So, the flavor text of the clock tower in the Skinsaw Murders says it's onyx. Is it actually meant to be onyx? Because my party's wizard is now envisioning selling off 600 lbs of onyx. And how much value would 600 lbs of onyx rubble have, anyway?
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If they could repair the statue, they could make some decent money, but chunks of broken onyx aren't that much more valuable than chunks of broken masonry. I'd say something like 1 sp a pound, if they put a lot of effort into finding a buyer.
And since this is a clear example of greed, make a note of this behaviour for the fifth AP. :)
'Onyx' can be used to describe the silica-gemstones (and material component of many spells), but also for some specific forms of limestone.
Limestone is actually the most used material for sculptures and was a very important building material in times without concrete. Also, Magnimar is founded on a limestone cliff, so there are almost positively a few quarries nearby that produce limestone for Magnimar.
As a material, the statue is almost worthless (to adventurers). Perhaps it could be sold as an art object, but wouldn't people know it was salvaged from one of their city monuments?
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I got the impression they meant for "onyx" to equal "black", in a poetic kind of way. It is implied that the statue looks black now because of years of wear and grime accumulation.
I figure it's limestone, which washes away fine details quickly if you get a little acid rain (like, say, from the Golemworks' smokestacks almost directly overhead at the end of the bridge) and a lot of mold and soot (seaside = moist, 2 hours/day of light = dark, moist + dark = mold).
In any case, I'm 100% certain this throwaway line in the tower's description was NOT meant to describe a massively valuable treasure object, especially since there is a Treasure entry for every location that actually has, you know, treasure in it.
In any case, I'm 100% certain this throwaway line in the tower's description was NOT meant to describe a massively valuable treasure object, especially since there is a Treasure entry for every location that actually has, you know, treasure in it.
Take a look at the room description where the Skinsaw Man is. Describes silver trays and crystal decanters, yet they're not included in the treasure section.
That said, I expected that the word "onyx" was meant more as a description rather than as a material. And I ruled as such, though the overbearing player in question tried to argue about it.|
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Take a look at the room description where the Skinsaw Man is. Describes silver trays and crystal decanters, yet they're not included in the treasure section.
In any case, I'm 100% certain this throwaway line in the tower's description was NOT meant to describe a massively valuable treasure object, especially since there is a Treasure entry for every location that actually has, you know, treasure in it.
There is a Treasure entry for this room. It does not give a value for the silverware, dinnerware or serving set, so it's worth 0gp. It's flavor text, not treasure. Compare to p33, area B25, where the value of just such a set is given. As written, the dinnerware here has a value, that in the Skinsaw Man's lair does not, although it is reasonable to assume (and most likely the case) that they are from the same set. You could either give the full value for the set in B25, or deduct from the value unless the pieces described in B37 are returned to it. But in any case, when treasure is worth something, it is mentioned under the Treasure entry, otherwise, it's just purdy words.
There is a Treasure entry for this room. It does not give a value for the silverware, dinnerware or serving set, so it's worth 0gp. It's flavor text, not treasure. Compare to p33, area B25, where the value of just such a set is given. As written, the dinnerware here has a value, that in the Skinsaw Man's lair does not, although it is reasonable to assume (and most likely the case) that they are from the same set. You could either give the full value for the set in B25, or deduct from the value unless the pieces described in B37 are returned to it. But in any case, when treasure is worth something, it is mentioned under the Treasure entry, otherwise, it's just purdy words.
And just how are the players supposed to know the difference? We're the ones sitting behind the screen with all the information.
You tell them there's a large statue made of semiprecious stone (50 gp per gem) sitting on top of the tower just waiting to be taken? Or that there's another crystalware set to claim if they clean it up a bit and you expect them not to ask about it's value?
There are alot of things the players can take it they want to bother hauling it around, like the stuffed trophy heads that dot the mansion, or the furniture, or musical intruments. That's what the Appraisal skill is for. Let them roll and if it's not worth anything then tell them that and explain why. Maybe the statue is pure onyx, it's just not gem quality, it's low quality onyx that wasn't good enough for a jeweler. Maybe if they rubble it they find a vein of gem quality onyx inside and make a few hundred extra gold, or maybe they sweat alot and get nothing for their troubles, it's up to you. The crystalware set could be crappy quality, cracked, dented, and basically ruined or it could be worth another pretty penny if they have the guts to clean it up.
The treasure listings are a good guide, they are what was supposed to be easily and obviously taken, but if the players have the desire and the means to take more things, then who's to stop them? If they wanted to rip the mantle piece with the hidden compartment out of Alderns townhouse and take it to a locksmith? Why not? It's a cleverly crafted piece and if they remove it carefully it might be worth something. Or it might not. Stealing from monsters is what players do.
I agree that while it may not be listed in the treasure compartment that means squat to players. They hear no difference in "The room has beautiful china plates stacked on a desk" and "you find some valuable china". Also technically they can sell everything not bolted down for some value somewhere. Heck if they clean out the misgivings problems and really put the work into it they could sell some of the nice furniture from the few good "untouched" rooms and make a pretty penny. The reason that usually doesn't happen though is they are adventurers not merchants and most players will go for easy money such as paintings and silverware sets but pass on giant statues that don't scream lots of money or mantle pieces, and couches. Honestly if my players wanted to do this I'd let them but I would gently remind them of the amount of time they are wasting compared to the money they make in that same amount of time adventuring, aka doing the real stuff. Also as has been noted any player that insists on taking and selling anything, including the nailed down items should be watched on the old greedometer...
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The treasure listings are a good guide, they are what was supposed to be easily and obviously taken, but if the players have the desire and the means to take more things, then who's to stop them? If they wanted to rip the mantle piece with the hidden compartment out of Alderns townhouse and take it to a locksmith? Why not?
Why not? Because then you get players trying to get thousands of gold pieces out of a ruined statue that was not meant to be treasure,that's why.
Treasure entries are where you find items that the author of the adventure meant to be handed out as treasure, via the wealth by level guidelines.
It's a cleverly crafted piece and if they remove it carefully it might be worth something. Or it might not.
Or it shouldn't be, because it's not listed under Treasure.
I agree that while it may not be listed in the treasure compartment that means squat to players. They hear no difference in "The room has beautiful china plates stacked on a desk" and "you find some valuable china". Also technically they can sell everything not bolted down for some value somewhere. Heck if they clean out the misgivings problems and really put the work into it they could sell some of the nice furniture from the few good "untouched" rooms and make a pretty penny.
They could take non-listed items, but like you said, they weren't meant to as per the wealth by level guidelines. Also, in these specific instances, the "onyx" statue doesn't belong to Xanesia, it belongs to whomever holds the deed to the clocktower. In this case, I'd bet that the deed holder is nowhere to be found, thus it was condemned by the city, and thus ownership reverted to the city. If the statue were pure gold with emerald eyes, it belongs to the city, not the monsters. The fancy dinnerware in B37 could be ruined by the fact that, oh, say, a ghoul has covered it in putrescent meat and gore. Maybe you can't get the ghoul-stench out of it, or whatever. But if the designer meant for it to be valuable loot easily converted to gold pieces, he would have mentioned it in the Treasure entry. Sure the PCs could literally steal the sod out of the Misgivings yard and sell it, but obviously that was not meant to be added to the PC's wealth and hence power (via purchased/created magic items). What you do in your home game is up to you, but the author meant something else entirely.
You really shouldn't let yourself be shackled so. Throw off your shackles, think outside the box. Add some flexibility to your game.
The treasure listings are a good guide, they are what was supposed to be easily and obviously taken, but if the players have the desire and the means to take more things, then who's to stop them? If they wanted to rip the mantle piece with the hidden compartment out of Alderns townhouse and take it to a locksmith? Why not?Why not? Because then you get players trying to get thousands of gold pieces out of a ruined statue that was not meant to be treasure,that's why.
Treasure entries are where you find items that the author of the adventure meant to be handed out as treasure, via the wealth by level guidelines.
It's a cleverly crafted piece and if they remove it carefully it might be worth something. Or it might not.Or it shouldn't be, because it's not listed under Treasure.
I agree that while it may not be listed in the treasure compartment that means squat to players. They hear no difference in "The room has beautiful china plates stacked on a desk" and "you find some valuable china". Also technically they can sell everything not bolted down for some value somewhere. Heck if they clean out the misgivings problems and really put the work into it they could sell some of the nice furniture from the few good "untouched" rooms and make a pretty penny.They could take non-listed items, but like you said, they weren't meant to as per the wealth by level guidelines. Also, in these specific instances, the "onyx" statue doesn't belong to Xanesia, it belongs to whomever holds the deed to the clocktower. In this case, I'd bet that the deed holder is nowhere to be found, thus it was condemned by the city, and thus ownership reverted to the city. If the statue were pure gold with emerald eyes, it belongs to the city, not the monsters. The fancy dinnerware in B37 could be ruined by the fact that, oh, say, a ghoul has covered it in putrescent meat and gore. Maybe you can't get the ghoul-stench out of it, or whatever. But...
There is a difference between being flexible, being "shackled", and giving PCs tens of thousands of gold pieces over and above that which they should have.You really shouldn't let yourself be shackled so. Throw off your shackles, think outside the box. Add some flexibility to your game.
Then the writers of these adventures shouldn't do things like add descriptions of silver platters and crystal decanters to the text for a room. The onyx thing with the statue is easily explained as just being a description of the statue. Or the statue being one of the various and sundry sorts of stone that aren't actually the semi-precious rock. In a setting where magic that can repair and clean things is easily accessible, it's kind of a cheese move to describe items that can only be precious metal in the description of a room and then not have it be actual treasure.
This isn't a really common occurence, but it happens often enough to be noteworthy.
There are always gong to be a few discrepancies between a scenario's descriptive text and its treasure listing. That's where the DM comes in.
Player: I grab those crystal goblets and silver trays. How much are they worth?
DM: You guess they'll bring about 20 gp. once they're cleaned up.
Later...
DM: The merchant sees your haul and refuses to touch any of it. Pointing to the Foxglove crest on the items, he pulls out his holy symbol and threatens to turn you in to the Watch if you bring in any more of the Skinsaw Man's accursed family heirlooms.
Player: You didn't tell me the stuff had his heraldry on them!
DM: You didn't ask. You can still sell your loot in Magnimar...
There are always gong to be a few discrepancies between a scenario's descriptive text and its treasure listing. That's where the DM comes in.
Player: I grab those crystal goblets and silver trays. How much are they worth?
DM: You guess they'll bring about 20 gp. once they're cleaned up.
Later...
DM: The merchant sees your haul and refuses to touch any of it. Pointing to the Foxglove crest on the items, he pulls out his holy symbol and threatens to turn you in to the Watch if you bring in any more of the Skinsaw Man's accursed family heirlooms.
Player: You didn't tell me the stuff had his heraldry on them!
DM: You didn't ask. You can still sell your loot in Magnimar...
I like that. :-)
Then the writers of these adventures shouldn't do things like add descriptions of silver platters and crystal decanters to the text for a room. ... In a setting where magic that can repair and clean things is easily accessible, it's kind of a cheese move to describe items that can only be precious metal in the description of a room and then not have it be actual treasure.
This. It's a problem with the module - in an adventure that's actually meant to be played, "purdy words" aren't enough. Either a platter is silver, or it isn't. Silver has value in the game.
A little more thought needs to go into adventures where valuable items are concerned, so the DM isn't constantly cleaning up the author's errors. (In these particular circumstances, it's where the writer comes in, not the DM.)
Then the writers of these adventures shouldn't do things like add descriptions of silver platters and crystal decanters to the text for a room. ... In a setting where magic that can repair and clean things is easily accessible, it's kind of a cheese move to describe items that can only be precious metal in the description of a room and then not have it be actual treasure.This. It's a problem with the module - in an adventure that's actually meant to be played, "purdy words" aren't enough. Either a platter is silver, or it isn't. Silver has value in the game.
A little more thought needs to go into adventures where valuable items are concerned, so the DM isn't constantly cleaning up the author's errors. (In these particular circumstances, it's where the writer comes in, not the DM.)
While I don't agree that Pcs should loot and pillage everything not nailed down in most circumstances (I just dislike the idea of adventurers doing that in alot of cases) I do agree that something that is valuable such as fine china nd the like shouldn't be included in the treasure text of one room and not another where it is just window dressing. Using the misgivings as an example the rat and mold infested kitchens have a few hundred gold piece value wirth of fine china in the treasure but the aforementioned gore covered silverware platters are not, when despite the horrid stench of ghast and gore, a few liberal applications of elbow grease and prestidigitation could remove the nastiness at least long enough for a greedy party to sell so it should be noted the value of the items in thsi case. and in any easily sellable not bolted down item. Silver platters and crystal goblets are worth this much is all I mean, Mantels and fireplaces and the like? Now that is too much for me.