I like the fact that there are very few things immune to critical hits and sneak attack in Pathfinder. It always sucked to start a standard game as a Rogue and then have the DM decide to go full on undead. Having played to 10th level as a Rogue I am starting to feel a little guilty (Rogues are my favored class, so I worry about this sort of thing). I was wondering if people thought a middle ground might work. Give undead, constructs, plants, etc a resistance to critical damage. They only take 1/2 damage from precision damage (sneak attack) and lower the critical multiplier of a weapon down one step (to a minimum of X1.5). This would mean these monsters where a bit tougher but you don't negate a class ability and you still get to do more on a critical. I'd also change Fortification over to this.
I'm of the thinking that rogues already have a tough enough time getting into advantageous positions to utilize their sneak attack as it is (if you have a crafty DM.) Therefore, I would state that nothing further need be changed and that Pathfinder's removal of immunity was in good order.
I'm of the thinking that rogues already have a tough enough time getting into advantageous positions to utilize their sneak attack as it is (if you have a crafty DM.) Therefore, I would state that nothing further need be changed and that Pathfinder's removal of immunity was in good order.
The character I'm currently playing gets to sneak attack probably about 75%-80% of the time and I usually don't have that much trouble hitting either. Of course I go for Feats like Improved Initiative and Improved Feint to maximize my chances for getting a Sneak Attack, so I don't really have a problem getting it off.
What I'm proposing is something that would make some monsters a bit tougher, but effects all the classes. Undead lost Critical Immunity, GREAT! But they also lost that d12 hit dice and the Cha mod to HP doesn't help mindless undead that much. One thing that I'd do to balance out things out a bit more would be to change DR as I dislike the system and feel that it can leave classes out in the could if they aren't carrying the golf bag full of weapons. I personally like the idea of a pool of temperary HP that refreshes on each of the monster's rounds, that way even a bard with a crossbow can help wear down a monster rather then just sitting around.
One thing that I'd do to balance things out a bit more would be to change DR as I dislike the system and feel that it can leave classes out in the cold if they aren't carrying the golf bag full of weapons.
Except in unusual circumstances, DR isn't meant to completely negate damage - just slow down the application of hate the party's damage-dealers are giving out. So while bypassing it is cool, it's not necessary.
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I kinda like that more things can take critical damage. Makes the DM describe that the fighter put every ounce of strength into his sword swing and taking a huge chunk out of the zombie.
Now, the sneak attack thing...i dont like that it can effect more creatures. The rogue dishing out extra damage cuz it found a "vital area" to hit on the zombie just doesnt sit well with me. I do understand why they did it, but i just dont like it. The rogue is the skill monkey of the group, he can find traps, etc but i dont think he should be able to sneak attack a vampire....
Maybe I am just too old and set into my ways of the game. :)
Ask the DM for some kind of special feat like "undead hunter" or "divine strike" allowing you not do dish out the same amount of damage you would do with regular sneak attacks but at least some decent points of damage (or instead of damage some kind of special undead only trip attack), fitting to your rogues style
As a result, you wont be useless anymore but against this special foe not quite the strongest combatant and you lost a feat
Sorry if this shows up twice.
We've been doing exactly this for ohh...about 8 years now. Worked like a charm in 3.x and still using it in PF.
Are you saying you use a system like the one I'm talking about, the 3.X system of immunity, or the one Pathfinder now uses?
I kinda like that more things can take critical damage. Makes the DM describe that the fighter put every ounce of strength into his sword swing and taking a huge chunk out of the zombie.
Now, the sneak attack thing...i dont like that it can effect more creatures. The rogue dishing out extra damage cuz it found a "vital area" to hit on the zombie just doesnt sit well with me. I do understand why they did it, but i just dont like it. The rogue is the skill monkey of the group, he can find traps, etc but i dont think he should be able to sneak attack a vampire....
Maybe I am just too old and set into my ways of the game. :)
This is a comprimise for both schools of thought. I can see a Zombie taking less damage to critical hits, but they still have locations vital to their structure. Targeting joints and such would still be effective. Also I like the idea that a critical hit almost always does more. You should be able to take a zombie's head with a lucky swing.
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Sorry if this shows up twice.
We've been doing exactly this for ohh...about 8 years now. Worked like a charm in 3.x and still using it in PF.Are you saying you use a system like the one I'm talking about, the 3.X system of immunity, or the one Pathfinder now uses?
This is a comprimise for both schools of thought. I can see a Zombie taking less damage to critical hits, but they still have locations vital to their structure. Targeting joints and such would still be effective. Also I like the idea that a critical hit almost always does more. You should be able to take a zombie's head with a lucky swing.I kinda like that more things can take critical damage. Makes the DM describe that the fighter put every ounce of strength into his sword swing and taking a huge chunk out of the zombie.
Now, the sneak attack thing...i dont like that it can effect more creatures. The rogue dishing out extra damage cuz it found a "vital area" to hit on the zombie just doesnt sit well with me. I do understand why they did it, but i just dont like it. The rogue is the skill monkey of the group, he can find traps, etc but i dont think he should be able to sneak attack a vampire....
Maybe I am just too old and set into my ways of the game. :)
Maybe I am thinking of a different definition about "vitals". I always think, heart, lungs, kidneys, etc.... Thats why I have a hard time giving a rogue the ability to "sneak attack" things like zombies, vampires, etc. Dont rogues have the ability to "hamstring" a foe or am I thinking of a feat. That part would make sense to me where the rogue does cut the tendon or muscle, but not sure how I would apply that to damage other than he cuts the creature's MCL or he cuts the foe's tricep. Since the rules dont use called shots its hard for me to gasp a concept of "vital area" without including internal organs.
Maybe I am thinking of a different definition about "vitals". I always think, heart, lungs, kidneys, etc.... Thats why I have a hard time giving a rogue the ability to "sneak attack" things like zombies, vampires, etc. Dont rogues have the ability to "hamstring" a foe or am I thinking of a feat. That part would make sense to me where the rogue does cut the tendon or muscle, but not sure how I would apply that to damage other than he cuts the creature's MCL or he cuts the foe's tricep. Since the rules dont use called shots its hard for me to gasp a concept of "vital area" without including internal organs.
Well I think a lot of it depends on what you view HP as. Since there is no deference between a character's abilities at 1 HP as there is at full, I always took it as a character's ability to turn a hit into something superficial. When you got to 0 or below that's when you get hit something really vital. If sneak attack was that you targeted the Heart or Lungs specificly then it would probably work like Death Strike with assassins. Puncturing one of these would kill a wizard just as quickly as a fighter, but for most undead it wouldn't affect them (Though I might allow an assassin to stake a vampire).
The one you're talking about.
We've been doing exactly this for ohh...about 8 years now. Worked like a charm in 3.x and still using it in PF.Are you saying you use a system like the one I'm talking about, the 3.X system of immunity, or the one Pathfinder now uses?
Cool! Mind if I ask what made your group house rule this?
Ask the DM for some kind of special feat like "undead hunter" or "divine strike" allowing you not do dish out the same amount of damage you would do with regular sneak attacks but at least some decent points of damage (or instead of damage some kind of special undead only trip attack), fitting to your rogues style
As a result, you wont be useless anymore but against this special foe not quite the strongest combatant and you lost a feat
That's actually one of the class abilities of the Crypt Stalker PrC we have in Paths of Power, from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming.
Sean
4WFG