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Feedback is welcome. Mostly posting the link so others can steal any ideas they might like. Please keep in mind that this is intended for Kirth Gersen's PF rewrites, so it is decidedly more powerful than PF core. I also went a little further than I thought I should, so I can see what is too much. The unlimited uses of Ghost Step and the like are intended to be balanced by action economy, and the fact that they only last a round with an enforced break inbetween uses. Death Attack and other abilities will be added to the talent lists later. I've been at this at least an hour or two, and it's my bedtime.
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A nice idea, and I don't really see it as a problem. The Assassin gets thing better than Invisible Thief way earlier than the AT, and Surprise and Tricky Spells probably won't mesh with the spell list I have in mind. (Hopefully this weekend I can buckle down on that. Lots of utility spells and less offensive spells.) The loss of the higher level assassin talents and at will abilities is a pretty big deterrent as well. Thanks for pointing out that interaction. I think the best way to avoid it if I so choose is to keep mage hand off of the Assassin spell list.
Very different than the one we're working on. Cool interpretation!
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Oh, don't get me wrong. Undefeatable has a feat for the arcane trickster that lets you meet the prerequisites at level four as well. I just like a class that has such great bonuses by level four.
The ghost step *improved invisibility at 2nd lvl* actually helps to propel the tricksters invisible thief ability to a decent total duration at that level.
Poison use is always nice.
Also the ac bonus :)
Going the spell route uses intellect, which synergises nicely for skill bonuses *something all roguish characters should have lots of*.
The two jutsu's would have to go to trapfinding and blindsense. After 10 levels of Arcane Trickster, I could definitely see going back into assassin for the rest of the goodies.
Canny defense for int to ac, stack int and dex.
Personally, I'd like to see a touch spell or two to mesh well with a flurrying monk :)
So far it looks to be a class that I'll be pestering my friend and future dm about. We'll have to see what the spell list looks like. And please don't keep mage hand off the list :p I'm really liking the concept of an assassin trickster.
Gotta say this seems a little too much to me, it's not so much in the abilities the class gets, and almost entirely in the fact that you have modified existing abilities to be even better, i.e. poison use. These abilities already have specific definitions. While I am a fan of creating feats that let almost any ability modifier to be used for different skills/attacks/ac/etc. I do think that giving an option between either your most important stat, or your most important stat is a little too flexible, not outrageous or anything but all of the special abilities given by this class add up quick and seem a little op, particuarly from 1-10. However it is certainly true that there are "by-the-book" classes, prcs and multi-class combos that are equalish in power to this, and in a group of min/max or uber-optis this would probably not seem op, and certainly it seems like a fun class to play
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I appreciate the response. I intentionally threw as much as I could to see what would work, pushing it as far as I felt I could. On the subject of specific definitions of abilities, I submit Smite Evil. It works almost completely different from the 3.5 version, so I find the updating of Poison Use to be entirely reasonable, and the 3.5 of 'no risk of poisoning self' not worth a class ability. After all, druids get poison immunity as well, so why not assassins? But since I play in a group that enjoys high power levels, I'm glad that you think it would fit in well.
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Yuppers, one of the ancillary links worked for me :)
Also, finally found my way over to the monk and checked out the spell list. There were quite a few on there that I didn't recognize. Usually though, the folks I play with limit spells to the core book just because pulling spells from all over the place is irritating to keep track of. And a pain for the dm to be aware of the players capabilities.
I'd just be careful with the spells. It wouldn't take too many optimized spell choices to push the class from powerful yet good into impossible to challenge normally :p
Drop the 'jutsu' nonsense, I have no desire to play a ninja or ancient martial/Japanese themed character. Frankly the notorious Western European/Middle Eastern assassins have always been far more interesting to me; furthermore, one of the few good things Paizo did in this D&D power-creep fiasco was take that terrible spell casting away from assassins, replacing it with a bunch of 'ghost magic' or just more spells is a step backwards. (I'm already not too happy about some of the pseudo-magic death abilities)
My advice, try and give some non magical abilities for infiltration and escape. Something akin to a fast climb ability (up to characters base speed) and a slow descent ability (2x distance of base speed at max and the assassin must use a rope or a solid structure, i.e, a wall to assist in the rapid descent) nothing as extreme as a 3.0 monk, just something that might reflect the assassins specialized training but is still heroic enough to be proper for a fantasy character. Maybe a couple of abilities to mimic or throw voices or something as well.
UMD for gadgets, 6 + int skill points, as 4 has always been wrong, and of course the other abilities the class currently comes with.
The beauty of the proposed fix to the class is how clever you can be with it because it's simple, you won't be bogged down with strange modifiers and saves etc, aside from certain complex skill checks of course, and it retains it's distinction from a normal rogue! ;)
So over all I think the class is pretty decent, however some critical points:
• Looking at how it compares to the rogue, I also think you need to drop the spells/ki abilities. OR make it choice between ki abilities/spells or Jutsu. The only way a normal rogue compares to this class is if it also had 6 levels of spellcasting, etc.
You could also incorporate spells and ki powers like minor and major magic talents, although they would be much more reduced in scale.
• When I think of ninja movement, I think of speed. Perhaps a +10 land speed talent/jutsu might be in order.
• Uncanny dodge jutsu is missing. Any sneak attack class tends to have uncanny dodge, if not just they are not the victims of sneak attacks as well.
• Minor nitpick, assassin is enterable at 6th level, but ninja gets death attack at 5th, since you can pick up stealth 5 at 5th level.
Take a look at this class in relation to the monk as well as the rogue, seeing as the class is somewhere between the two. How do they compare? Do they feel like their features compare in an appropriate way? The don't have to be equal at all things, but is the ninja as good at ninja stuff, compared to the two?
I like the versatility.
But I have some questions. What are the ki powers? What is the alternate spell list? Or did I miss them somewhere? I would also drop the free ranks in Stealth. Just give them 6 + Int mod skill points (like you already did) and let the player choose to spend ranks in Stealth.
I see that the swift climb and slow fall abilities have been implemented in this build. I think those are good abilities to keep from 3.5.
Though I have stated my piece on 'mystical ninjas' and my desire to play them in D&D, I will say that your build is solid if your into that lore. Looking at those 'jutsu' techniques that I was quick to dismiss, I now think that if you could implement this class without the spells or 'Ki' I'd actually enjoy it.
Now from what I know of 'Jutsu' Im wondering if you could implement special attacks or 'ways/methods' for using traditional Ninja/Feudal Japanese weaponry. I'd like to see bonuses for sneaking shuriukens, Jitte sword disarm tactics, wakizashi flank attacks, maybe even climbing claw melee attacks.
In my mind the Ninja was the ultimate planner/opportunist, the idea of utility tools being used as killing implements, due to their discreet nature and ability to be concealed is a very cool way to approach a combat situation.
Just to add to the list, possible smoke grenade maneuvers, seated combat and CQC attacks (I believe that is why they made their swords smaller than the traditional katana...indoor combat and close quarters viability.
Lastly, I'm very surprised to see that 'Disguise' was not listed as a class skill. Blending into to common peasants or dignitaries is a famous or rather infamous tactic of Ninjas. Often times Ninjas would dress in common clothing or as part of the lower castes and would conceal their weapons and implements in the folds of the baggy garb so they could approach their intended victims without attracting attention.
Instead of the asian-themed termed "Jutsu" or the (rather bland)
"Assassin Talents", you might consider calling them "Dark Arts"...
Instead of the asian-themed termed "Jutsu" or the (rather bland)
"Assassin Talents", you might consider calling them "Dark Arts"...
But then muggles wouldn't have a Defense Against them!!!
:-O
;-)
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Am I a necromancer if it's my own thread?
Will post a new link to my document once I can upload it to the fileshare. In the meantime, I'm thinking I'm going to rename all 'Monk/Rogue/Assassin/Fighter Talents' to just 'Talents'.
This will also allow me to put in text to the effect of 'if your character level is 11th or higher, you may select Advanced Talents'. I think this will be balanced by the fact that most Advanced Talents have normal Talent requirements. Gives multiclass characters a little love.