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Not sure if any of my ideas or concepts will help you, but I ran a 2 yr bronze age "celtic" campaign back in 2E days. I used the 2E Forgotten Realms supplement "Moonshae Isles" for the maps, names, and basic premise, which is the Ffolk are peaceful farming, mining, hunting, etc people (the ancient irish) that worship the Earth Mother and the Northmen are viking type raiders that plunder and pillage and worship evil gods (Saxons). Into this basic mix I threw stuff from the 2E celtic guidebook like bloodgelt and honor, so oaths and lying became very important.
- All clerics were outsiders and initially seen as those who would take people away from the Earth Mother (Goddess) and the Ffolke ways, and treated suspiciously or they are converted Northmen.
- All barbarians were converted Northmen.
- Druids replace clerics and gained turning undead and better healing. If I were to do it in PF system, I would probably change the druids animal companion to small ones that are more a familiar (ie-no wolves, lions, bears, etc) and adding in domains. Big tanking animal companions just don't mesh with my view of celtic druids, though your opinons may vary. I did make it easier for druids to make potions and create natural items that acting as spell storing devices as a 1 time use, usually created on religious holidays or full moons at sacred groves.
- I allowed wizards but basically made them sorcerers, gave them their spells through tattooes. Using PF, I would allow sorcerers and use either fey, giant, or dragon bloodlines, and have several different fey lines. Generally feared, regardless of whether they are helpful or not, due to their powers being unknown.
- bards and druids were highly respected, as were warriors of renown and prowess. Sorcerers, oracles, and other mystical classes were greeted with fear and suspicion and never fully trusted, even if they helped out the people, as they were seen as different.
- Rangers replaced the role of paladins basically for the Ffolke, and under PF, I would probably swap out favored enemy with smiting ability from the paladin.
- Armor and weapons were restricted, metal armor was rare and mostly salvaged from the Northmen who did have metal armor, mostly chain and breastplates. Most Ffolke used shield and one handed weapons, except for greatswords, while most Northmen used 2 handed weapons or long spears. Basically keep things setting specific.
- As far as other creatures go, I used giantkind, fey, bandits, foreigners looking to exploit the people or the land, and of course Northmen as the bad guys.
I also tossed in sea creatures that raided onto coastal villages, like sahaugin.
Hags, magical creatures, dragons, and NPC fey were the higher level challenges, and I took the Norse stance on giants and trolls and made them intelligent and innate spellcasters. Formorians were big dumb giants that were primitive (think hill giants), and firbolgs were their more intelligent cousins who were the only creatures in the game to wear plate mail. I know this isnt exactly according to myths and legends but it worked for me.
Undead were mostly ghosts, banshees and spirits, except for when tombs and graves were robbed, then corporeal undead came into the picture. I also used them once in an ancient battlefield where they were betrayed to their deaths by their lord.
- I used the clan structure with Lords to separate the "civilized areas" of the land, and your honor and reputation even as the enemy of a clan was important. The party got involved in several interclan disputes, including another early dungeon adventure where two clans fought over a dead whale that washed up on shore near the border between their lands.
- Honor was as big in my game as it would be in an Oriental adventures setting, and lying and treachery branded you an undesirable. This also led to making agreements and negotiating with unlikely creatures. One of my groups made an alliance with the Unseelie Court to fight against the Northmen, even though they were also evil, but they cared about the land. It also prevented them from solving every problem with their swords, and I ran an old Dungeon adventure to start them off, where the party has to negotiate with a small giant to get a magic cauldron for their lord, so he can feed his men and keep his standing. They could not just kill the giant and take his cauldron, as that would be akin to stealing, which is highly frowned upon and considered dishonorable. In the end, the party convinced the lord to take on the giant as a follower, which gained them and the lord high standing among the people.
- Created Unseelie Court(evil, drow are nobles) and Seelie Court (good in an alien way, high elves are nobles) and infused them throughout the land. The party worked with and against each of them at various points in the game, with the primary flavor being that the fey are powerful, but also alien and uncaring about humanity for the most part.
Here are some inspirations I used for creating the flavor of my game:
- fantasy novel "War of the Oaks" by Emma Bull
- Kenneth Flint fantasy novels
- Cattle raid of Cooley and other stories from the Irish
- Bremen laws
I was really pleased to see that you were considering some good stuff in your Clan Warrior class. I would point out that "Salmon Leap" is a more poetic translation of Chuchulain's signature move. Salmon Jump sounds kind of lackluster.
I love your setting idea!
Could the aasimar/tiefling be substituted for a fey-mortal?
Or perhaps the aasimar/tiefling might be used as Tuatha de Dannaan, while mortals represent the Milesian Celts?
I have been overwhelmed by other projects to get back into this, but its till dear to my heart to do something with this. Hopefully I'll start to develop more soon.
I just downloaded Ordo Draconis, and I think, "Wow!" many of the ideas I want to develop have been done fairly well in this publication. Still its set in something like a post "battle of Hastings" setting, which is about a thousand years after the Iron Age, I have in mind.
I like the Thane class described in Ordo Draconis, as it well describes the kind of clan warrior idea I had in mind. Someone mentioned I should look at alternate rules for shield use, and the Thane class has those too, since heavy armor is a restriction from that class - it is an interesting take on the idea. Maybe worth porting over to my setting idea - I might need permission from the Dragon Warriors publishers, though.
I like their take on Fey as well (though they call them Fay). Sometimes fey beings come off as too cute to offer as a monstrous threat for Pathfinder, but Ordo Draconis has made their versions fairly scary just the same.
If nothing else Ordo Draconis offers some great ideas for a very similar setting (if just too far ahead in the historical timeline.)
Thoughts?
GP
PS: at RC2 - yes, I'd be very interested if you can find that!
Doing some research on celtic weapons and strongholds.
For starters I'm looking at the Gaer Bolg which is a barbed spear that is used as a one-handed weapon with shield in other hand. It can be thrown like a javelin or placed on the ground and kicked for greater range and damage. This weapon can only be used by someone trained to use it, and can't be simply picked up off the battlefield or used by a fighter with spear weapon training. Its barbed on its entire length, with areas to hold by your hand. An untrained person trying to use the Gaer Bolg will hurt himself trying. Not sure how to do that mechanically aside from giving negatives in its use by untrained wielders, plus damage to yourself in trying. I will give it a great critical threat range as well.
While there should be bows in the setting, it seems that the primary missle weapon of the Celts were slings. In D&D/Pathfinder slings are rather weak weapons, when in reality (damage wise) they are more devastating then they are in most RPGs. Apparently a sling stone can fracture a skull even through a helmet and not "pierce" the helmet. I plan to give it the next die up in damage than the PF sling as well as a greater critical threat range. Slings will have the same current range in distance, however. I'm not trying to alter the sling for all campaigns, just for this Iron Age Celtic setting only.
Of course many bladed weapons will exist (varying types of swords mostly)including both bronze and hand-hardened iron swords, rather than quench hardened, which will make them more apt to break and bend than steel swords.
I may treat Shields as a secondary weapon used for defense, using the various shield bashing and shield specialty feats, however, I may give it a better parrying chance using an off-hand weapon mechanic - since all melee classes will be limited to medium armor (mostly chain shirts), the shield becomes more paramount for Celtic warriors, than most sword and board fighters.
For defensive structures I will be creating a Maiden Head Castle type of hill fort, as well as Broch Towers, Dun forts, Wheel Houses, Crannogs - elevated homes/village on stilts over shallow areas in lakes. The primary house is a round house common throughout northern Europe.
Thoughts?
GP
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For starters I'm looking at the Gaer Bolg which is a barbed spear that is used as a one-handed weapon with shield in other hand... An untrained person trying to use the Gaer Bolg will hurt himself trying. Not sure how to do that mechanically aside from giving negatives in its use by untrained wielders, plus damage to yourself in trying. I will give it a great critical threat range as well.
Sound like the perfect description of an exotic weapon, i.e., special training to use it correctly.
While there should be bows in the setting, it seems that the primary missle weapon of the Celts were slings. In D&D/Pathfinder slings are rather weak weapons, when in reality (damage wise) they are more devastating then they are in most RPGs. Apparently a sling stone can fracture a skull even through a helmet and not "pierce" the helmet. I plan to give it the next die up in damage than the PF sling as well as a greater critical threat range. Slings will have the same current range in distance, however. I'm not trying to alter the sling for all campaigns, just for this Iron Age Celtic setting only.
Maybe call them Warslings as opposed to the standard hunting slings?
Exotic Weapon, of course! That is so obvious I didn't think of it.
Also regarding Gaer Bolg, as mentioned you can use it for a kick type attack, which will limit it to one strike per round and now its not in your hand, however, forgot to mention that doing the kick maneuver forces the user to be flat-footed when doing so. This barbed spear must spin when thrown or kicked which makes for devastating damage. Pulling the spear out causes additional damage to its victim.
Warslings, another excellent idea - this way I'm not changing the sling for all campaigns. Good thoughts!
GP
This is not a threadjack, hear me out.
Since I am in the middle of three different publication projects, developing a whole other setting is hard to fit in. But one of those projects involves not creating full adventures, rather slices of mapped content and support material as drop-in pieces to existing adventures and campaigns. What I mean is, I have an idea of getting this setting introduced as one of the monthly mini-adventure products.
I was thinking of creating 16 geomorphic alley map tiles to create a labrynth of alleys. In light of a Celtic theme, I see the poor warrens of a given city inhabited by second class citizens - the Celts. Though these Celts resent their overlords - normal society, they operate their enchantments in the niche of the poor warrens. Like a land of Fey, the Alleys serve as a labrynthine venture into "the First World". Because the tiles are geomorphic, once a party enters and passes into the next tiled area, the previous one has changed - and theres no going back. Eventually an obligation to a fey being or Celtic spirit of power, a kindly act, a curse undone, will allow the party to escape the warrens.
I want to introduce the APG's Witch and Inquisitor and bring a bit of witch trials and inquisitions over the Celtic fey lore practitioners located in the city. Local Celtic scrappers, and a sort of underground organization of subversive provocateurs - not unlike pro Irish groups..., but these guys use Celtic gods and Fey Powers to give them advantage to the inquisition overlords.
Many of the ideas brought in this thread could be introduced in this adventure slice.
Even though the basic product line is intended for use in any setting, the products will eventually form a bottom-up world build. Including my Iron Age Celts into the productline would help develop a Celtic region in the eventual world project.
The first product release should be next month. I'm thinking this Celtic idea to fall in month three of production.
We might get something for this idea soon!
Thoughts?
GP
I know everybody is in a hurry to something developed on this, but my schedule is more than full right now, once projects start moving out of the way, I can get heavier into this. However, I just read me a great book for resource material - The Celts, a History.
This book was primarily concerned with the Celts from the Halstatt Culture up to their in the Roman Empire, with much effort from during the Ancient Greek period. Lots of intersting stuff - perhaps the most intriguing point made by the book was the suggestion that the culture in India is heavily influenced by Celtic knowledge (?!). They even gave a list of 10 Old Irish words beside 10 Sanskrit words of the same meaning, and their were only a few letters difference between the two. Also the oldest stone carved renditions of the Celtic gods had them sitting in the Lotus position (?!).
Another interesting fact, as discussed earlier in this thread, many Roman weapons are actually Celtic weapons adopted by the Romans for improved military technology. What the book informed me, was that every military technology used by the Roman army was a Celtic invention. Even the famous "testudo" turtle formation of interlocked shields were introduced to the Romans through Belgae in a certain battle. Proof being prior to Roman adoption of Scutum shield (Celtic invention)they used a round shield and a buckler, neither of which can be made into a turtle formation - not enough shields to link together.
The Druids were the intellectual class among the Celts (thus falling into our idea of "druid" being a trait applied to Bards, Sorcerers and Oracles of a clan.) However, it was their religion that demanded that no religious ritual be recorded or other official functions of that class. However, this by no means implies they were illiterate - as many druids of the Celts were celebrated authors in works written in Greek and Latin. Its also believed that when Christianity reached the Celts, it was the Druids, being their intellectuals who first read the bible and helped spread that faith among the Celts. Seems opposite to the point of view of pagan praticitoners opposing Christianity, as some writers suggest.
Also, because Celts were so wide spread across Europe and beyond, many of their shared beliefs and ideas of law, were treated as "international law" in those ancient days. It was discussed that the sack of Rome in 390 BC by the Semones of the Po Valley in northern Italy, was due to an indisgression by Rome in breaking a point of international law, and the sack and 6 month holding of Rome was as punishment and not a claim of Celtic sovereignty.
All this pretty much fluff type information, but certainly arms me with some more facts and directions for the setting.
Initially, I was looking at barbaric Iron Age Celts on the worlds fringe as in the insular Celts of the British Isles. Now I am starting to look at more continental European Celtic nation, where the northern islanders are just a part. Perhaps I could introduce trade with a Greco-Roman entity early on in the setting. Perhaps long before a Roman Empire, more like the Kingdoms of Etria, and the various Mycenaen Kingdoms.
Anyway, that inspires to do some more development on this idea...
GP
Just ordered Bastion Press, Fairies, a 3.0 supplement book to get ideas, and possibly updating many of those beings to Pathfinder Bestiary compatability, of course I will need new art for each of these, if I pursue this Iron Age Celts setting idea. I've heard this book is an excellent resource for fey beings on other forums and its only a $5 printed book.
While the hoped for first set of adventures would focus on the Winter Hag scenario, I think the setting handbook should include some non-Celt civilizations such as Greek City States and an Etruscan Kingdom, definitely pre-Roman, however. Doing so would allow for more traditional spell casters and true fighters, as the more I think about it, my Celts don't actually warrant a fighter class. Clan warriors, rangers, barbarians and roguish fighters for base martial classes, with Gestatae and Charioteer as martial prestige classes.
While I'd really like to begin full scale development on this, I'm in the middle of two publications at the moment, and other projects. More than likely heavy development won't begin until after the summmer at the soonest. Oh well, moving forward, just the same.
GP
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Ditch the spellbooks in favor of magical tattoes, as you mentioned (each spell is a complex knot-like pattern scribed on the wizard's skin, which must be meditated on each day to memorize), or the knot-like patterns and animalistic designs could be scribed on cured hides, etc.
Using actual knots, which are untied to 'release the magic' could also be funky scroll / spellbook variants.
The Inca did something similar for math, and while it wouldn't necessarily be true to Celtic lore, it might be funky for a fantasy variation.
While I'm big into historical accuracy, this is a fantasy game, so while untying knots might not be historically accurate, neither is casting spells, so I think using a physical rope tied into a Celtic Knot, then untied to release magic as a kind of scroll, is a great idea. I actually prefer that to stones with carved Ogham runes that crumble when you use them.
Nice idea, Set!
GP
I was looking at Wicked K Games Fragarach, first a Wikipedia page, then I followed the source links and found an awesome Celtic History, Religion and Fairies site for ideas.
For the Fey, rather than just knowes and fairy rings, places "in between" serve as portals to the Fey Realm: the shore between land and sea, a stream separating to regions, a mountain pass, a tunnel, a path between to arching oaks with intertwined branches. Perhaps having a Knowledge: Fey skill combined with a Perception check would help one to avoid or deliberately enter the Fey Realm upon recognition of terrain that qualifies for moving "in between".
The Fey realm is in perpetual twilight (a place between light and dark), though the terrain matches the prime material plane, but the land has all sorts of dangerous anamolies, and rules that must be followed to safely traverse and bypass dangerous encounters - another reason to have Knowledge: Fey. Fey Taboos like uncleanliness, poor manners/rudeness, breaking oaths, not following Guest/Host Law, exchange of gifts, etc. Plus rules like never leave the path... Different locations within the Fey realm might have different rules for one aspect or another.
Fey come in three basic types: guardians, guides and malevolent beings.
Guardians protect a single location or small region, such as a stream, spring, waterfall, lake, a hill, a forest, a copse or grove, knowe, an old ruin or other specific place. Often they are guarding portals into or out of the Fey Realm. Guardians can play tricks, speak omens, or require combat to bypass.
Guides serve as helpers to mortals, but require an exchange of gifts, services, food, they can be summoned through exotic means, they are usually weak compared to other fey beings, but still have magical tricks they can perform. If spurned or treated badly can confer curses and it becomes known to all fey and becomes a racial slight. Bad choices have reprecussions.
Malevolent beings run the gamit from fairly innocent tricksters, to death dealing monsters and near demonic beings.
In many ways Fey look at mortals with the same awe and misunderstanding as mortals see them. Fey crave mortal food, and perform activities that emulate humans as in being miners, farmers, herders, cobblers, carpenters, and other mundane occupations, even though its not really necessary for fey society. Most of their world is glamour and illusion
As angels are beings of right and good, and devil/demons of evil and destruction, fey lay between as representatives of natural manifestations: rain, wind, morning, bees, insects, mist, flowers, trees, and the endless multitude of possibilities. In some ways fey are similar to elementals with more diversity.
Another division among the Fey are Trooping Fey versus Solitary Fey. Trooping Fey maintain villages and sovereignties, generally inhabiting a large region and serve an king or queen. They have small armies and maintain a central court. Solitary fey tend to be more rustic and generally more malevolent, or serve as guardians.
Fey never give their true names. You know the tale of Rumplestiltskin, rather they say, "people call me ----", "you can call me ----". This is a way to gain power over a fey, like knowing a dragons true name.
The overwhelming presence of Fey beings in the setting, combined with the ease of moving within and without the Fey Realms, makes wilderness adventuring, especially dangerous and exotic.
If you consider the origins of many Fey to being fallen gods, nature spirits, and elementals their power can be appreciated and more greatly feared than the fairy tales we know today.
GP
Regarding the pantheon. Of course the Irish Cycles have a very rich tapestry of Celtic gods, especially in the Tuatha de Danann (children of the goddess Danu) and of the various Celtic pantheons in existence, we have the most knowledge. However I am finding sources for Brythonic and Gallic pantheons which have some of the same gods of the Tuatha de Danaan, but also ones with different names and stories throughout the British Isles and Gaul (France).
I'm kind of leaning towards the Brythonic and Gallic pantheons more so than the Irish versions, as they are less written about in fantasy literature, and also opens more room for poetic license than following the known traditions of Irish Celtic deities. Though the Tuatha de Danaan can still serve as a framework and guide to building a more unique pantheon and legendary base for the whole setting.
Also of the giants, I was reading actual scholarly work (?) that suggested that the Fomorians were actually mesolithic Neandrethals - thanks Wicked K Games for that link too. Which I can use to help build the ogre, giant, hag population of the starting storyline. It works well into the Winter Hag ushering a new Ice Age theme. Of course the Winter Hag (Caillech Bheur) is another Brythonic local, or pre-celtic deity of the setting and actual British legend.
Since 500 BC is the proposed location on a Earth comparitive timeline, Ogham script doesn't exist (invented in 300 AD), but chain mail does exist invented by the Celts, also Arthurian legend doesn't exist either, however it is surmised that many of the socalled Arthur tales are actually much older, that have been interwoven with that legend base. So I can easily adopt Arthurian stories separated from an Arthur being, and place it in this earlier timeframe.
That's it for ideas, tonight.
GP
Some Combat Mechanics Ideas:
What about making "Salmon Leap" a new combat maneuver instead of a feat?
This is the maneuver used in combat to attempt to leap high above a shield worn by an opponent to make an attack that bypasses the shield bonus with a single attack, performing this maneuver is a standard action. The opponent gets an Attack of Opportunity. Opponent must be flat-footed in order to perform this combat maneuver. (This limits using the maneuver in the first round of combat, if wins initiative against opponent, or otherwise becomes flat-footed due to abilities, feats or spells.)
Improved Salmon Leap is a Clan warrior feat that denies the Attack of Opportunity for performing this maneuever. (Like Fighter certain feats are only available to Clan Warrior class, so might be worth for dipping.)
Conversely, a feat should be available to allow a Clan Warrior to wield a medium or larger shield over his head to grant full shield AC bonus (see below) to counter a Salmon Leap attempt. However wielding your shield in this way removes your shield bonus from frontal attacks by adjacent foes in threatened squares.
The armor available in the setting is limited to padded leather, studded leather, ring mail, and chain mail shirts. Iron helmets with bronze decoration are worn by clan champions. The shield becomes the most important armor element to the Clan Warrior. Some consider Celts not using a tower shield, but here's my arguement. The Roman Scutum, large and I think tower shield (?) like all other Roman armor and weapons are borrowed from the Celts. Rome had discipline, the Celts did not.
So I think Celts should have access to tower shield or medium round shield.
Toying around with different shield ideas, this is one thought. Instead of Armor or Weapon Training as a fighter gets, how about Shield Training, which grants +1 AC and +1 damage for use as Shield Bash at a similar progression as Fighter Armor Training. Is this too powerful? If so, how should I adjust this?
GP
Another thought is to give Clan Warriors half progression in Rage Powers, so emulate the Cu Chulain Celtic heroes who fought with tendencies of going berserk in battle, but using special maneuvers, weapon and shield specialties to stand out as a distinct martial class?
Is that going too far?
GP
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I would like to point out that before spells were big complex magic written down, the primitive Wizard begins and ends in a blending of Spell Wizardry to remember the magic (reducing the number of spells a wizard can have and when he/she can have them) and a concept of mixing the ingredients of the spell (including the 'ink') to cast the spells on completion. Symbols and protections might be tatooed into/on the skin of the recipient, Wooden Spears might be soaked in the spell ingredients as it was enchanted with magic to become a Fire Hardened Spear+5, Disintergration...
As much as I can, I don't want to stray too far from the basic classes. I don't want to create something too incompatible with Pathfinder RPG. So though I am introducing a Celtic Clan Warrior Class to replace the Fighter, and also removing Cleric, Druid and Paladin (Clerics and Fighters) belong to other human cultures (Etruscan/Mycenaean), I want only flavor differences to the other classes being allowed in the setting.
So while I agree a primitive wizard could be weaker and seem more accurate, I want to keep the wizard the same, except for the tattoos instead of spellbooks and knot scrolls instead of true scrolls, but keep the two varient classes otherwise identical. I think Celts though a bit primitive martially to civilized nations should be equivalent in spellcasting.
Good thoughts, though.
GP
NOt sure if anyone mentioned this previously. But TSR put out a 2nd edition book (as part of the 'Historical Research' series of books that were really awesome) called "Celts"... The books is great with illustrations of historical materials, sections on daily life and history, monsters usually in Celtic tales, using classes (granted that wouldn't include the new ones from Advanced Players), equipment lists, etc...
It is a seriously awesome book and I'm sure you would find it incredibly useful. (Especially as it is heavier on info than mechanics.) Also there are books in the series for Greece, Rome, and Vikings. PDFs do exist online or you could try eBay.
Got it, thanks.
GP
Other than the basic cultural fluff, most of the special maneuvers in my Clan feats came from D&D 2e Celtic Sourcebook. The other aspect of that book that I will definitely employ are the Enchanted Islands and Places concept - islands that come and go, some that serve as entries to the Fey Realms, others as magical places with unique rules that exist only for each island. Isles on lakes and near the coastline will often be of this nature.
Since I like real history, my favorite Celtic source of recent reading is The Celts - a History by Peter Berresford Ellis, which contains much new information (or information I never heard before) that is very scholarly constantly holding references to Greek and Roman historians throughout. The main interesting facts of new information I found in this book:
1. Despite the fact that Celts are illiterate as a culture, preventing druids (the educated) from writing down their rituals and practices, most druids could actually read and write in Greek or Latin, and there are published works in those ancient times by Celts - notably the first comedies in latin, some Greek histories and other works.
2. Ellis is one of several scholars who believe those Celts migrating eastward eventually reached northern India, and that the Sanskrit language, the Indian social castes, much of their foundational Hindu beliefs are actually Celtic. Ellis showed a list of 10 words in Old Gaelic, side by side with 10 Sanskrit words of the same meaning and the spelling differences between the two lists were off by only a letter or two. Also the oldest known carvings depicting the Celtic gods in Europe are seated in the Lotus position. Pretty revolutionary stuff!
3. The Celts had built roads of wood throughout Europe long before Romans were building roads of stone. In fact many of the socalled Roman roads north of Italy actually exist on top of existing Celtic roads. Found in a bog in northern Britain were uncovered surviving Celtic wooden roads (included with photos of them). Some were wide enough to allow two chariots to pass, others were only wide enough to allow a single wagon to travel upon it. Many such roads went into woodland areas which allowed Celtic charioteers to easily reach one battle site to another before the Romans got there, was a notable mystery by Caesar in his book on Gaul. Each Celtic king who had roads crossing their territories were responsible for their upkeep four times a year, so a kind of Department of Transportation system existed among the ancient Celts.
4. Once the Celtic world was becoming converted to Christianity, what happened to all the druids? Were they wiped out on Anglesy Island or similar sites by the invading Christian Romans? No, since druids were the educated of the Celts and could read and write, they were the first converts to Christianity as being the first among the Celts to read the Bible. The first Celtic Christian monastic orders were formed by druid converts.
5. Finally all the negative propoganda by Caesar and Strabo, as well as other scholars of the time tried to insinuate how primitive the Celts were (practices of religious sacrifice, etc.) When technologically the Celts were on equal footing with the Romans, to the point that all Roman military technology (include the Testudo or "tortoise" shield formation) was Celtic first, used against the legions in decisive battles against the Romans and were later adopted by the legions - all armor and weapons fall under this category. Roman strength was always its discipline, formations, and the fear legioneers had of their commanders - principles that the Celts did not have, and caused their eventual loss to Rome. Also science, astronomy, the perception of the gods, agricultural techniques, etc were things Celts taught the Romans. Many "Roman" gods throughout the continent were actually Celtic gods that the Romans adopted into Roman religion. Epona the Gallic goddess of horses was a major god among Roman soldiers. Also regarding human sacrifice, despite the minimal archaeological evidence supporting druidic sacrifice, the Romans sacrificed more Christians and criminals in religious rites than any such case among the Celts - the human sacrificing Celtic idea is entirely without fact and the reverse was true among the Romans...
All aspects going into my Celtic setting (well not the Christian converts).
At this time, I am undertaking more serious scholarship regarding the Fey and awaiting new ideas to incorporate and finish my setting.
GP
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Speaking of Celtic Mythology and the Fey...Has anyone heard the Term 'The Gray Door' or 'The Gray Gate'?
It seems to be tied to the first historical Emergance of Fae...Its just that i've been following the history of the Humanoid and Demihuman races (in human history) back to their Origin.
- Elf
- Dwarf
- Hobgoblin
- Troll
- Cyclops
- Giant
- Ogre
- Sidhe
- Fairy
- Sprite
- Banshee
I reach a common origin term called the 'Gray Door' or 'Gray Gate'.
@YD - nope, never heard of that, but I'm glad you found it. Keep looking and I'll look through my meager sources for that as well. Sounds to me something like what a Fey Portal might be described as, or perhaps something more intriguing with a Pandora's box concept to it, sounds interesting.
I'd love to incorporate a Fey Origins portion of the setting handbook, and an origins tale like the "Gray Gate" sounds like fun.
GP
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@YD - nope, never heard of that, but I'm glad you found it. Keep looking and I'll look through my meager sources for that as well. Sounds to me something like what a Fey Portal might be described as, or perhaps something more intriguing with a Pandora's box concept to it, sounds interesting.
I'd love to incorporate a Fey Origins portion of the setting handbook, and an origins tale like the "Gray Gate" sounds like fun.
GP
Still having trouble isolating the historic source that refers to the 'Gray Door'. I am however creating an interdimensional Megadungeon beneath a mountain with a Single point of entry called the 'Gray Door' tied to the origins of the Humanoids/demihumans of my setting. I found out that KAS is another word for Gray so the Sword of Kas is going to be the Key to the Gray Door.
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I tied the Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears into the fey by having them (and Gnomes and Elves) be fey who 'stayed too long' and became creatures of the daylight world, more or less, although each of those five races had some members who were 'more fey' and had the fey type and some mystical abilities.
The Gnomish / Kobold race hate was ditched for Gnomish / Goblin race hate, as the two races were twisted reflections of each other, one seelie, one unseelie, and with the possibility that a captured Gnome could be turned into a Goblin (and the much rarer possibility that a redeemed Goblin could become a Gnome). Goblins can look like any sort of twisted little runt, like the goblins from Labyrinth. They aren't all football-heads, like in Golarion, or little orcs, like in other settings, but filled with unique grotesqueries.
The same pairing existed between Elves and Hobgoblins, and the Hobgoblins of this setting would be cruel, lithe and elegant creatures, whose armor, weapons, castles, etc. would look more like what you'd expect from dark elves than hobgoblins (and they essentially would be the dark elves of this setting, although only a non-elf would ever call them such, as reminding an elf of their similarities to the 'hobgoblins' is a deadly insult). Hobgoblins take to honor and cruelty the same way elves take to free-spiritedness and empathy, as befits their mirror-status, each race representing one extreme or 'season,' as so many fae-derived races do.
There would have perhaps once been a seelie version of Bugbears, but the Bugbears killed them all and ate their hearts, so that they could never come back. Bugbears are just that scary. They devoured and destroyed their own potential for goodness, and were cast out of the fey realms long before any other fey race made the crossing. Indeed, the first fey to cross between the worlds was a bugbear...
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Are you planning on using Brehon Laws? Some of them are quite interesting, and add a lot of flavor to the game, even if they were Irish, and I am not sure you are going for a wholly Irish setting. They have been widely regarded as very advanced for the time they originated (600-900 AD), and there was equality between men and women, at least as close at you were likely to get in those days.
Are you planning on using Brehon Laws? Some of them are quite interesting, and add a lot of flavor to the game, even if they were Irish, and I am not sure you are going for a wholly Irish setting. They have been widely regarded as very advanced for the time they originated (600-900 AD), and there was equality between men and women, at least as close at you were likely to get in those days.
Thanks for the reference - I very much do need a source for Celtic Laws, and had not heard of Brehon Laws specifically. Though I want to create a Celtic World comparable to all of Western Europe in pre-Roman days, thus Celts in Ireland, the British Isles, Gaul (France), Danuvius (Danube region), and the Iberian Peninsula - not just the Irish, I also happen to know that much of Celtic knowledge is lost or not yet recovered, and Irish lore might be as close as one can get, since Ireland maintained things Celtic longer than anyone else. If there's authentic Celtic Lore its among the Irish, Welsh and Cornish, otherwise its mostly gone.
I'll see what I can find on Brehon Laws, thank you.
GP
PS: I just ordered GURPS: Celtic Myth, as another reference, we'll see how that helps as well!
My source material so far:
D&D 2e Celtic Resource Guide
GURPS: Celtic Myth (just ordered, hadn't received yet.)
The Celts - a History, by Peter Berresford Ellis
The Encyclopedia of Fairies, Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies and Other Supernatural Creatures, by Katherine Briggs
The Erotic Book of Fairy, by Maureen Duffy (ordered, not received yet.)
Bastion Press, Fairies sourcebook
Andrew Lang's Color Fairy books - http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/
La Tene Chronology site - http://www.gallicobelgae.org/la_tene_chronology.htm
Celtic Britain online source - http://www.britainexpress.com/History/Celtic_Britain.htm
Ogham Alphabet site - http://www.uponreflection.co.uk/ogham/
The Faerie Realm site - http://faerymists.tripod.com/index.htm
Celtic Europe - http://www.watson.org/~leigh/celts.html
Celtic Weapon - http://www.scottishmist.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category& amp;layout=blog&id=48&Itemid=63
Celtic Mythology - http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/objects.html
That last website has tons sources for Gaelic, Gallic, and Brythonic gods, 3 different genealogies for the Tuatha de Danaan, and tons of great Celtic mythos information.
And thanks to RedCelt32, I just found a good source for Brehon Laws -
http://www.danann.org/library/law/breh.html
The research has been as fun as the development - I love history and mythology anyway. Hopefully all this will give me something to work with!
GP
Trait: Druid
Category: Social
Requirement: Keld setting, sanctioned member of the Druid caste, which include all clan bards, oracles, sorcerers, witches and wizards.
Description: You are a clan noble, and after years of training and testing have been given official sanction into the Druid caste. As part of the intelligencia, you serve the Ri (King or clan chief) as a neutral advisor and arbitrator for your specialty among the other clan druid caste members. You are the historians, law-keepers, scientists, philosophers, religious leaders, and masters of the arcane arts.
Benefits: +1 bonus to Knowledge (clans) checks, Knowledge (clans) becomes a class skill. Keld Law prohibits the willful harm or slaying of any member of the Druid caste. Druid caste members are forbidden to directly participate in inter clan conflicts, although they can prepare warriors with enhancements prior to combat and aid them afterwards. Keld Law requires Druid caste members to remain neutral to Keld clan politics, and may only participate as arbitrators, unless they are one of the parties in dispute.
GP
Keld Law: (Draft 1)
This serves as the Code of Conduct required by all members of Clan society.
Using the Brehon Laws as a reference, but requiring a simpler code of conduct for Keld society this is my first attempt. (Note until further notice, the setting is now called Keld - Iron Age Celtic Clans setting)
First Law - Restitution for all Infractions: capital punishment for crimes and infractions is prohibited, the law requires review by neutral arbitrators and judgement by king or clan chief with payment of restitution in the form of cattle and property called Honor-Price to the wronged party, based on status and levels of material wealth.
[A table of offenses and restitution scaled to social rank will eventually be created.]
Second Law - Trial by Combat: Arbitration and judgement can be set aside if both parties in a legal dispute agree to a trial by combat, between chosen champions or themselves fighting until pre-agreed terms of defeat have been achieved. While most disputes arise between two individuals, trial by combat can escalate to clan versus clan feuds which still technically qualify as trial by combat. Feuds by tribes and regions are considered wars and also fall under this category. In any case, neutral arbitrators can interceed at any time for a temporary truce to try and achieve equitable settlement between disputed parties.
Third Law - Clan Division, Rights and Priviledges: all clans of Keld from top to bottom are divided between rulers, nobility, landowners, commoners, the poor, immigrants, slaves and criminals and have varying degrees of rights and priviledges due based on clan status and levels of material wealth, as well as additional unique rights granted by the Ri.
King or Clan Chief (Ri) - as an elected leader of the clan or tribe, the Ri is the final judge on all matters. Through majority vote by the nobility and landowners, the Ri can be removed from office if considered unworthy for any reason. The Ri is entitled to lands and property to support his governorship in addition to his own material wealth, granted a warband of clan warriors, and a support staff of druids, artisans and servants.
Nobles (Nemedh) - priviledged members and their immediate families of clan society are the primary landholders and wealthy property owners who serve official offices as members of the court of the Ri. All clan warrior's of the warband, all members of the druid caste, wardens (rangers) and scouts (rogues), as well as the most skilled and wealthiest clan artisans comprise the noble caste. Through majority vote by the Ri, noble caste members and landowners, a noble caste member can be downgraded to lower status or removed from clan altogether due to acts of infamy or failure to pay restitution and considered an outlaw. The nobles are entitled to their own land and properties, a vote in government.
Upper Middle Class (Aire) - wealthy non-noble landowners including rich farmers, herders or fisherman with more than a one ship - almost consider lesser nobles have many of the rights and priviledges of the noble caste, though less material wealth. With the acquisition of enough wealth, the aire are the only non-noble social caste that can be elevated to noble status, conversely with the loss of enough wealth due to circumstance, restitution or fortune aire can be downgraded to Ceile or lower status. The aire have a vote in government and can bear witness against the Ri and the noble caste.
Middle Class (Ceile) - comprised of rent-paying land holders, skilled craftsmen, farmers, herders, tradesmen - the bulk of clan society. The ceile do not have a vote in government, but can bear witness against someone higher rank than their own. Like the aire through gains and loss of fortune, their status can move one caste level up or down, unless failure to pay restitution which relegates all to criminal status.
Non Free Castes:
Bathach (poor, unskilled, wasteland squatters) - having almost no material wealth, they survive at the good graces of the upper castes for employment. Having almost no rights, like the Ceile they can bear witness against those with higher rank than themselves. Though difficult to achieve the bathach can achieve Ceile status with the acquisition of enough wealth or aquiring more skills.
Saer-Fuirdir (immigrants) - immigrants, both non-local Keld tribe members and non-Keld have come to the territory voluntarily and on general good terms with the authorities may pay rents for land to provide work and a place to live. They have no voice in government and cannot bear witness. With enough acquisition of wealth saer-fuidir can elevate themselves to near ceile status, but cannot gain the rights to bear witness at any time.
Daer-Fuirdir (criminals and slaves) - criminals (those who fail to pay restitution for offenses committed) and slaves (war captives) cannot hold material wealth, have no voice in government, cannot bear witness and live at the good graces of their jailers and owners. Emancipation is the goal of Keld Law and through restitution payment, proven skill and trust can be elevated to Ceile status. Outlaws (those ousted from clan and/or tribal membership for gravest offenses and lack of restitution payment) and escaped criminals are considered the lowest members of society. Only through extreme circumstance and atonement can they return to clan society, at ceile or higher status.
[A table describing levels of wealth and corresponding social rank will be created.]
[PCs in a typical campaign are all members of the Nemedh noble caste, the lower caste levels serve as the bulk of the clan NPCs, or as a lowered status placed onto PCs due to misfortune and circumstance. Non standard campaigns can begin at any level of clan society as appropriate.]
Fourth Law - Druid caste guarantees: as neutral advisors, educators and arbitrators, druid caste members are proscribed from taking sides in a dispute, unless if they are one of the parties in dispute, and must remain neutral to arbitrate disputes when appropriate, doing so for all clan issues, and with the best interest of both parties. If their arbitration proves false, contrived or with prejudice, they are liable for the restitution of the offense. They cannot participate in non-druid challenges, combat or agression between parties, though they can prepare warriors for combat and aid them afterward. This applies to disputes between Keld clan members, clans, tribes and nations (Keld and foreign).
[This means that druids can adventure and fight monsters, fey and natural beasts, but cannot direct participate in combat between members of Keld society, rather they can buff their allies and debuff opponents prior to the start of combat, but cannot otherwise engage in combat directly.]
Consequently members of Keld society are proscribed from willfully harming or slaying a member of the Druid caste under any circumstance. Under extreme circumstances such as a druid's assault on an innocent, the Ri or directly, illegally participating in combat between two Keld parties, may be prevented (even killed) by another druid caste member only - though restitution will still be required for the harm, loss or death of that individual.
Fifth Law - your word is your contract: in a society without written contracts, oral contracts are binding as long as conditions of duress, fear, ignorance or drunkeness between two agreeing parties do not exist. Contract discrepancies have a 10 day grace period to make alterations for unfair agreements made, after which is binding and irreverseable. Failure to transact the contract by either party may be subject to arbitration and penalties for contract default with restitution paid to the wronged party. A person's only point of honor is their word, and giving false witness (lying) is considered the most despicable breach of social conduct, and grounds for expulsion from clan and tribe.
[Note: exageration is considered poetic and not giving false witness.]
Don't need a map yet, but I've been buggin' to have one started to give me some inspiration for development. So I whipped this up yesterday, though its not finished. This map represents the Ireland analog of the setting, though only a small portion of the greater map that will be a Western Europe analog. Need to add heraldric shields for the Kingdoms (larger red labels). The smaller labels are tribal names.
Enjoy! I'll post a link when this is finished.
GP
I'm pretty sure my Iron Mage is ready for prime time -- I'm giving the current thread a week to see if anyone's got nitpicks, then I'll be posting in the Advice forum looking for optimizers to break it. ;) You had asked me to keep you up to date on that, for potential inclusion here.
I have been following your (currently at Draft 9) Iron Mage. I even read your side thread helping that one poster on building a dwarf Iron Mage for his daughter - so I'm keeping close tabs!
Interestingly (or not), thoughts now are looking at my Picts as being the dwarves of my setting, rather than a Brythonic branch of Celts (nothing in stone of course, just my thoughts lately.)
If you publish this class on your own, I have no problems pointing to it as a supplementary product for my setting. However, if interested, I might want to publish it to be included in my setting (for a share of profits) if you'd like or some other business arrangement.
It fits well with my setting. I definitely like it a lot.
Good luck with it, no matter what you decide.
GP
Welcome to the boards Gamer Printer!
I don't know if you remember me from the Cartographer's Guild website, but I was registered there as yu gnomi. You made some Xara tutorial pdfs for me which helped me out a great deal.
I love the idea of an Iron Age setting, I used to play the Chaosium game called Runequest quite a bit (a long time ago), which was set in a completely fictional Bronze Age setting. Although the world setting for Runequest is too crazy to translate into D&D, I think that an Iron Age setting could capture much of the same feel that Runequest had. It would make for a welcome change from the default medieval and renaissance feel of most D&D settings.
I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this or not, but the Advanced Players Guide has Archetypes for all of the Core Classes, which swap various class features for new ones that are particular to each Archetype. For example, the Rogue class has about a dozen or so Archetypes- with names like Acrobat, Burgler, Rake, etc- which swap out either Trapfinding or Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, for new features. So, instead of developing whole new classes for an Iron Age setting, a set of Iron Age Archetypes could be made. I think that this would probably be simpler.
Yes, I remember, you never finished that Challenge map!
Yes, I know and have the APG. I started this thread sometime late last year, long before the APG was known by me. I still plan to develop a caster, and a clan warrior, as well as at least one prestige class, but all the rest of the classes will now be APG class variants.
Good seein' you again.
GP
Re: the mapping challenge- I got very crunched for time and quit working on mapping projects, as well as other things. Also, that project didn't seem to be sparking much interest from other cartographers.
I was wondering if a culture like the Geats from the Beowulf story would be a good fit for this setting. The Geats are also referred to as 'spear danes' in the story, and were a Norse culture, although the story takes place centuries before Scandinavians started the habit of piling into their longships to go 'viking'
What follows is speculative, I am not a historian, but I am thinking that the Geats would probably be horseman, not mariners, who would have been fairly warlike. They would probably wear ring mail hauberks - which I think would be roughly equivelant to studded leather or a chain shirt, and commonly be armed with spears and large wooden shields. More details would, of course, have to be discovered or made up, in order to include them.
By proposing the inclusion of the Geats, I am not pushing for a culture that fits perfectly into the 'Viking' stereotype- they do not wear horned helmets, and are not commonly seen carrying war brides back to their longships, while some hapless community is being destroyed. This would be a slightly different Norse stereotype, from an earlier age- before they invented horned helmets and longships.
If no one has said it yet read the "Tain". Frankly I think it was the inspiration for the idea of feats. Back to the first post you may be confused between having no written form of Celtic language and being illiterate. All the Celts[(being a language group that spanned from Asia to the most of Europe and over millennium of history)or are we referring to just the British Celts?] used writing of some form. every one needs to keep track of taxes. In Europe they used latin when dealing with the Roman world. Back to the topic. The Celts had a Oral tradition, you can use this in saying wizards had to learn spells orally, remembering the formula and meditaing on the formula too fill a spell slot. Or that they just learn a written magic language, that is not the spoken language. And again if you want inspiration for a Celtic world first read "The Táin Bó Cúailnge".
It should be in the first post. The Celts indeed had no written language, but historians, philosophers and poets in both Greek and Latin were written by Celts. They were certainly literate. As a people, they were not. Individuals could be. What was stated is that their religion forbids them from 'writing down' rituals, history, etc.
I am well versed in Celtic history and lore. I am already aware of this and its mentioned thusly, in this thread.
GP
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It should be in the first post. The Celts indeed had no written language, but historians, philosophers and poets in both Greek and Latin were written by Celts. They were certainly literate. As a people, they were not. Individuals could be. What was stated is that their religion forbids them from 'writing down' rituals, history, etc.
I am well versed in Celtic history and lore. I am already aware of this and its mentioned thusly, in this thread.
GP
Cant have the enemy knowing your secrets and rites...buggers might desecrate your dead or something.
The Gray Gate
The Dhwergher Sub-Races emerged from the Gray Gate. The 'Gray Gate' has three states of Opening:
1. The Gray Gate
2. The Glittering Gate
3. The Glowing Gate
A Gray Gate can only be opend by a balance of Light and Dark Energy. A Gray Gate is open because the Dhwergher emerged from it. The Glittering Gate is a reference to Wisdom. It is somehow related to the Celtic Tradition of a Glittering tree.
The Glowing Gate is an unknown concept yet we can see that the Gate in its transition from Gray to Glittering to Glowing is increasingly open. This must imply some greater complexity to what is going to emerge from the Gate.
We behold the idea of a Three-fold Lock. Consider a Planar dungeon Complex where the Dhwergher are not able to progress any further in than the Gray Gate from which they emerged. They tell the Sorcerer "Do not seek the Gray Door" He opens the Gray door. They tell the Great Sorcerer who will open this Gate letting them out "Do not seek the Glittering Door." The Sorcerer Journies deeper in and opens the Glittering Door.
Again they say: "Do not seek the glowing Door." and the Sorcerer Journies deeper and opens the Glowing Door. The Gates increasing complexity locked away the true Power of the Dhwergher. Unleashing them means the Dhwergher now exist in the real world to the truest extent of their nature.
Fairies are not just little people with wings, When the Glamour wears off, they are tiny (3 inch tall) Pirana with Wings looking for a Meal.
Sidhe and Banshee are Poisoned by Iron but they are also capable of future sight.
Giants, Trolls, Ogres, Cyclops and other big Dhwergher are all flesh eaters looking for that next meal to fill their bellies.
Elves are either of the Dark (Forest and Cave dwelling Elves) or of the Light (Elves with Wings that fly - and live in the air and sky).
Dwarves are Deformed in body with Large heads and vary in size from those who are tiny (6 inches tall) - and have future sight (apparently commone to some extent to all Dhwergher) to those clans who are as the Dwarves we think of (4-5 feet high).
THat is pretty much what I have for now on Dhwergher Subraces and the Gray Door.
This would be a slightly different Norse stereotype, from an earlier age- before they invented horned helmets and longships.
The Norse vikings never did wear horned helmets -- that's a Hollywood thing.
Actually the Celts wore horned helms, but did so 1000 years before the Vikings existed, and the vikings never wore horned helmets. How that fact got flip-flopped like that - one can only guess.
GP
I've already commissioned some art for this project, though only one to post. An interior piece of a fey woman in front of a fey portal in the forest - I really like this one.
Not quite a Gray Gate, Yellodingo, but it works for now.
If you can trust anything a Roman writes, Yes the Celtic tribes north of the Hadrian Wall painted their faces a color that was probably not blue but has been translated as blue. This may be why the Romans named them the Picts. They may have been tattoos but still not blue, the word used to describe the tattoos was a type of glass that has a green/blue tint. I believe they used a copper based ink but no evidence to back it. A second note on the confusion of color. The classic green faced hag/witch was most likely blue, how do you translate bluegrass?
This would be a slightly different Norse stereotype, from an earlier age- before they invented horned helmets and longships.The Norse vikings never did wear horned helmets -- that's a Hollywood thing.
I thought it was a 19th century Wagnerian Opera thing...
@Printer
Good art. Is all the art going to be from the same artist?
@findel
Honestly, no. I can't afford that. I do have other artists I have worked with that are doing some pieces (I get better prices from these guys) and some illustrations of my own, as filler material - I'm not bad as an artist, better at maps, but prefer artists with more skill when I can afford it.
That last piece was by UK illustrator, Alex Tooth.
I have four character portraits being done for the new classes for the setting: clan warrior, runemaster, myrddon PrC and tainted Prc, being done by Jan Pospisil. These will be sepia-toned monochrome illustrations.
I might have my Fey bestiary inclusions done by Mark Hyzer, a US illustrator that has done work for my Kaidan setting, as well as WotC MtG CCG art and some work with AEG - of my fey, mostly pencil renderings.
That's it so far. I've only paid for the posted one, however.
@ Aaron Miller 335
I've read some experts that the tattoo color was based on iron, to produce that same color (blue/green), as copper is poisonous and would likely be a poor choice.
On the cabbage derived blue ink used for dying wool known as Woad, others attest a British propogandist from the 15th century created the myth of woad being worn by the Scotts, as a measure of protecting the British woad industry from cheaper inks on continent - truth is woad is an astringent and makes a terrible ink for dying one's skin (it doesn't work), so is just a myth.
GP
@findel
Honestly, no. I can't afford that. I do have other artists I have worked with that are doing some pieces (I get better prices from these guys) and some illustrations of my own, as filler material - I'm not bad as an artist, better at maps, but prefer artists with more skill when I can afford it.
I don't remember seeing any of your art, but your maps alone would make the book worth it. A book with elegant maps is like a restaurant with good menus!