Not sure if this is a general rules question, or a homebrew question, so i'm throwing it here first.
I've been able to find zero information on Swarm Animal Companions. Searching the forums here, i've found lots of references to players using them, but no actual rules on them. I've scoured the books in Pathfinder and even a few 3.5 splatbooks for info on this and the closest I can come across is a tiny reference on a wizards.com article where he adds them on a companion/level chart but leaves no rules, and the two feats in the Campaign setting, Vermin Heart and Vermin Companion, While those feats do cover vermin species (The most used type of creature in swarms), they don't cover swarms themselves.
So what rules are there for Swarm Companions, existing or homebrew? Is there a way for a swarm companion to be balanced and not overpowered? How would a swarm companion level up?
I've been researching and trying to think up some good houserules for this, but I can't seem to get any good ideas myself without it being overpowered.
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I dont know if there is anything official on the subject to be honest, but Im positive there are others out there with much more knowledge than me. Im wanting to do something like this myself with a character Im running now, an alchemist. Im wanting to, at some point, try to befriend/make a chymick swarm (as per the paizo rpg superstar entry) to have as a unique, portable alchemy lab and cool fluff. Im wanting it at higher levels, where the swarm wont be overpowering in combat, but that just SCREAMS awesome to me. So color me interested in people's ideas on the subject of swarm familiars.
Actually paying attention to the swarm rules, I'd say you're probably safe with them at any level after 5 or so. 7 to be safe, I guess.
Basically, you take animal companion progression, then start out with a statblock like
Bat Swarm
Starting Statistics: Size diminuitive; Speed 5 ft., fly 40 ft. (good); AC +4 size; Attacks none; Ability Scores Str 4, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4; Special Attacks swarm (1d6 per 5 hd); Special Qualities blindsense 20 ft., low-light vision, swarm traits.
I'd justify it with a feat, minimum level 7, at which point they'll be fairly harmless. While you make big gains in evasiveness for the swarm traits, you'll actually do less damage than a tiger or wolf in combat, and lose out on a great deal of utility (no riding a swarm, can't equip it with items, can't enhance it with spells, etc).
I can see a cognitive disconnect happening when trying to figure out how it is a single character masters a teeming pile of rats or whatever, but we can leave that as an exercise in druid hand waving :)
This seems like an excellent idea. There are some parts of the house rule to address. How would prefer to handle this:
A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
I can see a cognitive disconnect happening when trying to figure out how it is a single character masters a teeming pile of rats or whatever, but we can leave that as an exercise in druid hand waving :)
Ever see the movie Willard?
Actually paying attention to the swarm rules, I'd say you're probably safe with them at any level after 5 or so. 7 to be safe, I guess.
Basically, you take animal companion progression, then start out with a statblock like
Bat Swarm
Starting Statistics: Size diminuitive; Speed 5 ft., fly 40 ft. (good); AC +4 size; Attacks none; Ability Scores Str 4, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4; Special Attacks swarm (1d6 per 5 hd); Special Qualities blindsense 20 ft., low-light vision, swarm traits.I'd justify it with a feat, minimum level 7, at which point they'll be fairly harmless. While you make big gains in evasiveness for the swarm traits, you'll actually do less damage than a tiger or wolf in combat, and lose out on a great deal of utility (no riding a swarm, can't equip it with items, can't enhance it with spells, etc).
I can see a cognitive disconnect happening when trying to figure out how it is a single character masters a teeming pile of rats or whatever, but we can leave that as an exercise in druid hand waving :)
Perhaps you've heard of the Pied piper? A bard thats able to control hoards of tiny animals through music seems perfectly reasonable to me.
The idea is good and fits many iconic cliches of course, but there is a problem.
A swarm is going to be used in combat, which means it will be killed.
It doesn't matter for a NPC who appears just for one fight, but it is surely a problem for a PC.
The idea is good and fits many iconic cliches of course, but there is a problem.
A swarm is going to be used in combat, which means it will be killed.
It doesn't matter for a NPC who appears just for one fight, but it is surely a problem for a PC.
All animal companions will be used in combat and can be killed. You spend a day to get a new one and move on. The swarm owner can justify this easier in my mind than someone summoning a wolf or ape.
So basically you are OK with a character pretending to get attached to a special creature (or a swarm), bonding a link, and then send it to death as a worthless piece of meat, thinking you can replace it like an expendable tool ?
I don't think that's the idea of an animal companion or a familiar.
Familiars and animal companions are supposed to be best friends of a character. You don't send a friend to death.
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So basically you are OK with a character pretending to get attached to a special creature (or a swarm), bonding a link, and then send it to death as a worthless piece of meat, thinking you can replace it like an expendable tool ?
I don't think that's the idea of an animal companion or a familiar.
Familiars and animal companions are supposed to be best friends of a character. You don't send a friend to death.
With my idea, I have NO intentions of using my swarm companion in combat, its much to valuable to my character as a portable alchemy lab. He is going to have to put a lot of work into getting it, and my character is not the type to waste such hard work in obvious situations such as combat which would destroy his hard work so easily. Besides deep down, and he would not admit this to anyone, but he actually cares about his construct swarm, but you bet your farm he will do his best to hide this. Seeing some reasonable ideas, I was thinking taking some sort of feat to allow my alchemist to have a companion, and talking to my DM to let me use craft(alchemy) to make my swarm. I was thinking it taking several months/years to make (in meta game terms over the course of a few levels, we just hit level 2, and I wanted it by 5-8 range), taking a few weeks here and there on our adventure downtime to put work into making it.
So basically you are OK with a character pretending to get attached to a special creature (or a swarm), bonding a link, and then send it to death as a worthless piece of meat, thinking you can replace it like an expendable tool ?
I don't think that's the idea of an animal companion or a familiar.
Familiars and animal companions are supposed to be best friends of a character. You don't send a friend to death.
No, my point is that almost every animal companion is used in combat. There is nothing special about the swarm in that regard, other than the fact that it gets some bonus defensive abilities, like being immune to weapon damage. Since it trades a lot of offensive capabilities to get this, I don't see it as a problem.
To continue, its easier for me to justify many small woodland animals, insects, ect, joining up with the druid than it is for me to justify a wolf, ape, or similar social animal, leaving its pack to join the druid.
I can see a cognitive disconnect happening when trying to figure out how it is a single character masters a teeming pile of rats or whatever, but we can leave that as an exercise in druid hand waving :)Ever see the movie Willard?
And there you've accomplished that hand waving I was talking about :). I'm mostly thinking of how druids are supposed to form a close empathic bond with their animal, and how that becomes hard when they have a thousand animals to tend to, and the die by the hundred in each fight. Clearly it's not a big deal, it's just a small perversion of the base animal companion concept.
With my idea, I have NO intentions of using my swarm companion in combat, its much to valuable to my character as a portable alchemy lab. He is going to have to put a lot of work into getting it, and my character is not the type to waste such hard work in obvious situations such as combat which would destroy his hard work so easily. Besides deep down, and he would not admit this to anyone, but he actually cares about his construct swarm, but you bet your farm he will do his best to hide this. Seeing some reasonable ideas, I was thinking taking some sort of feat to allow my alchemist to have a companion, and talking to my DM to let me use craft(alchemy) to make my swarm. I was thinking it taking several months/years to make (in meta game terms over the course of a few levels, we just hit level 2, and I wanted it by 5-8 range), taking a few weeks here and there on our adventure downtime to put work into making it.
You know, for your particular case, you've actually already got an easy solution within the rules: Craft Construct.
Granted, it'll eat some other feats with prerequisites, but that's sort of the price you pay for awesomeness. Your only trouble will be that constructs are fairly spendy even at the best of times.
Back in the heyday of 3.5, I had a wizard who built himself two swarms of those electrified, spinning adamantine blades (can't think of the construct's name, offhand) completely within the rules. That guy was a ridiculous dungeoncrawler, just flew along in a cloud of blades and chewed through stone walls. It was good times.
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You know, for your particular case, you've actually already got an easy solution within the rules: Craft Construct.Granted, it'll eat some other feats with prerequisites, but that's sort of the price you pay for awesomeness. Your only trouble will be that constructs are fairly spendy even at the best of...
Hmm thats a lot of feats to pick up, heh. Puts my ETA of picking up the swarm at about 9th level. I might talk with my DM an see if he would allow me to substitute craft wand in place of magic armor, as I had planned on picking wands up. Otherwise it seems to be a pretty fair investment. Thanks for the heads up on that feat, wasn't aware it existed. I don't normally play caster types, so never bothered to mess with item creation feats.
*EDIT* Looking over the specifics of the creation of the chymick swarm, the alchemist has neither spell required on his possible list. Does anyone have any thoughts on possible compromises that could be made to allow an alchemist who has spent the feats to make the swarm?
Hmm thats a lot of feats to pick up, heh. Puts my ETA of picking up the swarm at about 9th level. I might talk with my DM an see if he would allow me to substitute craft wand in place of magic armor, as I had planned on picking wands up. Otherwise it seems to be a pretty fair investment. Thanks for the heads up on that feat, wasn't aware it existed. I don't normally play caster types, so never bothered to mess with item creation feats.
*EDIT* Looking over the specifics of the creation of the chymick swarm, the alchemist has neither spell required on his possible list. Does anyone have any thoughts on possible compromises that could be made to allow an alchemist who has spent the feats to make the swarm?
Well, one of the beautiful things in this case particular is that neither the alchemist nor the chymick swarm are strictly canon as yet, so there's a lot of wiggle room for houseruling. Why not just tweak the construction requirements to fit the alchemist's extract list? Within reason, of course.
As for the feats, I might make up a feat like Craft Alchemical Construct, permitting chymick swarms, homonculi, and other small inoffensive constructs in that vein (as opposed to big, armored bruisers). Prerequisites Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, Craft Wondrous Item, and Brew Potion.
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Well, one of the beautiful things in this case particular is that neither the alchemist nor the chymick swarm are strictly canon as yet, so there's a lot of wiggle room for houseruling. Why not just tweak the construction requirements to fit the alchemist's extract list? Within reason, of course.As for the feats, I might make up a feat like Craft Alchemical Construct, permitting chymick swarms, homonculi, and other small inoffensive constructs in that vein (as opposed to big, armored bruisers). Prerequisites Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, Craft Wondrous Item, and Brew Potion.
I've always played melee characters, this is my first foray into any sort of caster, so Im not to familiar with these feats, never really looked into them. Thats why I was asking for options on tweaking the how this is handled. And it makes it that much easier with the fact that the chymick isn't anything cannonized yet.
The Craft Alchemical Constuct seems likes a very nice way of handling this. I dont want to make massive, large constructs, just small ones. In fact the more I think about this, the more I want my alchemist to be almost a perverse druid, have numerous, noncombat alchemical creatures following him around. A pied piper of alchemical constructs. That being said, what sort of limit could we put into the feat just to make sure its obvious I dont intend to abuse it to make golems and the like? I was considering making some sort of whitelist of allowed creatures, to be stated in the feat. I know of homunculi, but what other small constructs are out there that would fit in with this theme?
Thanks for your input, also! This is really giving me some fun ideas to do with my character.
*edit* Gonna start up a new thread for this, as I dont wish to totally derail ravenot's thread. Sorry Raven, for getting it off track as much as I already have :)
A thought:
I've seen this link, as I mentioned in my original post, and while neat, the author adds no useful information short of supplying an "alternative list" for druid companions. No feats, no balancing, just a quick list thrown together in ten minutes to use as is. It still doesn't transfer well to Pathfinder either. I like that it's been thought about, i just wish the author went into a lot more detail then that blurb.
Seldris, I really don't understand your argument at all. A swarm doesn't 'have' to be used in combat more than any other companion has to. Even then, why would that matter any more for a swarm companion then it would with a Tiger companion? Or wizards familiar? They are all at risk of dying. I'm not sure why a swarm companion would need to fear it more than others? Is there some sort of secret society of RAID-wielding Exterminator NPC's hiding around every corner that I've been unaware of until now? ;) I have to say I agree with Caineach's assessment here.
No basic thoughts on how to implement a swarm companion yet?
No basic thoughts on how to implement a swarm companion yet?
Beyond the complete write-up in post 3? What more do you want? :P
No basic thoughts on how to implement a swarm companion yet?Beyond the complete write-up in post 3? What more do you want? :P
Bah, i shouldn't post that late at night. I didn't say what I meant to say!
I did indeed see that. The post doesn't really go into how the swarm would level up beyond that of a normal companion. But that doesn't really seem to work... the feats and abilities that normal companions get don't really transfer over to a swarm. Is it even possible for a swarm to gain feats? Not just sure how to go about that aspect.
Bah, i shouldn't post that late at night. I didn't say what I meant to say!
I did indeed see that. The post doesn't really go into how the swarm would level up beyond that of a normal companion. But that doesn't really seem to work... the feats and abilities that normal companions get don't really transfer over to a swarm. Is it even possible for a swarm to gain feats? Not just sure how to go about that aspect.
I actually chose the bat swarm pretty deliberately. If you'll look closely at the actual bestiary entry, you'll see that they have an intelligence score of 2, and consequently some perfectly sensible feats and skills.
As for the other abilities and increases that result from advancing in levels... well, it makes just as much sense to have an eagle gain 6 str or 12 natural armor as it does for a big pile of bats, or rats, or whatever other animal you fancy getting a swarm of. Evasion actually makes a lot more sense for bats than a horse, so that's cool too.
for some reason i'm thinking of the swarm companion as something like Shino from Naruto:
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Shino on Naruto wiki
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(those are his bugs coming out of his sleeves)
for some reason i'm thinking of the swarm companion as something like Shino from Naruto:
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Shino on Naruto wiki
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(those are his bugs coming out of his sleeves)
My game has someone doing this. He is like a sand elemental, and his swarm animal companion lives inside him. People can see the scarab beetles just under the mask that looks like flesh. He really creeps NPCs out.
Just found this link and wanted to share. :)