(Originally posted in 3.5 section, repeated here altered for PRPG.)
Hey! So, my group has finally figured out a way to make our 35th to 40th level characters ]i]PLAYABLE[/i], and it was kind of in front of our faces the whole time!
Now, a lot of the people who want to play epic, want to play EPIC! 13th level spells, Arcane fire, Balance checks to walk on walls, the whole 9 yards. (I contend that this style is not really playable past about 30th level.) If that's you, then this will not satisfy-fair warning.
If, however, you are like me and my friends, you may just want a mechanically solid way to keep playing your favorite treasure-seekers. So here it is:
Stop all numerical increases based on character level or class level, at level 20.
That means 20 Hit Dice, 20th level BAB, 20th level base saves, etc. Abilities that depend on class level stop at 20th level in that class, so you can multiclass and still get your maximum goodies (spell casting level, sneak attack etc.). The exception is abilities that stack with other classes; these all have a maximum effective level of 20 (so a Rogue 15/Assassin 10 can still only have 10 sneak attack dice).
You always take the best value for all your classes and levels, to a max of 20th level ability (so a Ftr10/Rog10 who then raised fighter to 20 would have 20d10 Hit Dice, not 10d10 + 10d6). You cannot advance a class past 20th level (or the highest level listed for a non-epic PrC).
Skill ranks also stop at max 20 in a skill (but skill points still accrue). You just have to diversify, it'll be fun.
As for the non-numericals: You continue to gain feats at normal intervals for character feats, and whatever is normal for any class feats (to max class level). You gain an ability increase every four levels as normal. You also gain skill points for all your epic levels, subject to the spending limits listed above. You gain any class features that you normally would in a class you advance, except the values derived from your level or class level are limited to 20th level of ability.
A note on epic spell slots; we are still thinking about this one. I might introduce a series of feats that let you take a very limited number of spell slots beyond 9th, for the purposes of casting high level metamagic spells. As far as epic spellcasting goes, I think treating them as complex, expensive, and dangerous rituals on a case by case basis is best.
I figure your CR equivalency goes up by one for every 3 levels past 20. So you can set up encounters based on that. I haven't play tested it yet, so that's just my gut estimate.
The only problem we have yet to figure out is gear. I forgot to mention that magical enhancements (etc.) also stop at 20th. Basically, the maximum numbers listed for magic items in the DMG are the MAX. (except for artifacts, making them relevant again--though I would keep their numbers fairly low as well). So the problem is money, and not having every item slot have three +5 magic item abilities in it.
I am aware that this is much the same as was presented in FRCS with the exception of Epic Spell slots.
Anyway, it isn't for everyone, but it might have a wider appeal than the normal epic rules.
Really......no one has anything scathing to say on this topic....at all?
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I have been slowly trying to work on epic rules recently myself, if you would like to see what I've come up with you can see it here.
The basic idea I went with was similar to yours to a limited extent. All things extend in a single set fashion after 20th level. The difference is that for each purpose you can pick the "best" 20 levels for the purposes of what the "base" number is. The main difference between our approaches is that mine still advances your HD count, meaning you still get new feats and hit points and such.
For balance's sake I currently have "base" saves capped at 12.
Obviously the rules I'm working on are far from perfect, and I haven't had a chance to test them yet, but at least its a grounds to start discussion.
A few points about your method:
1) Skill point heavy characters are punished by capping everything at 20 as there are only so many skills one can take that at all fit with your concept. I haven't figured out much of a way to handle this kind of issue, or the issue of the limited usefulness of having more skills yet. One idea I had was to have higher points unlock new uses in some manner.
2) Not extending hit dice means not extending feats, meaning you cut off one primary method of diversifying your character. It also means no more HP, and durability is one of the most common features of epic characters in all mediums.
3) Gear beyond the ken of normal mortals is also a common theme to Epic, but should still be limited. My solution was to double the numerical cap on all items but add an exponential curve to the price (doubles every X more) to make balancing wealth easier.
4) For epic spells I had something similar in mind to you (just adding higher level spell slots) but also extending that by making the lower level spells start acting like cantrips (infinite cast) and making both prepared and spontaneous casters identical for these pseudo-cantrips (to point out that they are hitting the roots of magic).
EDIT: Ignore my point about not extending feats, somehow didn't notice you made an exception for that. My point about HP stands, though. And it adds a new point: If you extend feats and spells but not HP, people get more and more fragile relative to the power they dish out. Just a thought.
I have been slowly trying to work on epic rules recently myself, if you would like to see what I've come up with you can see it here.
The basic idea I went with was similar to yours to a limited extent. All things extend in a single set fashion after 20th level. The difference is that for each purpose you can pick the "best" 20 levels for the purposes of what the "base" number is. The main difference between our approaches is that mine still advances your HD count, meaning you still get new feats and hit points and such.
For balance's sake I currently have "base" saves capped at 12.
Obviously the rules I'm working on are far from perfect, and I haven't had a chance to test them yet, but at least its a grounds to start discussion.
A few points about your method:
1) Skill point heavy characters are punished by capping everything at 20 as there are only so many skills one can take that at all fit with your concept. I haven't figured out much of a way to handle this kind of issue, or the issue of the limited usefulness of having more skills yet. One idea I had was to have higher points unlock new uses in some manner.
2) Not extending hit dice means not extending feats, meaning you cut off one primary method of diversifying your character. It also means no more HP, and durability is one of the most common features of epic characters in all mediums.
3) Gear beyond the ken of normal mortals is also a common theme to Epic, but should still be limited. My solution was to double the numerical cap on all items but add an exponential curve to the price (doubles every X more) to make balancing wealth easier.
4) For epic spells I had something similar in mind to you (just adding higher level spell slots) but also extending that by making the lower level spells start acting like cantrips (infinite cast) and making both prepared and spontaneous casters identical for these pseudo-cantrips (to point out that they are hitting the...
Yeah, I'm not too worried about people running out of skills to buy. I'm really tired of skill bonuses in the +45 to +50 range. They are totally meaningless. I figure there aren't simply "only so many skills" but there is only so much skill you can have in any one thing.
Regarding durability: It sounds like you are seeking what I said at the beginning of my post, truly EPIC play. That's cool. We did that, and it didn't work out for us. That's why we are trying it this way. I am also tired of fighters with 650 hp and WIZARDS with 450 hp (Con is king).
Same with gear. The problem is, people are right. The numbers in epic just aren't supported in d20 as written. I personally have a goal of adapting my own d20 based on Pathfinder, Star Wars Saga Edition, and 4E; which will give good solid play to 30 and be playable to 40 or so. But it is not this day. For that I will have to pry my friends death-grip off of the PRPG Core Rulebook. sigh
I dig your idea for "cantripizing" higher spells, I have had that one myself for a long time. In fact, in our games we recover all spells each encounter (except the highest level you can cast; those are still daily). We considered having lower levels eventually be at will, but decided that they were for all practical purposes, and actually making them at will might open up some epic cheese larder that we don' want to know about. Honestly, the rapid spell recovery is too generous as is, but it also is not as broken as it sounds.
Finally, I don't increase spells, so people don't get significantly weaker vs spellcasters.
I appreciate your interest, I'll look over you rules. And good luck.
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What I was looking for with my rules was something that would make Epic characters seem obviously more powerful than non-Epic characters. Not to the extent that they are untouchable as soon as the transition occurs, but enough that a 25th level character would be a difficult encounter for a 20th level party. You know, extend the CR curve. Whether or not I succeed on this goal is another matter entirely.
Hey Stabbity,
I looked over your epic rules in detail. Pretty cool work up, I think you'll get sick of it a lot slower than my group did. One word of caution though, the problem is never the epic magic items, it is the non-epic magic items. The wealth by level guide is broken in 3.5, your 20% is slightly better. I built a very conservative chart that cuts down quickly to 10% but our PCs over 30th still have too much in the way of resources. Even your 23rd level example would be nuts to spend money on an extra plus when he could easily buy multiple non-slot +5 items of various unusual bonus types (luck, sacred, etc.). That is still a problem I am wrestling with.
I really like your Epic Spellcasting Bonus and all it's sundry applications; very elegant. However, it is very difficult to follow. I can because, well, I'm a rules hound and a communicator, but that is some pretty thick loopty-loop rule writing. I know it is difficult to explain in textbook format how some rules apply. I'm not criticizing you, I'm sympathizing with you. I'm just saying, you might want to give them another pass when you have the energy.
Cheers
What I was looking for with my rules was something that would make Epic characters seem obviously more powerful than non-Epic characters. Not to the extent that they are untouchable as soon as the transition occurs, but enough that a 25th level character would be a difficult encounter for a 20th level party. You know, extend the CR curve. Whether or not I succeed on this goal is another matter entirely.
Oh, I think you will succeed at that goal, in spades. My goal, conversely, is to flatten the CR curve beyond 20. So my 25th level party will be challenged normally by CR 21 to 22, and a CR 25 Great Wyrm will remain an epic encounter.
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I'm not the best communicator in the world. I usually have a terrible wording first, and come up with a better wording later.
I've done a bit to clean up the wording some. Hopefully it's more clear.
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To expand on the item issue: Players also have no reason not to go to a +1 non-slot insight, +1 non-slot sacred and a +1 non-slot luck at relatively low level. Each only costs 5k and is cheaper than adding another +1 to even a +1 item. This is an innate problem with the system, not necessarily a problem with the wealth level. If a character really wanted they could have +5 of all three of those types for 375,000 (all non-slot) of their 880,000 20th level wealth budget.
The real question is: Should you simply allow a player to have any of those other bonuses, or should they be reserved for rare or story items? Without them the system isn't so bad.
To expand on the item issue: Players also have no reason not to go to a +1 non-slot insight, +1 non-slot sacred and a +1 non-slot luck at relatively low level. Each only costs 5k and is cheaper than adding another +1 to even a +1 item. This is an innate problem with the system, not necessarily a problem with the wealth level. If a character really wanted they could have +5 of all three of those types for 375,000 (all non-slot) of their 880,000 20th level wealth budget.
The real question is: Should you simply allow a player to have any of those other bonuses, or should they be reserved for rare or story items? Without them the system isn't so bad.
Well, that's the real trick isn't it?.....
Seriously, that's easier said than done in a long running epic veteran group where everybody DMs sometimes. Lot of desire for "out of the boxness". But you are right, that is an element I wish had been addressed in this reboot. The plethora of bonuses have been on my hit list for years.
I'm not the best communicator in the world. I usually have a terrible wording first, and come up with a better wording later.
I've done a bit to clean up the wording some. Hopefully it's more clear.
That is a lot better. Again, I followed it pretty well, I was just concerned that you might have trouble "selling it" to others. Nice.
Sounds like the basic premise behind E6. You stop leveling at a certain point, and simply gain more sideways benefits (more feats/skillpoints, rather than higher maximum pluses).
An "e20" so to speak.
I could see it working to alleviate the problems that Epic level play always seems to have: invalidating the d20 roll, and disparity between focused and non-focused players.
Regarding skills... There's 33 pathfinder skills, plus Craft, Perform and Profession, which can have a large list of subskills themselves.
And many classes have only 2-4 skillpoints per level. There's plenty of room for skillpoints in this game.
(Originally posted in 3.5 section, repeated here altered for PRPG.)
Hey! So, my group has finally figured out a way to make our 35th to 40th level characters PLAYABLE, and it was kind of in front of our faces the whole time!
Now, a lot of the people who want to play epic, want to play EPIC! 13th level spells, Arcane fire, Balance checks to walk on walls, the whole 9 yards. (I contend that this style is not really playable past about 30th level.) If that's you, then this will not satisfy-fair warning.
If, however, you are like me and my friends, you may just want a mechanically solid way to keep playing your favorite treasure-seekers. So here it is:
Stop all numerical increases based on character level or class level, at level 20.
That actually reminds me a bit of 1st and 2nd edition D&D. At a certain point, being 35th level instead of 20th wasn't that much of an improvement for a character with class levels.
Sounds like the basic premise behind E6. You stop leveling at a certain point, and simply gain more sideways benefits (more feats/skillpoints, rather than higher maximum pluses).
An "e20" so to speak.
I could see it working to alleviate the problems that Epic level play always seems to have: invalidating the d20 roll, and disparity between focused and non-focused players.
Regarding skills... There's 33 pathfinder skills, plus Craft, Perform and Profession, which can have a large list of subskills themselves.
And many classes have only 2-4 skillpoints per level. There's plenty of room for skillpoints in this game.
Yes exactly, I only recently heard about E6 and I was intrigued. I wouldn't dream of actually trying something that extreme with my group (and I personally think 6th level is an odd arbitrary stopping point), but I was discussing the philosophy behind it with my friend and he said, "we could do that at 20th". I was like, "holy crap, you're right, this is what we've been looking for for years". And so it began.
That actually reminds me a bit of 1st and 2nd edition D&D. At a certain point, being 35th level instead of 20th wasn't that much of an improvement for a character with class levels.(Originally posted in 3.5 section, repeated here altered for PRPG.)
Hey! So, my group has finally figured out a way to make our 35th to 40th level characters PLAYABLE, and it was kind of in front of our faces the whole time!
Now, a lot of the people who want to play epic, want to play EPIC! 13th level spells, Arcane fire, Balance checks to walk on walls, the whole 9 yards. (I contend that this style is not really playable past about 30th level.) If that's you, then this will not satisfy-fair warning.
If, however, you are like me and my friends, you may just want a mechanically solid way to keep playing your favorite treasure-seekers. So here it is:
Stop all numerical increases based on character level or class level, at level 20.
It is kind of a refreshing "blast from the past" without the horrid limitations of the old ways. We've been converting characters in the ramp-up to actually playing, and it just gets more exciting the more we mess with it and talk about the possibilities. We're talking about resurrecting games we've not touched for over 5 YEARS.
I quite like the 3.0/3.5 epic rules and found they work pretty well with reasonable players/guidelines. I didn't run all the way to 35th-40th though, only 30th-31st.
That said, I think the system you outlined up above works pretty well. If I understand correctly, that makes a 20th level Wizard who starts leveling in Fighter get an additional BAB every other level (counting as Ftr2/Wiz18 at 22nd for instance).
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My one major problem with the old epic rules was that epic spellcasting was very unbalanced. A DC 60 (easily done by a lvl 23 wizard) could net you something like a +40 armor bonus to AC for several days, whereas the same DC of offensive spell couldn't even match what you could do with mortal magic.
Outside of that I liked the basic premises that the differences between classes no longer expanded and that other things just continued progressing. I, however, prefer that characters branch out a little bit in epic level to people continuing a class to level 40 or so, but the two ideas aren't hard to marry.
Also, screw giving players "immunity" items like those rings of elemental immunity. "Hey, let's make everyone IMMUNE to the wizard!" Higher resistance? Fine. Immunity? Not at my table.
I've also looked at E6 rules before and found them interesting, but I still prefer the old "keep on truckin'" leveling rules. It's not as realistic (<-LOL), but as long as you keep the curve slower past around 5-6 the game doesn't get too focused on the act of leveling itself. Even moreso if you just tell players when they level (which I found my old group surprisingly receptive to when I just tossed it at them on a one-shot game once).
As for E20, it's certainly one way to run an epic game, and probably even a good one (especially since its easy to adjucate) but I think that that should be saved for more around E30 or E40 so that your base power level stops short of what a deity automatically has (but is still in the ballpark...ish) and you can never touch them unless they are somehow weakened. You know, the good story stuff.
Epic level magic really seems to be a lot of the deal breaker in the system. I didn't really mind things like getting higher level spells slots that really only do you any good for metamagic and the like, but I think epic magic tried to be too open ended and flexible in a system that doesn't really have the capacity to deal with open ended magic.
Personally, I think massive, earthshaking mega-magic would be much better modeled using something like Invocations (from Unearthed Arcana) with massive skill checks involved so as to more or less limit what level characters could pull off such rituals. I always felt as if, for example, Elven High Magic from the Forgotten Realms was much more like an Invocation than the epic magic rules.
Its not really "Epic Play" is it, though? Its more like what the MMO folks call "endgame play" whereby you never progress, but you get better items and a few perks, but you don't make any drastic improvements to your character over time. Its easy to call running in place "sustainable" because you're not getting anywhere.
What it comes down to is D&D was never built to have more than 20 levels, and even in the 20 level range things can get a bit ridiculous in the higher levels - primarily due to the effect that spellcasting has on the game. As much as people love the idea of playing their characters forever, the game just doesn't support that, and every attempt to frob it to do so has been clumsy at best.
Its not really "Epic Play" is it, though? Its more like what the MMO folks call "endgame play" whereby you never progress, but you get better items and a few perks, but you don't make any drastic improvements to your character over time. Its easy to call running in place "sustainable" because you're not getting anywhere.
Actually, it's somewhat opposite of what MMO's do. While an MMO might stop leveling, it continues to give you higher pluses through higher grade equipment. Most MMO's I've played didn't keep giving you extra abilities in place of higher pluses.
The equivalent of this in D&D would be to stop leveling at 20, but then keep giving the players higher Epic level equipment (breaking the +10/+6 enhancement barriers).
In this case, the pluses are specifically what are stopping, and you are simply getting more "things" to do. Since you still only have on round of actions, you are limited in what you can do at a time, however you will have more options, be able to respond to more situations, and get better combinations of effects.
Your effective CR will increase a little, however not as drastically or linearly as if you were getting higher pluses.
You are correct in that it could be accurately called "endgame play". My point being simply that it's handled quite a bit differently from most MMO's.
... I personally think 6th level is an odd arbitrary stopping point ...
There's two reasons.
First, the idea behind E6 came from an article that described how the d20 system was built very well to represent human capabilities up to a certain level. And that level was about 5th. A 5th level character has the stats to deal with the game's DCs as if they were "the best" a human can be.
Einstein was a 5th level character, so to speak.
This means at 6th level, you are getting into the realm of "super-human". And with added feats beyond that, you can get into the realm of "heroic" play. It even suggests that you could potentially play it as E7 or E10, depending on where you wanted to start/stop your heroic play (e10 being more wuxia, flying by wire level of gameplay).
A game based on Clash of the Titans would do well at E6... the hero is *just* a bit better than normal human capabilities, but still relies on large forces to take down that CR 10 Hydra, etc.
The second reason is because it's the moment where most PrCs start being allowed. This means you play your normal class up to 6th level, and then the DM can add certain prestige class abilities as feats that require 6th level (and requirements) to gain, or it allows him to disallow it completely if desired.
A shadowdancer's hide in plain sight at 1st level could have potentially devastating effects.. not to mention an Assassin's death attack in a world where magic is capped at 3rd level spells (the first resurrection spells are 5th level spells).
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This ties into E20 as well. There's a lot of abilities/feats/magic in the epic system that breaks the game's mechanics if you aren't getting skill checks in the 70s, and whatnot. Capping things at 20th prevents the ridiculousness, and allows you to play "epically" against the same creatures as before without worrying about things like... balancing on clouds.
Wouldn't this be makign your character gestalt, with some small differences?
I like the ideas put forward. I do doubt that i will use them but with these rules it is more likely I will give epic a proper try.
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My personal ideas for epic level play
Advancing beyond 20th level:
+2 hp / level for fighters & barbarians
+1 hp / level for all others
Skill points advance as normal
Feats advance as normal
Ability increases advance as normal
BAB and Save bonuses cease at 20th
Spells / Day & Spells known cease at 20th
Other level based abilities (sneak attack, caster level, etc) increases at half their normal rate beyond 20th level
Hard level cap at 36th level
I like the idea of epic spellcasting being involved rituals with at least one Spellcraft check. Not something you would do in the midst of combat.
I also think that there would need to be feats added that give spontaneous casters the ability to learn new spells, and for casters in general to increase the number of spells per day that can be cast. Likewise, non-casters could take feats to improve their relevant abilities beyond the slowdown/stoppage at 20th/36th level.
I think this would be a good system because it levels the power curve out a bit before it grinds to a halt, yet still allows for some decent level of advancement beyond 20th level. And it lets you create CR 40+ encounters to provide a still challenge even to a 36th level party.
Its not really "Epic Play" is it, though? Its more like what the MMO folks call "endgame play" whereby you never progress, but you get better items and a few perks, but you don't make any drastic improvements to your character over time. Its easy to call running in place "sustainable" because you're not getting anywhere.Actually, it's somewhat opposite of what MMO's do. While an MMO might stop leveling, it continues to give you higher pluses through higher grade equipment. Most MMO's I've played didn't keep giving you extra abilities in place of higher pluses.
The equivalent of this in D&D would be to stop leveling at 20, but then keep giving the players higher Epic level equipment (breaking the +10/+6 enhancement barriers).
In this case, the pluses are specifically what are stopping, and you are simply getting more "things" to do. Since you still only have on round of actions, you are limited in what you can do at a time, however you will have more options, be able to respond to more situations, and get better combinations of effects.
Your effective CR will increase a little, however not as drastically or linearly as if you were getting higher pluses.You are correct in that it could be accurately called "endgame play". My point being simply that it's handled quite a bit differently from most MMO's.
Well said Kaisoku, well said.
... I personally think 6th level is an odd arbitrary stopping point ...There's two reasons.
First, the idea behind E6 came from an article that described how the d20 system was built very well to represent human capabilities up to a certain level. And that level was about 5th. A 5th level character has the stats to deal with the game's DCs as if they were "the best" a human can be.
Einstein was a 5th level character, so to speak.
This means at 6th level, you are getting into the realm of "super-human". And with added feats beyond that, you can get into the realm of "heroic" play. It even suggests that you could potentially play it as E7 or E10, depending on where you wanted to start/stop your heroic play (e10 being more wuxia, flying by wire level of gameplay).
A game based on Clash of the Titans would do well at E6... the hero is *just* a bit better than normal human capabilities, but still relies on large forces to take down that CR 10 Hydra, etc.The second reason is because it's the moment where most PrCs start being allowed. This means you play your normal class up to 6th level, and then the DM can add certain prestige class abilities as feats that require 6th level (and requirements) to gain, or it allows him to disallow it completely if desired.
A shadowdancer's hide in plain sight at 1st level could have potentially devastating effects.. not to mention an Assassin's death attack in a world where magic is capped at 3rd level spells (the first resurrection spells are 5th level spells)..
This ties into E20 as well. There's a lot of abilities/feats/magic in the epic system that breaks the game's mechanics if you aren't getting skill checks in the 70s, and whatnot. Capping things at 20th prevents the ridiculousness, and allows you to play "epically" against the same creatures as before without worrying about things like... balancing on clouds.
...
You are quite right, I stuck my foot right in my mouth when I said "arbitrary", that was foolish. It isn't arbitrary, it is very well considered and deliberate. I apologize to the "authors" of E6.
What I meant was, I think that it is uncomfortably limited. I can see a "realistic space" for up to about 12th level, but certainly at least the obvious 10th level is preferable to 6th.....IMO.....
Honestly, the old 3.5 Epic rules were mostly ok for all but spellcasting. Epic casting was a mess. However, I think the basic problem could be solved by addressing two conflicting desires: higher level spell slots (10th+) and spell creation (actul epic spells).
Honestly, I must disagree. My group has played epic for three years, and we pretty much completely ignored the Epic Spellcasting feat, except for background stuff. The casters took one look at the spell rules, and a second look at the Epic Spellslot feat. And the rest was maximized-empowered-delayed blast sonicball-engulfed history....in small pieces.
Then we ground to a halt at about 35th level...and haven't been able to muster a fun game of it since 2004. And believe me, we tried.
OR, you could nix epic casting entirely, and everybody eventually becomes 20ftr/20rog/20wiz/20clr or some combo thereof.
And that's exactly what we're doing, only you can't have all those attack/save bonuses and hit dice all at the same time. The die only goes to 20.
Don't misunderstand me, I love the idea of some kind of linear progression into epic territory. I am always (slowly) working up house rules to make such a game work. Lately though, I have begun to question where epic really is....is it already in the top quarter of the levels? Kinda, but you need breathing room to keep going at least for awhile. But no matter what you do with linear mechanics, there will always be a wall built into the die-spread of your core mechanic.
I'm thinking the key is to advance slowly, with rich story-telling, make the upper third of the 20 levels feel epic, and use house rules (or a new system entirely) that support that.....and a few levels more.
I was thinking of throwing all sense of balance out the window and rewarding all levels beyond 20th with 15 points to spend as from the Mutants and Masterminds system. I would have to convert a few things to deal with hit points rather than the Toughness save system. I should run this by my players...
My one major problem with the old epic rules was that epic spellcasting was very unbalanced. A DC 60 (easily done by a lvl 23 wizard) could net you something like a +40 armor bonus to AC for several days, whereas the same DC of offensive spell couldn't even match what you could do with mortal magic.
Outside of that I liked the basic premises that the differences between classes no longer expanded and that other things just continued progressing. I, however, prefer that characters branch out a little bit in epic level to people continuing a class to level 40 or so, but the two ideas aren't hard to marry.Also, screw giving players "immunity" items like those rings of elemental immunity. "Hey, let's make everyone IMMUNE to the wizard!" Higher resistance? Fine. Immunity? Not at my table.
I will VEHEMENTLY disagree with you on this point.
Immunity to elemental damage is available as CORE SPELLS. Furthermore, you can get the same thing by shapechanging into something immune to that type of dmg (cold, fire subtypes, storm giant, dragons, etc).
What this ruling says is "It's okay for spellcasters to become immune to something, but if you aren't a spellcaster, rely on them for buffs, or tough crap for you!"
This has NEVER sat well with me. Non-casters rely on their gear because the casters often won't have the buffs, or prefer to buff themselves FIRST.
Immunity at high levels is largely there so you can ignore elemental terrain. There's so many ways around immunities it's not funny, from a simple targeted dispel, to feats which ignore it, to simply using a different attack form ("The red dragon breathes his mighty breath weapon...of acid upon you! What, surely you didn't think an Epic Dragon was going to bother using Fire on someone stupid enough to fight him, did you?")
It's the same kind of "Casters get great things, because spells are better then items" that has always made me grind my teeth. magic items in 1 and 2E had unique effects that spells simply could not duplicate. Now, they surpass them...EASILY. I mean, c'mon...Bite of the Werebear for +16 enhancement to Str, + other buffs, vs the max for a belt of Str +6???
Casters don't bother getting rings of elemental immunity...they just cast the effect. This slams the classes that can't cast, that's all.
===Aelryinth
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My one major problem with the old epic rules was that epic spellcasting was very unbalanced. A DC 60 (easily done by a lvl 23 wizard) could net you something like a +40 armor bonus to AC for several days, whereas the same DC of offensive spell couldn't even match what you could do with mortal magic.
Outside of that I liked the basic premises that the differences between classes no longer expanded and that other things just continued progressing. I, however, prefer that characters branch out a little bit in epic level to people continuing a class to level 40 or so, but the two ideas aren't hard to marry.Also, screw giving players "immunity" items like those rings of elemental immunity. "Hey, let's make everyone IMMUNE to the wizard!" Higher resistance? Fine. Immunity? Not at my table.
I will VEHEMENTLY disagree with you on this point.
Immunity to elemental damage is available as CORE SPELLS. Furthermore, you can get the same thing by shapechanging into something immune to that type of dmg (cold, fire subtypes, storm giant, dragons, etc).
What this ruling says is "It's okay for spellcasters to become immune to something, but if you aren't a spellcaster, rely on them for buffs, or tough crap for you!"
This has NEVER sat well with me. Non-casters rely on their gear because the casters often won't have the buffs, or prefer to buff themselves FIRST.
Immunity at high levels is largely there so you can ignore elemental terrain. There's so many ways around immunities it's not funny, from a simple targeted dispel, to feats which ignore it, to simply using a different attack form ("The red dragon breathes his mighty breath weapon...of acid upon you! What, surely you didn't think an Epic Dragon was going to bother using Fire on someone stupid enough to fight him, did you?")
It's the same kind of "Casters get great things, because spells are better then items" that has always made me grind my teeth. magic items in 1 and 2E had unique effects that spells simply...
And I don't allow elemental immunity spells either, unless they (by their nature) cannot make you immune to more than one thing at a time (such as polymorphing into a dragon) or have a limited amount of damage absorption (such as protection from energy).
Then again, I tend to be uncomfortable with "immunity" anyway. In my campaigns I houserule that anything that has immunity that isn't from its type, subtype or class ability instead has a strong resistance. The reason for this is that unless it's in your nature to be immune to something (such as being made of it, a la fire elemental) then there will be some number big enough to eventually hurt you. At least in my mind. I also have a weird way of rolling saves though that makes those huge bonuses reduce the chance for something to affect you below 5% without it ever hitting 0.I am curious to know, exactly what spell are you referring to with this elemental immunity deal?
Oh, and just so ya know, I would NEVER allow a caster to have something without also making it possible to place it in an item in some manner. I'm not that cold-hearted.
EDIT: I should mention that the main thing I have trouble with is the Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity. Great, now everyone above level X is immune to all elemental damage. Ever. Even if the spell is the most epic spell cast by a greater deity. Just doesn't sit well with me, especially since it destroys an entire classification of concepts and bonuses. Something that powerful needs to be an artifact and there for story only, not a regularly priced item.
I always thought that surely the hottest fires of some volcano deity or something like that would make even a normal random natural fire elemental "burn".
Practically speaking, in our games immunity does'nt exist. There is instead a simple resistance chart based on the creatures HD.
In any case, that resistance is high enough to make an ancient red dragon feel ticklish at best when blasted with a maximized delayed fireball. But a little one could get slightly hurt.
It's always kind of amusing when these posts pop up somewhere, mostly because it's like seeing thoughts from a younger self.
I've wrestled with the epic issue for a couple years now, form the perspective of seriously trying to revise the system. For some years before that (5 maybe?) I've been wrestling with the standard epic rules trying to make them work. Recently I put together a group of amateur designers to help out with the project. We're actually getting fairly close to being able to put out an initial set of ideas.
I do not approve your system, but that is largely because we are looking for different things. I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, but it clearly isn't more powerful characters.
My initial idea was continuing each classes progression normally, instead of the epic bonus feat crap, then I shifted more towards something like the 3.5 epic destinies released at the end of the edition. Finally I shifted to something in the middle, and now I'm actually closer to the 3.0 FRCS rules than anything.
One thing that has been clear for some time is that you need to standardize most bonuses across the board. This means not only attack bonuses and saves, but also AC increases. Right now we're running with +1 offensive/+1 defensive abilities alternating every other level, though we're considering a generic +1 all each level.
Ultimately exactly what the standardized bonuses are isn't as important as providing new abilities for PCs to use that are both fun, but not utterly game breaking. Epic spellcasting was game breaking. Multispell was gamebreaking. Improved Metamagic was game breaking. Feats that stacked anything multiple times were system breaking. Any epic magic system needs to be built more sanely to start. You might try looking up the fan based Fern/Merc system as a basis for a logical seed based system - it's the base I'm using.
On, and I'd never allow players to build the none standard (none enchantment, deflection, resistance, natural) bonuses into items. Luck, sacred, divine, and so forth should be reserved for specific spells or very specific items (staffs of power, luckstones). If you allow them to be built into everything the game becomes unmanageable long before epic.
I'll try to swing buy to add more later.
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Things I think are OK about epic leveling:
Continued advancement of BAB, saves, HD, feats, and stats. Also additional attacks based on BAB. Advancement of static class abilities (sneak attack, favored enemy, bardic music).
Things I think are needed (easy):
Rules for advanced forms of abilities and feats. i.e. Epic TWF that gives a 4th off hand attack (then 5th, then 6th, etc.) Epic specialization. Epic bardic music abilities. Epic rage powers. Mostly, these would just be boosts that can be added to existing abilities/feats. Any numeric bonus can be added again (Epic Toughness!), though some others may require balancing (Epic Rapid Shot?)
Things I think are needed (hard):
Spellcasting. Ugh. I once re-wrote the entire epic "spell seed" system into a free-form magic skill system (with spell slots used to lower the casting DC), but ultimately it was a bit of a mess (seed's didn't balance each other out). I would like to see epic casting as a more free-form system than the current Vancian rules allow.
And instead of additional spell slots above 9th, I want Epic Metamagic options that just REDUCE the level adjustment of the existing feat. These can be given out every 5th lvl. That would mean that you could use all your EMM options to reduce the lvl adjustment of quicken to 0, it would just take another 20 levels (and why not, for a 40th lvl caster?). After a while, yes, ALL spells will have any MM applied that you can get for free, but it would take forever (free Empower and Maximize at lvl 45).
Interestingly enough I was already planning on writing up such an Epic Metamagic feat. Though the thought did occur to me that with the one epic feat arcane casters no longer need to worry about spell failure (still spell).
I was thinking of making the feat "Reduce by 1, to a minimum of half rounded down". So enlarge, still, silent and extend all could become 0, but the rest are still at least +1.|
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Interestingly enough I was already planning on writing up such an Epic Metamagic feat. Though the thought did occur to me that with the one epic feat arcane casters no longer need to worry about spell failure (still spell).
I was thinking of making the feat "Reduce by 1, to a minimum of half rounded down". So enlarge, still, silent and extend all could become 0, but the rest are still at least +1.Well, this IS epic, so I figure: it still costs a bunch to reduce the costs to free, so why not let them spend it?
I did bat around the "reduce to min 1" mechanic, but that would forever prevent 9th lvl spells from getting any MM.
And, yeah, with 2 such uses, Wizards could cast spells with thought alone (Silent+Still+Eschew Materials). That's just cool.
In the epic rules I drew up epic casters get higher than 9th level slots. Up to 18th if they invest almost all of their epic feats into it (all but one).
But I will admit I also toyed with the idea of "reduce to 0" but didn't because of how it would interact with my epic rules.
Protection from Energy is the spell a ring of elemental immunity is based on. Basically all the ring is, is a regnerating Prot/Energy with so many hit points added to it it can't be overwhelmed.
Transforming into something with an energy subtype is even more useful.
There are feats which override elemental immunity to make your damage cause half even to the immune. This can be Searing Spell or Piercing Cold or even divine/profane versions of same.
You can also just go with force or prismatic effects, or just suppress the immunity. Doesn't work in dead magic areas, either.
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The ruling that you can't make magic items of non-standard bonuses is also another kick in the teeth to non-casters unless you don't let casters get those non-standard bonuses, either. It's why mages and clerics can buff up to higher levels then the tank fighter or superagile rogue...they can start stacking on bonuses the non-casters can't match, which is completely unfair.
If you make this ruling, then you should simply eliminate those bonuses entirely, to keep the field level.
===Aelryinth
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Protection from Energy is the spell a ring of elemental immunity is based on. Basically all the ring is, is a regnerating Prot/Energy with so many hit points added to it it can't be overwhelmed.
Transforming into something with an energy subtype is even more useful.
There are feats which override elemental immunity to make your damage cause half even to the immune. This can be Searing Spell or Piercing Cold or even divine/profane versions of same.
You can also just go with force or prismatic effects, or just suppress the immunity. Doesn't work in dead magic areas, either.
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The ruling that you can't make magic items of non-standard bonuses is also another kick in the teeth to non-casters unless you don't let casters get those non-standard bonuses, either. It's why mages and clerics can buff up to higher levels then the tank fighter or superagile rogue...they can start stacking on bonuses the non-casters can't match, which is completely unfair.If you make this ruling, then you should simply eliminate those bonuses entirely, to keep the field level.
===Aelryinth
Protection from Energy takes a spell slot to give immunity to the next X damage from one energy type. That is VERY different from passive immunity to infinite damage.
Note that the things you are referencing that break immunities are only in extra books. For my games, at least for flavor, I prefer that innate immunity be unbreakable. Then again, I remove immunity from creatures I think really should, with enough energy, be possible to bypass and replace it with hefty resistance.As for non-standard bonus types, I don't know of any base spells that give insight, sacred, profane or luck bonuses except in extremely limited quantities. In fact, I can't think of a base spell that gives these qualities (other than hallow and unhallow, but those are very specific and the spell is hard to set up so I think that's fine).
To be short, if a caster can do it an item can be made of it. BUT the unusual bonus types (luck, insight, sacred and profane) are only allowed in specific circumstances, regardless of their source.
Now, can we return this discussion of the epic ruleset(s) proposed within? If you wish to argue on then either make a new thread or email me or something.
CFTP and Stabbity, I really enjoyed reading you ideas about epic play, I currently have a party at 16th lvl and am trying to figure out some type of Epic rules, so this thread couldn't have come along at a better time.
I going to use your ideas as a base and bastardize them a bit; I'm allowing the static class abilities to continue to increase, as well as increases in the core classes, but, as you suggest, freeze BAB, and saves--but use the Epic bonuses and allow for improvement due to multi-classing. The core classes going over 20 will only get their static improvements along with some bonus feats. Ranks in skills will double in cost levels 21-30 and then triple 31-40 (if we get that far). HPs, I'm looking at their CON bonus per level.
We play tomorrow night, I'm going to bring these ideas to the table and see what the group thinks, keep the good ideas coming.