Hi there! Second version ready to post and critique, to fire away!! It’s a work in progress and this is the second draft, so all criticisms are welcome.
Just for clarification - I'll always re-post my design philosophy and then follow with the adjustments and such, then explain and add notations below that.
Design Philosophy going in:
1) Barbarians are all about their rage ability – it defines them and carries them though. This must become even MORE significant itself (vs. rage powers).
2) PF dropped the ball on the Barbarian upgrades. It got nerfed HARD after Beta, and it’s reeling in recovery. I’m going to attempt to put it back where it *should* have been and/or to scale with the other melee classes.
3) Barbarian key identification qualities are: tough/durable, outrageous strength and damage dealing capacity, and fast reactions – in that order.
4) More can be added to make the class “fun” vs. worrisome. Bonus HP will disappear. Yes, this is part of the long-standing barbarian thing, but as rage gets better and more hp creep in, more damage tends to be taken and the barbarian will get hosed when coming out of his rage. {by hosed I mean killed}. It’s, quite frankly, NOT fun to have that sort of worry with a key and defining class feature in play. There are ways to fix it, and I will – no more sacred cow.
5) Speaking of sacred cows – say good bye to the idea of a barbarian with a sixth sense for danger. It’s an old artifact and really does nothing to highlight features of the class and what it’s capable of, so, “Good bye, Trap Sense – you’ll not be missed!”
I’ll be messing around w/rage powers too, but that’ll be a different post after this first one, or maybe a different thread. I agree with the idea of why the rage points disappeared – to keep things simple, but in the drive for simplicity, rage powers got screwed hard. So … I’ll just do a few things to try and add utility to them, completely do away with others entirely (given the boosts to the class structure proper from this), and the like as I go.
Without further ado, here’s my second attempt to play with things and fine-tune the barbarian to bring it back to where it should have been from the outset in the upgrade. I’m just going to present it with no frills or formatting, because it’s hard to do that stuff for me on a web-board. I’m not savvy enough for it, so I’m side-stepping it in a more direct format.
Hit Die: d12
BAB: Full
Saves: Fort save is the only Good progression
Skill List: Unchanged
Skill Points: Unchanged
Level Progression
1 = Rage, Fast Movement: +10’
2 = Rage Power, Uncanny Dodge
3 = Mettle
4 = Rage Power, Unphaseable
5 = Improved Rage; Improved Uncanny Dodge
6 = Rage Power, Indefatigueable Stamina
7 = DR 1/--
8 = Rage Power, Preternatural Reflexes
9 = Fast Recovery {could use a new name}, Fast Movement: +20’
10 = DR 2/-- , Rage Power, Great Rage
11 = Evasion
12 = Rage Power, Inexhaustible Endurance
13 = DR 3/--
14 = Indomitable Will; Rage Power
15 = Mighty Rage
16 = DR 4/-- , Rage Power
17 = Tireless Rage
18 = Rage Power; Fast Movement: +30’
19 = DR 5/-- , Fueled by Fury
20 = Supreme Rage; Rage Power
Explanation of Changes (that need explaining – some are just feats)
Rage: Rage is a +2 bonus to str, and a +1 to Will and Fort saves. No more con bonus, or bonus HP’s for entering a rage. Instead, barbarians gain DR X/-- where X = the ability increase of the rage type granted. So for Rage, it’s DR 2, etc. In addition, this DR is stackable with similar DR of any kind present on the barbarian (like it’s class-based DR/-- that is always on).
--Revision #1: Major change here as the power curve is something to be more evenly distributed across 5 degrees of rage. The above statistics are the flat increase to the rage for each of the step progressions here. Most of the other rage progressions will add a little something onto the above framework, but the above framework is a constant that results in a +10 to Str gain. It’s pretty fair, even if it takes a *small* bit of fluff away in the lower levels, there is a more consistent, uniform, and fair gain in abilities moving forward with each rage type. I think this also provides a nice effect of getting more than just the static stat gains … each level actually unlocks some newer and more powerful abilities that accompany the rage whole-sale. It’s nice, I think.
Rage Damage: This is a new bonus just added to all melee damage a barbarian inflicts while in his rage state. It’s not huge and averages about a +3 boost/die, BUT this is something to help the barbarian reclaim position as damage dealer extreme – which they should be. It’s a way to boost damage (and damage only) in a semi-reliable way.
--Revision #1: It’s something that gets added on pretty high up in the rage-progression (ie: only the most powerful barbarians of single-class will benefit most). This is a change to delay the power and provide a better balance vs. the first version. It’s also restricted to the upper levels where fighters start to out-shine the barbarians in that regard, so it’s a way to address that.
Fast Movement: This increases 2 times in progression in order to let a barbarian take advantage of speed and maneuverability a bit more than they can at present. It’s not on the level of a monk, but it’s still significant.
Mettle: works like the Hex-Blade ability. It is evasion for Fort and Will save effects.
--Revision #1: This is a new idea suggested by another poster and I think it really does fit will for the “tough” motif I’m striving to achieve with them. It would make the Barbarian class into one with a pretty unique save feature (especially w/Evasion later in levels) of being the only class w/all saves capable of avoiding effects of spells entirely. That, in itself, is significant progress towards “tough” and as such, I’ve dropped the added feats from the first version of Lightning Reflexes and the Improved version. There are other things in play that are very effective without putting in feats as well.
Unphaseable: Immunity to non-lethal damage and stun effects while raging. {I’ve finally settled on a name for this ability! Yea!!!}The idea here is that they’re so amped up so as to fully ignore anything less than truly life-threatening effects, or crippling effects (ie: strike blind, etc). It’s an “only in rage” thing, but it’s a guaranteed thing vs. “rage power” as a way to enhance reliably the rage feature of the barbarian overall. This does NOT grant them any protection from non-lethal damage from environmental effects or conditions, etc.
--Revision #1: One other note: subdual can still be recorded as normal, however, and if, when the character ends the rage the subdual/non-lethal total is more than his current HP total, he will come out of his rage and fall immediately unconscious. In this respect, it is more of a delay-effect for that. Immunity to stunning effects, however, is complete and non-delayed.
Improved Rage: Increase Str boost to +4, and save bonus to +2. DR increases to 4/--. In addition, at this point, when in a rage, the barbarian will gain Fast Healing: 1 for the duration of his rage-state.
--Revision #1: ok, taken from another poster’s suggestion of having fast healing of 0 (wtf would that even mean??), but the idea of lessening or marginalizing the ability when first gained is what I really took away from it. I think it works, so thanks!
Fast Healing: this is added as a feature while raging to the upper tier rage types and improves with each in order to give the barbarian additional “staying power” inside combat. It is a neat effect and functions well with this concept, IMO. Again, this is NOT relegated to rage power in favor of making it a guaranteed effect of the rage in progression and power vs. a *maybe* option of rage power.
Indefatigueable Stamina: while in a rage state, a barbarian becomes fully immune to any fatigue-based effects or states.
--Revision #1: Another idea suggested by a poster, and I really like it. It is more general than spell-specific immunities, and fitting in theme. Overall, this is just a much cleaner mechanic – thanks!
Preternatural Reflexes: in a rage state (ONLY) they gain the same bonus to Fort and Will saves added to their Ref saves as well. Again – guaranteed to increase the power and position of the rage vs. “rage power” of some sort.
--Revision #1: nothing new here except placement in progression. I put it ahead of “Evasion” in progression to grant a bonus on the save first, and then progress in upper levels towards the improved benefit of ignoring effects entirely (thus making it the one class in the game that can “evade” all save effects).
Fast Recovery: This is there to act as a mid-way ability to the Tireless Rage feature. Currently, when in rage you have to be out of it for 2 rounds for every 1 round you used it. This speeds up fatigue recovery in general to about ½ that, so it turns out to be 1:1 in recovery instead of 2:1 recovery time before being able to rage again.
--Revision #1: Still looking for a better name for this … any help?
Great Rage: Increase Str bonus to +6 and a +3 bonus on all saves (now w/Preternatural Reflexes unlocked). The DR of 2 gained at this level that is “always on” for a barbarian is stackable to the bonus 6 granted from a rage of this level, so while raging the barbarian actually gets DR 8/-. Fast Healing also increases to 2, and there is +1d6 “rage damage” added to any damage he inflicts. This is NOT added to base damage or multiplied on a critical hit.
--Revision #1: I added some clear verbage about the limitation of the damage die, and have delayed it’s progression significantly. You will not get any bonus damage die until 10 full levels in-class have been taken. I also
Inexhaustible Endurance: The barbarian becomes immune to the effects of exhaustion from any source while in his rage state.
--Revision #1: Same idea suggested by the same poster, only I’ve staggered out the “fatigue” and “exhausted” conditions to different levels rather than the different spells. Still a very clean mechanic and excellent idea!
Mighty Rage: this now grants a +8 to str and a +4 to saves. It also grants a DR of 8, but adds to the existing DR of 3 for a total DR of 11/-- when raging. Fast Healing improves to 5, and the rage damage increases to +2d6.
Fueled by Fury: When raging the barbarian gains immunity to Ability Damage and Drains. This is just one more way to emphasize the degree of toughness that accompanies the rage. It’s at 19th level, so it should have a pretty potent potential. Ability damage and drains don’t come up that often, so it’s kind of marginal, BUT it’s also limited to only in rage as a guaranteed thing (again vs. rage power limitations) for emphasis on the innate power of the rage itself by that level.
--Revision #1: this is to clarify the thought process here. Think of almost comic-book HULK for inspiration. “The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets!” Of course it’s not comics, and the mechanic is FAR from granting additional strength, but you get the point. So … drains and what have you, just can’t cut it on “taking the fury” out of a barbarian anymore – they’re beyond that and sustained by their insane level of rage and fury.
Supreme Rage: There are now 5 tiers in the rage progression for added emphasis on the importance of the ability, and a smoother/lesser progression in stats, etc. Str bonus is now a +10 with a +5 to all saves. Fast Healing ups to 10, and the rage damage goes up to +3d6. Final DR here is 15/-- {with an option of using more rage powers to increase that amount if desired by individual PC’s}
Right, so – there it is. Version 2.0! Thoughts? Comments and Criticisms?
Please post away and help me refine this little project of mine.
Thanks,
-The Speaker in Dreams
As a final note: I also intend to adjust Fighters a bit as well, but in a different manner entirely. That'll get it's own post soon ... so the fighter *I* have in mind is slightly better off than the PF one, and more able to compete against this rebuild {and both are better able to compete against all the other classes for it}
I haven't digested the whole thing yet, but I'm really liking the idea of getting rid of the rage con bonus. I never liked the idea of a character who takes huge amounts of damage, then turns to the cleric and says, "clean up the mess".
My biggest worry when people start redesigning the barbarian is what happens when you give a level or two of the class to creatures with racial hit dice. Seems like this version of the class scales nicely from the lower levels up.
Great job!
Hmmm, I'm wondering if all of these new abilities, PLUS a rage power ever level is a bit much? Looking at all of the things they have at 10th level seems to be a few levels above the curve.
How about lifting the melee only restriction on Rage Damage? I like the idea of a barbarian freaking out while throwing weapons, or even using a composite bow.
I haven't digested the whole thing yet, but I'm really liking the idea of getting rid of the rage con bonus. I never liked the idea of a character who takes huge amounts of damage, then turns to the cleric and says, "clean up the mess".
My biggest worry when people start redesigning the barbarian is what happens when you give a level or two of the class to creatures with racial hit dice. Seems like this version of the class scales nicely from the lower levels up.
Great job!
Hmmm, I'm wondering if all of these new abilities, PLUS a rage power ever level is a bit much? Looking at all of the things they have at 10th level seems to be a few levels above the curve.
How about lifting the melee only restriction on Rage Damage? I like the idea of a barbarian freaking out while throwing weapons, or even using a composite bow.
I'm thinking that all the stuff + the rage powers at every level *might* be a bit much, especially with my intention of given the powers some "umpf" down the line ... maybe reduce the rage powers a bit, then?
Inherently, though, if looking at existing rage powers - they're far too limited and restricted (for the most part) to really contribute meaningfully to his "power" in any real way. I *am* going to adjust them some, but still ... they're kind of on the minor side (I'd rate 'em at about 1/2 a feat's value to maybe about 1/3 or a feat's value myself - since the changes from Beta.)
If reducing the rage powers, though - my thing has been - to what? At what levels do they factor in now?
Melee and rage kind of go hand in hand. I mean, they can toss ranged weapons like spears if they have 'em, but from what I've read they're melee-based. Now, IMO, spears and anything 'thrown' by a rager should absolutely get the rage damage, but not a crossbow or bow of any kind - it doesn't fit the motif/existing expectations. That said, it *could* be one more sacred cow to offer up for sacrifice and be done with ... thing is, it's strange conceptually.
I liked it. But the DR, fast healing and extra damage is to much. I would decrease each by half.
DR 15/- is outrageous. Really is, I know, I've seen it. Fast healing is cool, but on TOP of the DR is too much.
The damage being like sneak attack is not cool in my opnion. Barbarian's damage has nothing to do with precision, so, it doesn't make sense to me (expecially the part of it not being multiplied)
A good thing for damage would be increase by 1 step the barbarian's power attack. It would put him above all, but not outrageously so.
I liked it. But the DR, fast healing and extra damage is to much. I would decrease each by half.
DR 15/- is outrageous. Really is, I know, I've seen it. Fast healing is cool, but on TOP of the DR is too much.
The damage being like sneak attack is not cool in my opnion. Barbarian's damage has nothing to do with precision, so, it doesn't make sense to me (expecially the part of it not being multiplied)
A good thing for damage would be increase by 1 step the barbarian's power attack. It would put him above all, but not outrageously so.
Hmm ... just been reading from quite a few (and looking at DPR values of high level melee-types) and they're WELL beyond 15 ... I can see potential problems in the layering, though - that I've questioned myself, too. Certainly something to consider would be to lessen the Fast Healing again. I'm less inclined to drop the DR, though, especially with it primarily taking the function of "bonus hp" from the Con boost that I'm eliminating.
It's not precision damage - it's just "rage damage" there's no limit in what it can target or be applied to, only that it doesn't add to crit figures. EVERY HIT barbarian make with it - it adds the rage damage. It's not sneak-attack at all ... {other than the die-type and simple +Xd6 formula to calculate it).
Hmm ... breaking Power Attack conventional limits is interesting, and fitting, IMO. It think something like that, though, would probably serve best as a rage-power, though. Maybe double the penalty from -4 max to -8 max w/the same PF adjustments otherwise? Good idea, though!
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Speaker, I've gone over a lot of this ground with my home conversion of the barbarian. You've got a different design philosophy than I do, but if you're interested in some of the ways I re-envisioned some rage powers, I have posted my revised barbarian class doc to google docs:
Basically I found a few key issues I wanted to deal with, and tweaked a number of rage powers to deal with them. You're on track to re-concept the class itself quite a bit with rage powers as a secondary concern, but maybe you'll find something in here helpful.
To address some of your specific concerns with the class...
1.) fatigue/exhaustion potentially neutering the entire class.
Fix: modified "roused anger" to grant immunity to the effects of fatigue, and later exhaustion, but at the price of using up more rounds of rage.
2.) not being an effectively scaling damage dealer compared to other classes.
Fix: added a power-attack boosting rage power. Added a rage power that allows Bbn to be treated as 1 size larger for various effects including wielding bigger weapons (which I'm surprised wasn't core, given Paizo's iconic barbarian) . Modified "Powerful Blow" to work 1/round, and applying to each attack in a cleave/greatCleave/whirlwind attack.
3.) rage powers are uneven in power.
Fix:This is where the heart of my revision is... modifying rage powers to better fit with what I want a raging barbarian to be capable of.
Here's my methodology:
Problem 1: solve the "tireless rage" loophole where 1/rage powers can suddenly become 1/round at level 17.
Solution: make most of the powers usable 1/round, reduce strength of affected rage powers as needed.
Problem 2: solve the barbarian's "instant-death when knocked unconscious" problem
Solution: losing CON from ending rage can't kill you. Knocks you to (-CON)+1 instead and you are dying. Can stabilize or be healed normally.
Problem 3: many weak rage powers, some redundant, balance of powers varies widely.
Solution: merge some redundant powers. add some new powers to fill in some gaps. Try to balance and scale powers appropriately.
Problem 4: Need a way to obtain additional rage powers.
Solution: Whenever you take "Extra Rage" to gain more rounds of rage, you also can select a new rage power for which you qualify.
Again, best of luck with your project.
-eric
raidou: thanks for sharing! Neat tweaks on the rage powers, and many mimic some of what I intend to do with them.
Your point #3 in that approach was actually point #1 in my own re-tooling of rage powers! lol! Great minds and all - eh?
#2 looks like a good idea for a new rage power in general but I don't think it goes too far to address the problem. Fantastic option for a rage power, though, if you want to amp that up even more. #1 I prefer to make inherent to class design itself vs. a rage power. However, for not re-designing the class, I must applaud that particular tweak to that power. It's a great idea, and I think you nailed it within both the rage power structure AND point #3 of your design goals. Well done with it!
That methodology, generally, is a good idea to keep in mind, so thanks for that as well.
I'm about to post up a new version soon, so by all means take a look at that one and give me some thoughts there, too.
One other thing for DPS, perhaps if the class got a large boost of damage only when say charging or moving then hitting? One issue I thought was a problem is the balancing the full attack vs the single strike.
I'm not so sure on that as, essentially, every melee type needs to balance this on their own in choosing how/when/where to apply their attacks.
That said, a rage power could likely do exactly that - maybe add a d6 for damage when striking each time it's taken (or maybe scale w/a d6/X levels) or something?
I think it's a very good idea for a rage power, but not necessarily as a class feature.
Good work, i like it, but ill raise mettle to lvl 4th (´cause as it is now, i can take 3 lvls of barbarian and still get lvl 9 spells, rage, movement n mettle xD)
Just my 2 cp.
Good work, i like it, but ill raise mettle to lvl 4th (´cause as it is now, i can take 3 lvls of barbarian and still get lvl 9 spells, rage, movement n mettle xD)
Just my 2 cp.
It's definitely moving in revision! ;-)