Training weapon and armor proficiency

[TLO3]

I want to come up with a system for granting proficiency with certain weapons and armor using game time spent training or skill points instead of a feat. I see no reason any character couldn't learn to use a weapon or armor through practice. Feats, IMO, should be reserved for the more fantastic abilities a player learns.

For skill points, I'm thinking something along the lines of having a skill called martial training. Putting points into it works somewhat like linguistics does for languages except different proficiencies have different costs. Right now I'm thinking something along these lines :
(Note that ranks are not cumulative but a new total for each proficiency. Martial and exotic weapon profs require at least Simple Weapon proficiency, and each step in armor requires the previous. Proficiency gained through class abilities applies of course.)

1 rank: Light Armor Proficiency or Simple Weapon Proficiency (all)(think basic weapon handling)
2 ranks: Medium Armor Proficiency or 1 Martial Weapon Proficiency
3 ranks: Heavy Armor Proficiency
4 ranks: 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency (all)

Alternatively, I may just set up an amount of training time and cost of trainer for different proficiencies. I'd let any party member with the desired proficiency act as a trainer. Maybe use similar time frames as those listed for teaching tricks under handle animal.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[TLO3]

I'd actually like some feedback be it positive negative or indifferent.

[calvinNhobbes]

The game basically already does this through BAB and ACP.

BAB represents the slow incremental training in combat. You could make BAB into a skill instead, perhaps broken into weapon groups like the knowledge or craft skills.
Example:
Melee Combat (STR): Pick a melee weapon group, you character gets this bonus when using weapons of that group.
Range Combat (Dex): Pick a ranged weapon group, your character gets this bonus when using weapons of that group.

ACP works by providing a penalty to attack rolls (if non-proficient) and STR and DEX based skills. If you use the skill substitution provided above, it then simply becomes a penalty to STR and DEX skills. You overcome the ACP (ie. armor training/mastery) by using skill points to improve your STR and DEX based skills.

For even more fun, notice that Arcane failure is basically a linear function of ACP, ie. AF = ACP*(-5%)-(5% to 10%). You can simply remove AF and roll it into skills.
For example, say casting a spell with a somatic component requires a DC 0 sleight of hand check (the skill closest to modeling hand-eye coordination). Basically, the mage will make it every time, but if they have an ACP then there is a chance they will fail and lose the spell. But if they are very dextrous, or improve their dexterity skills like sleight of hand they can overcome this chance of failure.

Alot of nifty things can be done with the skill system if you look to see how it can relates to other rules in the system.

[EJVW]

Disclaimer - Our group plays a fairly heavily modified version of Pathfinder, so what I have to offer on this subject may not be all that easily portable into anyone else's game.

As part of our house-rules, we transitioned away from using feats for Armor, Shield and Weapons Proficiencies (instead utilizing the skill-points) when WotC was the basis of our table-play. We've retained this modification into our adoption of Pathfinder.

Armor Proficiencies
* By investing skill points into Light Armor Proficiency, a character reduces his/her armor check penalty (while wearing a chain shirt, cord armor, leather armor, padded armor, sharkskin armor or studded leather armor) by one point per rank.

* By investing skill points into Medium Armor Proficiency, a character reduces his/her armor check penalty (while wearing a breastplate, brigandine armor, chainmail armor, coin armor, feild plate armor, hide armor, laminated silk vest, ring mail, scale mail or shell armor) by one point per rank.

* By investing skill points into Heavy Armor Proficiency, a character reduces his/her armor check penalty (while wearing banded mail, bronze plate, coral plate, Dwarven heavy plate, full plate, half plate [aka plate mail], splint mail or three-quarter plate) by one point per rank.

The maximum benefit of each grouping's armor penalty reducing feature of is to zero out one's armor check penalty. No amount of proficiency in any armor group can turn wearing that kind of armor into a boon when one attempts an Attack on the Move, Backstabbing, Balanced Movement, Climbing, Escape Artistry, Hiding, Jumping, Moving Silently, Riding, Running, Sleight of Hand, Swimming or Tumbling.

Also, at 5th rank, a trained character can sleep in any proficient armor without waking fatigued. (The Endurance feat retains all of its other benefits at our table, but appropriate armor proficiency is the only way to sleep armored without automatically suffering fatigue.)

Shield Proficiency
Unlike Armor Proficiency or Weapons Proficiency, where a trained character can become proficient in multiple groups of similar items, a character trained in Shield Proficiency has only one skill (which allows him/her to not only use any kind of shield [buckler, light, heavy or tower], but also allows him/her to attempt certain trained-only tasks: Shield Bash, Shield Charge, Shield Rush, Shield Slam and Shield Throw). These trained-only tasks mirror the identically named v3.5 feats ; we just don't have the feats available at our table.

* By investing skill points into Shield Proficiency, a character increases his/her likelihood of beating the DC associated with each defined task.

Weapons Proficiencies
* By investing skill points into each Weapon's Proficiency, a character gains access to defined benefits:

At 1st rank (called Familiarity), the character can utilize all special features of the proficient weapon (e.g. brace, disarm, trip and wrap-around).

At 5th rank (called Specialization), the character gains the benefit of the Weapon Specialization (Designated Weapon) feat from PFCRB (which isn't available at our table as a feat).

At 10th rank (called Expertise), the character gains the benefit of the Greater Weapon Specialization (Designated Weapon) feat from PFCRB (which isn't available at our table as a feat).

At 15th rank (called Mastery), the character can inflict a designated non-standard type of damage when using the proficient weapon (i.e. arrows normally deal piercing damage, but a character with mastery of the longbow can learn to intentionally fire missiles in such a way as to slash at his/her target; alternatively, a claymore normally deals slashing damage, but a character with mastery of the two-handed sword can use its flat-edge to bludgeon his/her opponents) without incurring the usual -4 unfamiliarity penalty.

At 20th rank (called Grandmastery), the character gains the benefits of the Weapon Supremacy (Designated Weapon) feat from PHB II (which isn't available at our table as a feat).

Admittedly, our house-rules on these matters differ significantly in their details from your proposed solution, but their genesis sprang from what I'm interpreting as the same frustration: feats ought to be wondrous abilities; wearing armor, using a shield or wielding a weapon is too mundane of heroes’ activities to warrant the cost of a feat. With so many more skill points earned over a 20-level career than feats, skill points seem to be mechanically "cheap" enough to spend on armor proficiency, shield proficiency and weapons proficiency. At least for the kinds of adventures we tend to embark upon…

[TLO3]

EJVW wrote:

Disclaimer - Our group plays a fairly heavily modified version of Pathfinder, so what I have to offer on this subject may not be all that easily portable into anyone else's game...

Those are some good ideas. I'd be afraid of taking too much away from fighters, though, what with giving anyone armor check penalty reductions and weapon specialization. They would need to get something back.

[EJVW]

TLO3 wrote:

... I'd be afraid of taking too much away from fighters, though, what with giving anyone armor check penalty reductions and weapon specialization. They would need to get something back.

Quite right! I should've clarified that only warrior-type classes (Barbarians, Fighters, Knights, Monks, Paladins and Rangers) can obtain 5th+ rank in Armor Proficiencies and Weapons Proficiencies at our table. -- Additionally, our Fighters are also fairly heavily modified from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook formula (to ensure that they retain their best-at-arms niche). My apologies; it’s tough to relate just a slice of our game-world since so many tweaks apply...