Reserve Feats vs Domain / Bloodine / School Abilities


Homebrew and House Rules


Mostly looking for opinions here. I was making my character for a campaign and took one of the reserve feats from the Complete Mage suppliment. It got me thinking about how that feat completely overwhelms many of the abilities granted by various domains or bloodline or schools. A common ability is a ranged touch attack 30' for 1d6+? usable 3+(Ability Modifier) times a day.

The reserve feat Fiery Burst (the one I took), and many of the others, turn these class abilities into dust. They have (almost) infinate uses and more damage.

Do you think they need to be toned down some to balance them with the class abilities?

I believe so, and was thinking that they should have limiting language added to them for the Pathfinder ruleset. My language would be something like: Add the line --- This ability can be used 3+(Ability modifier) times a day, so long as a qualifying spell is still available. (Ability modifier is that of the caster's primary spell casting ability score)

I originally though that it would be "nerfing" the feat, but reasoned that most reserve feats are equivelent to a 2nd level spell, or higher in power, and I cannot think of many feats that grant a 2nd level or higher spell per day. These feats effective grant 4+ spells/day.

Thoughts?


Reserve feats were created to give spellcasters a way of dealing damage each round without running out of spells. Unfortunately, they are seriously flawed and unbalanced in terms of power (which is not the same as saying that they aren't fun to use or don't have a place in certain high-power campaigns). I have personally seen two spellcasters take reserve feats that have turned them into destructive overgods by the time they reached mid-levels. One almost ruined a campaign with reserve feats because the GM didn't know how to deal with the character's destructive potential.

The 1st level bloodline powers and school powers were Paizo's answer to the problem of giving spellcasters a way of being effective in combat without running out of spells or once their spells had been used up. In essence the powers in the PFRPG are a replacement for things like reserve feats, and why they are inferior in power but better balanced (I'm sure they might have even been influenced by the development of reserve feats).

I think the changes you suggest are one way of bridging the power gap, but obviously they need to be discussed with your GM (unless he gives you carte blanche to do what you like with this sort of thing).

Ultimately, I have a poor opinion of reserve feats and refuse to allow them in my games, which probably biases any real suggestions I would make, since my first suggestion is not to use them at all. :-)


At first I was sort of for reserve feats, but ya know, they probably are a bit O.P.

Aside from that ya don't really need them with pathfinder.

Especially not if you use spells like minor missile! >.> Just make cantrip spells, lol.

WOOT.

Minor missile is 1 missle per like 1 level I think.

Max 3, 1 damage per missile.

Something like that.

The Exchange

Honestly, I don't think that the Reserve feats should be compared to the Bloodline powers. The bloodline blasts are powers available from level one, and the lowest you could qualify for reserve feats was 3rd level. The blasting reserve feats gave you a blast that had damage comparable with a rogue's sneak attack (in a sense that that's how many dice you got). No addition to damage (no +'s), and you couldn't do it after you used the spell that was being kept in reserve.

I liked them. The damage wasn't stellar, and the other non-damaging effects weren't amazing, but they added a bit of longevity to lower-level casters. That's not even mentioning that blasting spells are pretty inefficient ways of dealing with enemies, given your options. Generally I say let the fighter, ranger, and barbarian deal the damage, but reserve feats were a nice way of letting the wizard contribute some damage without running their resources out.

Grand Lodge

Phil. L wrote:

Reserve feats were created to give spellcasters a way of dealing damage each round without running out of spells. Unfortunately, they are seriously flawed and unbalanced in terms of power (which is not the same as saying that they aren't fun to use or don't have a place in certain high-power campaigns). I have personally seen two spellcasters take reserve feats that have turned them into destructive overgods by the time they reached mid-levels. One almost ruined a campaign with reserve feats because the GM didn't know how to deal with the character's destructive potential.

...

Ultimately, I have a poor opinion of reserve feats and refuse to allow them in my games, which probably biases any real suggestions I would make, since my first suggestion is not to use them at all. :-)

I would be interested in reading an explanation of what happened in the mentioned campaign that led to this view. I'll have to go reread the feats to try and puzzle out what they gave that let them dominate so badly.

Also, on the subject of school powers, I feel they are underpowered and not worth the space they take up.

The Exchange

I concur... assuming mid-levels means around 11, 6d6 damage to a small area does not even begin to compare to the amount of damage a fighter, barbarian, or ranger can deal, or a Paladin considering your opponents are evil. If it were, my warlock player (who get's the same damage on Eldritch blasts as the reserve feats allow) wouldn't have been complaining about his low damage out-put.

EDIT: I also agree that the school/bloodline blasts are completely worthless... Since the change from the beta playtest of the rules when they were at-will, I haven't used them at all.

Grand Lodge

Now if their group is of the opinion that the Warlock is an overpowered class, I'll have my answer. I can totally understand a completely different group dynamic.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Now if their group is of the opinion that the Warlock is an overpowered class, I'll have my answer. I can totally understand a completely different group dynamic.

In the group I'm talking about the other players were constantly complaining about the wizard's use of reserve feats to destroy everything in his path (this was a storm mage specialist who used a clever combination of feats to really power up his abilities). The warlock class was specifically forbidden because its ability to deal magical damage each round with a ranged touch attack was deemed too much for the group in question.

By the way, while I played with this group they are not the only group I have played with. I have personally run a high-level game with argent savant/force missile mages, half-fiend binder elves, and swordsages with paired vorpal blades. I've used every book in every configuration, so I've seen it all.

My real contention is that the Complete Books are overpowered in respect to the PFRPG classes and rules. The feats, spells and powers in the PFRPG (with a few exceptions) are just not as good as those available in the Complete Books (of course if you exclude anyone from using these books the spellcasters powers in the PFRPG don't seem so weak in comparison anymore - funny that). This is an old argument that I'm not going to open up here, but the power creep in the Complete Books and other sources is one of the main reasons I switched to Pathfinder. I just hope the APG doesn't begin the power creep anew.

Grand Lodge

I agree, and that fit with what I was guessing. It sounds like you have a good grasp of your game, different as it is from what I'm used to. I hope to see the APG have a lot of interesting lateral power without too much vertical power, despite my still using 3.5 rules.

The Exchange

That's actually the first time I've heard someone say that the eldritch blast was too good. Different strokes for different folks I guess, or maybe my group just goes for too much power... Regardless, when someone in our group plays a warlock (one player more than any other) it's not for the pure damage potential of his eldritch blast... until he gets into Hellfire Warlock, of course ;). That becomes expensive to keep up, though.

Also, even without the Complete Books, the spellcaster powers (the ones that do damage) still seem worthless. They make you seem less worthless than 3.5 casters at levels 1-2, but this is in fact an illusion- you could actually do more damage with a crossbow. Now, the Laughing Touch, the Blinding Ray, and other such fun abilities- these can actually make a difference in combat. Of course, that could be considered part of my argument for blasting being an inferior choice overall, but that's hardly anything new.

Grand Lodge

I admit I felt the Warlock was overpowered when I first saw it in play. I've since changed my view on it to be a decent one-trick pony. There were some games the only reason the party survived was the eldritch blasts chipping away.

I don't see any problems with the Reserve feats myself, but I do agree they make the school/bloodline 1st level powers obsolete, and can be too much for some peoples games. But as I said, I don't feel the 1st level powers are all that impressive, so my bias is from the other direction. :)


Hunterofthedusk wrote:
That's actually the first time I've heard someone say that the eldritch blast was too good. Different strokes for different folks I guess, or maybe my group just goes for too much power... Regardless, when someone in our group plays a warlock (one player more than any other) it's not for the pure damage potential of his eldritch blast... until he gets into Hellfire Warlock, of course ;). That becomes expensive to keep up, though.

I once ran a campaign where one of the players ran an elven warlock/rogue for four years (up to 15th lvl by the time we finished), so I'm aware of their abilities (in fact we even invented a few new invocations for the game). The warlock was just a little too much for the other group. Then again, with the exception of the guy who played the storm mage, the rest were content with picking their feats and classes on a whim. One didn't even care if her character was good in combat and deliberately played a weak character. Different strokes for different folks indeed. lol.


I limited Reserve feats to Sorcerers in a vain attempt to get them up to par. It did keep them shooting, but both Sorcerers dumped them during their rebuilds. Never did ask why...

Shadow Lodge

I actually think that the reserve feats did a much better job for what they are intended than PF's versions with Bloodlines and Domains. firsty off, characters can take the ones they want, and if they don't are not stuck with something they don't care about without a different option.

Secondly, the Reserve Feats scale so much better than the PF stuff. Admittedly I detest Domain powers to the point I would almost rather have nothing :), but I think reserve feats where a good idea. They can be OP, but I think that this is more for the fact that others do not understand what Reserve Feats actually bring to the table, or people do not see the built in clauses that some come with.


I've supercedes the bloodline "pew pew" powers with reserve feat-like effects. And merged those with the eldritch blast, so my homebrew sorcerers are also warlocks, with the strength of their blasts dependent on the highest-level spell slot they have remaining. I'll likely do something similar with clerics' domain blast powers as well.


Pet peeve: draconic sorcerer have claws... for a (very) limited number of rounds per day.

On one hand, we have cantrips/orisons which are at-will but pretty much useless in general. On the other hand, we have abilities which are pretty weak and are limited in uses. At the far end of the scale, we have Reserve feats which can be overpowered... or not.

I once had a chat with a GM about these feats. His reasoning was to allow them because his style of handling the game pushed the PCs to use most of their combat resources. When you have access to a single 3rd-level spell which happens to be Fireball, you could do small fire bursts which won't take many enemies off the game, or use the good ol' fireball to level the field. Same goes for the other spells (yes, even healing and summoning). Reserve feats can be useful as utilities, but rarely for level-appropriate combat.

It all depends on how the GM manages the game. And, since he always has the last word when you ask for feats...

Dark Archive

I'd wouldn't mind if someone adapted the Sword & Sorcery 'Locus feats' (from Vigil Watch: Secrets of the Asaatthi) in place of Reserve feats, for Pathfinder. They came out a year or two earlier, and require the caster to have multiple spells of a certain nature prepared (or slots remaining and those spells known, for a spontaneous caster), but so long as those spells are available, the caster has certain synergistic abilities. One example required one to have light, shocking grasp and lightning bolt prepared (or known), but so long as you did, you could transform a weapon in your grasp into electricity.

The Locus feats, in general, were *much* weaker than the Reserve feats that they may or may not have inspired later, but they could be tweaked upwards to somewhere below Reserve feat, but still worth taking.

To Golarion-ize the concept, a feat of this sort would be ideal for a Winter Witch of Irrisen, allowing her to prepare (or know) certain ice and cold-themed spells, and as long as she keeps that potential held within her body, she can generate daggers, javelins or spears of ice as a free action and hurl them at her foes (melting away at the end of the round, whether they hit or miss), with the icy weapons being treated as increasingly powerful, depending on what level of [Cold] spell she has prepared, up to +X Icy Burst spears, for instance. It's not the best thing ever she could be doing, depending on her spell list, but unlimited free magic icy burst spear attacks might be a fun ranged option for when she doesn't want to blow her big spells on a specific encounter.

Louis IX wrote:
Pet peeve: draconic sorcerer have claws... for a (very) limited number of rounds per day.

I allow alternate class features to swap that (and various other Domain / School / Bloodline powers) out.

Example substitution;

Draconic (replaces Claws)
Deadly Spittle (Sp): As a standard action, you can spit forth a bolt of destructive power similar to the breath weapon of your chosen dragon type at a single target within 30 ft. as a ranged touch attack inflicting 1d6 acid, cold, electrical or fire (as appropriate) damage +1 hit point per 2 class levels. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

[Presumably, someone who took this option would get a different substitution ability for the 'Bite' power of a 2nd level Dragon Disciple as well, since it builds off of 'Claws,' but I haven't developed the idea that far yet...]

I also allow some feats to increase the uses / day of the Domain / School / Bloodline 'zaps,' to increase their range, and to allow one to burn spell slots (or spells prepared) to increase the dice of effect, so that a Sorcerer, Wizard or Cleric who wants to 'warlock it up' a bit can blow some feats, or take an alternate class feature, or some combination of the above, to boost their 'zaps' effectiveness.

They'll never reach Warlock levels, but they'll still have a bunch of class abilities and spell options that a Warlock doesn't, so it works out.

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