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Jared Ouimette wrote:If the terror attacks were kept secret how would we know what an abysmal job the government was doing?If no one in the media reported those acts, the terrorists wouldn't have a base of support.
Do you know how bummed out some of those terrorist groups would be if they just chalked up all their terrorist attacks to accidents or some kind of faulty infrastructure?
They could still pursue the terrorists, but the only people who would know about it would be the people doing the investigation.
You wouldn't, and neither would the terrorists.
Also, you can't really stop some of these attacks. I don't think we should change anything security, the terrorists will just wisen up and find another way of bypassing security. If something happens, deal with it, but don't give up my rights and freedom for some douchebag.
It's just not worth giving up my cologne and shampoo and standing in line at security for three hours just because Joe Blow terrorist has bombs in his underpants.

Bitter Thorn |

David Fryer wrote:Jared Ouimette wrote:A terrorist attack is an attack intended to inflict a feeling of fear and or terror into the people who witness it.Mark Chance wrote:Define a terrorist attack.Seth White wrote:I still don't get why he isn't labeled a terrorist. Because he was an anti-government psychopath, instead of a religious psycopath?It's the new Obamaspeak? There aren't any terrorists anymore?
So you're saying any act that hurts another person is a terrorist activity? Schoolyards are full of the little b@st@rds, then. War on Schools!
Was this a terrorist act? No. Neither was that muslim guy that shot up a military base, neither was Columbine, etc. None of them have political motivations. They aren't changing any minds, they aren't doing it "for a cause", etc. They just got p1ssed off one day and decided to take out anyone they thought wronged them.
That's called murder, not terrorism.

GentleGiant |

Except that, as I understand it, Denmark has higher taxes than the United States does.
From the OECD Database:
"Denmark is currently the most taxed country in the OECD and the world with an income tax of up to 59%"
The key words here in the OECD quotation are "UP TO" - while some do pay what amounts to close to 60% in taxes (made up by regular taxes + extra taxes for very high income people - can't remember the cut-off line), most people pay around 35-40% income tax (my current income is taxed at 39%, but I also have a large deductible because of debt).
When comparing US and Danish taxes remember to calculate such things as US health insurance too (since we have universal health care).Now, I have no first hand experience with US tax forms but I think most Danish tax forms are much simpler (going by the typical images of Americans slavering for days over their tax forms around April).
Obviously small business owners, some consultants (who might work for several different companies) and such might have slightly more complicated forms, but if your income doesn't really change from year to year it's a relatively simple matter of filling out your tax form (if at all, it lists your general income and such, so you only have to put in extra (or less) income, new loans (well, their interests as deductibles really), new large purchases (cars, boats etc.)).

Bitter Thorn |

David Fryer wrote:Except that, as I understand it, Denmark has higher taxes than the United States does.Kirth Gersen wrote:From the OECD Database:
"Denmark is currently the most taxed country in the OECD and the world with an income tax of up to 59%"The key words here in the OECD quotation are "UP TO" - while some do pay what amounts to close to 60% in taxes (made up by regular taxes + extra taxes for very high income people - can't remember the cut-off line), most people pay around 35-40% income tax (my current income is taxed at 39%, but I also have a large deductible because of debt).
When comparing US and Danish taxes remember to calculate such things as US health insurance too (since we have universal health care).
Now, I have no first hand experience with US tax forms but I think most Danish tax forms are much simpler (going by the typical images of Americans slavering for days over their tax forms around April).
Obviously small business owners, some consultants (who might work for several different companies) and such might have slightly more complicated forms, but if your income doesn't really change from year to year it's a relatively simple matter of filling out your tax form (if at all, it lists your general income and such, so you only have to put in extra (or less) income, new loans (well, their interests as deductibles really), new large purchases (cars, boats etc.)).
are loans taxed as income there?

GentleGiant |

are loans taxed as income there?
Not as such, but the interest on the loan is a deductible, which is why it has to be mentioned. On the other hand if YOU loan a friend some money and get interests on it, you are taxed on those interests as income.
EDIT: Keep in mind that I'm by no means an expert on taxes. I've only had low income jobs or been on welfare (including student payments... yes, we get paid to study over here), so my tax returns have been very simple and most years I don't really have to do anything as I have no changes to the already filled out papers.

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Was this a terrorist act? No. Neither was that muslim guy that shot up a military base, neither was Columbine, etc. None of them have political motivations. They aren't changing any minds, they aren't doing it "for a cause", etc. They just got p1ssed off one day and decided to take out anyone they thought wronged them.That's called murder, not terrorism.
Actually, the courts have prosocuted several bullying incidents under anti-terrorism statutes. Furthermore, I do not under stand how you can say that slamming an airplane into a building to protest tax policy isn't politically motivated. Nor does it make any sense to say openning up on soldiers on a military base to make a statement about the war in Afghanistan is not politically motivated. I would like to know how you define political motivation. The first two incidents that you mention certainly rise to the level of terrorism used by the United Nations and by the U.S. State Department. Only Columbine, of the incidents you mentioned, could have a case made that it isn't terrorism and even that could have a case made that it was.

toxycycline |

Where does the money for roads come from? Police? Fire department? Military and national defense? Medicare for old folks?
No taxes = neolithic era. I had enough of that doing field work in the third world, living in places where there were no police except militia-type thugs and bodyguards for local chiefs, where all the "highways" were mud, and where power and water were exceptions, rather than the rule. If that's what you're after, portions of Africa and the Caribbean will oblige you.
I was merely pointing out that the income tax is actually Theft by Deception.
It may surprise you to learn that paved roads existed prior to the implementation of the income tax. Some were evenly privately owned and operated. It wasn't until 1913 that the "third world" country known as the united States exited the "neolithic era" and began taxing the wages of citizens.
If you are serious about how roads can be provided without government theft of your money you might want to read this.
Government apologists often balk at the idea of ending the income tax and IRS. "How will the government provide X service?" is often the rebuttal. Most have no idea that the income tax provides less than half of the revenue to the federal government. The reality is that the revenue generated from the income tax only goes towards servicing the interest on the debt while most of the on budget expenditures are covered by inflating the money supply via the Federal Reserve and borrowing from foreign countries. OF course corporate taxes, excise taxes, and payroll taxes make up a smaller portion of the revenue as well.
The government has been spending way more than it takes from the people for decades. With trillions in debt and nearly a hundred trillion in unfunded liabilities in the next few decades, the farce that we can police the entire planet earth by ourselves, provide unlimited healthcare, and all live at the expense of everyone else will eventually have to come to an end.

NPC Dave |
Salon has an two articles up explaining how the 1986 amendment to the tax code really did completely screw over people like Joe Stack.
And the last paragraph of that second article really is disturbing.
Since a lot of this thread has been debating taxes, I propose an alternative to changing the tax code which may help prevent future Joe Stacks.
Going back to his manifesto..."Sadly starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was no taxation without representation. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap"
Maybe if we stop teaching that crap in schools, instead teach kids the system is rigged against them and they will get screwed starting with the complete bore-fest that pris...school is. Then maybe they won't get so disillusioned later in life if we crush their foolish dreams early enough.

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Thinking a bit more about this, I realized that it is contradictory that Stack claimed to have been ruined by the IRS, but he owned a home and a plane... By lots of measures it seems like he was still doing alright.
That's what my wife and I were discussing last night. There is the possibility that his house was under threat of forclosure and his property would soon follow in repossession. We don't know for sure. From his rant it sounds more like he's approaching retirement age and every time he gets to the point he thinks he'll be able to finally enjoy retirement and his golden years, he'd have some tax problem erase his retirement. I mean for some people I can see the idea of having to work every day for the rest of your life being something to make them crazy.

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Thinking a bit more about this, I realized that it is contradictory that Stack claimed to have been ruined by the IRS, but he owned a home and a plane... By lots of measures it seems like he was still doing alright.
My father once shared a word of wisdom that applies here. He said "son, when people are angry they don't think rationally." Judging by his rant he had been carrying around a lot of hate directed toward a lot of people for so long that he wasn't thinking straight.

Bitter Thorn |

Sigil wrote:Thinking a bit more about this, I realized that it is contradictory that Stack claimed to have been ruined by the IRS, but he owned a home and a plane... By lots of measures it seems like he was still doing alright.My father once shared a word of wisdom that applies here. He said "son, when people are angry they don't think rationally." Judging by his rant he had been carrying around a lot of hate directed toward a lot of people for so long that he wasn't thinking straight.
It can be hard to keep things in perspective. While it seems likely that he got shafted hard by the system I really can't seem to wrap my head around the idea of leaving a wife and step daughter like that particularly if they were in the house when he torched it. I'm sure there are a lot of facts we don't have, and my contempt for the government is well established, but I think it's fair to say this guy had more damage than just being screwed by the IRS.
I had a close friend who had a sixteen year old daughter eat his gun, and while I believe we have the basic human right to end our own lives I just don't get leaving friends and family like that.
Regardless of what other issues he was having I doubt it will comfort Vernon Hunter's family.

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The real tragedy is that most Americans are not required to file or pay taxes. We all continue to do so out of a very rational fear of our government who will not hesitate to use force to destroy the lives of those who do not automatically submit to the conventional wisdom that their income is taxable.
For a more rational outline and critque of this fallacy I'd suggest