Well actually, my whole group went through it with hardly any casualties.My last official bump of this thread...Sadly I never player Mud Sorceror's Tomb though I did play Tomb of Horrors, which if I am totally honest was ingenious but completely pointless. If anyone survived it being played fairly then I'd love to hear from them.
Which version?
1ed with all the save or die or the wussy 3.5 version with save and get hurt a bit?
Well actually, my whole group went through it with hardly any casualties.
Well, let's hear about it then!
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Well actually, my whole group went through it with hardly any casualties.My last official bump of this thread...Sadly I never player Mud Sorceror's Tomb though I did play Tomb of Horrors, which if I am totally honest was ingenious but completely pointless. If anyone survived it being played fairly then I'd love to hear from them.
Please, do tell? I'm intrigued. What were their levels etc.
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Well actually, my whole group went through it with hardly any casualties.My last official bump of this thread...Sadly I never player Mud Sorceror's Tomb though I did play Tomb of Horrors, which if I am totally honest was ingenious but completely pointless. If anyone survived it being played fairly then I'd love to hear from them.
Which version?
1ed with all the save or die or the wussy 3.5 version with save and get hurt a bit?
Well I played it when it came out in v1.0 with the pink cover. I've seen the 3.5 version which I think is free from Wizards to download, but it is a breeze compared to v1.0.
@Marcus Aurelius
We had TPK. Lava slide, my PC was the only survivor because my mum wouldn't let me play that night!
I agree the 3.5 version is a wimp-out compared to the original. Now you have gamers saying how unfair it was, fall into a pit with spikes each poisoned three save or die saves please. Standard fair when I started. I'm not sure if people complain about the 3.5 save or be hurt a bit version or not
Slay Living should be renamed to Bruise Living...
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@Marcus Aurelius
We had TPK. Lava slide, my PC was the only survivor because my mum wouldn't let me play that night!
I agree the 3.5 version is a wimp-out compared to the original. Now you have gamers saying how unfair it was, fall into a pit with spikes each poisoned three save or die saves please. Standard fair when I started. I'm not sure if people complain about the 3.5 save or be hurt a bit version or notSlay Living should be renamed to Bruise Living...
Yup! I noticed that over the years the rules have successively become kinder to the PCs, especially now we have Challenge Ratings to make sure the GM doesn't get too hard on his players.
But back in the day, you were made to "think" more. You didn't have all these super new power attacks and a lot of the old high level spells didn't even give you a saving throw! Then there was the monster magic resistance, don't even get me started there.
You could play high level games where the magic user became an ornament just because his spells almost always didn't get past magic resistance let alone the saving throw.
In those days there were no pierce magic spells and such to punch a hole in the enemies numerous onion shells of resistances. In fact slay living is more like "tickle living" :0
Sheesh we needed high power magic items just to score the odd hit. Oft times we would just leg it out of the dungeon and formulate a new plan of attack. In tomb of horrors, my fighter never made it out, I know it was a trap that slew him but beyond that I have a mental block. The most memorable moment was our stupid mage jumping into the sphere of annihilation ;)
@Marcus Aurelius
We had TPK. Lava slide, my PC was the only survivor because my mum wouldn't let me play that night!
I agree the 3.5 version is a wimp-out compared to the original. Now you have gamers saying how unfair it was, fall into a pit with spikes each poisoned three save or die saves please. Standard fair when I started. I'm not sure if people complain about the 3.5 save or be hurt a bit version or notSlay Living should be renamed to Bruise Living...
Yup! I noticed that over the years the rules have successively become kinder to the PCs, especially now we have Challenge Ratings to make sure the GM doesn't get too hard on his players.
But back in the day, you were made to "think" more. You didn't have all these super new power attacks and a lot of the old high level spells didn't even give you a saving throw! Then there was the monster magic resistance, don't even get me started there.
You could play high level games where the magic user became an ornament just because his spells almost always didn't get past magic resistance let alone the saving throw.
In those days there were no pierce magic spells and such to punch a hole in the enemies numerous onion shells of resistances. In fact slay living is more like "tickle living" :0
Sheesh we needed high power magic items just to score the odd hit. Oft times we would just leg it out of the dungeon and formulate a new plan of attack. In tomb of horrors, my fighter never made it out, I know it was a trap that slew him but beyond that I have a mental block. The most memorable moment was our stupid mage jumping into the sphere of annihilation ;)
Otto's Irresistable Dance: No save and unable to make saves for d4+1 round (I think).
If anyone dares say "That's not a CR appropriate encounter!" I burn their character sheet followed by them.Lets have some nasty old school style adventures like MST and ToH back again! Lets see how your carefully crafted PC does.
EDIT: I nearly had a fit when I read on the boards about someone using excel to work out to hit and damge with various feats. That is soooo wrong!
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Otto's Irresistable Dance: No save and unable to make saves for d4+1 round (I think).
If anyone dares say "That's not a CR appropriate encounter!" I burn their character sheet followed by them.Lets have some nasty old school style adventures like MST and ToH back again! Lets see how your carefully crafted PC does.
EDIT: I...
Excel spreadsheets, electronic DM secretaries and all the gadgets. It all gets a bit standardized. But that's the "Spirit of the Age" to quote Hawkwind.
Loved Otto's Irresistable Dance. Always good for a laugh, providing it's not you doing the dancing. I was always a fan of Bigby's Crushing Blow.
Otto's Irresistable Dance: No save and unable to make saves for d4+1 round (I think).
If anyone dares say "That's not a CR appropriate encounter!" I burn their character sheet followed by them.Lets have some nasty old school style adventures like MST and ToH back again! Lets see how your carefully crafted PC does.
EDIT: I...
Excel spreadsheets, electronic DM secretaries and all the gadgets. It all gets a bit standardized. But that's the "Spirit of the Age" to quote Hawkwind.
Loved Otto's Irresistable Dance. Always good for a laugh, providing it's not you doing the dancing. I was always a fan of Bigby's Crushing Blow.
Hawkwind...Now there is a band :)
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Hawkwind...Now there is a band :)
Otto's Irresistable Dance: No save and unable to make saves for d4+1 round (I think).
If anyone dares say "That's not a CR appropriate encounter!" I burn their character sheet followed by them.Lets have some nasty old school style adventures like MST and ToH back again! Lets see how your carefully crafted PC does.
EDIT: I...
Excel spreadsheets, electronic DM secretaries and all the gadgets. It all gets a bit standardized. But that's the "Spirit of the Age" to quote Hawkwind.
Loved Otto's Irresistable Dance. Always good for a laugh, providing it's not you doing the dancing. I was always a fan of Bigby's Crushing Blow.
Oh yeah. Used to make some good atmospheric music for some of my games.
Sweet Jesus! My precious thread has degenerated into talk about Hawkwind! O, the humanity!
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Hello, all. For those of you who remember this from Dungeon #37 and Paizo's well done conversion in #138, I am the author of The Mud Sorcerer's Tomb. Having been out of the RPG world for about 18 years, it was only recently that I became aware of MST's popularity. While I have read what threads there are here at Paizo.com, I am still very curious to hear people's stories re: having run as GM or gone through the tomb as a player.
Any recollections would be very much appreciated! I'd also be happy to answer questions people might have about the module.
Getting back to the thread. I really would love to get hold of some of these old modules. A few years ago you could buy just about any old 1st 2nd Ed. AD&D module or Dungeon magazine from RPGNow. This was before I found Paizo, and I prefer to give my dollars to Paizo in tribute for them keeping 3.5ed alive with Pathfinder.
But I did buy a few of the modules as I've lost all my originals :(. Then suddenly Wizards stops people from buying any of the past modules from 3rd party vendors. I guess it was due to copyright issues. But to add insult to injury they're not selling them themselves. You can protect PDFs these days so why not sell these old modules and magazines in digital form.
I doubt most younger gamers would give them much time because they'd be too much work to convert to 4th Ed, but us older gamers would love to re-read them if for no more reason than nostalgia's sake.
You might have some leverage being a seasoned dungeon writer. Maybe you could ask them if they're going to do something positive with them, like SELL them digitally.
Sigh, I had such a misspent youth, but I am really bummed that I never got to play the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb.
But I did buy a few of the modules as I've lost all my originals :(. Then suddenly Wizards stops people from buying any of the past modules from 3rd party vendors. I guess it was due to copyright issues. But to add insult to injury they're not selling them themselves. You can protect PDFs these days so why not sell these old modules and magazines in digital form.
[threadjack]
AFAICT, WotC stopped selling electronic products due to piracy. (not that not selling the stuff online would stop it - quite the opposite. The music industry has learned that in Germany at least - now that music is available cheap and easy online, piracy has gone down a lot.)Another reason I´ve heard about that is that they did not want any competition to their new game (4e) by still selling older stuff. (not that the folks buying older stuff are for the most part not hugely interested in 4e anyways...) In the end, WotC selling or giving licence to sell older stuff just won´t happen anytime soon, probably not at all. I don´t know how the contracts TSR made back then for Dungeon adventures looked like, but I guess that the copyrights are retained by WotC now. So, no luck in publishing older stuff again, no matter in what form.[/threadjack]
Stefan
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[threadjack]
AFAICT, WotC stopped selling electronic products due to piracy. (not that not selling the stuff online would stop it - quite the opposite. The music industry has learned that in Germany at least - now that music is available cheap and easy online, piracy has gone down a lot.)Another reason I´ve heard about that is that they did not want any competition to their new game (4e) by still selling older stuff. (not that the folks buying older stuff are for the most part not hugely interested in 4e anyways...) In the end, WotC selling or giving licence to sell older stuff just won´t happen anytime soon, probably not at all. I don´t know how the contracts TSR made back then for Dungeon adventures looked like, but I guess that the copyrights are retained by WotC now. So, no luck in publishing older stuff again, no matter in what form.
[/threadjack]Stefan
That's very disappointing. But the statements you made above actually cojures up another. If Wizards really wanted to prevent competition for 4Ed, then why did they create the OGL license at all? With all the competitors producing stuff for 3.5, then they will to some degree lose market share even if 4ed continues to be popular. I applaud them for the OGL, but I'm not sure whether their decision making makes all that much economic sense.
Maybe they should run two lines parallel, by issuing 3.5 stuff alongside their 4ed stuff, and I believe there would be a definite market for the old 1-2ed material, at least while older players like myself remain alive to remember the good old days.
Also a note: I refuse to give copies of my proprietary downloaded material to others, and when asked I give them a firm NO. I have very strong views about piracy of other people's hard work - just because its easy to send a friend a copy - it's is still theft. Also in addition, by denying the revenue to those who put in the initial hard work of producing products, we do ourselves as a community few favors. When an RPG company goes out of business due to this, we all lose.
I wish there was a way round this. For example, perhaps we should have registration verification of out purchases with the suppliers so that we can download/read our own copies, but they won't work on other people's computers, and if we change our computers we can reregister the product with a personal server side password that verifies us. It's not a perfect solution but it goes some way to alleviating copyright violations.
Finally, printing PDFs generally ends up more expensive than buying products themselves, what with the price of inks etc. I printed out my core rule book and probably spent $80 on paper and ink. I shan't be doing that again.
@Marcus Aurelius
We had TPK. Lava slide, my PC was the only survivor because my mum wouldn't let me play that night!
I agree the 3.5 version is a wimp-out compared to the original. Now you have gamers saying how unfair it was, fall into a pit with spikes each poisoned three save or die saves please. Standard fair when I started. I'm not sure if people complain about the 3.5 save or be hurt a bit version or notSlay Living should be renamed to Bruise Living...
We old RPG nerds are hilarious and sound like Dana Carvey's grumpy old man character from SNL:
Kids these days with their saves for half damage! Why in my day if your character cut himself shaving he'd have to make a -8 save vs. wands or bleed to death! In fact, most of the time we'd just sit in a circle, staring into space in our unheated room lit only with sputtering candle ends, so hungry we'd eat the character sheets for our PCs killed by paper cuts, bee stings and day old ham sandwiches, listening to Hawkwind. And we liked it!
Now, anyone care to share their experiences in the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb and Sleepless?
Yea, sorry about that!
MST: Fantastic adventure really enjoyed running it and players had a blast. A perfect mix of bashing and thinking. Right from the crying walls the players knew this was going to be different. Encourages out of the box thinking. As a DM the liberal sprinkling of cursed magical items brought a smile to my face!
Sleepless: Never ran it but read it. Neat story line fancy selling your soul to four different beings.
Is there a chance of other MST being in the pipeline? What about you posting an expanded version of the background?
Yea, sorry about that!
Is there a chance of other MST being in the pipeline? What about you posting an expanded version of the background?
Heh, no need to apologize. I am thoroughly familiar with aging geek pathology, though I myself have been completely spared its ravages (ahem).
Second, MST and Sleepless both are the intellectual property of WotC. Without their go ahead I can't write a thing about them. This is what happens when you let people pay you for your writing.
I do, however, invite continued calls for my return to writing, or angry mobs banging on Paizo's doors.
I do, however, invite continued calls for my return to writing, or angry mobs banging on Paizo's doors.
Yeah, Paizo! Let this Shel guy write something for you. Better him than you, right? I mean, think of all the video games and television you'll miss out on if you have to write things yourself!
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Kids these days with their saves for half damage! Why in my day if your character cut himself shaving he'd have to make a -8 save vs. wands or bleed to death! In fact, most of the time we'd just sit in a circle, staring into space in our unheated room lit only with sputtering candle ends, so hungry we'd eat the character sheets for our PCs killed by paper cuts, bee stings and day old ham sandwiches, listening to Hawkwind. And we liked it!
Well you had it easy! When we were kids our GM would cut our PC's throats before each gaming session and expect us to resurrect ourselves prior to play, then he'd curse us all with a monstrous disease that did a 100pts per damage per segment (non of this poofy ability damage stuff you see now: real hard earned hit points!), and then wheel on Orcus and Demogorgon to keep us busy in between. Then finally he'd open his module and ask us happily that if we could all stop dying for a minute that he had a particularly great adventure lined up for us starting out with 50 rust monsters ready to ruin our precious items, and then... Oops this is sounding like a Monty Python skit ;)
Sorry Mike, couldn't resist that :) Oh and by the by, don't dis my favorite band. You know the one I promised NOT to mention again. LOL!
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The concept is basically the Windows approach. Before Microsoft produced Windows, Bill Gates was begging Steve Jobs to license the Macintosh OS to third-parties.
Also prior to that Microsoft in it's infancy was contracted to produce a disk operating system (DOS) for IBM machines. When they completed it, IBM didn't want it and MS went on to proprietize MS_DOS the forerunner of Windows. Gates took the idea of GUI(graphical user interfaces) from Xerox, who I think first used them on their copiers. It wasn't until Windows 3.1 that Windows began to dominate the market because it would run on any open box IBM XT architecture computer. So the PCs we have today are still based around this fundamental single processor PC concept. Which is a pity because transputer technology was in its embryonic stages which would allow any number of new CPUs to be added to boost computing power. Imagine if transputers had taken off sigh. Well the rise of Windows put paid to that. :(
Give the abrupt yanking of Paizo's license, I'm sure the 4th Ed. brand managers are livid about the decisions made by their predecessors regarding the OGL. The current licensing is, to my understanding, much more stringent and will likely be pulled when 5th Ed. arrives. IOW, at some future point 3PPs will still be able to produce 3.x material but not 4.x but might be able to produce 5.x.
Can't comment on that, I would hope Wizards would take a more enlightened view to things than Microsoft ever did. After all the better the variety of the games available the more players will come along to buy them, as well as D&D. Why try to annoy the fan base anyway. If I were Wizards I'd be producing sourcebooks with all the ideas for good roleplying i.e. story ideas etc. I think we have enough rules to cover most situations with combat, magic, skills and feats. I have bought many game products and converted them for use in D&D over the years, and like the quirkiness and different approaches taken by others outside of the big game publishers. All this adds to rather than takes away from any gameing experience. After all original D&D relied a lot on Lovecraft, Leiber, Moorcock and Tolkien for inspirations. In fact, Cthulhu, Nehwon, and Melnibonean Mythos were incuded in the first edition Deities and Demigods hardback. I guess they couldn't use Tolkien because that was absent.
Everyone's game is different and from what I've learned from Mike Shel and those who have run his adventures I really wish I could pick up a copy of that Dungeon magazine. It's a pity that the big game companies automatically own all rights to a product. In fairness, any writer of published adventures should receive a royalty, however minor every time his/her adventure is purchased, even if he/she cannot publish it independently him/herself.
Either way, "keeping OGL out there" was not a business decision by the 4th Ed. guys, and if they could get rid of it I'm sure they would in a heart beat.
Well I sure hope they don't.
@mike shel
I'm trying to keep this discussion on track because I'm still hoping more gamers will post their experiences of MST and Sleepless too. I hope Paizo do hire him.
@ Marcus Aurelius: Email me stevehoney@talktalk.net I have Hawkwind goodies for you!
Hmm back on topic now...
Echo sentiments above.
Mike was there ever more than one tomb?
Did you develop the Mud Sorcerers beyond what is in print?
Thinky dungeons are fantastic and tend to have that old school feel and MST is among the best. As a DM it fills me with that same fuzzy glow that I get when I think of ToH. However my players hate you!
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Mike was there ever more than one tomb?
Did you develop the Mud Sorcerers beyond what is in print?This is a thought. WotC may own the IP directly related to the published MST adventure, but they don't own what they didn't print.
A little tweaking of details and names could result in a nice 3PP AP. Certainly the core ideas are there in the backstory to develop into something epic and AP-suitable for future publishing, whether through Paizo or some other company.
R.
Great ideas Spacelard. They might run and get Mike Shel back in the game (Pardon the pun).
Mike was there ever more than one tomb?
Did you develop the Mud Sorcerers beyond what is in print?This is a thought. WotC may own the IP directly related to the published MST adventure, but they don't own what they didn't print.
A little tweaking of details and names could result in a nice 3PP AP. Certainly the core ideas are there in the backstory to develop into something epic and AP-suitable for future publishing, whether through Paizo or some other company.
R.
Hmmm...
The Dub Sorcerer's Tomb.|
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Yea, sorry about that!
Is there a chance of other MST being in the pipeline? What about you posting an expanded version of the background?
Heh, no need to apologize. I am thoroughly familiar with aging geek pathology, though I myself have been completely spared its ravages (ahem).
Second, MST and Sleepless both are the intellectual property of WotC. Without their go ahead I can't write a thing about them. This is what happens when you let people pay you for your writing.
I do, however, invite continued calls for my return to writing, or angry mobs banging on Paizo's doors.
@mike shel
Been wondering. Did you ever write anything for the early White Dwarf magazine (It was the UK equivalent of Dragon back in the early eighties)? Did you ever see the early editions before it went crap and solely Warhammer oriented (which, as a game, I cannot abide)?|
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Well actually, my whole group went through it with hardly any casualties.My last official bump of this thread...Sadly I never player Mud Sorceror's Tomb though I did play Tomb of Horrors, which if I am totally honest was ingenious but completely pointless. If anyone survived it being played fairly then I'd love to hear from them.
Which version?
1ed with all the save or die or the wussy 3.5 version with save and get hurt a bit?
Alright, alright, I did not anticipate such acclaim, so here is the story (digged up my copy for remembering - was some 15 years ago, if not more. Back when I was young and handsome :)).
I do not think this is important, but we played it through the S1-4 anthology at the time.
We did not know much about the module, except it was bad ass, and there was possibly a demilich at the end. We played it over a full gaming weekend at the country house of a friend. At night and possibly quite drunk (we were just officially adults).
Somehow, we found directly the correct entrance.
We found the clue directly, and I believe only one of us fell through any pittraps. (Not me anyways)
We did not go for the Green thing.
We wasted the gargoyle easily. gargoyles even IIRC.
We found the Gem
Some missing details in between.
we were at the Chapel of Evil, and did some experimentation on the altars. One of my pals was transformed into a girl. We laughed a lot.
After tinkering and taking some damage, I hit on the following plan :
1 Cast Invisible servant
2 cast Otiluke's something sphere over altar and servant
3 order servant to touch altar, but tsince the backlash was contained INSIDE the sphere flashing back to its source .... BOOOMMMMMM !
Some missing details again, but we did not fall for the false tomb.
I solved the trap puzzle through using a door we salvaged from earlier and a bottle of Sovereign Glue I had left from an earlier module.
oooh ... again I do not remeber the rest, except the Paladin got sucked in by the Demilich, and saved at the last moment
Anyways if anybody from my old gang is around here ... contact me !
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@Marcus Aurelius
We had TPK. Lava slide, my PC was the only survivor because my mum wouldn't let me play that night!
I agree the 3.5 version is a wimp-out compared to the original. Now you have gamers saying how unfair it was, fall into a pit with spikes each poisoned three save or die saves please. Standard fair when I started. I'm not sure if people complain about the 3.5 save or be hurt a bit version or notSlay Living should be renamed to Bruise Living...
Hmmm . right the lava thing. I remember now. Almost got us.
We were an even numbered group, and the DM told us we were ust so balanced perfectly when it happened. But the first one to move ...I remember some heated talk, and then I got away through dimension door ... Don't remember what the others did, except we had an agreement.
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@Marcus Aurelius
We had TPK. Lava slide, my PC was the only survivor because my mum wouldn't let me play that night!
I agree the 3.5 version is a wimp-out compared to the original. Now you have gamers saying how unfair it was, fall into a pit with spikes each poisoned three save or die saves please. Standard fair when I started. I'm not sure if people complain about the 3.5 save or be hurt a bit version or notSlay Living should be renamed to Bruise Living...
Hmmm . right the lava thing. I remember now. Almost got us.
We were an even numbered group, and the DM told us we were ust so balanced perfectly when it happened. But the first one to move ...I remember some heated talk, and then I got away through dimension door ... Don't remember what the others did, except we had an agreement.
It appears you were a rather more intelligent magic-user than our MU player was. Dumb as a box of rocks and to the PCs, as dangerous as one dropped on your head from a great height.
I refused to enter the Lava trap room because I was convinced it was an illusion from the start. Why the hell would a group of people be partying in that damn tomb? My decision to stay behind was followed by the other party members and we never experienced the lava pit, I knew I'd made the right choice by the look of irritation on our DM's face when we left the illusory folks to their fun and frolics.
Unfortunately there were only three of us left by then. We didn't fall for the Mummy as the demilich because it was just too easy to kill (well it wasn't actually *that* easy but I'm speaking relatively).
I think the altar may have killed my PC, or was it the misty doorway with the stones that changed color? Remember we didn't have a magic user to cast Otiluke's (I think it's Resilient) Sphere, so we were kind of stuck. Thief dead, MU dead, in a dungeon full of magic traps and ingenious devices of destruction. We were, though we didn't know it at the time,*!£%!!
Then we found out that the DM was buddies with the cleric's character who refused to aid or heal any of us without paying him an exorbitant fee, and was favoring him. He defeated the Demilich who was as I have said in another thread hamstrung beyond belief. Because he was still alive he got all the experience and treasure while the rest of the players were grudgingly rolling new characters. I left that game.
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It appears you were a rather more intelligent magic-user than our MU player was. Dumb as a box of rocks and to the PCs, as dangerous as one dropped on your head from a great height.
We had a VERY GOOD mood setting GM. He was pretty inventive, and most of his home-made adventures were already quite vicious. So we already had some good training.
I remember an adventure from him, where we had plenty of vague clues (smells, sounds, ...) of what was going on.
DM : you hear a roar !
Us: looks like the Chimera we killed earlier ?
DM : Right ! She is back, except only now, it is UNDEAD as well ... and meaner !
Us : Nooooo
The catch was everything we imagined became real thanks to some crazy wish stuff...
Got as bad as us summoning Geryon before we caught the hint.
Us : seems like Geryon would do this.
DM : What PUNY MORTAL DARED SUMMON ME ! from my hot vacation spot in (whatever was fancy at the time for rich people)
Let me answer several posts in one:
The only published writing I did are the two previously mentioned modules mentioned found in early 90s Dungeon. I had actually written a third, which editor Barbara Young had sent back to me for revisions, but I was never able to revise it as the demands of graduate school kicked in big time (and have since lost the document). I then fell away from any kind of RPG as my training and professional career took up most of my time. It was only a few weeks back, out of curiosity that I did the web search and found MST had been so popular. Until then I had no idea. I certainly had ideas for sequel tombs (especially for Piyyat, the fellow mud sorcerer who had double-crossed Tzolo), but never got around to writing them, in part because I had no inkling that MST would be a success.
If you want to play MST and never got a chance, you can purchase Paizo's very well done conversion to 3.5 in Dungeon #138, which is available from Paizo here. Paizo had actually tried to get hold of me back then to see if I would be interested in working on the conversion, but Mike Shel is a pen name and they never found me (a Google search of MST actually led me to Paizo and James Jacobs' post on this messageboard).
WotC owns MST lock, stock & barrel. That includes the specific concepts, names, history of the Jezulein, etc. Unless they were interested and I were to learn the 4th edition system (with the purchase of $4.3M in manuals), there is no way I could write something using these ideas, even if I cold prove I had written them before.
Since discovering this website I have been very impressed with Paizo and its products. The thought and planning that goes into their stuff is really amazing, and I'm also blown away by the improvement in artwork since the early 90s. I'm glad to see gamers are supporting their hard work.
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Let me answer several posts in one:
The only published writing I did are the two previously mentioned modules mentioned found in early 90s Dungeon. I had actually written a third, which editor Barbara Young had sent back to me for revisions, but I was never able to revise it as the demands of graduate school kicked in big time (and have since lost the document). I then fell away from any kind of RPG as my training and professional career took up most of my time. It was only a few weeks back, out of curiosity that I did the web search and found MST had been so popular. Until then I had no idea. I certainly had ideas for sequel tombs (especially for Piyyat, the fellow mud sorcerer who had double-crossed Tzolo), but never got around to writing them, in part because I had no inkling that MST would be a success.
If you want to play MST and never got a chance, you can purchase Paizo's very well done conversion to 3.5 in Dungeon #138, which is available from Paizo here. Paizo had actually tried to get hold of me back then to see if I would be interested in working on the conversion, but Mike Shel is a pen name and they never found me (a Google search of MST actually led me to Paizo and James Jacobs' post on this messageboard).
WotC owns MST lock, stock & barrel. That includes the specific concepts, names, history of the Jezulein, etc. Unless they were interested and I were to learn the 4th edition system (with the purchase of $4.3M in manuals), there is no way I could write something using these ideas, even if I cold prove I had written them before.
Since discovering this website I have been very impressed with Paizo and its products. The thought and planning that goes into their stuff is really amazing, and I'm also blown away by the improvement in artwork since the early 90s. I'm glad to see gamers are supporting their hard work.
So why not start writing some new material for Pathfinder. It doesn't have to be linked with the original MST millieu (to get round copyright issues), and being that you were quite young when you penned these adventures proves that you have the talent we need as gamers (who very often just don't have the time to write our own offerings for our PCs). That was one of the reasons I used FR for so long. Now that everything has changed in FR I have no inclination to continue using it. Besides Copyright law only covers specific stuff i.e. names, places, settings. No-one can copyright ideas, and WotC know that d**n well. You can reuse old ideas providing they are different enough not to describe the same thing you published.
I will certainly search out the 3.5 version of this adventure on Paizo. Many regards Mike.
Hoo boy, do i recall the MST.
Backstory: 1991-92. Me and my roleplaying group all graduated from high school, and over the course of the summer wound our game down to some extent, figuring we could pick up again during the summers between college years. The next summer we were all home again, but several of us were pretty much aware this would be our last summer in our home town. Plus, what with summer jobs and all, we didn't have as much time for playing D&D as we used to. So we agreed to wrap up the two campaigns we had (the 'main' campaign and the backup one we played one-shots with when people couldn't make a session). And the DM said 'Great,I have the perfect adventure for this. Oh, and everyone... you'll be using both your characters from both campaigns in one adventure. [ominous pause] You'll need them.'
Then we spent the summer dying horribly.
I have to admit, a lot of adventure is fuzzy (as 20 years will do to you) so I can't give super detailed memories here, but I remember a few of the random details. (Especially the ones that took party members out of the running.)
-the group druid getting zapped by the magic snake trap that caused her to fall asleep for a year and a day or something. Since we didn't have the means to wake her up on us, (Did remove curse not work? I can't recall why we didn't, otherwise.) it was essentially the same as a kill. I don't think teleporting her out was an option, so we just... left her there to be picked up on the way out.
-my ranger getting hit with one of the teleport traps that got you stuck in a small cell. Nobody else followed. Somehow that escalated into him getting out of the cell and winding up in single combat with an annis in a nearby room. Amazingly, he managed to take her down on his own (albeit with single digit hit points at the end). It was very much a crowning moment of awesome for me. After that he just sat down and waited to see if the rest of the group would find him sooner or later, since he knew he'd die if he got breathed at heavy by anything else. Eventually they did.
-the group thief, if I recall, died in combat with the necrophidius. Entranced by the dance of death and then poisoned. Since at that point we still had the group cleric, he got raised from the dead, but the character declared himself so traumatized by the experience that he intended to retire from dungeon crawling after finishing the tomb and stick to the much safer life of a cat burglar.
-It was a pretty minor encounter, but it messed up my other character the most, so it's still a standout to me. There was a ghost at some point, and it chose to focus its attacks on my bard. Who was fairly vain about his looks, so when he ended the fight 60 years older than when he started, he was NOT happy. Also the aging effects left him pretty much useless for combats for the rest of the adventure.
-Remember how I said 'at that point we still had the group cleric'? Yeah, things were going smoothly while she was still around. Then we encountered the... spellcaster? Evil cleric? Something like that. Who had a talisman of ultimate darkness. One failed saving throw later and the cleric was being munched on by demons on some random plane of the abyss and we suddenly realized we were screwed for healing.
-And yet, amazingly, we managed to survive with no more losses using potions and such to the end of the tomb. When, I think, we .. Tzolo's guardian? Some nasty critter that had the ability to petrify and telekinesis. Which we found the hard way can be a nasty combo when the other ranger in the group was turned into stone and then used as a missile to crush the group mage. The ranger broke into a million little pieces, the mage got knocked to negative hit points and then... fell into an acid pit of some kind, I think? Anyway, he died too. At the end of the fight, we were completely without spellcasters (aside from my grumpy old man bard), and so all the hopes we'd had of reversing the damage that had been done to the party along the way were left unfulfilled.
That was, I think, the last fight. We eventually found the stoneship and piloted our way out of there, gathering what dead/incapacitated members we could. I take some small pride in being the only player to have kept both of my characters alive through the whole adventure- everyone else had at least one death (or sleepy snakebite). But at the end of it, even with the smashed rangers player trying to figure out if mending + stone to flesh would make things all better, there wasn't a single player unhappy with the experience.
So, kudos to you. I can't think of a better way for my group to have gone out in style.
Hoo boy, do i recall the MST.
But at the end of it, even with the smashed rangers player trying to figure out if mending + stone to flesh would make things all better, there wasn't a single player unhappy with the experience. So, kudos to you. I can't think of a better way for my group to have gone out in style.
Danke, DankeSean. Exactly what I've been asking for and really encouraging to get back in the biz. What nicer thing could a player say than that? Again, thank you.
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I've got some in-play feedback for you Mike.
My Tuesday night gamers have made it half way through MST and have done rather well. Pathfinder characters: 2 wizards, 12th level. 1 sorcerer, 12th level. An apprentice wizard, 8th, and a henchman ranger, 8th.
They've played even better than I expected, but honestly, these guys are pretty game savvy.
Usually I DM, but occasionally I take a break and someone else runs a game. So, during one of my times out of the DM seat, my friend ran the 3.5 version of MST. My group is a little smaller than usual (at that time, there were only 3 players total, so 2 PCs), so our characters were boosted a bit above the recommended level. My character was a necromancer/cleric of sorts while the other player had a warlock, and we were accompanied by my character's various undead minions. While many of my spells proved to be useless against the tombs guardians, a combination of the warlock's blasting, my gray render zombies' muscle, various utility spells, and sheer luck led us to the end of the tomb without either of our characters dying (though we came close numerous times).
And so, here we were alive and well at the end, when the warlock decides to...
All in all, MST was a great time.
Hello, all. For those of you who remember this from Dungeon #37 and Paizo's well done conversion in #138, I am the author of The Mud Sorcerer's Tomb. Having been out of the RPG world for about 18 years, it was only recently that I became aware of MST's popularity. While I have read what threads there are here at Paizo.com, I am still very curious to hear people's stories re: having run as GM or gone through the tomb as a player.
Any recollections would be very much appreciated! I'd also be happy to answer questions people might have about the module.
1994, on the USS Defender, MCM-2, I gave a copy of my dungeon mag to my DM, Cary Kazmaier, possibly the best undeveloped raw-talent DM I've ever played with. And he ordered a 6 issue subscription, and then had us play in the North end of the FR.
The Jezulian cult (MST fame, possibly a spelling error) had collapsed with the Nethereese era, and a pair of competing wizards were trying to collect the remainder of the artifacts buried under the soil of ages past.
We had about seven of us, five players and two NPC's in 2nd edition. And we're doing our level best to get through this 'thinking man's dungeon crawl'.
I lost an arm to a wall-face, causing our cleric to be irritated (when you don't worship Helm, you get the entire sermon with the spell, regeneration, along with the berating of our Avenger who was just irritated that I didn't fully concentrate on the task at hand.
The rest of the party waited around for this spell to take effect, as for some reason, our cleric had the spell which would make my arm grow back.
So we waited an hour. And I had all ten fingers again.
Again we set off. My 12th level thief stayed alive up until this point because he was the first one to beat a hasty retreat once the party tanks were bloody as hell.
Unfortunately, another party of NPC's came into the dungeon, after watching us go in, they thought we would be dead possibly, and have a large section of the traps previously dealt with.
In the end, is was two TPK's, as once our party succumbed to their spells, Cary was polite enough to give us the NPC character sheets (fresh green and white, for those that remember) so we could continue to delve.
And we got hit by lava the second time.
Damn.
I've got some in-play feedback for you Mike.
My Tuesday night gamers have made it half way through MST and have done rather well. Pathfinder characters: 2 wizards, 12th level. 1 sorcerer, 12th level. An apprentice wizard, 8th, and a henchman ranger, 8th.
** spoiler omitted **
They've played even better than I expected, but honestly, these guys are pretty game savvy.
Not a scratch on them? Wow, pretty impressive. Are they enjoying themselves? What's the general response so far, especially since they seem to be skating through?
Not a scratch on them? Wow, pretty impressive. Are they enjoying themselves? What's the general response so far, especially since they seem to be skating through?I've got some in-play feedback for you Mike.
My Tuesday night gamers have made it half way through MST and have done rather well. Pathfinder characters: 2 wizards, 12th level. 1 sorcerer, 12th level. An apprentice wizard, 8th, and a henchman ranger, 8th.
** spoiler omitted **
They've played even better than I expected, but honestly, these guys are pretty game savvy.
Sir, if I may...
Mike, we the forum have had a nerve that was definitely hit since your breakout two adventures. Lots of people have spoken up on here about their old game experiences.
I would say that there's a definite 'desire' for us devious DM's out there, and crafty players...we want more of what is in your head.
There aren't too many module writers from the old Dungeon days that come to mind. Willie Walsh, yourself...the guy that did Ex Libris (is that Willie?)...I would ask the others to offer more names.
But you're the guy that really jogged my head with the 'how did you fare in dungeon X of mine?' that really made me sit back and almost toke on the Prince and offer up fondly remembered moments amid sweating gamers on a foreign dock (We were in Bermuda and instead of checking out the bars or women, we played your module-we figured it would be easier to score a good evening).
Sir, if I may...
Mike, we the forum have had a nerve that was definitely hit since your breakout two adventures. Lots of people have spoken up on here about their old game experiences.
I would say that there's a definite 'desire' for us devious DM's out there, and crafty players...we want more of what is in your head.
There aren't too many module writers from the old Dungeon days that come to mind. Willie Walsh, yourself...the guy that did Ex Libris (is that Willie?)...I would ask the others to offer more names.
But you're the guy that really jogged my head with the 'how did you fare in dungeon X of mine?' that really made me sit back and almost toke on the Prince and offer up fondly remembered moments amid sweating gamers on a foreign dock (We were in Bermuda and instead of checking out the bars or women, we played your module-we figured it would be easier to score a good evening).
Awww, c'mon, don't just leave it hanging there! I need to hear details of this Bermuda romp through MST.
As for wanting more of what is in my head, well, I have trouble deciding which of the 13 wise-ass comments that generated to share here.
Unfortunately, another party of NPC's came into the dungeon, after watching us go in, they thought we would be dead possibly, and have a large section of the traps previously...
Beercifer:
Genius that I am, I just realized that you had posted this earlier and asking for details of your Bermuda romp was superfluous.
Question: your DM had a party of NPCs show up in the tomb to deal with in addition to the tomb itself? Yeesh! Not challenging enough for you? Of course, they shouldn't have been able to enter the tomb after the party did--the entrance should be closed for one year after the initial entry! How dare a DM alter my carefully crafted crawl!
There aren't too many module writers from the old Dungeon days that come to mind. Willie Walsh, yourself...the guy that did Ex Libris (is that Willie?)...I would ask the others to offer more names.
ted james thomas zuvich. :-)
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There aren't too many module writers from the old Dungeon days that come to mind. Willie Walsh, yourself...the guy that did Ex Libris (is that Willie?)...I would ask the others to offer more names.ted james thomas zuvich. :-)
Ex libris was really GREAT !
Another of my best memories of gaming.
Mmmm gotta find a reason to include it in my runelords game.
Ex Libris (in Dungeon issue #29) was written by Randy Maxwell, who also wrote White Death (in issue #6), The Ghostship Gambit (#9), Of Nests and Nations (#13), Masqueraider (#14), House of Cards (#19), Pride of the Sky (#20), Tomb it May Concern (#22), The Vineyard Vales (#23), Of Kings Unknown (#25), ...And a Dozen Eggs (#30), Isle of the Abbey (#34), Jacob's Well (#43), Raiders of the Chanth (#44), Goblin Fever (#46), and Shards of the Day (#60). Maxwell also wrote an article in Dragon magazine #191 called Unearthed Mundana!
Aaahhh Jacob's Well ...
An all time favourite. Pulled it at least three times on my players !
You did? I envy you. I never got around to running that one, for a couple of reasons. One neat thing about Jacob's Well is that it's no less appropriate for evil PCs than good ones. Perhaps more so.
But since the whole reason Randy Maxwell came up was because of the subject of "devious DMs," how about that Isle of the Abbey?
The darnedest thing for me is that I ran it with a party that had no thief PC, so the party couldn't open it, so they just delivered the safe to their employer, never the wiser. The absence of a thief PC was felt... even though, unbeknownst to the party, they were actually better off for it!
MST is one of my FAVORITE and most enjoyable adventures I have ever read. It is one of the reasons I got into doing RPG games and publishing.
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Not a scratch on them? Wow, pretty impressive. Are they enjoying themselves? What's the general response so far, especially since they seem to be skating through?I've got some in-play feedback for you Mike.
My Tuesday night gamers have made it half way through MST and have done rather well. Pathfinder characters: 2 wizards, 12th level. 1 sorcerer, 12th level. An apprentice wizard, 8th, and a henchman ranger, 8th.
** spoiler omitted **
They've played even better than I expected, but honestly, these guys are pretty game savvy.
My players have a couple reactions: good and bad. The good: they like the interesting monsters, traps and puzzles. The bad: they found some of the puzzles too simplistic (e.g. pressing the letters on the belly of the elephant statue was jeered at as too simplistic). They also managed to avoid the illusionary/silenced pit trap (I like the trap... well done) because by chance the two characters who fell into it were an air genasi (can levitate at will) and a celestial sorcerer (SU: angelic wings), so they took the falling damage (no big deal) and flew out of the pit. Vs. the mud golems, they kept thier distance by flying or levitating or "expeditious retreat" to run away. They dropped a wall of iron on top of one - trapping him as well. The 2nd one they blasted with "orb of force" a Spell Compendium spell that one of them prepared multiple times. Otherwise, they were almost helpless to deal with the magic resistant golems. It took them a while to get out of there. The encounter with the sleeping Tzila was disappointing since she was easily defeated by the spell-readying arcanists. As soon as she even twitched, they blasted her and she couldn't even get a word out. The Symbol of Pain amazingly did little to slow them down since they are wizards and by sheer luck those who were affected made their fortitude saves! Go figure. Now they have just entered the boat room! That's where we left off last night.