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The idea for this feat tree popped into my head while I was working on a series of drawing feats based off of the Quick Draw feat HERE.
I began thinking more about the anime Rurouni Kenshin and the fighting style of the main character Kenshin, I thought it would also be nice to have a series of feats that add extra damage to a drawing style attack.
On to the feats...
You have studied the art of quickly drawing your sword, attacking, and then sheathing your sword all in a smooth motion.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw
Benefits: As a attack action you may draw and make a single attack with a sword and return it to its sheath after the attack without provoking attacks of opportunity. If you have a sheathed sword on your person (not hidden or in a container) you are treated as wielding and threatening the squares around you with that weapon as if you had it in hand.
You have learned to used the increased speed of your draw to deal greater damage.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Battojutsu Training
Benefits: When you use your Battojutsu Training to attack a foe you may add your dexterity modifier to damage.
You have increased your speed and learned how to strike multiple foes with your Battojutsu Training.
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Quick Draw, Battojutsu Training, Battojutsu Strike
Benefits: When attacking with your Battojutsu Training you may now make as many attacks as you are able before returning your sword to its sheath. Additionally, when making only a single strike you may add 1 1/2 your dexterity modifier to damage.
(So what does everyone think? Too powerful? Too Weak? Just right?)
It may be old habits, but I'm always leery of letting Dex apply to damage in any circumstances. A damage die bonus, or even a flat bonus like specialization, would feel better than applying what normally passes for coordination and agility. Swapping it out for 1d6 precision (or momentum) damage (change to 2d6 at GBS) would sit a lot better.
Also, for completeness' sake, might want to comment on combinations like Vital Strike, or the fact that Greater Battojutsu Strike's use is not letting you get a full attack action in Battojutsu Training's single attack action.
Otherwise, sounds stylish.
It may be old habits, but I'm always leery of letting Dex apply to damage in any circumstances. A damage die bonus, or even a flat bonus like specialization, would feel better than applying what normally passes for coordination and agility. Swapping it out for 1d6 precision (or momentum) damage (change to 2d6 at GBS) would sit a lot better.
Also, for completeness' sake, might want to comment on combinations like Vital Strike, or the fact that Greater Battojutsu Strike's use is not letting you get a full attack action in Battojutsu Training's single attack action.
Otherwise, sounds stylish.
Some interesting points...
The idea behind using dex modifier for damage is that dexterity is often compared with speed. The idea being that the faster you can draw the greater extra damage you can add.
Because of the relatively high feat tax... I do not have a problem with combining vital strike and the like. However that is a personal choose and each DM's millage may vary.
Its a good point on clarifying about GBS required action. I'll need to do a revision stating that you can now use Battojutsu Training during a Full round action instead of just a single attack.
I wanted to leave Battojutsu Training fairly open so that you could combine it with feats like Cleave. The reasoning behind this is that Cleave is supposed to be a single attack that hits two opponents and thus would not go against the original idea.
Ok...
I have worked out a revision to the feats that I'm feeling satisfied with for the moment. Included wording to clarify full attacks and the like in Greater Battojutsu strike. Also added in special rules for each feat to clarify combining. I also decided to limit the weapons that Battojutsu Training may be used with. I feel all these weapons fit the theme I'm going for. As always I appreciate constructive suggestions. As it is... I do not think the feats over powered... but I'm worried they seem so weak that nobody would take them.
You have studied the art of quickly drawing your sword, attacking, and then sheathing your sword all in a smooth motion.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw
Benefits: As a attack action you may draw and make a single attack with a sword and return it to its sheath after the attack without provoking attacks of opportunity. If you have a sheathed sword on your person (not hidden or in a container) you are treated as wielding and threatening the squares around you with that weapon as if you had it in hand. Battojutsu Training may only be used once per round.
Special: BattoJutsu Training may only be used with a Dagger, Short Sword, Long Sword, or Bastard Sword.
You have learned to use the increased speed of your draw to deal greater damage.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Battojutsu Training
Benefits: When you use your Battojutsu Training to attack a foe you may add your dexterity modifier to damage.
Special: You may combine Battojutsu Strike with feats such as cleave or vital strike if you have them.
You have increased your speed and learned how to strike multiple foes with your Battojutsu Training.
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Quick Draw, Battojutsu Training, Battojutsu Strike
Benefits: Battojutsu Training may now be used as a full attack action instead of a single attack before returning your sword to its sheath. Additionally, if you make only a single Battojutsu Strike in a round you instead may add 1 1/2 your dexterity modifier to damage.
Special: You may combine Greater Battojutsu Strike with feats such as cleave or vital strike if you have them but only when making a single attack.
Ok... just as a test I'm using the "Heroic" dice rolling method as this is what I'm allowing for character generation in my game.
I'll make a 6th level Human Fighter using the results.
Str 16, Dex 18, Con 15, Wis 13, Int 13, Cha 12 (+2 racial to 14 STR, +1 4th level bonus to Dex)
Medium Human Male
Speed: 35 (Fleet feat)
Defensive -
HD: HP (Base 10 +12 Con +6 Fav. Class)
AC: 19 (10 +4 Chain Shirt, +1 Dodge Feat, +4 Dex)
Saves: Fort. +7, Ref. +6, Will +3 (+2 vs. Fear)
CMD: 23 (10 +6 BAB +3 STR +4 DEX)
Offensive -
BAB: +6
CMB: +9 (+6 BAB + 3 STR)
Attack: +11 Bastard Sword 1d10+6 (+3 Str +2 Weapon Specialization +1 Weapon Training)
Feats:
- EWP (Bastard Sword), Quick Draw, Battojutsu Training
- Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
- Battojutsu Strike
- Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
- Fleet
- Greater Battojutsu Strike
Skills: 2 +1 Int./level
- Acrobatics +10
- Craft (Weaponsmith) +10
- Intimidate +10
Using the above basic character...
He could make a single strike against an opponent using (+3 Str, +6 Dex GBS, +2 Weapon Spec., +1 Weapon Training) for
Were I to give him Vital Strike at 7th he could do -
How does this sound as far as balance? Vital Strike does not seem over powered in this application right?
Well, it's different that the Battojutsu we included in the Samurai class published in Paths of Power, which was an advancement off the Iaijutsu combat style. It was gained at 11th level and how we represented it was by increasing the critical range of the user's katana or kodachi (which ever they took Weapon Focus in) by +1 at levels 11, 14, 17, and 20. So a katana with a critical range of 18-20 would be critical at 14-20 at 20th level.
Iaijutsu gave bonuses to initiative and a number of special feats much like Ranger combat style feats.
If Battojutsu is an attack action, and you can explicitly combine it with Vital Strike and Cleave, would that allow my cheesy fighter Shogo to spring attack in 15', VS using Battojutsu into one opponent, cleave into the next, and use the remainder of his move to move back 15'?
The feat itself is fine, but more needs to be done clarifying how it interracts with other feats. Personally, I would suggest making it more like a tactical feat, with multiple options that spring off of "When you quickdraw and attack with a weapon in the same round,..."
I specifically said "vital strike or cleave" for a reason. There is already disagreements with if you can cleave on a spring attack because of the specific wording of cleave requiring a standard action. This is the reason why I stated that cleave is possible as a option otherwise it would be argued that it cannot.
Until the wording on cleave changes... this will continue to be up to individual DM's to decide upon.
My opinion is that cleaving and spring attacking at the same time you are using vital strike with battojutsu... is fine with me. To get all those feats you'll have to be far above 8th level, still require two attacks, and only can hit two opponents. By 5th level a wizard can throw a fireball that does 5d6 (5-30) damage to everything in a 20 foot blast.
I do not see the problem.
I think they look good Lokie. I like the flavor and think that the abilities they grant are a good way to represent various actual battojutsu and iaijutsu manueuvers (especially with the lines spacifically allowing the Cleave and Vital Strike feat chains) from real life in the confines of the game.
That said if it were me designing the feats I might change the names from including battojutsu to iado if only to step back from the Ruroni Kenshin association. I know that that's where the inspiration came from and I know that the words are basically synonyms but I also know a buch of people who wouldn't allow the feats specifically because of the association with the dreaded anime. There might not be any here but I've had a number of feats and class ideas shot down not because they were unbalanced or didn't work but because they reminded people of Dragonball Z and other animes that protrayed similar abilities.
Also a quick question- can you do this with a two bladed sword?
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By 5th level a wizard can throw a fireball that does 5d6 (5-30) damage to everything in a 20 foot blast.
I do not see the problem.
Actually Fireball is a 20 ft. radius which is a 40 ft. blast. Radius means that it extends that length on each side of the origin.
Also cleave and vital strike work as standard actions (as part of the attack action) and spring attack just lets you move, make a standard action, and move again. (up to a total of your base land speed) I don't see a problem with using it as it was meant to be used.
Um I don't really like being this guy but I will just this once.
Ok so the whole technique is only possible in real life (yes it's possible in real life) because of the shape of a katana now I understand that in the game a katana is also considered a bastard sword (personal I think this is stupid because the weapons are wielded in completely different manners and in no way do they look, feel, or weigh the same)BUUUUT... if you want to have more of the flavor of the technique you should restrict it to weapons with curved blade such as the falchion, scimitar, and katana (though I think a dagger is small enough to be used as well but I don't think it would weigh enough to gain any extra damage).
what about the wakizashi?
Ok, here’s my suggestion:
Battojutsu [Tactical Feat]
Pre-req: BAB +4, Quick Draw
Benefits: You gain the ability to use a special Battojutsu maneuver once each round. These maneuvers may only be performed with a Dagger, Short Sword, Long Sword, or Bastard Sword.
Attack Draw Technique – As an attack action you may draw and make a single attack with a sword and return it to its sheath after the attack without provoking attacks of opportunity. If you have a sheathed sword on your person (not hidden or in a container) you are treated as wielding and threatening the squares around you with that weapon as if you had it in hand. Foes attacked in this manner are treated as flat-footed for purposes of canculating AC only.
Battojutsu Strike Technique – As a standard action, when you attack a foe you may add your dexterity modifier to attack and damage in addition to strength. You may combine this attack with feats such as cleave, vital strike, and spring attack if you have them.
Reactive Attack Technique – As an immediate action you may take an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has missed and is in a square you threaten. This technique can be combined with combat reflexes to gain multiple attacks against the same opponent, lunge to gain reach to threaten the opponent, or strike back to attack an opponent you cannot reach. This technique can be used even during a surprise round.
The attack draw technique has no value. you already threaten the squares around you and you can draw a weapon as a free action. The only kicker is the no dex to AC, which makes no sense unless this is the equivalent of a Feinting technique where they don't think you can draw your sword.
The Strike technique is way overpowered. Why should I gain +5 th/dmg on standard actions, and not on full attack actions? I could see just damage as a kicker...remember this is a multi-level feat. Damage bonuses shouldn't be handed out willy-nilly, especially scaling stuff tied to ability scores...and TH bonuses should be rare as a purple moon, or you utterly devalue both BAB and Strength.
The Reactive Technique is Riposte, which is strong enough to warrant a feat of its own, and not be folded into another feat.
I mean, seriously, I like strong feats, but this goes overboard, much like Shock Trooper with its Power Attack to AC shtick.
==
Also, Dexterity is primarily precision, with a secondary function of speed. Strength is primarily POWER, and power is what you want when hitting stuff. Someone really strong can wield a weapon as if it were weightless...someone weak actually has to use a light weapon. The reason why weapon finesse is a feat is because it is a considerably more difficult fighting style to use, and not instinctual. Relying on precision and speed to place your blows is much harder then relying on devastating speed and power to do the same.
===Aelryinth
what about the wakizashi?
Oh yea I forgot about that and I'm sure there is more curved bladed too
I believe the intention was "20-foot blast radius", which is a common enough term to have forgotten the last qualifier.Actually Fireball is a 20 ft. radius which is a 40 ft. blast. Radius means that it extends that length on each side of the origin.By 5th level a wizard can throw a fireball that does 5d6 (5-30) damage to everything in a 20 foot blast.
I do not see the problem.
Exactly as I meant.
The idea being that a fighter springing forward and hitting at max 2 opponents and springing back after maybe dealing damage to each enemy is nothing compared to a wizard who can deal at max the same amount of damage to a much wider area hitting many more opponents at a lower level without needing to make an attack roll.
Um I don't really like being this guy but I will just this once.
Ok so the whole technique is only possible in real life (yes it's possible in real life) because of the shape of a katana now I understand that in the game a katana is also considered a bastard sword (personal I think this is stupid because the weapons are wielded in completely different manners and in no way do they look, feel, or weigh the same)BUUUUT... if you want to have more of the flavor of the technique you should restrict it to weapons with curved blade such as the falchion, scimitar, and katana (though I think a dagger is small enough to be used as well but I don't think it would weigh enough to gain any extra damage).
This is more a matter of flavor and less a matter of rules. I listed a range of weapons in the PF core book. Those weapons can function as O Tanto, Wakizashi, Katana, O Katana.
Such as this picture... HERE.
Also... a dagger can be rather long... some of them almost short swords in their own right. I'm not thinking of a 2 inch made in Pakistan boot blade here. For example the O Tanto listed in that picture is over 13 inches of steel. For the purposes of the feat... what it loses in mass it makes up for in speed.
Also, Dexterity is primarily precision, with a secondary function of speed. Strength is primarily POWER, and power is what you want when hitting stuff. Someone really strong can wield a weapon as if it were weightless...someone weak actually has to use a light weapon. The reason why weapon finesse is a feat is because it is a considerably more difficult fighting style to use, and not instinctual. Relying on precision and speed to place your blows is much harder then relying on devastating speed and power to do the same.
Just want to mention this. If tornado force winds can speed a piece of straw up fast enough to shoot it through a cinder block... then speed can work in place of power just fine in my book when you are dealing with the razor edge of a sword.
Just want to mention this. If tornado force winds can speed a piece of straw up fast enough to shoot it through a cinder block... then speed can work in place of power just fine in my book when you are dealing with the razor edge of a sword.
While this is true, we're also talking about the dramatic limitations of human capability.
It probably all comes down to suspension of disbelief- some people's limits are different. Too many physics classes ruined many movies for me.
If you want to play a samurai type character, who specializes in sword-drawing techniques, we have that already in our book. Seriously, it's one of the combat styles a Samurai class character can choose.
Just want to mention this. If tornado force winds can speed a piece of straw up fast enough to shoot it through a cinder block... then speed can work in place of power just fine in my book when you are dealing with the razor edge of a sword.While this is true, we're also talking about the dramatic limitations of human capability.
It probably all comes down to suspension of disbelief- some people's limits are different. Too many physics classes ruined many movies for me.
Let expand my explanation then. Because the mass of a piece of straw is next to nothing its nearly impossible to get any "power" behind it. If speeding it up fast enough can drive a piece of straw through a cinder block... then speeding up a razor sharp sword, which also has more mass and power behind it, should require less of a speed increase to get better results.
When you take into account that most PC characters are superhuman in their capabilities... you should allow that those "limits" are more like speed bumps.
A PC Human with good rolls can have a 20 STR at first level. His max carrying capacity is 400lbs as a heavy load. He can lift 800 lbs above his head but only stagger around with it. This is comparable to a olympic weightlifter. (I think there is a record of just over 1000 lbs.)
As soon as you get into strength scores of 22 or higher you begin surpassing those limits.
If you want to play a samurai type character, who specializes in sword-drawing techniques, we have that already in our book. Seriously, it's one of the combat styles a Samurai class character can choose.
Thanks for letting me know. However... I was trying for a series of feats that ANYONE could select and not as just options for one character class.
Also, Dexterity is primarily precision, with a secondary function of speed. Strength is primarily POWER, and power is what you want when hitting stuff. Someone really strong can wield a weapon as if it were weightless...someone weak actually has to use a light weapon. The reason why weapon finesse is a feat is because it is a considerably more difficult fighting style to use, and not instinctual. Relying on precision and speed to place your blows is much harder then relying on devastating speed and power to do the same.Just want to mention this. If tornado force winds can speed a piece of straw up fast enough to shoot it through a cinder block... then speed can work in place of power just fine in my book when you are dealing with the razor edge of a sword.Playing devil's advocate here, but a tornado cannot drive straw into a cinderblock... Mythbuster's tested this into a palm tree and they only ended up with a 1/4" of penetration.
Anyway, it would be a function of power since in essence power is speed (mass x acceleration). To add acceleration, you need more force. STR dictates how much force you can apply to anything, which means STR governs the speed at which you can swing. This is already built into the rules.
DEX is precision and reflex. Reflex is the time between recognizing something and reacting to it; it has no bearing on how quickly you can move your limbs. This is why using weapon finesse effects your attack rolls, but not damage (can quickly judge and maneuver around the enemies dodge/armor/shield, but still hit with the same power).
While I really like what the mythbusters do... sometimes they cannot always duplicate events in the lab.
Here are what a number of posters on the Discovery boards say...
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7501919888/m/7411979069
A peice of straw hurled at 300 mph can do great things, sure.
You aren't throwing a peice of straw at 300 mph. You're swinging a sword.
Arrows launched from a bow with a great draw strength can punch farther into a wood block then most lower caliber weapons, despite moving only at a third of the speed. Why? Because they have much greater mass, and it takes much greater power to launch it.
You can draw a weapon as a free action, and that includes in response to an AoO, AFAIK. It doesn't have to be your turn. That's the wonder of Quick draw...he's moving into your square, you draw, and suddenly he just tripped your AoO meter. Zng! Poor bastard eats one.
The idea of doing more dmg on a standard action then a full action flies in the face of the game's rules. So I don't like the second aspect, esp since it's tied to an ability score, and easily abused.
Since everything you are doing is based on the draw, I suggest you limit your feat to effects that take place off the draw or are based around initiative, not wind-style swordsmanship.
Suggestions: At the beginning of combat, you may use your BAB (or Reflex Save?) for your initiative modifier if you draw your blade. This resets to your normal initiative on succeeding rounds.
Draw and Strike: Once per combat, you may make an initiative check against an opponent. If it succeeds, you may draw and strike with a sheathed weapon, and any hit threatens a critical.(Dueling time!)
Unsheathed: If your initiative is higher then your opponent, you may add your Dexterity to your damage instead of your strength. This does not work on the same round you draw your blade.
etc etc. There's some good Crane feats in the old Legend of Five Rings books, or OA, if you care to look them up.
==Aelryinth
You can draw a weapon as a free action, and that includes in response to an AoO, AFAIK. It doesn't have to be your turn. That's the wonder of Quick draw...he's moving into your square, you draw, and suddenly he just tripped your AoO meter. Zng! Poor bastard eats one.
Free actions are "generally" only able to be done on your turn. Otherwise... what is the point of immediate actions?
Speaking for example is far easier to do than say... drawing a weapon.
The idea of doing more dmg on a standard action then a full action flies in the face of the game's rules. So I don't like the second aspect, esp since it's tied to an ability score, and easily abused.
Technically you are not doing more damage overall. If you are making a multitude of attacks the possible "total" damage overall is greater but spread out. The damage on a single attack is focused... but should deal less damage total than that of the combined total of multiple attacks.
At least... that is how it appeared to me.
Also... it does not "fly in the face of the game rules" per se. I'm using the same mechanic for dex bonus to damage that you can get from strength bonus to damage and two-handing your weapon. Thus its no more abusable in its own right than a barbarian maxing out his strength stat to abuse power attack, a two-handed weapon... and rage.
Since everything you are doing is based on the draw, I suggest you limit your feat to effects that take place off the draw or are based around initiative, not wind-style swordsmanship.
The tornado example was just that... an example. (If possibly a poorly chosen one. *Shrug*)
This does give me an alternate idea... substitute initiative results for damage on a strike. Hmmmm.... something based loosely off of the Insightful Strike maneuver from Book of Nine Swords.
Actually, there's a huge difference. You've combined the 2 biggest combat stats into 1 stat. That barbarian isn't getting his pumped up STR score to initiative and AC. Whereas the samurai is getting all of the combat benefits of STR.
Also... it does not "fly in the face of the game rules" per se. I'm using the same mechanic for dex bonus to damage that you can get from strength bonus to damage and two-handing your weapon. Thus its no more abusable in its own right than a barbarian maxing out his strength stat to abuse power attack, a two-handed weapon... and rage.
I've combined the two stats with a big enough feat tax to make it hard to really take advantage of both. If a players want to focus that much then more power to them.
Also... the "samurai" is not getting STR 1/2. Perhaps another revision is in order to clarify this. However, this was the idea from the weapons I chose as well as the idea that the "fast draw" is supposed to be a two-handed technique.
What I guess I'm trying to say is that "MAD" rules apply. If you have the stats to bump up both STR and DEX to begin with... most melee characters would normally want to do so anyway. However... in a point buy system you are not usually going to see much problem from this as you'll not have enough points to bump both stats to "abusable" levels. If you "dump" stats to do so, you are breeding weakness into your character. As a DM I make a point of sometimes taking advantage of that weakness. I'm sure this is the case with most competent DM's.
The feats look cool. RK was an awesome anime. My suggestion is that it should only apply to 1-handed martial swords and katanas (which I assume will be an exotic weapon). I could see scimitars and katanas being drawn and sliced, but not bastard swords.
Glad you like the feats!
As there is no "Katana" in the core book, I listed the closest suggested weapon.
I do not see why a bastard sword cannot be "drawn and sliced" as it is a slashing weapon. The technique to draw a sword quickly has less to do with the curve of the weapon and more to do with the fact that you are pulling out the sword while you are pulling backwards on the sheath at the same time and then swinging the sword in a arc as part of the draw.
Yes... the "curve" of a real katana does lend itself well to a draw cut but as this is a game, such mechanics are to complex to include.
I do not see why a bastard sword cannot be "drawn and sliced" as it is a slashing weapon. The technique to draw a sword quickly has less to do with the curve of the weapon and more to do with the fact that you are pulling out the sword while you are pulling backwards on the sheath at the same time and then swinging the sword in a arc as part of the draw.
Yes... the "curve" of a real katana does lend itself well to a draw cut but as this is a game, such mechanics are to complex to include.
The shape of a bastard sword makes it cut very differently due to wait distribution than a katana. There are three types of strikes with a sword: Hewing, which is a chopping hit with the force of impact from a small section of the overall blade (ie the sweet spot); Stabbing, which is a thrust; and Slicing, which is drawing the edge of the blade along the target. Slicing, or 'drawing cuts' - not because they're done while being drawn, but because the length of the blade is drawn along the target - are how katanas cut so effectively. The curved blade has an even distribution of weight and force and provides mechanical advantage to a smooth slice. A bastard sword tapers and as such is at a disadvantage when slicing, but is more effective at hewing - about 4 inches below the tip is the sweet spot, where the leverage of the swing focuses the most amount of power on a chopping stroke.
Battojutsu is in fact entirely developed around slicing/drawing cuts, making clean perfect cuts through rolled up mats, carcasses, or wooden targets. The drawing-from-the-scabbard attacking method is Iaijutsu.
Likewise, a hand-and-a-half sword like a bastard sword would rarely be worn on the hip or through the belt, but rather in a baldric over the shoulder. Thus, you couldn't "pull the scabbard backwards". Sword length contributes to this: a katana was usually 38-41 inches in length, with 28 inches of blade. A bastard sword was often 48-50 inches in length, with 36-40 inches of blade. That extra foot makes it almost impossible to draw in the same manner as a katana, unless your arms are each 40 inches long.
I understand the differences in the weapons. Cold Steel is a company that seems to do their research on weapon design and so I often check their website for weapon stats.
These two links are good examples.
The difference in blade length is really not all that great at roughly only 3+ inches in difference. Overall difference is even less at only 2+ inches. Swords of both varieties would be crafted in differing lengths to suit the requirements of those who use them. However... the above example of a bastard sword would fit quite well stuck through a belt.
One of the actual biggest difference in the weapons is that the bastard sword is actually 10 ounces heavier as they use more steel in their construction. (wider blade...etc) In a longer example of a bastard or hand and a half sword the weight difference would be even greater. The bastard sword listed in the equipment section is a startling 6 lbs and weighs in a twice the weight of the hand and a half example above.
If you check the video... you'll see a razor sharp bastard sword cuts rolled mat quite well.