Alright I love what has been done with the sorcerer over all. However the arcane bloodline just doesn't do it for me.
First off the arcana:
This ability requires you to burn a feat to use it, and even then isn't even really useful until level 4. All the other arcanas are useful from the word go, and actually do something to modify your spell, without a feat tax.
1st level power: I don't mind this one actually -- I want a familiar for the arcane bloodline so I'm good with it.
3rd level power: Again with the feat tax, and this time you really can't use it until 4th level. Once per day too? Come on! The other bloodlines are getting extended reach, energy resistances, natural armor, and abilities to ignore natural difficult terrain. Permanent abilities that actually have use. Instead I'm getting to once per day act like I'm a wizard for using a feat that I have to take before this power even has an use!
9th level power: This is one I could see moving down to the third level spot honestly and increasing how many it gives. Three extra spells over a 8 level span just isn't as neat as flight, fortification, bonuses to stats, random use of greater invisibility, and blast abilities.
15th level power: Ok this one I like as is. Basically it's a stacking Greater Spell Focus, and it makes sense.
20th level power: This is just bad. I can give up spells to keep from draining crappy items, and I can finally cast spells with metamagic feats as if I was a wizard. Underwhelming compared to Blindsight, immunity to critical hits, Damage reduction, poison immunity, elemental immunities, Telepathy, etc.
So why am I posting here? To see if anyone can help me come up with better ideas for feeling these slots.
Isn't the arcane bloodline generally considered the best of the bloodlines by quite a fair margin?
Isn't the arcane bloodline generally considered the best of the bloodlines by quite a fair margin?
If so I don't see why: A bloodline arcana that can't really be used until 4th level, a third level power with the same issue -- both of which rely on a feat tax and the third level power is limited times per day.
But let me be clear what I want for these:
I don't want powers that rely on me being forced to take a feat. No other bloodline requires a feat expenditure.
I don't want powers that are of little to no use until 4th level at the earliest.
All the other bloodlines can get immediate use out of their bloodline arcana at first level, and their third level powers -- without burning a feat for it, and without it going "Poof gone now that you've used it once".
Arcana is actually one of the weakest bloodlines. At level 20 I can keep charges in wands for 3 spell levels per charge? Oh goodie! I can waste magic that could actually have an effect for magic that will be at minimum caster level and DC! Oh and I can finally regularly use metamagic like a wizard would do (not like that isn't something everyone else could already do beyond the bard and sorcerer), the only meta magic feat that is really worth it though is quicken spell and it already works that way for the sorcerer, and wouldn't be useful until level 10 anyways (yes I know you can quicken 0th level spells... but really why?).
I'm just asking for something that's actually useful by itself.
I'm good with the fifteenth level power, I like the ninth level power (I think it should be more and earlier), and I'm happy with the chance at a familiar (though the wizard gets the familiar, a more useful feat, and a first level power, that generally has two parts to it).
It's like this, if you don't like using metamagic don't take arcane bloodline. That's what it's all about. Without it you can't get a familiar or bonded item either, which is sometimes precisely what you want for your build. I took Arcane with Bonded Item for my arcane archer so I could get a free masterwork composite longbow at 1st level. Wee!
Draconic bloodline is only useful at low levels if you want to engage in physical combat as a caster (bad move imo) and elemental is only useful if you want to be a blaster. They're all different and they all fit a certain style of play better than others.
Also, you don't HAVE to burn a feat, you'll eventually get a metamagic feat as a bonus feat. But again if you don't like using metamagic then don't take Arcane bloodline, if you do however it is very good. See how it works differently depending on your style of play?
It's like this, if you don't like using metamagic don't take arcane bloodline. That's what it's all about. Without it you can't get a familiar or bonded item either, which is sometimes precisely what you want for your build. I took Arcane with Bonded Item for my arcane archer so I could get a free masterwork composite longbow at 1st level. Wee!
Draconic bloodline is only useful at low levels if you want to engage in physical combat as a caster (bad move imo) and elemental is only useful if you want to be a blaster. They're all different and they all fit a certain style of play better than others.
Also, you don't HAVE to burn a feat, you'll eventually get a metamagic feat as a bonus feat. But again if you don't like using metamagic then don't take Arcane bloodline, if you do however it is very good. See how it works differently depending on your style of play?
Yes and no:
The other bloodlines arcana generally works as a metamagic feat already, or boosts things without it. I simply thing this is something that should have been incorporated in the arcane bloodline too -- hence why I'm looking to house rule it. I am asking for suggestions on it.
I don't specifically mean to complain that the bloodline is crap or the like, otherwise I would bring it up in general discussion instead of here -- I do realize people may not agree with my points.
I have:
1. Stated where my problem is.
2. Stated what I'm looking for in a solution.
3. Asked for help in finding a solution that I can apply with House Rules.
I am not:
1. Arguing that Paizo should change this to suit me now. (the time for that would be long past)
2. Looking to validate or invalidate what has already been done.
3. Asked for validation or invalidation for what my view.
Considering this is the homebrew / suggestions/ house rules forum I asked for help with a house rule here, not someone's opinion on how I should view the game or how it should work.
Well if I were to try to make it better I think the only things i would change is letting the sorcerer have unlimited use of his 3rd level bloodline power and at 20th level let him "sacrifice" lower level spell slots en masse to give him an extra higher level spell slot. Like 3 4th level spells making a 9th level spell, or 2 3rd level spells for a 4th level spell, exchanging these takes a move equivalent. Lets him go nova a bit more.
Well if I were to try to make it better I think the only things i would change is letting the sorcerer have unlimited use of his 3rd level bloodline power and at 20th level let him "sacrifice" lower level spell slots en masse to give him an extra higher level spell slot. Like 3 4th level spells making a 9th level spell, or 2 3rd level spells for a 4th level spell, exchanging these takes a move equivalent. Lets him go nova a bit more.
Now that is an interesting thought... like the versatile caster feat from Races of Dragon (3.5)? Would it work as the ninth level power if I drop the ninth level power down to 3rd level you think (if done that way I would still need a new capstone though)?
How about permanent made spell effects (chosen by the player from a small list) for the sorcerer? And more known spells as you said before?
Or a specialisation inside the specialisation, you choose a school and get some additional powers related to that school like a wizard does? (but more something like self-enhancement to survive battle)
The other thought I had was similar to the old Wizard universalist capstone from beta. +2 on spell penetration checks and +1 to all spell DCs or something like that.
@meatrace: I like that idea for the capstone, actually - fits well, IMO.
In general: does the "bloodline arcana" need to be a spell-modifying ability? I've been looking over a few and they aren't necessarily about that ...
To me, the most powerful bloodline arcana is the Fey one.
Immediately useful at first level. Human Sorc, Fey bloodline, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus on Enchantment, 20 CHA, and the bloodline ability give you a save DC of 10+1+5+2+2 = DC 20.
That's a 'win fight' spell for most CR 1 to CR 3 encounters.
Hold Person at 4th level is a DC 21 spell. While none of the mind affecting spells are 'save or die', a large number of them are 'save or be my butt monkey' down to 'save or suck'.
{should be familiar, Abe, but ...}
How about setting the bloodline arcana as "+2 to effective caster level of any spell cast" or something like that?
I like +2 more than +1 because, IMO, it will remain more relevant that way as levels progress (more than a +1 in most cases being almost negligible in effect, but the +2 is pretty decent even later on).
It's better than the current thing as it's usable immediately and at all levels through 4th (where the current one is first usable).
I'm not sure on "balance" of this, but it's certainly useful ... theme-wise I think it fits better to apply this to all spells cast (vs. most other bloodlines getting narrow focused bonuses). Unlike those, "arcane magic" as a whole seems to be the emphasis of this type of caster, so it looks like a good fit to me.
Almost every one of those bonuses I've seen are pretty useful up front, and only get MORE useful as time goes on. A flat +1 I don't think would go far enough to 'more useful' like the others, where the +2 would (for instance, starting level 1 guy casting magic missile would get 2 missiles vs. 1 = casting like 3rd level effect).
DC's aren't based on caster level, as far as I know, so it's a good way to boost a spell effect variable w/out messing with the inherent "power" of the spell (like say what the Fey do with their enchantment spells).
Thoughts?
If you're going to change the Arcane Bloodline to make it more attractive, keep in mind that most people regard it as the most powerful because they can get an improved familiar with use magic device (+ranks). Give the mephit a wand and away you go.
So if you make the bloodline better, you might want to remove the arcane bond to compensate. YMMV. It really depends on how much better you make it.
I think you're underestimating the power of the 3rd and 20th level abilities. They do not let you use metamagic 'like a wizard'. You can now use it better than a wizard. Don't forget that a wizard needs to prepare all those silent-stilled spells ahead of time. As a Sorcerer, you can now use metamagic or not, all on the fly, just as quick as a Wizard who spent 15 minutes getting that spell ready that he may or may not end up using that day.
The other aspect of the 20th level ability that you're neglecting has nothing to do with wands. At 20th level, who cares about wands? It's all about the staves. And now that staves are limited to 10 charges max, the ability to burn a handful of low-level spells to activate a high-level staff charge is awesome. With a Sorcerer's limited spell selection, this adds much more versatility. Especially considering that you'll likely have a good UMD check. There's nothing in the ability that says the item has to have an arcane spell in it. Anything that gives a Sorcerer versatility on top of their focused might is a good thing.
So yeah, requiring you to pick metamagic feats to make use of your abilities kinda sucks I'll give you that. On the other hand though, they're almost a given, especially with feats every odd level now, plus bonus feats. If it really gets your back up, maybe one free metamagic feat at 3rd level (with no more than a +1 spell level adjustment), and add more metamagic to the bonus feat list.
I'm not looking at supercharging the Arcane bloodline I understand that if I added stuff on top of what it has now it would end up that way.
Wizards have several ways to decide ahead of time what they want to do with metamagics and the rods are always available for both sides -- at the end of the day though that's a neither here nor there argument for me -- the problem is the fact it dictates at least one feat choice for you, and then the first time you use it it's gone, in addition to the fact that it's extremely limited in scope for a third level power, especially since you don't really have any metamagic worth using (in general) or that you really can use (due to the lack of spell slots to put it in).
The other twentieth level abilities are nearly as limited in scope or tied down to burning feats and having items. Immunity to criticals, blindsight, immunity to poison, paralysis, elements, blind sense, flight, etc.
All these thing remove the need for extra spells known, provide abilities that characters normally don't have access to, and improve the sorcerer directly -- that's what I'm looking for on the arcane bloodline too.
Something that isn't reliant on items and feat choices to be useful. I don't want "more power" in the direct sense (such as adding on) I'm looking for good replacements of these current things: Arcana, level 3 power, level 20 power.
I'm thinking that lowering the level 9 ability to the level 3 one and having it go off every three levels would probably be a worthwhile level 3 power... what do others thing?
I really like meatraces idea of being able to change spells slots into other spell slots a few times per day -- I think setting that at 9th level could be really useful, with a "no more than your class level in spell levels can be changed this way, and of spell slot no more than your highest level spell slot +1" tagged on it to prevent creation of a 9th level spell at 9th character level but allow the arcane sorcerer to occasionally be able to pull something off of higher level than a wizard could.
A thought on the arcana: Possibly allowing metamagic feats to be taken as spells known at a spell level equal to their adjustment +1. Then as a swift action they can be "cast" at the level they are known to adjust a spell cast normally afterward.
You know - on that meta-idea, sorcerers are already spell-starved, and that metamagic bit would dip even further into that. I'm not sure it's a good idea - certainly powerful/useful, but man - almost crippling to this class in the long run, IMO.
No other arcana is giving anything up like that ... they just get stuff to modify their spells and casting bits, etc (mostly - few odd balls tossed in, though).
I don't see your complaint, this particular bloodline makes taking metamagic feats worth the time and energy.
I've never been a big fan of the sorcerer since 3rd ED came out, but when I read the bloodline abilities I actually was tempted to play one, and I like the arcane bloodline just the way it is, each bloodline has its advantages and disadvantages just the way they where written.
I don't see your complaint, this particular bloodline makes taking metamagic feats worth the time and energy.
I've never been a big fan of the sorcerer since 3rd ED came out, but when I read the bloodline abilities I actually was tempted to play one, and I like the arcane bloodline just the way it is, each bloodline has its advantages and disadvantages just the way they where written.
The problems isn't the power itself per se - it's the idea that they get the powers at points in level where they can't POSSIBLY put them to use, AND they require feats where the other bloodlines don't require feats (yet get feat-equivalent bonuses at least in some cases).
:shrugs:
I'm real close to house-ruling it to my taste as it stands, though ... Abraham and I've been working on it a bit. We'll probably post up final thoughts later on (when finalized).
For the record, I *do* like the flavor of the powers and the fact that it makes meta-feats more useful ... I'm just not a fan of where and how that comes into play, though.
Ok just to return to this topic here are the changes we (TSID and myself) have looked at making to the arcane bloodline.
Bloodline Arcana: Sorcerer's of the arcane bloodline have the power of magic literally flowing through their veins. As such, when they cast, their spells tend to carry more potency than most magic users, and even more than other bloodlines. Add +1 to the effective caster level of the sorcerer. In particular, this impacts things like Caster Level checks (to by pass SR), and any spells with caster-level dependent effects.
1st Level Power - Arcane Bond: unchanged from standard description and function.
3rd Level Power - Spell Knowledge: At this level sorcerers gain a special bond with certain spells and tapping their inner power of magical essence. At 3rd level they gain the ability to add 1 extra spell to their list of known spells. In addition, if that spell has any level dependent variable with a cap of some kind {like 5 magic missiles max}, then the cap for THAT SPELL is removed for you when cast by you. In effect, this increases all effects to continue to progress according to your caster level even when the spell would normally have some sort of top-end functional limit. You gain another spell known and likewise unlockable in this same manner for every three sorcerer levels you gain after the initial {6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th - for a total of 6 "unlocked" spells by level 18}.
9th Level Power - Instant Metamagic: Once per day you can cast a spell you know, modified with ANY metamagic feat (even one you do NOT have) without raising it's spell level, or altering the casting time. You can't use this power on a spell if it would effectively raise the spells level to something higher than your highest spell capacity for casting. {ie: if you can only cast 6th level effects, and you use a meta-magic feat with a +2 level, you could only use that on 4th level spells at most, since 5th or 6th +2 would go over your highest capacity of 6th level spells only.} You gain another daily use of this ability at 13th level, and 17th level for a total of 3 daily uses.
15th Level Power - School Power: unchanged from standard description and function.
20th Level Power - Arcane Apotheosis: several changes have been made to this, so they will be listed in #'s below this. There are 3 effects in total (in-line with all other bloodline cap-stone powers now}
_____#1) Item Charging - this functions by allowing an exchange of spell levels that you have the capacity to cast in exchange to power "charged" devices - wands, rods, staves, etc. The exchange rate is 3 spell levels for one charge, and the spell levels can be made up of any combination of spell capacity you wish to sacrifice in order to manage the 3:1 exchange. {ie: three level 1 spells, 1 level 1 and 1 level 2, one 3rd, two 3rd's for 2 charges, etc, etc, etc - completely at the discretion of the player in how to make this happen.}
_____#2) Unshakable Composure - whenever making a caster level check for any reason, the sorcerer can instead opt to "Take 10" even in situations where stress would make this impossible. Magic flows like them too quickly and easily to be held up long, and so they are more capable when it comes to gathering the required concentration and executing the spells they cast.
So to recap the idea behind the changes:
1. Doesn't require a feat to use a class feature.
2. Class features are useful from the point you gain them.
3. The general idea is to not increase the overall power level or change the theme... it is simply to remove the "feat tax" to use class features but to make the features desirable by themselves.
Just to add a *small* bit of clarity to that there are 2 things we're still sort of up in the air about:
1) The Bloodline Arcana bonus - my initial thought was +2 caster levels for effect determinations, but ... not sure if it's too powerful or what. It seems awfully minor in effect to me ... please weigh in on some thoughts there - anyone?
2) Pretty much every bloodline gets to 20 and has 3 effects ... you'll note there's only 2 in the above - we're really, really, looking hard for that 3rd effect. Again - any thoughts out there?
I'm just going to bump this to try and get some attention... it has been a couple of days.
I'm just going to bump this to try and get some attention... it has been a couple of days.
I don't know. I think I'd take this instead of the usual Arcane Bloodline abilities every single time. Adding spells known is HUGE for a Sorcerer, and one of the best functions of the Arcane line as it was.
I'm just going to bump this to try and get some attention... it has been a couple of days.I don't know. I think I'd take this instead of the usual Arcane Bloodline abilities every single time. Adding spells known is HUGE for a Sorcerer, and one of the best functions of the Arcane line as it was.
Here would be the biggest question as far as I'm concerned...
Would you take this over any other bloodline every time?
Is this hands down better than the other bloodlines, or would you still take Aberrant, or elemental or draconic still?
Here would be the biggest question as far as I'm concerned...Would you take this over any other bloodline every time?
Is this hands down better than the other bloodlines, or would you still take Aberrant, or elemental or draconic still?
I'd be a bad one to ask, because I'd take Arcane over the others based on the Bloodline spells (invisibility, dispel magic, dimension door, overland flight are spells I'd take even without them being free) and the additional spells known at 9th and 13th levels (I don't play much beyond 13-15th levels). Really you're not too bad with when the 'extra' spells kick in (just an extra 1st and 3rd level spells to go along with the up to 4th and 6th level spells that Arcane already provides you at the appropriate levels). I'd say it's the level-dependent cap breaking that I'm a little uncomfortable with (Magic Missile jumps to mind, especially Quickened). All in all, it's not atrocious, but I'd probably pick it over all others anyway, and this adds more gravy to the train.