Wow.
That's what I said. I'm mixed about it. Of course, I don't care for his choice of action, but I won't lie that some of his frustrations resonate to me.
But one thing I will mention that there's obivously still holes/flaws in the system if this had been a terrorist attack...
But one thing I will mention that there's obivously still holes/flaws in the system if this had been a terrorist attack...
I am not a Rick Perry (current governor of Texas for you out of state folks) fan (nor detractor, to be honest), but I think he had a good point regarding that. It is a balancing act between personal freedom and safety. Should we ban all private planes? Would that have prevented this? Would it be worth it?
I can not say that I honestly know.
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The only way that something like this could be prevented is if we went back to the Cold War practice of having armed and manned fighters sitting on the tarmack ready to launch at a moments notice. Ad even then with a little flight time as he actually had, the more likey scenario would have been that a pair of Sidewinders followed him into the building.
I am not a Rick Perry (current governor of Texas for you out of state folks) fan (nor detractor, to be honest), but I think he had a good point regarding that. It is a balancing act between personal freedom and safety. Should we ban all private planes? Would that have prevented this? Would it be worth it?
I can not say that I honestly know.
I don't either. But I guess someone should have a heads-up when a flight plan is not announced. But I'm not an airplane pilot so I don't exactly know what the rules/laws are regarding that when planning to fly. I do know that I would be more than annoyed if I had to provide a driving plan when I take off in a car, though.
His act of suicide is making me rethink some of Emile Durkheim's theories.
But one thing I will mention that there's obivously still holes/flaws in the system if this had been a terrorist attack...I am not a Rick Perry (current governor of Texas for you out of state folks) fan (nor detractor, to be honest), but I think he had a good point regarding that. It is a balancing act between personal freedom and safety. Should we ban all private planes? Would that have prevented this? Would it be worth it?
I can not say that I honestly know.
Banning private planes? I don't think that would work, but its scary to think that a particularly wealthy individual who has a serious yen for planes might own the equivalent of a small private air force. I'd say David was on the right track, but he points out a serious flaw in his own theory as well.
You know, a flat tax would solve so many problems.
You know, a flat tax would solve so many problems.
Yeah, I remember when Steve Forbes was out there pushing this years ago. As long as we remain a capitalistic society, I don't see the flat tax happening anytime soon.
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I understand there is a major problem with the current tax system. But lets not forget this @$$hole tried to commit mass murder. There is no excuse for that. Sure your life may have been screwed and that is awful, but you do not under any circumstances have the right to go take the lives of innocents. I dislike the tax man as much as anyone else but the IRS is filled with people just doing there jobs they don't make the laws they just enforce them.
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Attempted mass murder, since only two people have died from what I hear. Semantics doesn't excuse anything of course, since even one death is too many. I wish people would stop lashing out at the wrong targets. Killing doesn't solve the problem but only distracts from it. A better use of his life would have been activism in Washington to get things changed. Obviously he didn't believe the same.
Actually, we're fortunate it wasn't mass murder. Only two people have been unaccounted for and one includes the pilot. Everyone else has gotten out alive - thank goodness.
But there is resentment growing from the proliteriat class from both the left and right sides toward government bureaucracy. I dread the day when more people take up arms in whatever fashion because their liberties have been trampled on and they feel as if they've ran out of options and walk down the path of self-martyrdom.
EDIT: Partially ninja'ed by TOZ.
A better use of his life would have been activism in Washington to get things changed. Obviously he didn't believe the same.
Which is harder to do when you've already lost $40k over the past ten years of your life and cannot channel such resources toward a lobbyist to grease a politican. I know it's a cynical point of view, unfortunately.
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A better use of his life would have been activism in Washington to get things changed. Obviously he didn't believe the same.Which is harder to do when you've already lost $40k over the past ten years of your life and cannot channel such resources toward a lobbyist to grease a politican. I know it's a cynical point of view, unfortunately.
No argument. However, I think he should have known better than to believe the IRS had given him a tax law loophole to not have to pay taxes in the first place. I may misunderstand that part of his letter however.
But there is resentment growing from the proliteriat class from both the left and right sides toward government bureaucracy. I dread the day when more people take up arms in whatever fashion because their liberties have been trampled on and they feel as if they've ran out of options and walk down the path of self-martyrdom.
No matter how angry at the government a movement like that is, it eventually leads to settling petty disputes that have nothing to do with the original revolution. Blood would flow like water as neighbors turn on each other for slights both real and imagined. I pray that it never, ever comes to that.
I'm a consultant myself -- but, guess what, I work for a legitimate engineering consulting firm. I might make less per hour, but I have an establshed tax structure and health care, and don't ever have to worry about all the crap that this guy intentionally set himself up for.
I personally have no problem paying taxes, because I approve of fire departments, paved roads, and national defense. This guy wanted to enjoy all those benefits without paying for them, but cloaked all that under catch-phrases like "It's MY money!" and "the government is taking away our freedom!" The scary thing is, that attitude is becoming widespread. I hear all those same things on a daily basis from a number of my acquaintances here in Texas -- I personally know guys who are stockpiling ammunition, and think they're Paul Revere or somebody when they rip off the IRS.
The next time someone tells you "It's MY money!" ask them when they're going to get to work repaving that pothole down the street.
But there is resentment growing from the proliteriat class from both the left and right sides toward government bureaucracy. I dread the day when more people take up arms in whatever fashion because their liberties have been trampled on and they feel as if they've ran out of options and walk down the path of self-martyrdom.No matter how angry at the government a movement like that is, it eventually leads to settling petty disputes that have nothing to do with the original revolution. Blood would flow like water as neighbors turn on each other for slights both real and imagined. I pray that it never, ever comes to that.
I can't think of a single organization that begun with one individual that has kept absolutely true to the founder's intentive ideology. All it takes is that one person that steps into an empty role and inject their own ideology and then things tend to go off course. Some as simple as a schism and some ... well ... all we need to do is look back in history.
I'm a consultant myself -- but, guess what, I work for a legitimate engineering consulting firm. I might make less per hour, but I have an establshed tax structure and health care, and don't ever have to worry about all the crap that this guy intentionally set himself up for.
I personally have no problem paying taxes, because I approve of fire departments, paved roads, and national defense. This guy wanted to enjoy all those benefits without paying for them, but cloaked all that under catch-phrases like "It's MY money!" and "the government is taking away our freedom!" The scary thing is, that attitude is becoming widespread. I hear all those same things on a daily basis from a number of my acquaintances here in Texas -- I personally know guys who are stockpiling ammunition, and think they're Paul Revere or somebody when they rip off the IRS.
The next time someone tells you "It's MY money!" ask them when they're going to get to work repaving that pothole down the street.
I was under the impression that the guy had taken a loss and thought that since his total for the year was in the negative that he didn't have to file. That was his own undoing. As most of us knows, regardless of how little you pay or if you're well under the poverty line, you still have to file. If your income was really that low or in the negative, the least that could happen is that you obtain some form of earned income credit. I wouldn't be surprised if he was ripped by less than reputable tax consultants despite whatever it is he may have believed otherwise. Nevertheless, it's unfortunate when any form of action ends up taking this path of no return.
Banning private planes? I don't think that would work, but its scary to think that a particularly wealthy individual who has a serious yen for planes might own the equivalent of a small private air force. I'd say David was on the right track, but he points out a serious flaw in his own theory as well.But one thing I will mention that there's obivously still holes/flaws in the system if this had been a terrorist attack...I am not a Rick Perry (current governor of Texas for you out of state folks) fan (nor detractor, to be honest), but I think he had a good point regarding that. It is a balancing act between personal freedom and safety. Should we ban all private planes? Would that have prevented this? Would it be worth it?
I can not say that I honestly know.
This a massive vulnerability that some of us have been pointing out for decades.
It doesn't take a lot of imagination to picture the results of a target that was chosen for maximum damage rather than a political statement. What if he'd flown into a refinery or a chemical plant or an IC fab with thousands of gallons of cryogenic hydrogen?
We have massive structural vulnerabilities that hundreds of billions of dollars of DHS spending haven't even started to address. Urban sprawl has hemmed in chemical plants, natural gas and LPG tank farms, and fabs. If many of these go up they are going to take a lot of homes or other businesses with them. Hazmat 1st response is entirely inadequate for the vast majority of cities and rural VFDs are usually even less prepared.
Basically it's dumb luck that he didn't pick a refinery.
But there is resentment growing from the proliteriat class from both the left and right sides toward government bureaucracy. I dread the day when more people take up arms in whatever fashion because their liberties have been trampled on and they feel as if they've ran out of options and walk down the path of self-martyrdom.No matter how angry at the government a movement like that is, it eventually leads to settling petty disputes that have nothing to do with the original revolution. Blood would flow like water as neighbors turn on each other for slights both real and imagined. I pray that it never, ever comes to that.
We've heard the same arguments about less restrictive concealed carry laws, but it hasn't come to pass.
But there is resentment growing from the proliteriat class from both the left and right sides toward government bureaucracy. I dread the day when more people take up arms in whatever fashion because their liberties have been trampled on and they feel as if they've ran out of options and walk down the path of self-martyrdom.No matter how angry at the government a movement like that is, it eventually leads to settling petty disputes that have nothing to do with the original revolution. Blood would flow like water as neighbors turn on each other for slights both real and imagined. I pray that it never, ever comes to that.We've heard the same arguments about less restrictive concealed carry laws, but it hasn't come to pass.
Actually I'm not talking about concealed carry stuff, but an actual, organized revolution akin to what Kirth alluded to.
Also, good to have you both in this thread. What you have said continues to be enlighting, despite(or perhaps, because of) our differing political views.
I'm a consultant myself -- but, guess what, I work for a legitimate engineering consulting firm. I might make less per hour, but I have an establshed tax structure and health care, and don't ever have to worry about all the crap that this guy intentionally set himself up for.
I personally have no problem paying taxes, because I approve of fire departments, paved roads, and national defense. This guy wanted to enjoy all those benefits without paying for them, but cloaked all that under catch-phrases like "It's MY money!" and "the government is taking away our freedom!" The scary thing is, that attitude is becoming widespread. I hear all those same things on a daily basis from a number of my acquaintances here in Texas -- I personally know guys who are stockpiling ammunition, and think they're Paul Revere or somebody when they rip off the IRS.
The next time someone tells you "It's MY money!" ask them when they're going to get to work repaving that pothole down the street.
How many Joe Stacks are out there? More than most people realize.
A lot of folks can't help but notice that the government gets the money and the potholes still don't get fixed. We pour money into DHS, social services, military adventurism, infrastructure, education, and regulation, and we can see that it isn't working out so well.
I'm a consultant myself -- but, guess what, I work for a legitimate engineering consulting firm. I might make less per hour, but I have an establshed tax structure and health care, and don't ever have to worry about all the crap that this guy intentionally set himself up for.
I personally have no problem paying taxes, because I approve of fire departments, paved roads, and national defense. This guy wanted to enjoy all those benefits without paying for them, but cloaked all that under catch-phrases like "It's MY money!" and "the government is taking away our freedom!" The scary thing is, that attitude is becoming widespread. I hear all those same things on a daily basis from a number of my acquaintances here in Texas -- I personally know guys who are stockpiling ammunition, and think they're Paul Revere or somebody when they rip off the IRS.
The next time someone tells you "It's MY money!" ask them when they're going to get to work repaving that pothole down the street.
Yeah, this guy was clearly doing well enough to afford a private plane, which puts him ahead of me. That lessens my sympathy for his reluctance to pay taxes. I feel for the guy, it looks like he got screwed over by his accountant, but .. correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of his first couple paragraphs essentially: "Big corporations get away with finding loopholes not to pay taxes, so why can't I use those loopholes?"
But there is resentment growing from the proliteriat class from both the left and right sides toward government bureaucracy. I dread the day when more people take up arms in whatever fashion because their liberties have been trampled on and they feel as if they've ran out of options and walk down the path of self-martyrdom.No matter how angry at the government a movement like that is, it eventually leads to settling petty disputes that have nothing to do with the original revolution. Blood would flow like water as neighbors turn on each other for slights both real and imagined. I pray that it never, ever comes to that.We've heard the same arguments about less restrictive concealed carry laws, but it hasn't come to pass.
Actually I'm not talking about concealed carry stuff, but an actual, organized revolution akin to what Kirth alluded to.
Also, good to have you both in this thread. What you have said continues to be enlighting, despite(or perhaps, because of) our differing political views.
Has anyone seen an article on the 2 fatalities? I'm under the impression that there were 2 besides Stack.
If the only fatalities were IRS auditors this guy could turn into something of a hero.
The fact that McViegh and Nicholes took out a day care center in Oklahoma City removed any sympathy the patriot/militia movement might have had let alone more main stream folks.
A lot of folks can't help but notice that the government gets the money and the potholes still don't get fixed. We pour money into DHS, social services, military adventurism, infrastructure, education, and regulation, and we can see that it isn't working out so well.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm one of those "folks." But I work to try and move the money to where it belongs -- through legal avenues and exercising of the right to vote on proposed amendments to the tax laws, for example. You don't see me ranting incoherently against "the government" in general (as opposed to the tax code), trying to get my hands on enough WMDs to give Saddam wet dreams (under the excuse of the 2nd amendment), and ultimately flying planes into buildings.
One of the reasons the American revolution was so successful is that they essentially had a new, functional government in place BEFORE they tried to overthrow the old one. The French Revolution turned out poorly because they failed in that crucial step. And those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Suicide Pilot Guy is a murderer. Note the period.
Want to send a message to the government about taxes? Don't vote for a single incumbent in the House of Represenatives this year. If everyone did that, the entire House would be gone in one election cycle.
That would scare the government more than some murderous crank flying a plane into a building.
Yeah, this guy was clearly doing well enough to afford a private plane, which puts him ahead of me. That lessens my sympathy for his reluctance to pay taxes. I feel for the guy, it looks like he got screwed over by his accountant, but .. correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of his first couple paragraphs essentially: "Big corporations get away with finding loopholes not to pay taxes, so why can't I use those loopholes?"I'm a consultant myself -- but, guess what, I work for a legitimate engineering consulting firm. I might make less per hour, but I have an establshed tax structure and health care, and don't ever have to worry about all the crap that this guy intentionally set himself up for.
I personally have no problem paying taxes, because I approve of fire departments, paved roads, and national defense. This guy wanted to enjoy all those benefits without paying for them, but cloaked all that under catch-phrases like "It's MY money!" and "the government is taking away our freedom!" The scary thing is, that attitude is becoming widespread. I hear all those same things on a daily basis from a number of my acquaintances here in Texas -- I personally know guys who are stockpiling ammunition, and think they're Paul Revere or somebody when they rip off the IRS.
The next time someone tells you "It's MY money!" ask them when they're going to get to work repaving that pothole down the street.
That's not what I read into it, but I may be projecting.
Regular folks who make a mistake negotiating the tax code often get crushed by the IRS.
Conversely someone like Gietner fails to pay ~$200,000 in taxes and he gets to be in charge of the IRS.
It seems a lot like having coke heads in charge of the war on drugs.
I think it's less about not wanting to pay taxes than the profound corruption of the system, but again I may be projecting my own thoughts into his writing.
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A lot of folks can't help but notice that the government gets the money and the potholes still don't get fixed. We pour money into DHS, social services, military adventurism, infrastructure, education, and regulation, and we can see that it isn't working out so well.
Not sure where you are, but I drive to work on a bridge that is having work done on it right now, My mother is on SS and medicare and her doctor gets paid, I went to public school and learned to read and write. Now it may be true that the pothole around the corner has been there forever, and I do end up getting screwed for working in state and living in another, paying double income tax but it is silly to say it isn't working. For all the complaining about taxes we do, it is those taxes that pay for the stuff we do everyday. The system has worked fine for a very long time. It isn't perfect, and sometimes people get screwed over, but what you get back is ALWAYS more than what you put in. Heck, if you have ever driven over a bridge, chances are that bridge cost more than you will EVER pay to the Govt in taxes. Right there you got more than you put in.
A lot of folks can't help but notice that the government gets the money and the potholes still don't get fixed. We pour money into DHS, social services, military adventurism, infrastructure, education, and regulation, and we can see that it isn't working out so well.Don't get me wrong -- I'm one of those "folks." But I work to try and move the money to where it belongs -- through legal avenues and exercising of the right to vote on proposed amendments to the tax laws, for example. You don't see me ranting incoherently against "the government" in general (as opposed to the tax code), trying to get my hands on enough WMDs to give Saddam wet dreams (under the excuse of the 2nd amendment), and ultimately flying planes into buildings.
One of the reasons the American revolution was so successful is that they essentially had a new, functional government in place BEFORE they tried to overthrow the old one. The French Revolution turned out poorly because they failed in that crucial step. And those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
I see a lot of truth in that, but I'm a minarchist as opposed to an anarchist.
Of course it can be tough to generalize with any accuracy regarding us strong anti government types. The patriot/militia movement has a lot of different mindsets within it. I've seen everything from anarchists, to hard core naturalist, to national socialist and Aryans, to minarchists, to end times religious types.
It's going to interesting to see how the mainstream media characterizes this. I'm sure we will hear about how this is somehow Glen Beck's fault or the tea party.
This manifesto is extremely dangerous, precisely because it is so reasonable. I severely condemn the act of murder suicide, but his motives are cogent. In the end, his conclusion doesn't seem like too great a leap, which scares the hell out of me.
I am very scared, because I can no longer imagine a good outcome. If the state of things in this country continue, we'll be facing totalitarianism or revolt. I sincerely hope that the internet and/or Canada can save us.
A lot of folks can't help but notice that the government gets the money and the potholes still don't get fixed. We pour money into DHS, social services, military adventurism, infrastructure, education, and regulation, and we can see that it isn't working out so well.Not sure where you are, but I drive to work on a bridge that is having work done on it right now, My mother is on SS and medicare and her doctor gets paid, I went to public school and learned to read and write. Now it may be true that the pothole around the corner has been there forever, and I do end up getting screwed for working in state and living in another, paying double income tax but it is silly to say it isn't working. For all the complaining about taxes we do, it is those taxes that pay for the stuff we do everyday. The system has worked fine for a very long time. It isn't perfect, and sometimes people get screwed over, but what you get back is ALWAYS more than what you put in. Heck, if you have ever driven over a bridge, chances are that bridge cost more than you will EVER pay to the Govt in taxes. Right there you got more than you put in.
We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the value and efficacy of government, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion. I had quite a bit to say about this in the what conservatives believe thread, but it probably merits its own topic.
One of the reasons the American revolution was so successful is that they essentially had a new, functional government in place BEFORE they tried to overthrow the old one. The French Revolution turned out poorly because they failed in that crucial step. And those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Good point. Scary point, for some.
This manifesto is extremely dangerous, precisely because it is so reasonable. I severely condemn the act of murder suicide, but his motives are cogent. In the end, his conclusion doesn't seem like too great a leap, which scares the hell out of me.
I am very scared, because I can no longer imagine a good outcome. If the state of things in this country continue, we'll be facing totalitarianism or revolt. I sincerely hope that the internet and/or Canada can save us.
Very few people want to come right out and say it, but a lot of folks privately applaud this guy.
The IRS building here in Colorado Springs has been set on fire a couple of times, but no one was killed or injured.
Contrary to what the media would have us believe, people who are deeply unhappy with the government are not limited to trailer parks and communes.
Very few people want to come right out and say it, but a lot of folks privately applaud this guy.
Those people are fools. Hot-headed idiots like this guy don't ever accomplish anything useful -- they shed blood just to be doing it. Contrast this guys' writings with those of Paine and Jefferson and Adams -- he's got more in common with the IRS than he does with real Americans.
Even the disaffected should condemn murder.
The victim was not responsible for Stacks' misfortune.
Those people are fools. Hot-headed idiots like this guy don't ever accomplish anything useful -- they shed blood just to be doing it. Compare Jefferson's and Adams' writings with this guy's, and the gap we're looking at is an immense abyss.
Thomas Jefferson is a bad example. He publicly applauded the terrorism and bloodshed of the Reign of Terror. That would put him with the same category as the fools you rightly decry.
Want to send a message to the government about taxes? Don't vote for a single incumbent in the House of Represenatives this year. If everyone did that, the entire House would be gone in one election cycle.
That would scare the government more than some murderous crank flying a plane into a building.
You know, you have a point here. I'm an Independent so I owe no allegiance to either party (although I tend to lean left of center). Now this would make an interesting movement...
EDIT: I'm going to FB your quote, if you don't mind.
This manifesto is extremely dangerous, precisely because it is so reasonable. I severely condemn the act of murder suicide, but his motives are cogent. In the end, his conclusion doesn't seem like too great a leap, which scares the hell out of me.
My emphasis BOLDED.
You hit the nail on the head when I first read it. I condemn his course of action, but it's not necessarily the ramblings of a madman. It is indeed cogent.
You know, you have a point here. I'm an Independent so I owe no allegiance to either party (although I tend to lean left of center). Now this would make an interesting movement...
And I am quite serious. Don't vote for any incumbents in 2010.
...but it's not necessarily the ramblings of a madman. It is indeed cogent.
Suicidal people often aren't madmen. They're disturbed, not crazy. And he is cogent, except for when he isn't. For example, anyone ranting about tax exemptions making the the Catholic Church wealthy is at the very least woefully ignorant.
Thomas Jefferson is a bad example. He publicly applauded the terrorism and bloodshed of the Reign of Terror. That would put him with the same category as the fools you rightly decry.
Oooh... good point there. I was thinking more of this pre-American revolution stuff, but you're correct about the Terror.
And I am quite serious. Don't vote for any incumbents in 2010.
You've got a deal.
Also, take your money out of big banks and put it in local ones. Credit unions, if you can.
Also, take your money out of big banks and put it in local ones. Credit unions, if you can.
Done. I've had an account with a local credit union since I was 12, which is 'round 'bout three decades at the rate I'm going.
:)