average -1,2 first turn.
Against a CR8 enemy with bad fort, average -4,35 to strength after 3 turns. 20 chance of no effect. Average -1,6 first turn.
Requires hitting the target.
Takes time to work.
Bestow Curse
Against a CR8 enemy with good will, average -1.2 to strength. 80 chance of no effect.
Against a CR8 enemy with bad will, average -2.4 to strength. 60 chance of no effect.
Requires being a caster.
Takes an in-combat standard action (poison might be prepared before battle).
Now, Bestow Curse as a scroll isn't exactly top choice - but it's still something you're glad to find as loot, and the poison clearly outshines the curse IMO. The damage is much higher, and it's far better for the action economy as you can just apply it to your dagger/whatever before combat.
While I agree many of the poisons are overpriced, some are really decent. Aside from the Purple Worm poison, drow sleep poison are so cheap that you can safely apply it to both your daggers before most combats. Not to talk about inhaled or ingested poisons - you can apply several doses at the same time. Poisons can be a useful tool in any shady characters toolbox, but you can't really build a character around it. If you want to do so, I'd recommend implementing a few feats that improve poisons. That way, they're still only situationally useful for most people but they become effective for those that actually dedicate themselves to it. One feat that halves the crafting price of poisons, on that increases the DC, one that gives Poison Use, and maybe some high-tier feat that forces an extra save to cure the poison.
If one just lowers the price of poisons, you can count on every bad guy using poison on most every attack.
It should be noted that the price for poisons probably are so high because there's no investment except wealth in them. You don't use feats, skill ranks, or anything else to create them. Some of the poisons seem decently priced. Comparing a dose of Purple Worm Poison to a Scroll of Bestow Curse:
Purple Worm Poison
Against a CR8 enemy with good fort, average -3,41 to strength after 3 turns. 40 chance of no effect. Average -1,2 first turn.
Against a CR8 enemy with bad fort, average -4,35 to strength after 3 turns. 20 chance of no effect. Average -1,6 first turn.
Requires hitting the target.
Takes time to work.Bestow Curse
Against a CR8 enemy with good will, average -1.2 to strength. 80 chance of no effect.
Against a CR8 enemy with bad will, average -2.4 to strength. 60 chance of no effect.
Requires being a caster.
Takes an in-combat standard action (poison might be prepared before battle).Now, Bestow Curse as a scroll isn't exactly top choice - but it's still something you're glad to find as loot, and the poison clearly outshines the curse IMO. The damage is much higher, and it's far better for the action economy as you can just apply it to your dagger/whatever before combat.
While I agree many of the poisons are overpriced, some are really decent. Aside from the Purple Worm poison, drow sleep poison are so cheap that you can safely apply it to both your daggers before most combats. Not to talk about inhaled or ingested poisons - you can apply several doses at the same time. Poisons can be a useful tool in any shady characters toolbox, but you can't really build a character around it. If you want to do so, I'd recommend implementing a few feats that improve poisons. That way, they're still only situationally useful for most people but they become effective for those that actually dedicate themselves to it. One feat that halves the crafting price of poisons, on that increases the DC, one that gives Poison Use, and maybe some high-tier feat that forces an extra save to cure the poison.
If...
It's not necessarily the cost that is such a problem, its the cost combined with the amount of time needed. An alchemist attempting to make one of the more expensive poisons (forget which it was 3000gp) with a total of 30 Craft(Alchemy) after taking 10, was going to take 58.8 weeks to create 1 application of the poison. If sped up adding +5 to the DC, it would have taken 22 weeks to produce 1 application of the poison. It's just not practical for a character to create.
It should be noted that the price for poisons probably are so high because there's no investment except wealth in them. You don't use feats, skill ranks, or anything else to create them. Some of the poisons seem decently priced. Comparing a dose of Purple Worm Poison to a Scroll of Bestow Curse:
Purple Worm Poison
Against a CR8 enemy with good fort, average -3,41 to strength after 3 turns. 40 chance of no effect. Average -1,2 first turn.
Against a CR8 enemy with bad fort, average -4,35 to strength after 3 turns. 20 chance of no effect. Average -1,6 first turn.
Requires hitting the target.
Takes time to work.Bestow Curse
Against a CR8 enemy with good will, average -1.2 to strength. 80 chance of no effect.
Against a CR8 enemy with bad will, average -2.4 to strength. 60 chance of no effect.
Requires being a caster.
Takes an in-combat standard action (poison might be prepared before battle).Now, Bestow Curse as a scroll isn't exactly top choice - but it's still something you're glad to find as loot, and the poison clearly outshines the curse IMO. The damage is much higher, and it's far better for the action economy as you can just apply it to your dagger/whatever before combat.
While I agree many of the poisons are overpriced, some are really decent. Aside from the Purple Worm poison, drow sleep poison are so cheap that you can safely apply it to both your daggers before most combats. Not to talk about inhaled or ingested poisons - you can apply several doses at the same time. Poisons can be a useful tool in any shady characters toolbox, but you can't really build a character around it. If you want to do so, I'd recommend implementing a few feats that improve poisons. That way, they're still only situationally useful for most people but they become effective for those that actually dedicate themselves to it. One feat that halves the crafting price of poisons, on that increases the DC, one that gives Poison Use, and maybe some high-tier feat that forces an extra save to cure the poison.
If...
I would argue you have to have poison use for them to be effective regardless of price.
Yes, the time is a real problem. Crafting poisons are hard as hell, I agree there. Might be worth to reconsider the rules there though, since it's an alchemical process, you should probably be able to create a whole batch of doses at the same time. And since most of the cost is from the materials being illegal or some such, you could reduce the time even further. There I am in full agreement.
But I don't think you need to have Poison Use to use poisons effectively, as long as you don't try to apply the poisons in combat. Do it a while before, and should you accidently poison yourself you can usually stop it with a spell or so. A wand of neutralize poison might be useful, if you don't have a cleric who can cast it.
A house rule but.
All poisons without a divine component are alchemical products. An alchemist can make 1000gp of stuff a day. Baring poison making exceptions (which I actually encourage) an alchemist can make up to 1000gp of doses in a day given the tools and a quiet, safe workshop.
Sigurd