Symphony no. 3, "Rhenish". The 4th movement in particular is fantastic.
My own tastes are kind of weird. I go for the 2nd movement of that symphony, myself. And what out-shines that, in my opinion, is his 4th symphony, with all of the movements heavily referring to each other. It's not often that I find a multi-movement piece and love ALL the movements all that much.
Alas, my family doesn't seem to think much of those Schumann symphonies. Last week, we were going on a family trip, and as I drove, I put the Schumann symphonies into the CD player. My daughter had made a somewhat disparaging remark about them, and during that busy Scherzo movement of the 2nd symphony - which is, in my opinion, the best movement of that symphony by far - my wife made her feelings clear by ejecting the CD. Ah well.
And since I mentioned 3 out of 4 Schumann symphonies, I should mention his first, the "Spring" symphony. The first movement is fantastic, and the 3rd and 4th movements are nothing to sneeze at, either.
(By the way, did you know it's Emanuel Ax's birthday too?)
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I had some more thoughts...
My own tastes are kind of weird. I go for the 2nd movement of that symphony, myself. And what out-shines that, in my opinion, is his 4th symphony, with all of the movements heavily referring to each other. It's not often that I find a multi-movement piece and love ALL the movements all that much.
The word for this is "cyclic form", which is when various movements of a multi-movement work use some of the same material. Some of the earliest examples are in Beethoven (his 5th and 9th symphonies in particular), but Schumann was an important pioneer of this technique. Not only does he use cyclic form within some of his symphonies (most conspicuously the 4th, as you point out), but he even quotes melodies among various compositions that aren't otherwise related. I know there was a waltz melody that he used in Carnival, Papillons, and a few other works, for instance.
Alas, my family doesn't seem to think much of those Schumann symphonies. Last week, we were going on a family trip, and as I drove, I put the Schumann symphonies into the CD player. My daughter had made a somewhat disparaging remark about them, and during that busy Scherzo movement of the 2nd symphony - which is, in my opinion, the best movement of that symphony by far - my wife made her feelings clear by ejecting the CD. Ah well.
I had a similar experience once with his cello concerto. It had come on the radio and my partner made me turn it off. It strikes me that in some of his fast movements, Schumann tends to use patterns of quick notes all of equal duration. I think the lack of rhythmic variety in pieces like your example and mine can turn some people off. It's worth noting that, as a composer who didn't have a whole lot of formal training, Schumann's compositions can be a little inconsistent. There is some awesome work there, but there is also some that is pretty weak (referring here particularly to a large volume of his work that no one even performs anymore).
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At the risk of being frivolous, tonight's BBC Proms concert (31st July, Prom 19) here in the UK featured Sondheim music, including (dame) Judy Dench singing 'Send in the clowns' and Bryn Terfel singing pieces from Sweeney Todd. If you're in the UK, reading this, and like 'light' classical music, then go to the BBC website and listen to this one if you didn't catch it live on radio or delayed on TV.
I'm sorry I missed that!
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This thread needs a bump.
I'm on a Fauré kick. His incidental music to Pelleas et Melisande never ceases to amaze me. There's something so beautiful and tranquil about it.
But really it's his requiem that blows me away. Notice the lack of violins until the Sanctus, where they come in like a ray of light. In fact, "light" is a recurring theme (the word "lux" is often held for multiple measures to give it importance), and the requiem marks a departure from masses of the dead that are largely about judgment and despair, being instead a work of peace and reflection.
Chopin was how I really got into Classical music. I can never get enough of the 4th Ballade. And Killer GM - I'm with you on the 2nd concerto, both the 2nd movement and the whole thing. There's something immediately accessible about Chopin's music.
I definitely agree. Another thing about Chopin - It just seems to "fit" into your hands to play it. Its not like some of the Liszt pieces that just dont seem to "work" for piano at all. I love playing Chopin. :)
The Chopin "cello" etude (opus 25 no 7) has to be one of my all time favorite pieces.
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Chopin was how I really got into Classical music. I can never get enough of the 4th Ballade. And Killer GM - I'm with you on the 2nd concerto, both the 2nd movement and the whole thing. There's something immediately accessible about Chopin's music.I definitely agree. Another thing about Chopin - It just seems to "fit" into your hands to play it. Its not like some of the Liszt pieces that just dont seem to "work" for piano at all. I love playing Chopin. :)
The Chopin "cello" etude (opus 25 no 7) has to be one of my all time favorite pieces.
Good stuff. I gave that etude another listen (I hadn't heard it in a while), and I agree. And you're certainly not alone on the playability of Chopin - I think he was unparalleled in that regard.
Another thing about Chopin - It just seems to "fit" into your hands to play it.
And you're certainly not alone on the playability of Chopin - I think he was unparalleled in that regard.
Well... kind of. You must be more advanced than I. I had the devil of a time trying to learn his waltz in G-flat Major (Op. 70 No. 1). With all that jumping around of the hands, I found it difficult to aim for the right spots, and couldn't get the piece to anywhere near the appropriate tempo. I had difficulty with one of his Polonaises too.
But yes, I know what you mean about fitting into your hands. Chopin seemed to choose his keys on that basis. (He certainly didn't choose his keys for easy readability!) I had a better time of playing the Minute Waltz and that beautiful Etude (the Opus 10 No 3.) After struggling with those for a very long time, I managed to get those ones fast enough to sound good... though just BARELY fast enough.
I also played the Waltz in C# minor, but when trying to memorize it, I kept getting tripped up by those subtle differences in repetitions.
But I did OK with "L'adieu" and with that posthumous waltz in E minor.
And I certainly can't argue about Chopin being accessible. When I was 8 years old, I decided that Chopin was my favorite composer. And even after, as an adult, I decided that my favorite composer was Bach, or maybe Beethoven, I still continue to discover more incredible Chopin pieces.
Then again, my 8-year-old daughter may disagree. Several times, she heard another Etude (the "Revolutionary") and said "What?! That's not even music! That's just noise!"
I apologize.
I hardly ever get a chance to browse paizo.com anymore, and when I do, I have a decidedly limited time to read and post. So I didn't consider my words very carefully last night.
I guess I just felt a bit shocked when Shantare and Celestial Healer described Chopin as playable, as I had always thought of Chopin as having written some of the more advanced piano music. But in truth, I have no idea WHICH Chopin pieces you were referring to. So how could I disagree? I was making no sense. Sorry. And the only Liszt I can ever recall playing was his Liebestraum No. 3, so what do I know?
But since I babbled for so long about Chopin, I might as well go on to venture my opinion (as countering those posted) that my favorite movement among Chopin's sonatas is the last movement of his third.
My favorite of his Ballades was his second. It's a perfect example of his Ballades' abrupt mood changes. Ah, what a nice, slow, soft piece. So serene. So beautiful. So... WLAAUGH!!! Whoa! (Although his fourth Ballade is my second favorite, so I ALMOST agree with you.)
But I think the REAL bread and butter of Chopin's music is his waltzes and Polonaises. There are so many great ones, I couldn't possibly choose among them.
And when going on about great Chopin pieces, I MUST mention his Fantasie-Impromptu.
I don't care for his Mazurkas, though, except for his Opus 7 No 1 in B-flat.
Boy, I just wrote more on this thread in the past day than I have on ANY other thread on paizo.com in the past couple of WEEKS.
Oh yeah. And in addition to the two excellent Etudes I mentioned (the Opus 10 numbers 3 and 12,) I also like the "black key" Etude (op. 10 no. 5.) Who says that Etudes are no fun for listening?
I'm not familiar with the Etude you mentioned, the Opus 25 No 7. I should give that one a listen some time.
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Well, I should point out there's a difference between "falls well under the hand" and "easy". What marks Chopin's music, from a playability standpoint, is the lack of awkwardness. It can be very hard and even virtuosic, but even so it's music written with the human hand in mind.
A different composer (Beethoven and Brahms are probably better examples of this than Liszt) composes with the music in mind, puts it down on paper, and lets the performer figure out how to play it. Regardless of whether it's an easy piece or a hard piece, you are likely to run into instances where you might have to pick up your hand and break a phrase in order to play the notes, or there's no way to avoid putting your thumb on a black key in the middle of a scale, or whatever else. You don't really find that issue in Chopin, because he adapted his music to fit the hand.
As an aside, the last movement of the third sonata is fantastic. Those opening notes are incredible: the first measure is all one note, played up and down the keyboard in octaves, but the second measure is that same note with a minor second added to it (two notes as close together as is possible - an incredibly dissonant sound) that then continues to expand outward. But that huge dissonance in the second measure is like a slap in the fact that really grabs your attention after the slow third movement. Brilliant stuff.
Well, I should point out there's a difference between "falls well under the hand" and "easy". What marks Chopin's music, from a playability standpoint, is the lack of awkwardness. It can be very hard and even virtuosic, but even so it's music written with the human hand in mind.
Ah, now I see.
Anyway, I can't believe that I went on for so long about Chopin's music without thinking to mention his Scherzi.
When I was eight years old, I heard Chopin pieces like his waltz in C# minor, the Minute Waltz, the Fantasie-Impromptu, the Military Polonaise, etc., with passages so fast that I shouldn't have been able to follow the melodic line, but which somehow blurred into a great melody. I heard that stuff and decided that Chopin was my favorite composer.
Decades later, I discovered his Scherzo no. 1, and thought "Boy, what a pity I didn't hear this as a child! I might have considered this quintessential Chopin, back then." Great stuff! (The same goes for the aforementioned "Black Key" and "Revolutionary" Etudes, his Ballade no. 2, et al.)
I found the Scherzo no. 2 was more subtle than that. "Subtle" is the word I use to describe music to which I need to listen several times to understand. But once I understood it, it was fantastic.
When I was eight years old, I heard Chopin pieces like his waltz in C# minor, the Minute Waltz, the Fantasie-Impromptu, the Military Polonaise, etc., with passages so fast that I shouldn't have been able to follow the melodic line, but which somehow blurred into a great melody...
Crumb. I meant the HEROIC Polonaise, not the Military one.
Boy, do I miss the days when I had had time to proofread my messages before posting them.
Double crumb. Once again, it's time for me to say "oops."
Check out the 2nd movement from Chopin's piano concerto #2.
And Killer GM - I'm with you on the 2nd concerto, both the 2nd movement and the whole thing.
You're clearly talking about Chopin's piano CONCERTO #2, but when I read those posts, something clicked wrong in my mind, and I thought of Chopin's piano SONATA #2. Then I wrote about my favorite movement of Chopin's SONATAS.
Right now, I'm listening to a Chopin CD. When I heard the SONATA #2, I thought "Wow, this piece is great! What was it that people wrote about it on this thread again?" And the answer is... nothing!
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Right now, I'm listening to a Chopin CD. When I heard the SONATA #2, I thought "Wow, this piece is great! What was it that people wrote about it on this thread again?" And the answer is... nothing!
Well, that's a good piece too!
Schumann had a great quote about Chopin's second sonata... Something along the lines that (paraphrasing) "instead of writing a sonata, Chopin has taken 4 of his wildest children and strung them together under the guise of a form rich in tradition" or some such. Indeed, many of Chopin's works use a Classical model, but the only ones to which he gives a "Classical" title - the sonatas - are in fact far from it. I think he had a taste for irony.
If you think of the second sonata, it's rather all over the place. The first and second movements aren't necessarily that far out of line, but the famous funeral march almost seems to come out of nowhere (although use of a funeral march for a slow movement was certainly precedented). The finale really baffles - a perpetual motion of octaves, with no harmonization whatsoever. People thought he was nuts.
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A couple of weeks ago I went to see the final round of a bit piano competition. It was the concerto round, won by a 17 year old who gave one of the best renditions of the "Rach 3" I've ever heard.
Anyway, every year it seems like there is at least one Prokofiev concerto in the final round, and I've found that I really like them. The recurring theme from the short 1st concerto always gets stuck in my head. It strikes me as a very festive piece.
The second concerto is more brooding, with a heaviness characteristic of Prokofiev's early music (which includes most of his concertos, really). I think these pieces should be played more.
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RIP Henryk Gorecki
Here is a clip from his Symphony of Sorrowful Songs. (As the title suggests it's not particularly cheery music, but incredibly moving.)
Does anyone here know a lot about DMCA, or intellectual property generally? Since the classical station became a public station, they no longer publish advance playlists. Their website used to show everything they had lined up, I think days in advance, but they cite compliance with DMCA as the reason they can't do that any more. I've done some research, but I can't understand how they would be running afoul of DMCA by publishing advance playlists.
Hmm. That seems odd to me too.
My local station usually doesn't do advanced playlists just because they don't plan that far ahead, but any DMCA ramifications would be news to me.
If you are interested in the issue, the station I am talking about is WQXR, currently 105.9 FM. It used to be owned by the NY Times but became a public station (NPR) last fall I think. There has been a hue and cry from fans over the playlist issue. It was really nice to be able to plan your listening, especially since with classical you sometimes want to
set aside an hour or two to savor a long piece. You used to be able tosay,"Oh, there's a new recording of Beethoven's E flat major symphony that I want to catch Wednesday night at 9:06" or whatever.
This is an awesome site for musical research, BTW. I love being able to see full scores!
Treppa, if you're reading this, I have to say: THANK YOU!!!
Some months ago, a series of changes in my life forced me to quit RPGs. (I'm still stewing over that...) I decided to try to fill that void with another hobby, so I'm taking up piano again. There's a bunch of pieces that I've wanted to play for SOOO long, but I'm usually too cheap to buy a music book just for one piece in it. But now that I know about imslp.org, I can download music for FREE! I downloaded, and started learning to play, "The Old Castle" from Pictures at an Exhibition, by Mussorgsky. Treppa, I can't thank you enough.
And that's just the beginning. I also want to play a bunch of Chopin pieces I've mentioned on this thread. And a certain movement of a Beethoven sonata... and a certain Bach prelude... and...
Treppa, if you're reading this, I have to say: THANK YOU!!!
Aaron, you are very welcome. <3 Glad that somebody enjoys that place as much as I. Enjoy your return to music. There was a big hole in my life while I wasn't playing.
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Treppa, if you're reading this, I have to say: THANK YOU!!!Aaron, you are very welcome. <3 Glad that somebody enjoys that place as much as I. Enjoy your return to music. There was a big hole in my life while I wasn't playing.
Huh. A lot of stuff on that website was uploaded by the Sibley Music Library, right here in town. It's a fantastic place.
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This thread needs a bump.
Consider checking out Brahms's first symphony. It grabs you right from the beginning. The dramatic opening and the key of C minor identify it as a successor to Beethoven's fifth so much that it has been called "Beethoven's Tenth" (and Brahms admitted as much). The conclusion, on the other hand, has a chorale-like section that is modelled more on Beethoven's ninth (the Ode to Joy); when someone felt the need to point this out to Brahms, he replied, "Any ass can see that."
If you're not familiar, it's worth listening to.
What grabs ME right from the beginning is the first movement of Brahms' THIRD symphony. It's the very essence of Brahms' music. The most "Brahmsian" piece of all. And the third movement is catchy as well.
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What grabs ME right from the beginning is the first movement of Brahms' THIRD symphony. It's the very essence of Brahms' music. The most "Brahmsian" piece of all. And the third movement is catchy as well.
The opening theme of the 3rd Symphony is actually based on the conclusion of one of Schumann's symphonies (either his 3rd or 4th - I forget). It's as if he's saying "I'm picking up where Schumann left off." Great stuff!
The opening theme of the 3rd Symphony is actually based on the conclusion of one of Schumann's symphonies (either his 3rd or 4th - I forget). It's as if he's saying "I'm picking up where Schumann left off." Great stuff!
That's interesting. Brahms' 3rd Symphony 3rd movement begins with this sad, full-force sobbing-type theme. (Or rather, that's the way it sounds to ME.)
When I first discovered Shumann's 4th Symphony, second movement, the opening sounded to me like it was starting out like Brahms' 3rd / 3rd movement, but then... it drifts off uncertainly. It's almost like Shumann is saying "I'm giving you a sad sob... uh, wait. Didn't Brahms already write this? Uh... I'll make it say something different. I'm not sure what. Give me a minute. I'll come up with something..."
(Yes, I'm aware that Schumann wrote his symphonies BEFORE Brahms started work on his. But this is just what it sounded like to me.)
Oh, and another thing, to bring Beethoven's 9th back into it. Brahms' 1st piano concerto - which began life as a symphony - begins sounding very much like Beethoven's ninth symphony, to my ears.
Saw this link on another site. Thought I'd share. Quite a buy for $2.49!
That's a lot of MP3s for $2.49...
I know right? 2 1/2 cents per for some of the best pieces classical music can offer. I was floored when I saw the link.
That's a lot of MP3s for $2.49...I know right? 2 1/2 cents per for some of the best pieces classical music can offer. I was floored when I saw the link.
Yeah, I'm going to pick it up. I have a lot of classical CDs, but I like the convenience of those 99 songs in one location. The price is worth that archival convenience.
Gotta admit, though, not all of those pieces are what I'd consider "dark." But hey, they had to fill out the 99, and they're some damned fine works. Not always the best rendition of said works, but passable. Gopher it!
Yeah, it was good to pad out the old iPod with. I like classical, but I'm not enough of a fan to know one symphonic rendition from another. Cheap I do know, and like.
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Yeah, I'm going to pick it up. I have a lot of classical CDs, but I like the convenience of those 99 songs in one location. The price is worth that archival convenience.That's a lot of MP3s for $2.49...I know right? 2 1/2 cents per for some of the best pieces classical music can offer. I was floored when I saw the link.
Downloading now. I think I have most of them, but I'm curious to see what they chose and such.
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I finished listening to the entire 99-track playlist on Friday.
I agree with Treppa that a few of the renditions are questionable (Tbilisi State Orchestra?), but most are quite good.
A few choices seem a bit odd to me, but I think that's a given, since "dark" is rather subjective. Does dark mean stormy? Sad? Ominous? There seem to be examples of all of those. I think the idea is that dark can mean any of those things, and they are all represented. There are a few "dark" pieces I would add, if I was doing the list myself, and may post those as recommendations in the next day or so when I am posting from home. Obviously, though, they would just be my opinion, which is no more or less valid than that of those who made the compilation.
This need not be taken as criticism of the compilation, per se. The weight given to Germanic and Slavic composers in the compilation is similar to that given to them by the Classical Music community in the US at large. It might have been interesting to see them break that mould, but it's hardly a serious indictment that they did not.
That said, I was glad to see a number of very recent composers featured, including Pärt, Pendercki, and Górecki. Kudos on that.
Final thoughts: There is no darkness without light. Some of the choices highlighted that issue in interesting ways. Consider Beethoven's Egmont Overture; its triumphant ending stands in contrast to the brooding drama that proceeds it. Ravel's La Valse represents the sounds of a ballroom as heard from a distance; thus, little flashes of color and light pierce through the murk, but there's always something of a veil between the listener and the music, as of hearing something from the next room.
I think this question explains the absence of a very likely composition: Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony (Pathetique). That's an example of a work where the darkness only makes sense within context. The symphony is at times very lively or even hopeful, but the stark finale projects crushing despair. On its own, the finale is dark, but when it is contrasted with everything that came before it, it is unspeakably bleak. Putting the entire 4 movement symphony on the list would be impractical, while putting just the finale on the list would have lost something. Leaving it out altogether was probably the best choice, and I wonder if the compilers felt the same way.
Thank you for posting the link, and I am happy to have added several of the tracks into my regular playlists. There were quite a few pieces that were completely new to me and I'm loving them.
Oh, now I see that mvmts 4 and 5 of Berlioz's Symphonie made the list, so that is another 2 for Frenchmen. That would have been an egregious omission. Just scanning I also see Satie and Dukas represented, so a couple more Gauls. I understand why they list the artist as the performer(s), but it is annoying that you have to click a couple of times to find out who the composer of each one is.
Driving Under the Influence. I thought this was pretty silly until I found myself doing almost 90 mph on the expressway because "Flying Dutchman Overture" had my adrenaline going.I would buy "The Ride of the Valkyries" as a dangerous choice. I've listened to it in the car, but I'm a bit of a speed demon anyway. The scherzo from Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony is another dangerous driving choice, albeit for different reasons. (What can I say? The music was just zipping along, and I was too...)
Yeah, funny story... or at least it is now... I got to spend a nice evening in comedy traffic school after listening to Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony while trying to wind down after a tough exam in grad-school... *chuckle*
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Oh, now I see that mvmts 4 and 5 of Berlioz's Symphonie made the list, so that is another 2 for Frenchmen. That would have been an egregious omission. Just scanning I also see Satie and Dukas represented, so a couple more Gauls. I understand why they list the artist as the performer(s), but it is annoying that you have to click a couple of times to find out who the composer of each one is.
I knew I should have double counted! Yes, those help the number a bit. Still lopsided, but perhaps a tad less so.
Teutons in classical music is one of those eternal imponderables. I'm sure many reasons for their prominence have been adduced, probably none really to anyone's satisfaction. I'm comfortable with a shrug or a 'something in the water over there' hypothesis.
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Oh, now I see that mvmts 4 and 5 of Berlioz's Symphonie made the list, so that is another 2 for Frenchmen. That would have been an egregious omission. Just scanning I also see Satie and Dukas represented, so a couple more Gauls. I understand why they list the artist as the performer(s), but it is annoying that you have to click a couple of times to find out who the composer of each one is.I knew I should have double counted! Yes, those help the number a bit. Still lopsided, but perhaps a tad less so.
I also missed the two selections from the Peer Gynt Suite by Grieg, bringing the number of Scandinavian works to 3. That's what I get for counting by memory. Still lopsided, but I should be more accurate :)
CH: I noticed the Tbilisi orchestra, too. But I try to reserve judgement until I hear them. There are some obscure groups filled with excellent musicians and delightful conductors, so never assume it's going to be bad. That said, some of the renditions in this 99 are rather flat.
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Ok, I mentioned I would post a few recommendations:
A classic Baroque choice: The Dance of the Furies from Gluck's Orfeo
I don't usually think of Haydn as dark (so much of his music embodies everything associated with lightness) but he had his moments: Kyrie from the Nelsonmesse by Haydn
I wanted some more French choices, so here's a few:
Franck's Symphonic Variations
Franck's Chorale no. 2 in b minor for organ
La Mort de Melisande from Faure's Pelleas et Melisande suite
Poulenc's Gloria, "Domine Deus"
A good English choice: The main theme from Elgar's Enigma Variations
I think they chose the wrong Bruckner for the list: Bruckner's 6th, 2nd movement
And for good measure: Schumann's 3rd Symphony ("Rhenish"), 4th movement
Let me know what you think.
What are you listening to that's tickled your fancy recently?
Dvorak's Symphony #8, 3rd movement.
Bizet's Symphony #1 in C Major, all 4 movements.
And, while I keep bad-mouthing Mozart, I also keep discovering more Mozart pieces that I decide are exceptional. Lately, it's been his Symphony #39 (notably the 1st movement, although I recently listened to the complete symphony while I was at it) and his Serenata Notturna (his Serenade #6, K 239, all 3 movements.)
Also, Schubert's 5th Symphony, the 1st and 3rd movements. They sound classical, to my ears.
I've been listening to the Dance of the Miller's Wife, from the Three-Cornered Hat suite by de Falla, and to the 3rd movement of Gershwin's piano concerto. It seems weird for me to throw those two pieces together. They have nothing to do with each other, and are of completely different forms, styles, media, countries, and cultures. But it just so happened that I recently listened to those two pieces during the same car trip, and to my surprise and amusement, I found my mind blurring the two pieces together, simply because they both have vaguely similar themes that rapidly repeat the tonic note. My mind makes strange connections sometimes.
I bought 2 MP3 files of Boccherini's Fandango - one performance of the original, and one arrangement for guitar quartet. I understand that Boccherini, who spent the last 48 years of his life in Spain, complained that he never understood what the Spanish style of music was. Well, I'm no expert, but that Fandango sounds Spanish to me!
There, that was a lot of pieces. Chances are that someone will want to comment on at least one of them.
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Sure, I'll comment on one of those!
Gershwin's piano concerto, 3rd mvt: best use of a gong ever.
And that theme that follows it (which is used repeatedly in the 1st movement) is something I can only describe as "American malaise". That theme sounds so lonely to me, but has a blues edge to it; it conjures an image to me of someone alone in a big city. Gershwin's music is the soundtrack of New York.