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Hi, I'm working with a PC to create a PrC for his monk character. His goal is to increase his defense/utility and to have more options, he also wanted us to work in some stuff from the Tome of Battle, which is where the counters and Ki stances come in, they're all pathfinder re-writes of ToB maneuvers and stances. Here is what we've come up with so far. I'm looking for review of abilities for balance, especially at higher levels, I don't want him to be at a lower point then he would be as a monk at the same level. Also I've lost all creative juices and need ideas on abilities for levels 7, 8, and 9. So I can take all suggestions, and as the player wants to take his first level now, I'd like to get it as polished as I can ASAP. Also the player and I are having a discussion of what monk abilities should continue to progress. The only one we're 100% sure on is flurry since that gives him more attacks to forgo for counters.
If its a stance or a counter, it's from the ToB just modified slightly to work with the system I set up, so I don't really need an opinion on whether or not it's good, just whether or not it's balanced at the level you're getting it, in which case if it's not I'll just pick different maneuvers. But everything else is up for discussion whole hog.
Some monks forgo the martial training of their brothers and choose a path of spiritual wholeness. They study the flow of ki through the body and work towards enhancing it, learning to shape it, channel it, and even block the flow ki in others. They begin this training by becoming less outwardly offensive, by taking a defensive stance they are then able to focus on the energies flowing around them and by using that awareness, respond to any attempt to break that flow of energy. When they reach the penultimate state, a spiritual focus can never completely deplete their ki energy and can shape it in multiple ways.
Alignment: Spiritual Focus are always lawful, it takes rigid self control to shape and manipulate the flow of ki, however they can vary in all other aspects of their personality, however most tend towards neutrality.
Hit Die d8
Lawful Alignment
Ki pool
Acrobatics 5 ranks
The Spiritual Focus class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Knowledge (History), Sense Motive (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skill Ranks at Each Level 4 + int modifier
lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +1 +1 +1 Flurry of Blows, Countersense, Ki Growth, Ki Focus
2nd +1 +1 +1 +1 Ki Surge, Counter: Disrupting Blow
3rd +2 +2 +2 +2 Ki Blast
4th +3 +2 +2 +2 Ki Stance: Step of the Wind, Counter: Scorpion Parry
5th +3 +3 +3 +3 Ki Surge, Spiritual Reactions
6th +4 +3 +3 +3 Block Chakras, Counter: Scything Blade
7th +5 +4 +4 +4 Ki Stance: Hearing the Air,
8th +6 +4 +4 +4 Counter: Comet Throw,
9th +6 +5 +5 +5 Ki Surge,
10th +7 +5 +5 +5 Ki Mastery, Ki Stance: Aura of Perfect Order, Counter: Tombstone Strike
Flurry of Blows: A spiritual focus adds his focus level with his monk level to determine how many attacks he can make during a flurry of blows.
Counter Sense: A spiritual focus may choose to forgo an attack during his round. He must declare which attack he is forgoing during his action. For the rest of the round, if he is attacked he may make an immediate counter attack after the attack is resolved. This counter attack (with the exception of scorpion parry) does not interrupt the attack that caused it but may interrupt further actions the enemy would take. He can make a number of counter attacks up to the number of attacks he gave up. This counter attack uses the attack bonus of the attack that was forgone as well as any relevant modifiers (power attack, fighting defensively, etc.), starting with the attack that had the highest bonus and ending with the counters with the lowest bonus. In addition a Spiritual Focus may declare fighting defensively and forgo all attacks while still gaining the fighting defensively bonus (normally you have to make an attack to gain the fighting defensive bonus), when doing so he will still take the penalty to attacks on any counterattacks made. If a counter attack requires a specific action, the monk must have had the ability to make that action when he gave up the attack. For example if he gave up one attack of a flurry he could not then use a counter that required a standard action be forgone.
Ki Growth: A spiritual focus has a much stronger connection to his chakras, spiritual focus levels stack with monk levels for the purpose of determining your ki pool. The formula for determining ki points also changes to monk level + wisdom modifier.
Ki Focus: A spiritual focus can channel the chaotic energy of a battle to replenish their ki, while in combat a spiritual focus can take a move equivalent action to replenish a ki point.
Ki Surge: Once per round a spiritual focus may spend an additional ki point to lessen the action type of a ki ability by 1 step using the following graph: full round - standard - move - swift - free. You cannot reduce an ability more than one step even if you can reduce more than one per round.
At 5th level a spiritual focus can do this twice per round by spending 1 point for the first and 2 points for the second.
At 9th level a spiritual focus can surge as many times as he can afford to pay each time he uses this ability it costs an additional ki point (3 for the third, 4 for the 4th etc.).
Counter: At 2nd level the Spiritual Focus learns to spot the flow of ki in those around them. When an opponent ki flow would disrupt the Focus’ own ki flow the Focus can instead redirect the opponents flow of ki as it makes contact with his own resulting in viscious counters that are even more devastating than normal attacks. Counters can only be used with attacks that result from the countersense ability, spending ki to perform a counter requires no action although the counter itself may require a specific type of action to use.
Disrupting Blow: The first counter a Focus learns is to temporarily halt the flow of the opponent’s ki. This leaves the opponent momentarily disoriented and unable to move. As part of this maneuver pay 2 ki points and make a melee attack. If this attack hits your target takes normal damage and must make a will save (DC 15 + your str mod) or be unable to take any action for 1 round. The target does not suffer any other drawbacks or penalties. He can still make Attacks of opportunity but is unable to take immediate actions until his next turn.
Scorpion Parry: The second counter a Focus learns is the ability to predict the opponent’s moves by the subtle variations in the flow of their ki, knowing where their blow is aimed allows you to redirect it where it wasn’t intended. As part of this maneuver pay 1 ki point and make an opposed attack roll. If your foe’s result is higher, he attacks you as normal. If your result is higher, you can choose a creature adjacent to you and within your opponent’s threatened area. The chosen creature is the new target of your foes attack. Use your enemies original attack roll result to determine if he strikes the new target.
Scything Blade: The third counter a Focus learns is to channel the opponent’s ki into a preternatural burst of speed for himself that can be used to against unsuspecting targets. As part of this maneuver pay 3 ki points and make a melee attack. If the attack hits you can immediately make a free attack at your highest attack bonus against a different enemy you threaten. You can only gain one free attack each time you initiate this maneuver, regardless of how many successful attacks you make in the round.
Comet Throw: The fourth counter a Focus learns is to read the flow of ki in an opponents body to learn how he shifts his weight and balances. Using this knowledge a focus can then use the opponents own equilibrium against him, pulling him off balance and sending him flying. As part of this maneuver pay 4 ki points and make a CMB check against your opponent, this CMB does not provoke an AoO. This resolves as a trip attempt against your enemy. You gain a +4 bonus on the CMB. If you succeed in tripping your foe you can throw him up to 10ft away from you in a direction of your choice. You select your enemy’s destination square. The target falls prone in that space and takes 4d6 points of falling damage. For every 5 points by which you beat the CMD, you gain an additional 5 feet or throw range. You can throw your opponent into a space occupied by a second foe. In this case, the opponent in the target square also takes 4d6 non-lethal damage and is knocked prone. A Reflex save (DC 14 + your Str mod) halves this damage and allows the second target to remain standing. The thrown creature then falls prone in a clear space of your choice adjacent to the second target.
Tombstone Strike: The final counter a Focus learns is to use the opponents ki in a blow that stops the opponents heart. As part of this maneuver pay 6 ki points and make a melee attack using a standard action. If this attack hits, you deal 2d6 points of Constitution damage in addition to your normal damage.
Ki Blast: As a standard action a Spiritual Focus can channel his ki into a sphere of force that he sends hurtling towards the enemy. A spiritual focus may spend an amount of ki equal to his focus level to perform this maneuver he makes a ranged touch attack. If successful, he deals 1d8 damage for each point of ki spent. The ki blast has a range of 25 feet + 5 feet per two levels, monk levels and spiritual focus levels stack for the purposes of determining range. For the cost of 2 additional points the monk may also use one of his daily stunning fist uses to modify the blast as if it was an unarmed strike.
Ki Stance: As long as a spiritual focus has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he may enter a ki stance as a swift action. Ki stances are active as long as the Spiritual Focus remains standing and in combat (falling prone or fleeing ends a stance), although a focus may only have one stance active at any time.
Step of the Wind: The first stance a Focus learns is a meditative stance that allows the Focus to easily pick out steady spots in rough terrain and to gauge how an opponent distributes his weight on uneven footing to give yourself an advantage. While you are in this stance, you ignore penalties to speed, movement, or skill checks associated with movement incurred by moving through difficult terrain. If you attack an opponent standing on difficult terrain while you are in this stance, and if that opponent takes a movement penalty for moving through difficult terrain, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls, and a +2 bonus on CMB vs. bull rush or trip attempts against that enemy. You also gain the same bonus to your CMD vs. trip or bull rush attempts that opponent makes against you.
Hearing the Air: An opponent can conceal himself from your eyes, but he cannot conceal the flow of Ki around him. By entering this meditative stance you are acutely aware of the flow of Ki around you, allowing you to pinpoint the presence of concealed foes. While you are in this stance, you gain Blindsense out to 30ft and a +5 bonus on perception checks involving non-construct creatures.
Aura of Perfect Order: While in this meditative stance a Spiritual Focus is a sea of calm in an ocean of chaos. This stance allows you to treat a potential d20 result as an 11. You must decide to use this ability immediately before rolling the d20. You can use this ability once per round. Using this ability does not take an action. You simply decide to invoke it before rolling a d20 for any reason, such as an attack, save, or check.
Spiritual Reactions: As an immediate action following a saving throw a spiritual focus may spend 4 ki points to reroll any saving throw. This roll must be made after the initial roll but before results are adjudicated.
Block Chakras: As a free action on a successful strike a spiritual focus may spend 1 ki point. If he does so the enemy struck looses one random supernatural or spell like ability for the round. By spending two points he may instead target a specific ability, but the enemy gains a fortitude save equal to 10 + spiritual focus level + cha modifier. If the monk targets an ability that is not supernatural or spell like, or if the the recipient of this effect has no abilities of those types the effect is wasted.
Ki Mastery: The spiritual focus has mastered his ki. Any ability that says “As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool” now operates even if there are no more points. Whenever the spiritual focus uses his ki focus ability he regains 2 points instead of one. He also adds his wisdom modifier to his ki blast damage and deals an additional point of damage per ki point spent (for example if he spends 5 ki points on a ki blast he deals 5d8+5+wis mod damage) and is no longer limited in how many points he may spend on this ability. Any ki effect with a listed duration has its duration doubled.
ARG Postmonster ate it... give me a minute and I'll retype it.
Not as eloquent as my first typeout lol
This allows the SF to still be viable during their initiative, avoiding the I give up all of my attacks to counter, and nothing attacking him scenarios. This also frees you up from having to attack him, regardless of your baddies tactics, to allow him to be useful.
More to come as I continue on.
I would drop Ki Focus to 2nd lvl (1st level is kind of ability heavy), and drop Ki Surge to 3rd.
Why not just change this to a counter that uses stunning fist(stun only effect) that doesn't use up a use/day? It's basically a weaker version of that... I would hesitate to use this counter when Stunning fist is a stronger option.
Yeah I've been heavily considering adding AC bonus progression. that one just makes sense, I was just worried about giving him too much.
If you change the counter sense ability as detailed above he won't need the FoB progression, and then the AC is not too much bonus.
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** spoiler omitted **
More to come as I continue on.
The problem with this is that it gives him full attacks and then AoOs, and then counters. which makes him even more of attack beast. I really like the giving up attacks to make counters mechanic, and it keeps him in line with his proper power level. Yeah it makes his actual round a little weaker, but it also allows him to do more, and have more options.
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The first counter a Focus learns is to temporarily halt the flow of the opponent’s ki. This leaves the opponent momentarily disoriented and unable to move. As part of this maneuver pay 2 ki points and make a melee attack. If this attack hits your target takes normal damage and must make a will save (DC 15 + your str mod) or be unable to take any action for 1 round. The target does not suffer any other drawbacks or penalties. He can still make Attacks of opportunity but is unable to take immediate actions until his next turn."
Why not just change this to a counter that uses stunning fist(stun only effect) that doesn't use up a use/day? It's basically a weaker version of that... I would hesitate to use this counter when Stunning fist is a stronger option.
1 your posts aren't that long, you don't have to spoil them lol
2 yeah I see what you're saying here, and it makes sense. But the point of counters and stances was to give him stuff from the Tome of Battle, that is a Tome of Battle Maneuver. I know it's altered slightly, but in essence it's the same maneuver. If I change it, then the player's not getting what he wanted.
2 yeah I see what you're saying here, and it makes sense. But the point of counters and stances was to give him stuff from the Tome of Battle, that is a Tome of Battle Maneuver. I know it's altered slightly, but in essence it's the same maneuver. If I change it, then the player's not getting what he wanted.
I'd explain to him he already has an ability like this in stunning fist, and the utility of the manuever would be better if it was a stun attack rather then the manuever as written. I mean for the cost of 2 ki points - versus X-times stunning fist per day, I'd find out quickly that I get more use out of my ki by not using the ability, and just utilizing stunning fists for the counter strikes since I can use anything that requires the action.
The problem with this is that it gives him full attacks and then AoOs, and then counters. which makes him even more of attack beast. I really like the giving up attacks to make counters mechanic, and it keeps him in line with his proper power level. Yeah it makes his actual round a little weaker, but it also allows him to do more, and have more options.** spoiler omitted **
More to come as I continue on.
Then I would add a contigency line, if no counters are used in the corse of the round the monk may then take action as if his initiative was 1, but not changing his initiative for the next round.
This removes the "I've declared all of my attacks counters, and nothing attacked me" waste of a round.
Also with changes in counter sense + No FoB, he'd really be keeping up with the melee people IMO.
Take the prestige class at 6, your FoB ability is at 3/3. As you gain higher levels that stays static at 3/3 so it becomes a non isssue. Also you need to take into account that the monks unarmed damage is not going to change unless he takes more monk levels, thus lowering his damage output at higher levels. I'm no math expert so I'm not going to attempt to break down the averages on to hit/damage ratios, but his BAB will be less then the fighters, so he will hit less often.
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2 yeah I see what you're saying here, and it makes sense. But the point of counters and stances was to give him stuff from the Tome of Battle, that is a Tome of Battle Maneuver. I know it's altered slightly, but in essence it's the same maneuver. If I change it, then the player's not getting what he wanted.I'd explain to him he already has an ability like this in stunning fist, and the utility of the manuever would be better if it was a stun attack rather then the manuever as written. I mean for the cost of 2 ki points - versus X-times stunning fist per day, I'd find out quickly that I get more use out of my ki by not using the ability, and just utilizing stunning fists for the counter strikes since I can use anything that requires the action.
That's actually not true, but I see how you got that from my write up. The intent is that the only special attacks he can use during counters are counter powers. But that he has to give up a specified action to use some. I.E. he can't use a flurry of blows to make six attacks during his turn, forgoing only one, and then as a counter use tombstone strike.
the counterattack has to be a normal attack that he can modify with counters. If you can think up a way to write the ability up to make that more clear, I'd appreciate it.
OtoH I am giving serious consideration to going with your suggestion on that one and allowing him to pay ki during counters to use SF without using a daily use. That would however require him to forgo a standard action attack whereas with this manuever he can make his ki FoB and attack 6 times (at his current level) and save only one to do a disrupting blow whereas the stunning fist has more power, but can only be used as a single attack in the round. So that's where the utility arises. It's weaker, but your damage dealing potential is higher when using it.
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The problem with this is that it gives him full attacks and then AoOs, and then counters. which makes him even more of attack beast. I really like the giving up attacks to make counters mechanic, and it keeps him in line with his proper power level. Yeah it makes his actual round a little weaker, but it also allows him to do more, and have more options.** spoiler omitted **
More to come as I continue on.
Then I would add a contigency line, if no counters are used in the corse of the round the monk may then take action as if his initiative was 1, but not changing his initiative for the next round.
This removes the "I've declared all of my attacks counters, and nothing attacked me" waste of a round.
Well, one could say that's the risk of attempting to do nothing but counters, the idea is that you'll mix up actually attacking while saving one or two attacks for counters, while giving you the option if things are dire to go completely defensive and have lots of conters. I see that as balancing risk vs. reward just like power attack (if you miss with every attack of a PA you don't then get to re-swing with normal attacks at initiative 1). I don't know, I'll give it some thought.
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Also with changes in counter sense + No FoB, he'd really be keeping up with the melee people IMO.
Take the prestige class at 6, your FoB ability is at 3/3. As you gain higher levels that stays static at 3/3 so it becomes a non isssue. Also you need to take into account that the monks unarmed damage is not going to change unless he takes more monk levels, thus lowering his damage output at higher levels. I'm no math expert so I'm not going to attempt to break down the averages on to hit/damage ratios, but his BAB will be less then the fighters, so he will hit less often.
You are right there, if I drop flurry of blows and just allow a number of counters per round, that would keep him the same as if he chose to forgo attacks, but then kept his flurry. At the same time he could wind up weaker this way as well if the enemy doesn't attack him, because now he can't choose not to forgo attacks and just have a full out regular FoB.
You've given me stuff to think about, I'm on the fence.
Well, one could say that's the risk of attempting to do nothing but counters, the idea is that you'll mix up actually attacking while saving one or two attacks for counters, while giving you the option if things are dire to go completely defensive and have lots of conters. I see that as balancing risk vs. reward just like power attack (if you miss with every attack of a PA you don't then get to re-swing with normal attacks at initiative 1). I don't know, I'll give it some thought.
Yes but at least they got to make a roll. The initiative action allows you as the DM to not "have" to target the PC just because he chose to full counter.
Maybe make it you get one move action and one standard action at initiative 1.
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Well, one could say that's the risk of attempting to do nothing but counters, the idea is that you'll mix up actually attacking while saving one or two attacks for counters, while giving you the option if things are dire to go completely defensive and have lots of conters. I see that as balancing risk vs. reward just like power attack (if you miss with every attack of a PA you don't then get to re-swing with normal attacks at initiative 1). I don't know, I'll give it some thought.Yes but at least they got to make a roll. The initiative action allows you as the DM to not "have" to target the PC just because he chose to full counter.
Maybe make it you get one move action and one standard action at initiative 1.
I might make that a higher level power, I was looking for something for levels 7, 8, and 9. I think that might actually be a great power for level 7.
Defender's Surge: If you forgo all attacks you could have made in the round and are not attacked by the end of the current round, you may choose to make a standard action attack at initiative 1 (like with the surprise round you may use a charge if no enemies are adjacent to you at the time). If you do so you may not counter if an enemy attacks you before your action in the following round.
That's worded a little clunky, but what do you think.
Or maybe even trade it with spiritual reactions so you get it at 5th, and spiritual reactions at 7th.
I don't think 7,8,9 need any more punch to them, just because the PRC is very ability loaded to begin with.
If you do add the Defender's Surge bumping spiritual reactions down to 7th would work.
Defender's Surge: If you forgo all attacks you could have made in the round and are not attacked by the end of the current round, you may choose to make a standard action attack at initiative 1 (like with the surprise round you may use a charge if no enemies are adjacent to you at the time). If you use this ability you may not make any counter attacks until your normal initiative for the following round.
Ki blast you need to cap-it at 10d8, otherwise when you hit Ki mastery it becomes too powerful.
Also why is UMD a class skill for the PrC?
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Ki blast you need to cap-it at 10d8, otherwise when you hit Ki mastery it becomes too powerful.
10d8+10 is only an average of 55 damage. at level 15-20 vs. a single opponent that's kind of piddling damage. It doesn't loose it's level cap until 10th level which is (if taken at its earliest) is level 15 when he'll need to be able to dump more for bigger hits. I understand that spells like fireball and such have caps, but they're also area affects vs. multiple targets. I understand that with his recharge ability if he dumps all of his ki to make a huge blast, but at the same time I don't want to put a cap on it where he can't make it effective in a time of need. I'm kinda torn as to what to do. maybe mastery will allow him to spend 5 more points that way the largest blast he can do is 15d8+15 which is 82 points on average and requires a pretty significant ki dump, which with the way this class is designed will leave him depleted rapidly.
10d8+10 is only an average of 55 damage. at level 15-20 vs. a single opponent that's kind of piddling damage. It doesn't loose it's level cap until 10th level which is (if taken at its earliest) is level 15 when he'll need to be able to dump more for bigger hits. I understand that spells like fireball and such have caps, but they're also area affects vs. multiple targets. I understand that with his recharge ability if he dumps all of his ki to make a huge blast, but at the same time I don't want to put a cap on it where he can't make it effective in a time of need. I'm kinda torn as to what to do. maybe mastery will allow him to spend 5 more points that way the largest blast he can do is 15d8+15 which is 82 points on average and requires a pretty significant ki dump, which with the way this class is designed will leave him depleted rapidly.
The fireballs and such have a cap and a save for half.
This is a single target touch attack (which drastically increases the chance to hit in most cases) with no save.
If you allow a save for half damage or make the attack a straight ranged attack I could see a reason for no cap.
Also I have a variation of the Ki blast for 7,8, or 9 since you were looking for more powers.
Ki Blast (Nova): As a standard action a Spiritual Focus can channel his ki into a blast of force that he sends outwards from his body affecting all withen 10' of the Spirtual Focus. A spiritual focus may spend an amount of ki equal to his focus level to perform this maneuver he deals 1d8 damage for each point of ki spent. The ki blast (nova) allows a reflex save for 1/2 damage.
Also if you really want more abilities allow the SF to take bonus feats off of the Monk Bonus feat list. With the SF levels staking with monk levels for feat selection purposes.
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Okay well, I've made some changes.
first, flurry of blows becomes synergistic training.
Synergistic TrainingSpiritual Focus levels stack with monk levels for the purpose of AC bonus and Flurry of Blows progression. If a Focus has no monk levels then he gains these abilities as if he was a first level monk.
spiritual reactions moves to seventh level while defender's surge moves to 5th level
Defender's Surge: If you forgo all attacks you could have made in the round and are not attacked by the end of the current round, you may choose to make a standard action attack at initiative 1 (like with the surprise round you may use a charge if no enemies are adjacent to you at the time). If you use this ability you may not make any counter attacks until your normal initiative for the following round.
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Also if you really want more abilities allow the SF to take bonus feats off of the Monk Bonus feat list. With the SF levels staking with monk levels for feat selection purposes.
Actually I've been looking at it, and i think that it's pretty solid now, with a strong counter at level 8, and ki surge being able to be used as many times as you like at 9, I'm not sure I need any more abilities. Now I could just use someone like broddigan gale who's really good at calculating all the level based stuff to see if its weak or overpowered. Thanks for all the help so far, you gave me a lot to think about and work with.
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2 yeah I see what you're saying here, and it makes sense. But the point of counters and stances was to give him stuff from the Tome of Battle, that is a Tome of Battle Maneuver. I know it's altered slightly, but in essence it's the same maneuver. If I change it, then the player's not getting what he wanted.I'd explain to him he already has an ability like this in stunning fist, and the utility of the manuever would be better if it was a stun attack rather then the manuever as written. I mean for the cost of 2 ki points - versus X-times stunning fist per day, I'd find out quickly that I get more use out of my ki by not using the ability, and just utilizing stunning fists for the counter strikes since I can use anything that requires the action.That's actually not true, but I see how you got that from my write up. The intent is that the only special attacks he can use during counters are counter powers. But that he has to give up a specified action to use some. I.E. he can't use a flurry of blows to make six attacks during his turn, forgoing only one, and then as a counter use tombstone strike.
the counterattack has to be a normal attack that he can modify with counters. If you can think up a way to write the ability up to make that more clear, I'd appreciate it.
OtoH I am giving serious consideration to going with your suggestion on that one and allowing him to pay ki during counters to use SF without using a daily use. That would however require him to forgo a standard action attack whereas with this manuever he can make his ki FoB and attack 6 times (at his current level) and save only one to do a disrupting blow whereas the stunning fist has more power, but can only be used as a single attack in the round. So that's where the utility arises. It's weaker, but your damage dealing potential is higher when using it.
Oh another point on this ability is that it requires a Will save rather than a Fort save like stunning fist. The will save makes it more likely to work against melee types that resist SF.