I'd like to adapt that book from AD&D2 to Pathfinder, you know? The one with points given to customize the characters further. I'd like it to be completely generic, though, with no mention of the classes themselves. Has someone already done that?
Rough ideas:
- You start with 50 points, and use them to buy attribute scores, racial abilities, and class abilities (alternatively, you can start from scratch and gain your first points "adventuring" and role-playing a 0-level).
- For your choice of race, high LA implies a higher cost. You can then buy the abilities offered to that race. You can buy them at the character's creation or later. Some racial abilities would have a high cost and be available later. You can also buy bloodlines without going the Sorcerer road, to buy abilities from another race or just to fluff your character's background.
- With training, you can buy class abilities as well. You can train yourself in advancing what you already know, or train with another source (in a guild or under a mentor, for instance) to learn something new. The cost may vary from source to source. Some cost might include solving a quest for your mentor (and you might learn your new ability during the quest).
- Most abilities would have prerequisites, and you must meet them before buying them. For instance, Improved Evasion needs Evasion. Another prerequisite could be "has acquired enough experience (1000 XP)"
- Once trained in spellcasting (usually involving training in cantrips/orisons and a few 1st-level spells), you can buy more spells, spell levels, and caster levels.
- You can also buy career choices (your first job and your proficiency in it) and contacts (to improve your career later).
- You can also buy "regular" level advancement. Without using classes, you won't have class levels nor character level. Using these points, you can buy BAB points, saves, and HP dices.
- These character points could be linked to experience, on a 10-to-1 basis. Alternatively, we could remap the whole experience table, and use the new experience points as those character points.
Of course, that would lead to something very different from the D&D we know. To stay close, we'd have to tweak the ability costs to reflect the existing classes. All this isn't much advanced for the moment. What do you think about it?
You might just shortcut and use Gurps Fantasy.
yep and GURPS os great!
GRU
Question: does GURPS have as many options as D&D/PF?
One other thing I'd include in my system is versatility in spellcasting options:
1/ choose to cast spells (yes/no)
2/ choose spellcasting type (arcane/divine/mix/other?) => include psionics? voodoo? other "talents"?
3/ choose spellcasting stat (int/wis/cha/other?)
4/ choose spellcasting progression (full/partial/late) => useless since spell levels can be bought later
5/ choose spell access (all/fixed/choice)
6/ choose spell storage (memory/spellbook/other? - body runes, etc)
7/ choose spell preparation (meditation/study book/other?)
8/ choose spell casting (spontaneous/memorization/mix)
9/ choose additional spells (from high stat/from domains/etc)
Or you could use the HERO system. It's a point based system that allows you to create any effect you want. It's a little complex to get into, but once you get the hang of it it's not too bad.
Question: does GURPS have as many options as D&D/PF?
One other thing I'd include in my system is versatility in spellcasting options:
1/ choose to cast spells (yes/no)
2/ choose spellcasting type (arcane/divine/mix/other?) => include psionics? voodoo? other "talents"?
3/ choose spellcasting stat (int/wis/cha/other?)
4/ choose spellcasting progression (full/partial/late) => useless since spell levels can be bought later
5/ choose spell access (all/fixed/choice)
6/ choose spell storage (memory/spellbook/other? - body runes, etc)
7/ choose spell preparation (meditation/study book/other?)
8/ choose spell casting (spontaneous/memorization/mix)
9/ choose additional spells (from high stat/from domains/etc)
The only limitation GURPS has is whatever the GM sets, really. It is rather complicated to get set up and started, but once you've done the initial grunt work (which you'd have to do anyway with using PF this way) it's not too hard, and all the systems use the same rolls and roughly the same rules.
As someone else mentioned, Champions is also a possibility. The guy who wrote Champions worked on GURPS, and then went and built a similar system based on his ideas that didn't get picked for GURPS (If I remember my game history correctly).
Not sure how this is in comparison to the others, but BESM D20 is worth a look.
OR, let's introduce a new class: the real Jack-of-all-Trades
HD: d8
Skills: 4 points per level
BAB: Medium
Saves: good (all)
Weapon proficiency: all Simple
Armor proficiency: Light
Abilities:
- Advancement: each time the Jack-of-all-Trades gains a class level, he also gains FIVE points to advance his abilities (he starts in this class with FIVE points). These points can be stored for future use. Using one hour per point, he can spend them to acquire a new ability. Most abilities (unless stated otherwise) can't be acquired more than once per class level. List of abilities:
- Increased Attack (2 points): his BAB increase by one point. This can be taken multiple times, but the increased BAB from this ability can't exceed his class level.
- Increased Skills (2 points): he gains 4 skill points.
- Increased Vitality (2 points): he gains 1 permanent HP.
- Feat (3 points): he gains one feat.
- Arcane Study (4 points): he can now cast arcane spells as a 1st-level Wizard, but he has to acquire a spellbook beforehand.
- Magical Bloodline (6 points): he can now cast arcane spells like a 1st-level Sorcerer.
- Divine Link (6 points): he can now cast divine spells like a 1st-level Cleric.
- Nature Link (6 points): he can now cast divine spells like a 1st-level Druid.
- Improve Spellcasting (6 points): increase one of his spellcasting abilities.
- Inspiring Performance (4 points): he can now affect crowds like a 1st-level Bard.
- Smite Evil (4 points): he can Smite Evil like a 1st-level Paladin.
- Grace (6 points): he adds his Charisma modifier as a bonus to his saves.
- Trapfinding (4 points): he can now detect traps like a Rogue.
- Uncanny Dodge (6 points); Improved Uncanny Dodge (8 points)
- Evasion (8 points); Improved Evasion (10 points)
- Sneak Attack I (6 points): he can now make a 1d6 Sneak Attack; Sneak Attack II (6 points): 2d6; ...
- Unarmored (6 points): while wearing no armor, his Dex modifier is doubled.
- Wild Shape I (8 points): he can now Wild Shape like a 4th-level Druid; Wild Shape II (8 points): like a 6th-level Druid; ...
etc. etc.
- Alternatively, he can use one of these points to re-roll any dice.
OK, that was just silly. However, it was done to prove (kind of) that we could imagine a system using points for class advancement while keeping the D&D style we all know and love. And I really like throwing icosahedrons :-)
A points system is cumbersome and prone to min/maxing.
More important it offers no iconic characters. The classes (and to a lesser degree the races) are chosen for a reason, everyone has a good idea what the role of each class is.
This usually leads to a harsh decline in fantasy levels from the high fantasy of D&D to the rather low fantasy of some MMO aka: "I play a Spellcasting rank IV with medium HP, BAB and low Talents build." vs "I play a Bard."
To say one could imagine a system that still feels D&Dish is to say anything is possible, which is basically an automatic "yes, but...".
A points system is cumbersome and prone to min/maxing.
More important it offers no iconic characters. The classes (and to a lesser degree the races) are chosen for a reason, everyone has a good idea what the role of each class is.
This usually leads to a harsh decline in fantasy levels from the high fantasy of D&D to the rather low fantasy of some MMO aka: "I play a Spellcasting rank IV with medium HP, BAB and low Talents build." vs "I play a Bard."
To say one could imagine a system that still feels D&Dish is to say anything is possible, which is basically an automatic "yes, but...".
Points systems are easy to min-max... Which is why no one does.
After some observation, I've discovered this: People who play powerful characters want to be challenged. If you let them max out something, they won't be challenged in it. After a while, they'll ask for a rebuild.
Also an iconic character is something like an Elven mage or archer, a human ranger/king, and a Dwarf Fighter. Surely we can't be reduced to only playing things out of the book or from traditional fantasy? My lizardman fighter/cleric whose goal in life was to destroy all weapons he came across would have been a naked lizardman with a club who got stabbed in the chest on top of an altar while his party stole gems from the eye of his deific statue if that were the case. And Ssissiphuss loved his armor! He only went naked when going for a dip. After getting attacked by the lake monster (Ironic considering the topic I'm refuting...) he resolved to just hold his breath and oil his armor the next time.
If your group isn't mature enough to reign themselves in so they can be challenged, then maybe they can't be trusted with a point buy game. But people I TAUGHT to roleplay got past min-maxing within the first year. Maybe it's something about D&D that promotes this sort of behavior. I mean it's perfectly admissible in a game like CoC, but really guys? D&D is not that hard. You don't roll a six sider to see if you die from poison traps anymore. And min maxing barely helped you in second edition anyway if the DM knew your weaknesses. Wizards die from pits (Because preparing feather fall at low level will get the party to lynch you), Rouges die from prolonged combat and fighters die from a wizard on a 15 ft high platform. Rocks fall, Paper crumples, Scissors go in the DM's eye. This is just how things go.
Not sure how this is in comparison to the others, but BESM D20 is worth a look.
I've been trying to find the revised 3.5 version of that, and all I've been able to find is the 3.0 version.
Not sure how this is in comparison to the others, but BESM D20 is worth a look.I've been trying to find the revised 3.5 version of that, and all I've been able to find is the 3.0 version.
If I am not mistaken, there is a sheet to add to it that updates it to 3.5.
A lot of work converting D&D to Hero has been done by Killer Shrike. There is even some Pathfinder material if you poke around.
More important it offers no iconic characters. The classes (and to a lesser degree the races) are chosen for a reason, everyone has a good idea what the role of each class is.
The thing is that, in D&D and Pathfinder, the sheer number of classes (either base or prestige) dilutes the notion of iconic characters.
My other problem with iconic character is this: no player with experience needs to have a "good" idea (read: premade) of what a class is. This is useful for beginners mainly.
Now that I have played with iconic characters for a few years, I want something different, and not just multiclassing.
Yeah - I'm going to highly recommend BESM D20 for you, then. They took their point-based approach from their TriStat system (if you want to learn a similar system to GURPS or Hero/Champions, but with less crunch and more speed try the TriStat versions out there dX is free for download, too!), and they used it to redefine "classes" according to like a 15 character point/level "average" build.
The cool thing with what they did is that they took their time and even re-constructed the base classes from 3.x with their system and used extra CP's to beef up classes that fell short of the most powerful ones (now measurable by using their cp system). It's a great book overall, IMO.
Since you're suggesting going this way anyway, might as well look at what they did. I also have a house-rule "point" system I designed, but it was more for my aesthetics vs. just cracking open the system and re-building it with CP as a default assumption.
There's even a new class "adventurer" that is nothing but a bare minimum framework of abilities and at every level it gains cp instead of class features - you just save up and buy whatever you want as you go. It's the most "open" class I've ever seen.
Here's a link to BESM D20's SRD for you to check out: BESM D20
Here's a link to TriStat dX if you want to look at that system outside of D20 mechanics: TriStat dX
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Sorry, I disagree with the "it's easy, so they won't". I play a lot of point-based games (Vampire, L5R, Shadowrun). Most players generally generate to the higher end of the spectrum of power. This is fine, as long as everyone does it. The issue becomes those who do not start feeling worthless pretty quickly; in short, point systems are TERRIBLE for attracting new audience. It's the equivalent of 1st and 10th level characters in the same party.
It's a neat academic excercise, but honestly I like the simplicity and flavor of the iconic classes far more. But it would be interesting if someone could come up with a even semi-balanced "point buy" dnd just to see it.
Sorry, I disagree with the "it's easy, so they won't". I play a lot of point-based games (Vampire, L5R, Shadowrun). Most players generally generate to the higher end of the spectrum of power. This is fine, as long as everyone does it. The issue becomes those who do not start feeling worthless pretty quickly; in short, point systems are TERRIBLE for attracting new audience. It's the equivalent of 1st and 10th level characters in the same party.
It's a neat academic excercise, but honestly I like the simplicity and flavor of the iconic classes far more. But it would be interesting if someone could come up with a even semi-balanced "point buy" dnd just to see it.
BESM D20, dude. ;-)