Role: Iron mages are warriors first and foremost, but they use magic to supplement their attacks and bolster defenses. Though individual specialties might vary, any iron mage is a stalwart ally in battle.
Starting Gold: 5d6x10.
Starting Age: As wizard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die / BAB: d10 / Full.
Good Saves: Fortitude, Will.
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Spell progression as Paladin/Ranger.
1st: Arcane initiate, prestidigitation, school focus, witching 1
2nd: School power, warding 1
3rd: Arcane mark, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
4th: Arcane conversion, read magic, weapon component
5th: Warding 2, witching 2
6th: Spell fluency
7th: School power
8th: Warding 3
9th: Spell fluency
10th: Witching 3
11th: School power, warding 4
12th: Spell fluency
13th: Greater warding
14th: Warding 5
15th: Spell fluency, witching 4
16th: Greater witching
17th: Warding 6
18th: Spell fluency
19th: School power
20th: Warding 7, witching 5
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Iron mages are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields). An iron mage does not incur the normal arcane spell failure chance from wearing light or medium armor, or from wearing a shield. Like any other arcane spellcaster, an iron mage wearing heavy armor incurs a chance of spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass iron mage still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Arcane Initiate: Though he pursues highly specialized techniques which slow his mastery of spellcasting, an iron mage studies the same craft as a wizard. He draws his spells from the sorcerer/wizard list and is considered to have full access to that list, granting him the ability to use spell completion and spell trigger items containing sorcerer/wizard spells of any level. In addition, he can treat his iron mage level as his caster level to use scrolls from his school of focus (see below).
Through focused study, an iron mage learns a number of spells by rote, treating them as spell-like abilities. All spell-like abilities granted by the iron mage class require the spell's normal components, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use these abilities in heavy armor.
Prestidigitation (Sp): An iron mage can use prestidigitation, the neophyte wizard's practice spell, at will.
School Focus: Every iron mage selects a primary school of arcane magic from which he draws the majority of his power. This choice is made at 1st level, and cannot be changed. He may choose Abjuration, Evocation, Necromancy or Transmutation, and his choice determines the effects of his witching and warding abilities. At 2nd, 7th, 11th and 19th levels the iron mage gains additional powers from his school of focus.
When casting a spell from his school of focus, the iron mage gains a +3 bonus to his caster level (see spells, below) and also gains the benefits of the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats, adding +2 to the DC of saving throws against such spells. These benefits also apply to spell-like abilities granted as iron mage school powers, but do not apply to spells or spell-like abilities not gained from the iron mage class.
Witching (Su): An iron mage imbues his weapons with magic, as if using the Arcane Strike feat. The damage bonus granted by this ability is equal to his witching rank, initially 1 and increasing by 1 every 5 iron mage levels. He does not need to spend the swift action required by Arcane Strike, instead gaining the benefit on every attack he makes.
In addition to this passive effect, the iron mage can further increase the potency of his attacks for a certain number of rounds each day. As a free action, he causes his weapons to gain a special enhancement determined by his school of focus. At 1st level an iron mage can activate his witching for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Intelligence modifier. At each level after 1st, he can activate his witching for 2 additional rounds per day. The total number of rounds of witching per day are renewed after resting for 8 hours; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Similar witching effects do not stack, regardless of the source.
Warding (Su): A 2nd level iron mage learns to weave magic into potent defenses. As long as he is conscious, he gains the rank 1 warding benefit from his school of focus. At 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, his warding improves by one rank. The iron mage may suppress or resume his warding as a free action.
Arcane Mark (Sp): A 3rd level iron mage can use arcane mark at will.
Craft Magic Arms and Armor: Iron mages gain Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a bonus feat at 3rd level, ignoring the normal caster level prerequisite. Iron mage level can be used in place of caster level for the purpose of satisfying prerequisites when crafting enhancement bonuses to armor and weapons.
Arcane Conversion (Su): As a free action, an iron mage can sacrifice a prepared spell to activate his witching, adding the sacrificed spell's level to his witching rank for one round. Using this ability does not count against the iron mage's normal rounds per day of witching. The sacrificed spell is expended as if it had been cast.
Read magic (Sp): At 4th level, an iron mage can use read magic at will.
Spells: Beginning at 4th level, an iron mage gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An iron mage must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
To learn, prepare or cast a spell, the iron mage must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an iron mage's spell is 10 + the spell level + the iron mage's Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, an iron mage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on (see Table: Paladin). In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score. When (see Table: Paladin) indicates that the iron mage gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence score for that spell level.
An iron mage may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the iron mage decides which spells to prepare.
Through 3rd level, an iron mage has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his iron mage level – 3. Because he receives a +3 bonus to caster level from his school focus ability, the iron mage effectively uses his class level as his caster level for spells of that school.
Spellbooks: An iron mage must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook. A character with levels in both iron mage and wizard can use a single spellbook, and does not need to keep track of which class a recorded spell belongs to.
Upon gaining 4th level the iron mage obtains a spellbook containing one 1st level spell from his focus school, and an additional number of 1st level spells equal to his Intelligence bonus, which can be of any school. At each new iron mage level, he gains one new spell of any spell level that he can cast (based on his new iron mage level) for his spellbook. At any time, an iron mage can also add spells found in other spellbooks to his own.
Weapon Component: The iron mage carefully refines his martial techniques in tandem with spellcasting, working them into a single cohesive discipline. When wielding a melee weapon with which he is proficient, he gains the benefit of the Eschew Materials feat and can use the weapon in place of any non-costly focus component. Additionally, he can perform somatic components using the weapon as if it were a free hand.
Spell fluency: To more effectively utilize them in combat, an iron mage practices certain spells until casting them is second nature. At 6th level, he chooses one spell he knows. From that point on, he can prepare this spell without referring to a spellbook and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when casting it. When cast (or otherwise expended, as through Arcane Conversion), this spell is treated as one level higher for all purposes. Finally, if he prepares it with metamagic, the iron mage subtracts 1 from the final level of the spell slot required to cast the modified spell. (This benefit does not apply to Heighten Spell, or to metamagic which doesn't increase the slot level required for a spell.) He gains this benefit again at 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th levels, choosing a different spell each time.
Greater Warding (Su): A 13th level iron mage gains an additional benefit from his warding, as dictated by his school of focus. He may suppress or resume this effect as a free action.
Greater Witching (Su): At 16th level, if an iron mage activates his witching and uses the standard attack action, he performs a greater witching which causes additional effects depending on his school of focus.
Abjuration
Your specialize in hindering the enemy's offense, whether physical or magical.
Witching: A creatures damaged by your attack suffers a penalty equal to your witching rank to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, CMB, and the DC of any saving throws caused by their spells or abilities. This penalty lasts for one round. Additionally, your weapons count as all alignments for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Greater Witching: A creature damaged by your attack finds itself pacified for one round. When so affected, it treats all other creatures as if they were protected by the sanctuary spell. The Will saving throw DC to overcome this protection is equal to 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier.
Warding: You gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to your warding rank.
Greater Warding: You gain spell resistance equal to your iron mage level + 12.
School powers:
- Dampening Field (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can emanate a 10-foot-radius aura of protective magic that lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Choose acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic; all creatures in the area gain resist energy 5 against that energy type. For every 2 additional iron mage levels you gain, the amount resisted increases by 5. Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- Unfettered (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a swift action, you can touch a creature to bestow the benefits of the freedom of movement spell for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Greater Dispel Magic (Sp): You can use greater dispel magic as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, twice per day at 15th level and three times per day at 19th level.
- Prismatic Sphere (Sp): You can use prismatic sphere as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level.
Evocation
Yours is the magic of raw energy and destruction, but also of controlled force.
Witching: Your weapons deal an extra 1d4 force damage per witching rank, and are considered to have the ghost touch enhancement.
Greater Witching: A wave of force follows your weapon, brutally impacting against any creature struck. This attack gains double your normal bonus damage from witching and Arcane Strike and grants you a free bull rush against the target with a circumstance bonus equal to your witching rank. If your bull rush is successful the target flies away from you and falls prone. Unlike a normal bull rush, you cannot follow your target. The target moves the full distance indicated by your bull rush result unless an obstacle prevents it, in which case it falls in the nearest square adjacent to that obstacle, and both your target and the obstacle take 1d6 points of damage.
Warding: A floating disk of force grants you a shield bonus to AC equal to your warding rank. This force shield also blocks all damage from magic missiles.
Greater Warding: Whenever you take damage from a physical attack, the impact triggers a burst of force which streaks back to the attacker, dealing damage equal to your warding rank. Any effect which absorbs or prevents damage from magic missile also affects your greater warding.
School powers:
- Barrier (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can create a wall of force (as the spell). This wall must be created within 30 feet of you, is limited to an area of one 5-foot square per two iron mage levels you possess, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- Spell Channeling (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a move action, you can imbue a weapon you are wielding with any evocation spell you have prepared which does not have a costly material or focus component. The spell is expended as if cast. The next successful attack made with that weapon delivers the spell's effects to the creature struck, allowing no saving throw or spell resistance. Regardless of the spell's normal targets or area of effect, only the creature or object struck is affected. If there is no meaningful way for the spell to affect the target, it is harmlessly discharged. If a successful attack is not made with that weapon within a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level, the imbued spell is lost. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Forceful Hand (Sp): You can use forceful hand as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, twice per day at 15th level and three times per day at 19th level.
- Meteor Swarm (Sp): You can use meteor swarm as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level.
Necromancy
You weave dire curses to confound your foes, and fortify your own body with negative energy.
Witching: A creatures damaged by your attack suffers a penalty equal to your witching rank to AC, CMD and saving throws. This penalty takes effect immediately after your current turn ends, and lasts for one round. Additionally, your weapons count as piercing, slashing and bludgeoning for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Greater Witching: A creature damaged by your attack suffers a severe curse of unluck for one round. Any time the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result.
Warding: You gain DR X/—, where X is your warding rank.
Greater Warding: You emanate an unnerving aura of necromantic energy. This aura causes creatures within 30 feet whose hit dice total no more than 1/2 your iron mage level to become shaken, with no save. As a free action you can momentarily increase the intensity of this aura, giving yourself a frightful presence. When you do, all opponents within 30 feet must succeed on a Will saving throw with DC equal to 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier, or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to your warding rank. Creatures already shaken by your aura become frightened instead. A successful save makes that creature immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours, though weaker creatures are still automatically shaken by your aura.
School powers:
- Stifle (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can cause a living creature within 30 feet of you to become fatigued for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). The target can negate this effect with a Fortitude save, DC = 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier. Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- False Flesh (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as an immediate action, you can gain temporary hit points equal to twice your iron mage level. This ability can be activated in time to absorb the damage from an incoming attack or spell. These temporary hit points vanish at the beginning of your next turn. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Eyebite (Sp): You can use eyebite as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, twice per day at 15th level and three times per day at 19th level.
- Energy Drain (Sp): You can use energy drain as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level.
Transmutation
Your subtle art manipulates time and space, providing various tactical advantages.
Witching: A creature damaged by your attack suffers a penalty to all of its movement speeds equal to 10 feet per witching rank you possess. This penalty lasts for one round, and cannot reduce a creature's movement to less than 5 feet. Additionally, you gain a bonus to attack rolls equal to your witching rank, and your weapons overcome any damage reduction which would be overcome by special materials (such as cold iron, silver or adamantine).
Greater Witching: A creature damaged by your attack becomes slowed for one round (as the slow spell). Your witching effect can reduce this creature's speed to 0.
Warding: You gain an enhancement bonus to natural armor equal to your warding rank.
Greater Warding: Your natural reach increases by 5 feet and you cannot be flanked.
School powers:
- Expedience (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can increase all of your movement speeds by 5 feet per 2 iron mage levels you possess. This is treated as an enhancement bonus, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- Distortion (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a move action, you can change the size of yourself or one creature within 30 feet of you, increasing or decreasing it by one size category. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. An unwilling creature is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw, DC = 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier. Except as noted above, this ability is equivalent to enlarge person or reduce person and does not stack with similar effects. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Disintegrate (Sp): You can use disintegrate as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, twice per day at 15th level and three times per day at 19th level.
- Etherealness (Sp): You can use etherealness as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level.
Huzzah for build #8!
I like the changes made, across the board - 'specially the amendment of int requirements on the spell-like abilities *sheepish*. Most of the others we discussed on the board for draft 7, so there's not a lot of need to rehash those conversations.
The wall of force evoker ability is really cool. It's much more interesting than straight damage, and has the sort of strategic utility like many of the other 2nd level abilities have. I can see why you're enthused about it.
That said, I'm *really* going to have to test it. The possibilities for it are almost too extensive - prevent flanking, block escape routes or entrances, trip up charge attempts... there are all manner of mean uses for it, especially when the average opponent doesn't know it's there until they run into it. A simple trapping to make the wall visible might be all the fix it wants... but I'll test it out first.
Other observations:
-The entry for arcane initiate should probably be amended to specify that the +3 caster level only applies to spells cast as an iron mage - you don't want specialist wizards dipping a level and jumping ahead in casting ability.
-Spell fluency is very slick. I assume it permits the preparation of spells whose normal level exceeds that of the iron mage's casting ability, but it might be good to specifically note it.
-Necromancy's witching is prone to locking an opponent into perpetually dropped AC/CMD against strikes from the iron mage. I know you talked about it earlier, but I can't remember if that was the deliberate choice you ended up making. Either way it's definitely the most brutal of the witching abilities, since the penalties it inflicts make maintaining those penalties (hitting) easier to sustain.
-I still feel sorry for the transmuter's capstone being etherealness instead of shapechange. Of the four schools, transmutation is most lacking in identity, and while I know that's kind of the point, it feels like they could do with something more... emblematic.
-Though it has nothing to do with balance, some of the abilities could do with a bit of flavor explanation. Your mechanics are solid, but it's not necessarily clear what is happening when the transmuter gets reach +5' and unflankability from their greater warding. Maybe you're reserving efforts on flavor text for the release version of the class, but if you aren't, I'd give it some thought.
make the wall visible
Gah, right, walls of force are invisible. Yeah, this version should be visible. Consider that official.
you don't want specialist wizards dipping a level and jumping ahead in casting ability.
"These benefits also apply to spell-like abilities granted as iron mage school powers, but do not apply to spells or spell-like abilities not gained from the iron mage class."
-Spell fluency is very slick. I assume it permits the preparation of spells whose normal level exceeds that of the iron mage's casting ability, but it might be good to specifically note it.
Only if they're metamagicked. If you take fluency with a 1st-level spell, you can Quicken it in a 4th-level slot. The save DC is also one higher than normal for any given spell. However, you could never cast a normally 5th-level spell.
It is intended to stack with Heighten, by the way... you could heighten a spell to 4th level, and fluency would still make it count as 5th when cast. That's why Heighten Spell is excluded from the cheaper metamagic... otherwise it would be double-dipping. Hope that's clear enough.
-Necromancy's witching is prone to locking an opponent into perpetually dropped AC/CMD against strikes from the iron mage.
This is intentional, and not quite as broken as it seems (though yes, it's good). Note that Transmutation gets the same bonus to hit, and doesn't lose it if you happen to miss one round, which gives it marginally higher personal damage output. Meanwhile, Evocation is the only witching which benefits from multiple hits on the same enemy, and has the best overall damage output because of that. They all compare rather nicely. Abjuration, of course, is its own special different thing. :)
transmuter's capstone
If only time stop were remotely useful to this class, eh? Shapechange really seems too good, though, and thematically I do feel that etherealness works better. It's not a flashy combat spell, but it has enormous utility. (Not to mention that he's already got disintegrate 3/day!)
reserving efforts on flavor text for the release version of the class
This. :)
-Necromancy's witching is prone to locking an opponent into perpetually dropped AC/CMD against strikes from the iron mage.
Y'know, it occurs to me that I should also point out how this compares to other classes.
If the necromancer steps on anyone's toes it's actually the bard, since he's also buffing everyone else's attacks against his target. But then, it's not like a party won't love having both. :)
"These benefits also apply to spell-like abilities granted as iron mage school powers, but do not apply to spells or spell-like abilities not gained from the iron mage class."
Haha, whoops, serves me right for not reading meticulously.
If only time stop were remotely useful to this class, eh? Shapechange really seems too good, though, and thematically I do feel that etherealness works better. It's not a flashy combat spell, but it has enormous utility. (Not to mention that he's already got disintegrate 3/day!)
It's a shame that dropping it down to a level 8 spell would mess with the steady pattern the abilities are supposed to take, because polymorph any object would be perfect. Maybe there'll be some totally sweet new level 9 transmutation spell in the APG.
Fighter: +5 to attack and +8 damage, between weapon training and exclusive feats. Beats every witching, period.
Barbarian: +4 to attack and +6 to damage (assuming 2-hander). About even with Evocation overall, better damage than Transmutation or Necromancy.
Ranger: weapon style feats are worth a lot, though I think the iron mage is still ahead by a bit. But against a favored enemy, the ranger just wins.
Paladin: see Ranger, adjust for appropriate class features. If the necromancer steps on anyone's toes it's actually the bard, since he's also buffing everyone else's attacks against his target. But then, it's not like a party won't love having both. :)
Oh, I don't imagine they would. I'm not worried about toes stepping, I just feel bad for that poor sucker the high-level necromancer nails for -6 to -10 to all defenses on the first round of combat. I mean, that's more or less a death sentence against a spellcasting party, never mind all the combat maneuver shenanigans they'll likely fall to. I see combats like:
1: Iron mage (lv 12) attacks, burns a level 3 spell slot. Foe takes -6 to defenses and ~20 damage.
2: Party rogue wiggles into flanking position, is able to hit with iterative attacks thanks to the diminished AC. ~20d6 damage.
3: Mage decides to show the others up and fires off a disintegrate. Good enemy saves at 12th level are +15, bad are +11... so if lucky, they're rolling +9 vs DC ~22 or eating 24 more d6s.
4: Having taken roughly 180 damage in a single round, monster prays for death.
Not saying that's bad or overpowered... just savage :)
Not saying that's bad or overpowered... just savage :)
Agreed! And it has to be, to keep up with the competition. :)
Just to underscore that it's not overpowered: you burned one 6th level wizard spell (he has 2), one 4th level iron mage spell (ditto); rogue probably has to move, so no iterative and you lose 35 damage: the CR 12 is still alive. Your fourth party member had better have some healing ability; best case for this scenario is a paladin, who can charge for a kill without using any consumable resources. Even then, the party has used 1/3 of its top-level magic (Paladin didn't cast), which means the challenge was roughly CR-appropriate. And that's a single-enemy fight, which are widely acknowledged to always be a little easier than they should, AND you let the party act first.
So, yeah... looks good to me. And thanks for making me think about it, by the way!
After a couple of sessions playtesting the evoker, I think the barrier ability is too good at low levels, but only very slightly. Abjuration and transmutation both got notably better with the addition of a duration. Still no solid playtest on necromancy, I'm willing to take a gamble and try a blanket solution... let's see what happens if the 2nd-level powers all cost 2 rounds of witching, instead of 1.
I tossed a necromancer IM at my party last night, but predictably enough, she went down before I got a solid read on her abilities. I will say that at level 6, 2 rounds of witching is not too much to pay for the swift fatigue ability.
Hello!
I really like the look of this class, I think that the flavour is awesome. However, I have a question for you: How would you handle an Iron Mage who wants to advance his spellcasting at the expense of his martial ability? The other way arouns is easy to implement - he simply takes fighter levels and gets the drawbacks as well as the benefits. Multiclassing with wizard would not be so easy, as the spell progressions do not stack. Do you have any idea how to address this discrepancy?
As I'm not sure whether Tejon is watching this end of the forums right now, I'll try and field this.
Advancing spellcasting with the hybrid classes has never been especially effective. Bard, paladin, and ranger all suffer from the same problem, stuck with spell progressions designed to remain well behind the full casting classes.
Asking how the Iron Mage becomes more gishy in the spellcasting end of things is much like asking how a paladin becomes more cleric-y. The base classes simply aren't designed to play well together that way, and the IM is based pretty clearly on their precedent.
That said, one might fairly easily design a class that gains full spellcaster advancement on alternating levels. Tejon's class here is a bit far developed for that treatment, but...
Dang, new project time.
at a quick glance I might to do 2 things
1. drop shields
2. give something big at 20the level like other PFRPG base classes
As I'm not sure whether Tejon is watching this end of the forums right now, I'll try and field this.
Been a bit busy, but I'm still here. :) Good summary on spellcasting; basically, there are already options for an arcane hybrid with stronger magic. Eldritch knight, bard, duskblade, warmage... the niche is covered. The missing option was a front-line bruiser, the sort who can replace a fighter or paladin.
That said: I'm totally flattered that you like the flavor enough to want it transplanted to a different role. :)
There is one way to push your iron mage a little closer to properly filling the wizard's role: scrolls and staffs. You technically have the entire wizard spell list, up to 9th level, and these items are why! You can't recharge high-level staffs, so this option is always going to be fairly expensive, but if the party has no access to a full wizard and is willing to chip in some cash to make up for it, you can get the job done.
at a quick glance I might to do 2 things
1. drop shields
2. give something big at 20the level like other PFRPG base classes
By shields, I assume you mean warding; that stays, it's important to make up for the medium armor restriction. And the greaters are fun. :)
Edit: Oh, or you might mean shield proficiency? No, this is more paladin than ranger; defense is a high priority. Duskblades (and to a lesser degree, eldritch knights) already cover the no-shield melee caster niche.
I'm working on what I hope will be the final draft, and if I can come up with a good capstone, I'll add one. However, I must point out that +1 Witching and +1 Warding is comparable to the barbarian's capstone, and the cleric doesn't even get one!
@ Tejon
I've been following this since draft 5 or so, although I don't think I ever gave my input. This is the custom class [edit] scrap custom, read non-core class [/edit] with the most potential that I have seen in a long time. It strikes a good balance and a indeed fills a niche that didn't existed/worked with multiclassing very well.
People will likely turn it down because of the paladin/ranger spell progression, which is too bad because I believe that your class can really stand its own ground a lot better than a bard-like build-up.
My only critique would be that when I look at the class, there are a lot of class features and very few of them are known/self-explanatory. Spell Fluidity, for example, is very similar yet not Spell Mastery. While I understand the need (many of your class features simply didn't exist before) it makes it hard to judge at first glance. While this does not take anything away from the class, it does works against you.
Also, I feel that something needs to be mentioned about cantrips, given that the paladin/ranger do not have 0 level spells but rather have a few of them folded as 1st level spells.
Speaking of the bard however, I'd be curious to see what you would have done with the bard if you had to re-build it from scratch as a sister class to this one...
kudo
'findel
Oh, or you might mean shield proficiency? No, this is more paladin than ranger; defense is a high priority. Duskblades (and to a lesser degree, eldritch knights) already cover the no-shield melee caster niche.
I meant sheild proficiency. From a practical standpoint I dont like a character holding a sword and a shield and casting a spell
I meant sheild proficiency. From a practical standpoint I dont like a character holding a sword and a shield and casting a spell
To be honest, I sympathize. In an early draft I toyed with ways to make keeping one hand empty a viable build option, but it really didn't work out well with the general direction of the class. As it stands, evokers have no need for a shield; other specializations might prefer a bow or 2-hander. But I think removing sword-and-board would hurt the class; at best, many players would just take Quick Draw and sheathe before casting. The spells just aren't strong enough to warrant an extra action tax.
Of course it's non-core anyway, so in your home game nothing prevents you from removing the real culprit, Weapon Component!
Wow I LIKE it... need to play test it just for the enjoyment of playing this!
Hehe, thanks. :) So you know, one thing that will definitely be getting another revision is the 2nd-level powers. I absolutely love evocation's barrier, but it was way too good to get 6-10 times a day at level 2, so I jacked up the cost. Instead of having different prices for different school powers, I'm buffing them all to match. Here are the current drafts:
Abjuration
- Dampening Field (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can create a 10-foot-radius zone of protective magic centered within 30 feet of you. Choose acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic; all creatures in the area gain resist energy 5 against that energy type. For every 2 additional iron mage levels you gain, the amount resisted increases by 5. The zone lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
Evocation
- Barrier (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can create a wall of force (as the spell) which shimmers visibly. This wall must be created within 30 feet of you, is limited to an area of one 5-foot square per two iron mage levels you possess, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
Necromancy
- Stifle (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer nonlethal damage equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. The target becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
Transmutation
- Expedience (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can grant supernatural swiftness to yourself or another creature within 30 feet. All of the target's movement speeds gain an enhancement bonus equal to 5 feet per 2 iron mage levels you possess, for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
I think Evocation's greater warding will also have a 30 foot maximum range.
Up from 2 rounds to 3, huh? Hmm... that's getting a bit pricey. It's a funny thing, because it makes different amounts of sense for the different schools. Evocation's wall defines the battlefield and abjuration trumps an energy-focused enemy, so they're both very effective as 'fire this once on round 1, then win the fight before the duration ends' abilities. On the other hand, necromancy's targeting means you're more likely to want multiple uses per fight, and transmutation's +speed utility is pretty darn marginal when compared to the others.
I think I preferred abjuration when it was just an emanation centered on you. I'd rather be consistently safe myself than have to track 'shielded' terrain when the fire elementals come calling. Covering buddies within 30 ft. is nice, but it's not worth giving up the ability to charge and keep your protection - especially when you're paying so many rounds of witching for it.
If you're keeping the 3 rounds of witching expense, I'd vote to give transmutation *at least* +5 ft./lvl to all movement types. That's splashy enough to be tempting in the right circumstances - like when you wanna show up the darn monk what keeps outrunning your horse. At level 20, you'll have guys breaking 100 mph for the 4-5 rounds the ability lasts. That's darn cool!
I'd just like to say that I really enjoy the idea/flavor of this class. I do have to agree with Maeloke on Transmutations speed bonus not looking as good as the other schools though. I don't know what you'd think about this but what about increasing any physical ability score by 1 point for every 4 or so Iron Mage levels? (I think 4 makes it a max of +5 at 20th level)
Torn on transmutation. 5' per level is a lot more than it seems. Everyone's kind of spoiled on Expeditious Retreat right now, but remember that this is a swift action and can target any allies, not to mention that it increases e.g. fly speed. 5' per 2 levels is only barely less than a monk gets, and the two effects stack if you've got both classes in the party! But on the other hand, yeah, it does feel a little light just in terms of the "wow!" factor. I'll have to think about that one.
Felgoroth, I considered attribute bonuses... problem is, +1 is useless half the time, 1 per 4 levels is slower improvement than the others get, and any faster scaling would just be broken. Plus, enhancement bonuses to attributes are too common, and any other kind of bonus is too good. Finally, I really don't want any of these powers to have options other than targeting at the time they're activated; both because they're swift actions and because the flavor is "learned by rote," I just don't think on-the-spot customization is fair.
For abjuration, how about if you can pick a creature or object (including yourself) to center the dampening field on? Fair for the cost increase, I think. The other consistent option would be a 30' radius, but I think that's too good.
Necromancy's a tough one. All of the powers have one level-scaling and one Int-scaling component, and I like that, but I'm also pretty much married to that fatigue effect. Though a saving throw scales with both level and Int, I don't think it properly counts, because the opponents' saves are rising too: you're not actually getting more bang for your buck. I'm not convinced it's too weak right now, but I'm also not fully satisfied with it. Another one I'll have to think about some more.
There's a reason I haven't actually posted a new draft, obviously. :)
On one hand, I'm inclined to argue that increased speed is one of the few aspects of Pathfinder that's difficult to abuse - a character pulling spring attack shenanigans with a move of 180 or whatever is only marginally more of a hassle than an archer or a wizard tossing middle-range spells.
On the other hand, I'm starting to think pushing up the 2nd level effects in power and cost might be the wrong direction to go. I like them as supplemental tactical options for each school, but when we're talking about massive speed bonuses and swift walls of force 10 squares long, they're becoming defining class features.
I guess mostly my issue is with the cost; 3 rounds of witching is a big chunk of daily power (3/~8) for your 2nd level iron mage, and rather than make the power seem *worth* that kind of expenditure, it might be better to tone it back down to 1-2 rounds of witching and adjust power levels down to suit. Remember, if they're cheap, a character can theoretically do them over and over and over - get your force wall 1-3 squares at a time, rather than the whole block of 10 at once. Also, if they're cheap and less battlefield-warping, characters will be inclined to use them as a matter of course, rather than waiting for the one fight when they're convinced they're essential for victory. A power characters feel like they have to hold back is a power that doesn't get used enough to be exciting.
I have visions of leapfrogging across a chasm with little force wall platforms, but that kind of thing doesn't seem reasonable when I need to be holding it in reserve.
The 3 rounds cost rapidly becomes negligible, IMO. It's the low-end balance that I'm concerned about; direct playtest experience has shown that even just one 5' force wall for 2 rounds can have some truly amazing effects on a battle at level 2 or 3.
But I really don't want to get rid of that wall. It's so damn cool. :) And 3 rounds feels like the point where at low levels, it's a serious tactical decision... not something you use just because you can, but definitely an option you'll consider.
Hm... Ya, you are right about the bonuses to an attribute. I do have to say I really like speed increases (I love playing fast characters) it's just like Maeloke and you have said though, it's just kind of like "wow." It really helps people with Vital Strike and Spring Attack though, or if you have a burrow speed it can be deadly. Imagine a character with a burrow speed digging a 70ft deep hole as a move action then holding an action (I can't remember if you can hold an action after moving or not).
Abjuration
- Dampening Field (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can emanate an aura of protective magic. Choose acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic; all creatures and objects within 10 feet of you gain resist energy 10 against that energy type. This aura lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus (minimum 2 rounds). At 11th level your dampening field grants resist energy 20, and at 20th level it grants energy immunity. Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
Evocation
- Barrier (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can create a wall of force (as the spell) which shimmers visibly. This wall must be created within 30 feet of you, is limited to an area of one 5-foot square, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). At 11th level you can increase your barrier to as much as a 10-foot square, and up to a 20-foot square at 20th level. At 20th level you can instead create a sphere of up to 10-foot radius; anything which would be trapped within the sphere when it is created can escape the area with a Reflex save, DC = 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier. Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
Necromancy
- Stifle (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer an amount of nonlethal damage equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), and become fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the total amount of nonlethal damage it has currently sustained. A successful Fortitude save (DC = 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier) negates the fatigue. At 11th level a creature you stifle is exhausted for the duration if it fails its save, and fatigued otherwise. At 20th level your target is exhausted with no saving throw, and remains fatigued when the duration ends. Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
Transmutation
- Expedience (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can grant supernatural mobility to yourself or another creature within 30 feet. Choose burrow, climb, fly, swim or base movement. The target gains an enhancement bonus of +10 feet to that movement type, or +20 feet if base movement is selected. If the target does not already possess the chosen movement type, it is gained for the duration with a speed of 0, to which the enhancement bonus is added. Flight gained in this way otherwise functions as the fly spell, except that no additional bonus to Fly checks is granted. Expedience lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). At 11th level the enhancement bonus increases to +20 feet, or +40 feet for base movement. At 20th level you no longer select a specific movement type: a creature granted your expedience gains +60 feet to base movement and +30 feet to burrow, climb, fly and swim, gaining any of those movement types which it does not possess. Using this ability counts as using 3 rounds of witching.
Any precision on 0-level spells? As I was saying in my previous post, the class in the odd position to have 0-level spells on its spell list but no 0-level spell slots to cast them.
Use 1st level spell slot for 0-level spell? Also, would the Iron Mage automatically know all 0-level spells like the wizard?
'findel
Regarding 0-level spells: basically, you can always substitute a lower-level spell. I'm not sure if this is spelled out anywhere in the PFRPG core, but it's traditional and I'm sure all the folks at Paizo would allow it. :) So while the iron mage does not automatically learn any 0-level spells, you could learn one spell in place of one of your other spells (or from a scroll or wizard's spellbook), and you can cast one with a 1st-level (or higher) slot. Whether this is ever a good idea is another question, but it's allowed.
The 20th level Stifle leaves non-magical fatigue, cured by 8 hours of rest or appropriate magic.
Thinking about removing flight from Expedience, for a few reasons.
Pretty sure I'm going to change the 7th-level school powers to cost 5 rounds of witching, rather than having their own daily pool.
Maeloke - didn't catch this earlier, but I should point out that your stepping-tiles scenario actually doesn't work; walls of force must be vertical. Agreed it would be pretty cool... way too cool, really. :) On that same subject, I'll probably rephrase the 20th-level barrier to "four contiguous 10-foot squares," as that's how the base spell works.
Still uncertain whether to add some other token capstone. The school power upgrades are pretty solid, but it's nice to actually see something in the class table.
I like Expedience a lot now. I need to figure out how to get a 20-30ft burrow speed without using that ability so I can dig a 100-120ft hole as a full-round action and just watch people fall in... Now that I write that I suppose I'd probably take damage from them falling on me... Hm... :/
Regarding 0-level spells: basically, you can always substitute a lower-level spell. I'm not sure if this is spelled out anywhere in the PFRPG core, but it's traditional and I'm sure all the folks at Paizo would allow it...
Yes, I'm *pretty sure* you can fill a spell slot with a lower level spell by RaW (in this case use a 1st level spell slot to cast a 0-level spell). However, the class is not granted a lot of spell slots, which is Ok (part of the concept), only it makes those slots rather precious...
Of those 0-level spells, prestidigitation, arcane mark and read magic are taken care of. The Iron Mage has better things to do than cast ray of frost, acid splash and disrupt undead, which in all reality, leaves only a few spells...
My suggestions would be:
- Grant automatic knowledge of all 0-level spells like a wizard (make it part of the Arcane Initiate feature) and have the I-M cast them as 1st level spells, or
- Grant automatic knowledge of all 0-level spells from the the I-M chosen school and have the I-M cast them as 1st level spells, or
- Grant two or three more 0-level spells throughout the class' progression as spell-like abilities 1/day (thinking of light, mage hand, open/close especially)
Hrmmm... I like the new versions for power level distribution, but I mourn the loss of the clean, short, original versions. I have this feeling you've gotten dragged into piling on the power and complexity for all the schools because you're married to evocation's darn wall of force. We all know it's circumstantially good, but the resulting amendments to the whole cycle are kind of getting out of hand.
5 rounds of witching for the level 7 abilities is... no good. I know you're looking at the witching pool as this huge thing that the IM can just burn away, but there isn't actually that much, and the core classes who gain this sort of pool - barbarian and bard - don't have *any* abilities that cost them rounds of rage or performance. By charging witching, all you do is open the door for characters going nova and burning a whole day's worth of power in the space of two rounds - and they won't be impressive rounds, because the powers *aren't* really potent, just expensive.
Feats that burn rounds of witching would be a different matter.
I dunno. I think it just damages the playability of the class to force them to burn the candle at both ends in order to use low-to-moderately powerful abilities that should simply be character-defining. Imagine making a dragon bloodline sorcerer burn spell levels in order to activate his claws, for instance.
Abjuration: Who's to stop you from saying *this* wall of force can be horizontal? What harm does it cause (that you're not already courting with your other abilities, at least)? That stipulation has always been obnoxious, especially for those of us who spend our time on planes with no official 'up'. And chasm hopscotch would be sooo cool!
Necromancy: It doesn't feel like its worth 3 rounds of witching to fatigue an enemy if they get a save. On the other hand, level 20 necromancy is crippling like no other. Exhaustion with no save is brutal and a worthy capstone.
Transmutation: New expedience is, um... suddenly very good. It puts you in a hard position, because while you have to have the fly speed to be consistent with your theme, Paizo designs adventures with the expectation that characters don't fly before 5th level. Perhaps you could open up climb and swim at level 2, and then allow burrow and fly at level 11?
All: I like that you've finally found a place to put in capstone abilities :)
(thinking of light, mage hand, open/close especially)
Agreed that these are the big ones, also mending. That's mostly transmutation; the poor school balance of 0-level spells is why I didn't give "all within your focus school" in the first place. What if I add, "In place of any 1st-level spell, you can learn 2 0-level spells at 1st level."
Hrmmm... I like the new versions for power level distribution, but I mourn the loss of the clean, short, original versions. I have this feeling you've gotten dragged into piling on the power and complexity for all the schools because you're married to evocation's darn wall of force. We all know it's circumstantially good, but the resulting amendments to the whole cycle are kind of getting out of hand.
On the one hand, yeah, this has caused some pretty big changes. On the other hand, the 2nd-level school powers are now generally far more similar in structure to powers granted by domains, bloodlines and wizard schools. I liked the smooth scaling for is simplicity and succinctness, but it was also constricting and rather bland. Doing it this what is what allows the capstones, and I rather like that. Sometimes the cycle is worth breaking!
5 rounds of witching for the level 7 abilities is... no good.
You might actually be right, but IMO not for any of the reasons you're giving. ;) The pool really is pretty damn big at high levels. Four 4-round combats with witching activated every round, PLUS the existing 5 uses per day of the 7th level power at 5 rounds each, still leaves 1 point in the pool at level 20, and that's if your Int is less than 12 and you didn't take Extra Witching (6 rounds!). I'm not especially worried about nova issues; that hurts as much as it helps, and isn't nearly as attractive a nuisance here as it is for a psion. All of these abilities have times when they AREN'T useful.
That said, upon reflection the nigh-unlimited pool could be seen as a perk of high levels, and nearly all of the 2nd-level powers have out-of-combat utility which I don't want to discourage. (Necromancy being the primary exception, and if anything convinces me to fiddle with it more, it will be this!) Also, I like your idea of using feats to provide extra pool-draining utility better than baking it into the class. I'll leave the 7th-level powers at fixed uses per day.
Evocation: Who's to stop you from saying *this* wall of force can be horizontal? What harm does it cause (that you're not already courting with your other abilities, at least)? That stipulation has always been obnoxious, especially for those of us who spend our time on planes with no official 'up'. And chasm hopscotch would be sooo cool!
Thing is, I know the exact reason for that stipulation. "I ready an action to create a wall of force when the bulette charges. It will be horizontal. It's infinitely thin, so that should slice it in half, right?" Mind you, I'm not entirely pleased with this either. But yeah. :P
Necromancy: It doesn't feel like its worth 3 rounds of witching to fatigue an enemy if they get a save. On the other hand, level 20 necromancy is crippling like no other. Exhaustion with no save is brutal and a worthy capstone.
Note that the nonlethal damage has no save. And really, fatigue is pretty solid... it's basically -1 attack, -1 damage, -1 AC in the vast majority of cases. This is significantly better than touch of fatigue in that it has both range and no attack roll. I'll admit that this is another of those things I'm turning somersaults to fit in properly; necromancy gets shaken (aura) and sickened (eyebite) as features, fatigued makes the trifecta. :) Current implementation is not set in stone, though, and as mentioned above, it's kind of a bummer that this is the only one with zero non-combat utility. But conversely, yeah, that's a killer capstone!
Transmutation: New expedience is, um... suddenly very good. It puts you in a hard position, because while you have to have the fly speed to be consistent with your theme, Paizo designs adventures with the expectation that characters don't fly before 5th level. Perhaps you could open up climb and swim at level 2, and then allow burrow and fly at level 11?
With only a 10' speed, a scroll of levitation can give roughly the same utility at level 1. My biggest problem with fly is that it obviates climb, which IMO is a cooler thing to do. :) Perhaps burrow and fly can be halved again, to 5 feet initially? Even longer text block, but arguably a better implementation. 11th level is too late, IMO.
(thinking of light, mage hand, open/close especially)Agreed that these are the big ones, also mending. That's mostly transmutation; the poor school balance of 0-level spells is why I didn't give "all within your focus school" in the first place. What if I add, "In place of any 1st-level spell, you can learn 2 0-level spells at 1st level."
That'd be a bit awkward, I don't see why an I-M would have a 2-for-1 deal but not a full wizard (or sorcerer since the Wizard gets all cantrips for free...)
After some consideration, I'd suggest adding light and mage hand along prestidigitation as at-will spell-like abilities at 1st level. Performing tricks, making things move and illuminating the room seems like the basics of spellcasting to me. The rest (like mending and open/close) would be nice but are perhaps a bit too 'advanced' for the neophyte I-M. Read magic would be considered basic too, but I like the fluff that the I-M can cast spells from the moment he masters the proper technique to read magical scriptures...
The lack of read magic also means that scrolls are not really available before level 4. Adding 2 more cantrips at 1st level would go a long way to 'magic-ify' the I-M a bit without overdoing it.
IMO, your take on giving the I-M spell-like abilities at 1st level to 'cheat' on their inability to actually cast spell was the right way to go. Again IMO, prestidigitation by itself is not quite enough to get the 'dabbler of magic' feel, but all cantrips would be over the top. 3 of them sounds right to me. In other words, like a 1st level wizard, but without the ability to change the cantrip selection and without the 1st level spell.
As for other cantrips, have the I-M learn them as 1st level spells, a bit like Rangers and Paladins do. Specify that somewhere as for the moment, the class is silent on this matter.
...or just don't change a thing. It's a rather minor irk...
Another rather minor irk...
The class is called Iron-Mage but they are described as warriors first and foremost.
There's a bit of a clash that does not portray the class's intention at first glance.
...not that Duskblade has a better descriptor...
As I was posting earlier in the thread, did you ever consider re-building the bard as a sister class to the Iron-Mage?
I don't mean rebuilding the bard along the same lines of ranger/paladin (as the bard is closer to the thief/mage than the fighter/mage), but to make an illusion specialized bard, divination specialized bard, enchantment specialized bard and conjuration specialized bard?
Good point about read magic being necessary for scrolls, I had totally forgotten about that. I'll move that to first level, as the ability to use wizard scrolls is essential to feeling "magicky" before 4th level.
Regarding cantrips in general, I'll put some more thought into them. From my perspective they don't generally fit the class, but there have been a lot of counterarguments. The class already gets three (which IMO are thematically essential) and one more is as many as a wizard can memorize!
How about: move arcane mark down to 2nd level, and read magic to 1st. Keep prestidigitation. At 3rd level, pick one 0-level spell to learn as a spell-like ability at will. You now have 4 at-will cantrips, just like a wizard; but the first three are your training wheels. At 4th level you learn the rest of the cantrips, but must prepare them in your spell slots.
The class is called Iron-Mage but they are described as warriors first and foremost.
The class is called Iron-Mage. ;) But yeah, I'll be revising the Role: line and adding a full description after the crunch is finalized.
Regarding the bard: perhaps I could be convinced, but that's definitely a project for the future.
Hm... welp, you're right about the force field having unpleasant side effects. In the interests of awesomeness, I'd be for amending the ability to read: You create a luminous block of force of dimensions 5' by 5' by 4". It can be placed in any position within 30 feet with any orientation you please. It otherwise behaves as a wall of force and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your intelligence modifier.
My point about necromancy isn't that fatigue is underpowered - it isn't. What's underpowered is allowing a save against a low-power ability like fatigue. Especially right now, when you're charging a whole fight's worth of witching for that -1 to attack and AC, for enemies to have a good chance to ignore it is decidedly unappealing.
I think we feel the same about necromancy - as things stand, the ability just isn't as interesting or versatile as the other disciplines in the cycle. The nonlethal damage makes it somewhat attractive from a straight combat perspective, but it's still very dull, and I'm trying to come up with something cooler with some non-combat utility.
Although the fatigue bit is appropriate and aggressive, how would you feel about a more defensive ability? Something like:
Mantle of the Grave (Su): As a swift action, the iron mage can cloak himself in necromantic power. He gains immunity to death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning for a number of rounds equal to his intelligence modifier. At 11th level, this ability also grants immunity to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain. At 20th level, this ability grants immunity to any effect that would require a fortitude save, unless it would also effect objects, and he counts as both living and undead (whichever is most favorable) when exposed to magical effects that target one differently (such as inflict spells). Using this ability costs 3 rounds of witching.
Scroll of levitate is a far cry from proper flight, Tejon :). I don't think dropping the speed is really the solution you're looking for; the point is that a 60' chasm is supposed to be an obstacle until level 5, and a fly speed is going to eliminate that. Anyhow, a very brief fly speed of 10 or 15 isn't splashy or fun at all.
I still think a bonus/access to more mundane travel speeds (base, climb, swim) is perfectly acceptable until level 11. A swift climb speed of 30 would be phenomenally handy in all sorts of fights.
You create a luminous block of force of dimensions 5' by 5' by 4". It can be placed in any position within 30 feet with any orientation you please. It otherwise behaves as a wall of force and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your intelligence modifier.
I might do something like that, yeah. Probably just 1"... don't want to replace "I behead the bulette" with "I trap the pixie inside." :)
Although the fatigue bit is appropriate and aggressive, how would you feel about a more defensive ability?
What you posted sounds dreadfully overpowered. :) Something defensive could probably work, though... thing is, it runs into the same issue of providing no out-of-combat utility. Abjuration lets you run through a burning building, evocation lets you hold back a flood or (with the proposed change) hopscotch a chasm, transmutation can get nearly anywhere... necromancy just hurts people. It's functional, but not really fun. Hell, even in combat it's not half as fun as the others. Tactical utility, that's what I need to be considering. Hmm.
Good point about read magic being necessary for scrolls, I had totally forgotten about that.
It's not necessary, one can pre-read the scroll with Spellcraft. Read Magic just makes it easier.
As I said, I like the fact that the I-M can cast spells on his own from the moment he masters the ability to read magic (at level 4th).
You are right about the fact that the I-M shouldn't get more cantrips as spell-like abilities than the Wizard gets 0-level spells slots. I'll give more thoughts about this...
'findel
What you posted sounds dreadfully overpowered. :) Something defensive could probably work, though... thing is, it runs into the same issue of providing no out-of-combat utility. Abjuration lets you run through a burning building, evocation lets you hold back a flood or (with the proposed change) hopscotch a chasm, transmutation can get nearly anywhere... necromancy just hurts people. It's functional, but not really fun. Hell, even in combat it's not half as fun as the others. Tactical utility, that's what I need to be considering. Hmm.
Yep, I know it's a bit overpowered - it's a proof-of-concept, rather than a balanced ability. I listed off the full-spectrum of immunities because, well, it's supposed to be useful. At lower levels, odds are you won't really care about them except poison and maybe stunning. At higher levels, you're getting a very brief death ward effect, and that's only ever really useful against undead and, well, other necromancers.
Anyhow, I'd generally say the acquisition of undead traits is pretty fair, if you think of it paralleling abjuration's ability to occasionally nullify an attack type used by foes. It still lacks out-of-combat utility, of course.
I was and am trying to think of a way to use undead's lack of breath, sleep, and food, but unfortunately that stuff's relevant over minutes or hours, rather than rounds.
Ooh, okay, this is probably a bit wacky, but I think it'd be a lot of fun:
Deathless (Su): As a swift action, the iron mage can separate his soul from his body for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his intelligence modifier. While the effect lasts, the iron mage cannot die from hit point damage or death effects. If either effect would kill him, his body becomes a corpse until the end of the effect, at which point he returns to life with 0 hp. More than 75% of his body needs to be intact for this ability to work.
Combat uses are obvious. Noncombat uses: go down that cliff the *hard* way! Survive your own execution! Terrify children at birthday parties!
I think I stand by my suggestion.
Give the I-M prestidigitation, light and mage hand as spell-like abilities usable at will at 1st level. Fold it into the Arcane Initiate to save space in the description if necessary.
Keep arcane mark at 3rd level. Its thematically fitting.
Keep read magic at 4th level. Since the I-M has a casting level of 0 until then, casting from scroll is already an iffy business anyway. The scroll can still be identified via spellcraft.
The exception is within the I-M chosen school, where the I-M threats his level uses his as his caster level to use scrolls from his school of focus. A similar clause could allow him to automatically succeed his spellcraft check to identify a scroll from his school of focus?
So yes, this gives the I-M a total of five virtual 0-level spell slots by 4th level, which is, one more than the true wizard. However, Wizards all have a special ability that stands somewhere between the 0-level spell and a 1st level spell (Hand of the Apprentice from the Universalist Wizard for example).
It also means that the I-M must spend a (somewhat precious) 1st-level slot to cast detect magic. I don't have a problem with this, but I know the poor I-M is going to be teased by his mates (what, you can create light, move things with your mind, get all the chics with your magic tricks but you can't tell if this item is magical?).
Which brings me to proposition #2:
1st level - prestidigitation
2nd level - detect magic
3rd level - arcane mark
4th level - read magic
the rest as 1st level spell.
'findel
@Maeloke - to be honest, I want to shy away from the "necromancy = undead" trope. I much prefer it as the general manipulation of life essences. (I still think it's a travesty that the cure spells were moved to Conjuration!) But I suppose nothing's off the table just yet...
@Laurefindel - you're picking out a few of your favorite cantrips, but they're not everyone's favorites. A dwarf or orc has no need for light. I'm not sure I've cast open/close with any character, ever. On top of that, really, there needs to be a sense that you're giving something up... cantrips are one of the coolest things a wizard has at low levels, and the iron mage shouldn't make the wizard jealous by getting all the perks and a breastplate too.
Prestidigitation is the practice spell. This is how you learn to cast like a wizard. If this class gets any cantrips, this one is thematically essential.
Using scrolls at low levels is intended to be a functional ability, not a crapshoot. Yeah, there's a caster level check... but for a 1st-level spell, you only fail on a 1. The DC for identifying the scroll with spellcraft is 20+, very likely to fail. The way I read the scroll rules, you can't use one until you have personally deciphered it, regardless of whether you already know what spell it contains. Because of this, I think read magic is essential at 1st level too.
Arcane mark is the other 0-level spell in the Universal school, and is thematically appropriate for a few different reasons. Definitely a keeper. It came at 3rd level to complement the crafting feat, but I like the idea of moving it down to 2nd; 3rd is a better place for a "pick any 1" spell-like cantrip feature, which I'm 99% certain will be what I go with if I don't just leave it at the first three.
And that's as many cantrips as wizard gets; and again, I don't want the wizards to be jealous! Three of them, you don't get to choose yourself. That's the only reason I think 4 is fair at all. Now, consider that these are spell-like abilities: that means they are still and silent. This really struck home last night when my player testing the evoker said, "I think I'm going to take ghost sound." No way I'm giving out more than one such ability, or giving it before 3rd level. ;)
Regarding detect magic, by the way: the only reason you'd ever memorize that is if you don't know identify... which on the other hand, means that you won't feel compelled to learn identify. Giving the cantrips for free, even with no dedicated slots, is a meaningful perk.
ummmm can you post an update to this that has all of the changes... gets hard to track them. I am looking at trying this out at 10th level. I was getting confused as to what stayed the same and what changed. :)
Not as much as it looks like. Mostly a bunch of alternate propositions for the same few abilities, and I'm hoping to get them nailed down before I do a proper full update. :) Which school are you planning to try out?
@Maeloke - to be honest, I want to shy away from the "necromancy = undead" trope. I much prefer it as the general manipulation of life essences. (I still think it's a travesty that the cure spells were moved to Conjuration!) But I suppose nothing's off the table just yet...
Fair enough, necromancy = undead is more than a bit overdone.
But what about that deathless idea? You can't tell me that's not pretty cool. While it's undead-type behavior, its not really an undead ability. It feels necromantic, and it gets you away from the necromancy = afflictions scheme. Frankly, the necromancer already leans pretty heavily on the status ailment thing, and it'd be nice to get some diversity in there.
I guess if the idea doesn't seem as awesome to you as it does to me, that's fine. I'll be more than happy to use it in one of my own creations :D
@Laurefindel - you're picking out a few of your favorite cantrips, but they're not everyone's favorites (...) and the iron mage shouldn't make the wizard jealous by getting all the perks and a breastplate too.
Fair point.
I agree that prestidigitation, arcane mark and read magic should be keepers. My argument was about the I-M getting more than those three, but that be gravy that perhaps the I-M doesn't need.
Using scrolls at low levels is intended to be a functional ability, not a crapshoot. Yeah, there's a caster level check... but for a 1st-level spell, you only fail on a 1. The DC for identifying the scroll with spellcraft is 20+, very likely to fail.
Good point. His chances of success really become considerable at level 4th, at which point it becomes a moot point in the present iteration.
3rd is a better place for a "pick any 1" spell-like cantrip feature, which I'm 99% certain will be what I go with if I don't just leave it at the first three.
Perhaps I insisted a bit much on cantrips. The I-M has a lot of choices and options already; don't muddy the class with this small detail. When I'm down to argue which cantrip a base class should get, that's because I feel the class is rather solid in the first place...
(Happy birthday to me!)
Heh, happy birthday. Have a good one :D