Picts were notorious swordsmen according to all accounts, and though defeated by Agricola, the Romans were driven back to Hadrian's Wall fifty years later. And Celt, if not Pict, were known to drive chariots with a second flinging javelins at infantry. While most Celts could be NPC classed as warriors, there were examples of more martially effective fighter types in clan culture.
Looking at a 2e Celts reference, a list exists that easily converts to possible Fighter feats that offer special combat maneuvers only available to Celtic warriors. Now just as easily Rangers, Barbarians and Rogues could gain access to these feats instead, if the Fighter would be removed.
While I'm not staunchly opposed to dropping the fighter, that's a big one, and worth some thought.
GP
Cu Culain was trained in combat arts by hags/goddesses, which sounds very fighterish to me. Though he also is described as going completely ape-s#!+ in battle, which seems very barbaric. I would keep fighters, but I can see where the iconic D&D fighter or paladin might not fit stylistically. It seems to me that it is really the medieval armor that people associate with fighters and paladins (and the chivalric code associated with the latter) that are incongruous, and not so much the classes per se.
[clink-clink: 2 cents]
*Chimes In* I think that is also gonna be as crutial as class selection - authentic weapons. Specific ones like the Fragarach and general ones like a Falcata (for example having a falchion's stats). Armor and equipment too. Just thinkin it'd add great flavor, and illustration of the weapons shapes (like the keltic short sword)!
If I did pull the fighter, what are thoughts on creating a Clan Warrior class, perhaps using the Pathfinder Ranger as a template, this might even replace the Ranger as well for the setting.
Keep the favored enemy mechanic, add in choose a clan as a favored enemy, due to long-standing clan feuds (only one clan can be chosen).
Of combat styles: Sword and Board, and Spear Wielder
Celts were well known sword and board fighters, as sometimes shields were the only armor available, so replace two weapon combat style with, Pathfinder shield feat chain, also add Tower Shield (as Celts I've learned did use tower shields, in addition to the standard squared oval medium shields.) Other feats would come from Fighter feats like Weapon Specialization feats - as their would be no fighter class in the setting.
Salmon Jump: a verticle high jump of 3 plus half clan warrior level rounded down, if combined with first attack per round using a melee weapon, bypass the opponents shield and shield bonus. Salmon Jump can be used for many non-combat uses as well.
Spear Warrior style: melee, ranged and defensive maneuvars using a spear, and perhaps sling as a secondary ranged weapon for longer distance attacks than spear throwing.
Spear Catching: must have Deflect Arrows as prerequisite, use one attack of opportunity to catch a thrown spear (this would be an advanced feat available at higher level).
Del Chliss: on your first attack, by using a special grip with both hands, the clan warrior can cause one and a half strength as bonus in damage, similar to 2H weapon bonus.
Instead of Ranger spell-casting, tattoos placed by Myrddins (tattoo wizards) can activate the tattoos as if casting the spells they represent. Perhaps these spells might be limited to attack, saves, checks and AC bonuses or effects.
As an aside, since Celts were known to use chariots in battle, the Pathfinder Cavalier, could be altered to a Charioteer.
Thoughts?
GP
If I did pull the fighter, what are thoughts on creating a Clan Warrior class, perhaps using the Pathfinder Ranger as a template, this might even replace the Ranger as well for the setting.
Keep the favored enemy mechanic, add in choose a clan as a favored enemy, due to long-standing clan feuds (only one clan can be chosen).
Of combat styles: Sword and Board, and Spear Wielder
Celts were well known sword and board fighters, as sometimes shields were the only armor available, so replace two weapon combat style with, Pathfinder shield feat chain, also add Tower Shield (as Celts I've learned did use tower shields, in addition to the standard squared oval medium shields.) Other feats would come from Fighter feats like Weapon Specialization feats - as their would be no fighter class in the setting.Salmon Jump: a verticle high jump of 3 plus half clan warrior level rounded down, if combined with first attack per round using a melee weapon, bypass the opponents shield and shield bonus. Salmon Jump can be used for many non-combat uses as well.
Spear Warrior style: melee, ranged and defensive maneuvars using a spear, and perhaps sling as a secondary ranged weapon for longer distance attacks than spear throwing.
Spear Catching: must have Deflect Arrows as prerequisite, use one attack of opportunity to catch a thrown spear (this would be an advanced feat available at higher level).
Del Chliss: on your first attack, by using a special grip with both hands, the clan warrior can cause one and a half strength as bonus in damage, similar to 2H weapon bonus.
Instead of Ranger spell-casting, tattoos placed by Myrddins (tattoo wizards) can activate the tattoos as if casting the spells they represent. Perhaps these spells might be limited to attack, saves, checks and AC bonuses or effects.
As an aside, since Celts were known to use chariots in battle, the Pathfinder Cavalier, could be altered to a Charioteer.
Thoughts?
GP
I have to chime in here and say that IMHO I wouldn't go too far away from the basic classes. It might hurt your audience base. Limiting classes like paladin and monk are totally understandable, but the fighter and ranger may have some up in arms (not myself, but I know a few). I would limit the "no sticking". Adding extra options is always viewed positively as long as they're well balanced. If you're offering different alternatives due to limited weapon selection, this might work out better.
Speaking of the monk, that IS one class I would modify quite a bit, but maybe have an equivalent. With the spear catching idea for example. I'd remove all the "monk" weapons, prehaps give them a stone throwing ability, and add a few light weapons. Bare-knuckled fighters still had their place, but not like the oriental monks.
I'm pretty out of my skull tired right now taking care of my son, so I may have something completely different tomorrow to say. Right now this is just how I see it. FWIW... :D
I did say "IF I did pull the fighter...", as I'm not so sure of doing such a thing. I would limit to no heavy armor, which affects a Fighter's Armor Training. Additionally there would be weapon restrictions due to culture and technology, though Weapons Training could still be used - to keep the fighter and slightly deviate from historical Celtic warriors.
Those few feats listed above could be new Fighter feats for the setting.
Regarding the Salmon Jump feat when used with attack, might be similar to Iaijutsu Strike, where it only works against flat-footed opponents such as first attack per encounter if you beat opponents initiative, or following a use of Shattered Defenses feat.
Of the new combat styles - this could be options for the standard Pathfinder Ranger, instead of removing the ranger. As I said Favored Enemy and other Ranger features are still appropriate - with the tattoos used in place of normal Ranger spell casting. (Sword and board would be replaced by a different weapon style if Fighter is kept.)
Regarding my last point with Cavalier/Charioteer. While Celts did ride horses they weren't known for their cavalry, rather fighting as mounted infantry - ride to battle, then get off your horse and fight. Whereas a Charioteer being a special kind of warrior might work well using the Advanced Player Cavalier class.
Again, nothing cut in stone here, just thoughts and ideas for now.
GP
Ok I've been following this with interest and finally decided to chip in with a few things you might want to consider..
1) Tatooes as a replacement for magical armour,wonderous items etc.Paying for more elaborate versions could account for the varying power levels of the items.
2)Gestetai...basically a variation on the Frenzied Berserker PrC..wild naked warriors rampaging ahead of the main battle lines
3)Geasa..the ultimate doom for most celtic heroes..in the end even Cuchulain fell to his.This is going to be a tough one because players never like to feel they are not in control of their characters
I like your first suggestion - since I have a feeling that the setting would have less magic items available, and I did want to give tattoos to non-wizard classes, making tattoos replacement for certain magic armors and wondrous items could be a good way to diversify the availability of magic item enhancements. I was thinking something along these lines already, but I wasn't sure of doing that would be unbalancing.
I haven't yet looked at PrC, still trying to determine the base classes for the setting Though the setting should have some, perhaps the Gestetai could be something like the existing barbarian class, if not a barbarian PrC.
Regarding Geasa - some RPG settings include positive/negative birth traits where everyone is born with a gift and bane from the gods. Using this as an optional rule for the setting, create tables for Birth Gifts and Birth Banes each with a list of twenty or so moderate buffs and curses that players have. Neither the gifts or banes are overly powerful, more flavor perhaps, where only limited situations would either apply. Roll once per table.
Make this optional only, however, if players don't want a Geasa placed on them.
Good thoughts.
GP
I didn't mean to sound too critical earlier, perhaps a few more of these? :D
Limiting any cultural equipment makes sense to me (no plate mail for example)
If I did pull the fighter, what are thoughts on creating a Clan Warrior class, perhaps using the Pathfinder Ranger as a template, this might even replace the Ranger as well for the setting.
Keep the favored enemy mechanic, add in choose a clan as a favored enemy, due to long-standing clan feuds (only one clan can be chosen).
Of combat styles: Sword and Board, and Spear Wielder
Celts were well known sword and board fighters, as sometimes shields were the only armor available, so replace two weapon combat style with, Pathfinder shield feat chain, also add Tower Shield (as Celts I've learned did use tower shields, in addition to the standard squared oval medium shields.) Other feats would come from Fighter feats like Weapon Specialization feats - as their would be no fighter class in the setting.Salmon Jump: a verticle high jump of 3 plus half clan warrior level rounded down, if combined with first attack per round using a melee weapon, bypass the opponents shield and shield bonus. Salmon Jump can be used for many non-combat uses as well.
Spear Warrior style: melee, ranged and defensive maneuvars using a spear, and perhaps sling as a secondary ranged weapon for longer distance attacks than spear throwing.
Spear Catching: must have Deflect Arrows as prerequisite, use one attack of opportunity to catch a thrown spear (this would be an advanced feat available at higher level).
Del Chliss: on your first attack, by using a special grip with both hands, the clan warrior can cause one and a half strength as bonus in damage, similar to 2H weapon bonus.
Instead of Ranger spell-casting, tattoos placed by Myrddins (tattoo wizards) can activate the tattoos as if casting the spells they represent. Perhaps these spells might be limited to attack, saves, checks and AC bonuses or effects.
As an aside, since Celts were known to use chariots in battle, the Pathfinder Cavalier, could be altered to a Charioteer.
Thoughts?
GP
This all sounds very authentic and cool. I especially like the "hated clan" idea, and the charioteer class (or prestige class, maybe?). Keep up the good work, GP!
Ok I've been following this with interest and finally decided to chip in with a few things you might want to consider..
1) Tatooes as a replacement for magical armour,wonderous items etc.Paying for more elaborate versions could account for the varying power levels of the items.
2)Gestetai...basically a variation on the Frenzied Berserker PrC..wild naked warriors rampaging ahead of the main battle lines
3)Geasa..the ultimate doom for most celtic heroes..in the end even Cuchulain fell to his.This is going to be a tough one because players never like to feel they are not in control of their characters
FWIW, I like the first 2 suggestions, especially the tatooes instead of armor (which plays into #2 well).
Posting so I can follow easily....
Have you tried using the RSS feature? I find it very useful.
Looking at the PF Bestiary under Fey, all I see are: Dryad, Mite, Nymph, Pixie and Satyr. Pretty slim pickins' there. So, of course porting over many of the other standard Fey from 3.5, as well as new ones as mentioned earlier in the post and a couple odd ones that don't really work even though they existed in 3.5
For example the Banshee is the ghost of an evil female elf. While in Celtic lore the Bean Sidhe (Irish) and Bean Si (Scottish) both pronounced the same as "banshee" are a type of spirit, but a human woman who died in child birth, who haunts her own clan, wailing as a premonition of death. Though she should have the "banshee wail" ability, she really works more as a plot device in an adventure.
Including those not found in previous Monster Manuals, as well as new monsters, here's an early compiled list: Apple Tree Man (male spirit dryad of sorts), Asrai (water faeries), Aughisky or Each Uisge (water horse), Baobhan Sidhe (vampire like fey), Barguest (bogy), Bauchan (Buckawn), Ben-Varrey/Ceasg (Manx mermaid), Brollachan (shapeless monster), Brownie, Cu Sith (Cooshee faerie dog), Fachan (bizzare one legged, one hand, one eye monster)...
I could do this all night long, but I need to reference the old Monster Manuals. If anyone has suggested Fey to throw at me, I'd welcome it, and check out what I can. I figure some defined number like 20 or 50 Fey beings would be a good number to include in a setting manual.
Thoughts?
GP
There must be stealing of cattle. Stealing of cattle, killing of each other, and jumping-over of forts in order to prove excessive manliness.
The above are a summation of the core focuses of Irish mythology.
before someone gets pissed, I'm joking. Partly.
More seriously, magic items are not so rare in Celtic (or any real-world) mythology as a lot of anti-tricking-out-your-character purists like to think. You'd probably be okay including a fair number of them, although perhaps not quite as many as in normal Dnd - and tending towards the wondrous or the combat-related (luckstone, magic weapon/armor, etc) as opposed to the bland utility (handy haversack).
Of course there would be dragons, and also a giant poisonous snake-like "dragon" called a worm, found on isles on lakes.
Have you checked out the linnorms in the PF SRD? I ask only because I didn't notice them there for some time, being as I didn't remember them from 3.5 and thus wasn't looking. They are very heavily based on old Northern European versions of the dragon and would seem to generally fit your bill (poisonous, lake-dwelling)
There must be stealing of cattle. Stealing of cattle, killing of each other, and jumping-over of forts in order to prove excessive manliness.
The above are a summation of the core focuses of Irish legend.
More seriously, magic items are not so rare in Celtic (or any real-world) legend as a lot of anti-tricking-out-your-character purists like to think. You'd probably be okay including a fair number of them, although perhaps not quite as many as in normal Dnd - and tending towards the wondrous or the combat-related (luckstone, magic weapon/armor, etc) as opposed to the bland utility (handy haversack).
Of course there would be dragons, and also a giant poisonous snake-like "dragon" called a worm, found on isles on lakes.
Have you checked out the linnorms in the PF SRD? I ask only because I didn't notice them there for some time, being as I didn't remember them from 3.5 and thus wasn't looking. They are very heavily based on old Northern European versions of the dragon and would seem to generally fit your bill (poisonous, lake-dwelling)
Bards (Skalds), Druids and Sorcerers would all work neatly into a Celtic setting.
Armor would need a look at (no plate!) as would shields (no Tower Shields).
Actually, the term for bard is... (drumroll) bard. Skald is a Norse/Germanic term.
If you're going to be making a fairly self-contained setting, I'd consider upping the bonuses that shields grant across the board to compensate for less advanced armor. Shields in general were much more critical in combat before the invention of more advanced armors such as Dnd's full plate. Dnd's shields are in a 'post full plate' stage of being rather less relevant to combat than armor - before the armor developments, the reverse was true historically.
There must be stealing of cattle. Stealing of cattle, killing of each other, and jumping-over of forts in order to prove excessive manliness.
The above are a summation of the core focuses of Irish legend.
More seriously, magic items are not so rare in Celtic (or any real-world) legend as a lot of anti-tricking-out-your-character purists like to think. You'd probably be okay including a fair number of them, although perhaps not quite as many as in normal Dnd - and tending towards the wondrous or the combat-related (luckstone, magic weapon/armor, etc) as opposed to the bland utility (handy haversack).
Of course there would be dragons, and also a giant poisonous snake-like "dragon" called a worm, found on isles on lakes.Have you checked out the linnorms in the PF SRD? I ask only because I didn't notice them there for some time, being as I didn't remember them from 3.5 and thus wasn't looking. They are very heavily based on old Northern European versions of the dragon and would seem to generally fit your bill (poisonous, lake-dwelling)
Bards (Skalds), Druids and Sorcerers would all work neatly into a Celtic setting.
Armor would need a look at (no plate!) as would shields (no Tower Shields).Actually, the term for bard is... (drumroll) bard. Skald is a Norse/Germanic term.
If you're going to be making a fairly self-contained setting, I'd consider upping the bonuses that shields grant across the board to compensate for less advanced armor. Shields in general were much more critical in combat before the invention of more advanced armors such as Dnd's full plate. Dnd's shields are in a 'post full plate' stage of being rather less relevant to combat than armor - before the armor developments, the reverse was true historically.
Yea I know a Skald is Nordic but the Real World description of a Skald fits well with Real World (little b) bard.
I'm Cornish and my family have a huge Cornish connection. My uncle is a Cornish Bard and is a regular at the Gorseth which is about retelling of folktales. Another good friend is the county archaeologist and has excavted many important Cornish Iron Age sites. Chysauster is a real beauty link and the video
This is a video of the parade at the Gorseth. Ignore the bloody morris dancers the boys (and girls) in blue are the druids. This has been going on longer than we have been speaking English in Kernow.
I could do this all night long, but I need to reference the old Monster Manuals. If anyone has suggested Fey to throw at me, I'd welcome it, and check out what I can. I figure some defined number like 20 or 50 Fey beings would be a good number to include in a setting manual.
Thoughts?
GP
Leprechauns! "There after me lucky charms!"
Thanks for all the suggestions - this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for!
Several points:
1. While I have the PF Bestiary PDF, I haven't done the total "look see" so I didn't notice the Linnorns before. I also didn't recognize the name, so that's partly why - but now that I have, I say "Yes!" Linnorns are much more like Celtic Dragons than traditional chromatic dragons. I'm glad you pointed them out to me, Coriat!
2. Bards vs. Skalds. While I want to be heavily influenced by the historical record using those elements to help make my Picto-Celtic setting more unique, there is an argument to stay as close to Pathfinder as possible, to better serve the Pathfinder gaming community. Magic isn't real in the historical record, so Skalds in that way are more following true history - but this is for a fantasy setting so Bards should be able to use magic. That said, I might want to reference Skalds in a flavor way, yet still keeping the essentially PF Bard. (I think its very cool that your grandfather is a Cornish Bard, Spacelard!)
3. Also at Spacelard - I love the link to Chysauster document. I will be making the map for the home clan village for the campaign setting and this will be an excellent reference for creating an authentic looking village. More links like this would be very helpful, moreso than just game mechanics issues.
4. Cattle raiding is a big time Celtic activity and that type of incident will defintely exist in the campaign and mentioned in the handbook portion of the setting, so you don't have to over emphasize that!
Thanks for all the ideas!
GP
If anyone has suggested Fey to throw at me, I'd welcome it, and check out what I can. I figure some defined number like 20 or 50 Fey beings would be a good number to include in a setting manual.
Thoughts?
GP
Grig
SprigganKorred
Thanks for all the suggestions - this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for!
Several points:
1. While I have the PF Bestiary PDF, I haven't done the total "look see" so I didn't notice the Linnorns before. I also didn't recognize the name, so that's partly why - but now that I have, I say "Yes!" Linnorns are much more like Celtic Dragons than traditional chromatic dragons. I'm glad you pointed them out to me, Coriat!
2. Bards vs. Skalds. While I want to be heavily influenced by the historical record using those elements to help make my Picto-Celtic setting more unique, there is an argument to stay as close to Pathfinder as possible, to better serve the Pathfinder gaming community. Magic isn't real in the historical record, so Skalds in that way are more following true history - but this is for a fantasy setting so Bards should be able to use magic. That said, I might want to reference Skalds in a flavor way, yet still keeping the essentially PF Bard. (I think its very cool that your grandfather is a Cornish Bard, Spacelard!)
3. Also at Spacelard - I love the link to Chysauster document. I will be making the map for the home clan village for the campaign setting and this will be an excellent reference for creating an authentic looking village. More links like this would be very helpful, moreso than just game mechanics issues.
4. Cattle raiding is a big time Celtic activity and that type of incident will defintely exist in the campaign and mentioned in the handbook portion of the setting, so you don't have to over emphasize that!
Thanks for all the ideas!
GP
No problem.
I will post links to various Cornish Celtic bits and bobs. I actually live in walking distance to an Iron Age hill fort complete with defensive ditches the works.So would cultural odds and sods be more what you are looking for, daily grind?
There was no writing (hence oral tradition) with the exception of Ogham script, link takes you to a site with the alphabet and examples.
The Men-An-Tol is interesting. Its actually Bronze Age but its mythology developed in later years. The site also links to several other stones and ancient sites all around.
And don't forget kilts!
I got told off when young for trying on my uncle's "silly hat"! Those darn Bards!
Thinking more on Fey, I was exploring ENWorld Forums and found a thread by Raven Crowking from 2004 that heavily uses Fairy Tale storylines in the use of Fey.
As quoted from his more recent thread:
IMHO, the important thing when making fey seem....well....fey is that each fey creature (or group of fey creatures) represents something else. They are not just races with ecologies, they are representations of powerful undercurrents in nature and human relations.
Then he susequently describes his adventure into Fairy land:
3.0 Fey Adventure[/url/]
One of the links for Fairy Stories he points to is:
[url=http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/]Andrew Lang collected Fey Tales
What I especially like about this kind of adventure is that some of the encountered Fey are very weak, yet are there to be helpful (if the PCs manage to do a service for them, which must be repaid) and through tips and clues given are of tremendous help - though in a fight, they'd probably be an easy kill. Some of the Fey beings are extremely powerful, yet if rules are followed, proper manners are used, the encounter becomes a straight foward and non-combat encounter. If on the other hand things get ugly - heads into combat, it could proved disasterous.
This is greatly inspirational stuff!
I have as a resource Katherine Briggs Encyclopedia of Fairys (had it for 20 years), and though I've referenced the various beings for encounters in adventures, I've never really used the accompanying tales with a particular fey creature. By Raven Crowking's description, it is crucial to use the fairy tale story elements to make Fey really work in a Celtic setting.
In that encyclopedia there are many entries regarding: Fairy Borrowing, Fairy Brides, Fairy Food, Fairy Funerals, Fairy Market, Fairy Morality, Fairy Thefts, Faults condemned by Faires - which all seem more important than the Fairies themselves. How PCs treat fairies or respond to fairy actions have serious ramifications to their health and life.
Long or short campaign, I see a visit to fairy land as taking an entire module, perhaps to retrieve some powerful magic device to use in the war against the Winter Hag.
GP
Next subject of discussion is Human Sacrafice in the Celtic world. I have three points regarding this. However, I want to make it clear I have some Irish/Scottish heritage, so I don't mean to put a negative light on Celtic peoples today, as the idea of Human Sacrafice is very dark to us today, these were ancient practices that were deemed necessary to ritual survival in ancient times.
First point is that it was the Romans who introduced the idea of Druids performing human sacrafices as part of their ritual practice. The Roman authors did this to show to the rest of the world how wretched the Celts were and that legions should be sent to stop this practice. This is more a form of propaganda to incite the Emperors to send legions off to conquer these barbaric people.
Next, I read book which for the life of me, I can't remember the title or author, but was basically a historic retelling of the Arthur tales based on archaeologic and historic evidence, rather than the traditional Arthurian Cycle. The first chapter involved a druid leading a ritual where several Saxon slaves mostly children and the elderly were being man-handled into a dug pit where "executioners" with clubs were smiting the slaves in a ritual sacrafice. In the story, several clans men went on a raid and seven of them were slain in combat. The druid, in a ritual of balance was slaying seven slaves to equal out the loss of the seven warriors. I don't know how much this is based on reality, but their is evidence that the Celts did such rituals.
Last, there is an obscure horror movie from the early 1970's starring Christopher Lee, as a mayor of a small coastal village on the Isle of Man, who was also secretly the village druid. The movie was called "Wicker Man" This movie was set in the modern. Someone has gone missing almost a year ago on a visit to this village from London. A private investigator has been hired to discover the truth in the incident. While asking questions among the various store owners and local police he is stirring up trouble, as everyone in this village still practices druidic rites. In the end the PI is knocked unconscious and when he awakens he finds himself bound inside the torso of a giant human effigy called the Wicker Man. The whole village and druid chants as they set the effigy to flames burning the PI inside like being burnt at the stake. End of movie.
I think I want to interject the idea of human sacrafice in the setting as an annual ritual.
In many ways, I feel if I follow this line of distinction, combined with a darker, older view of Fey - the setting could have a very dark flavor.
Thoughts?
GP
Also in respect to the Fey post, above the previous one, where Raven Crowking introduces the Green Knight tale from the Arthurian Cycle - though I hadn't realized it at the time that someone else used this story, I thought including the Green Knight's Tale might be something interesting to introduce into a module.
An ogre in green armor challenges the party with the following. Take three smites at me now, I will offer no defense and if you do not slay me, promise that I shall return in a year and a day and be allowed to do the same to you. If agreed upon, the third smite takes off the ogre's head, at which point the ogre bends down and picks up his head. The head says, well then, I shall return in a year and a day...
This perfectly follows the kind of dark flavor which fits well in a Fey influenced Celtic setting - and to scare the hell of players in it. I want to work in other dark tales of this nature to include in a Fey based adventure.
GP
I'm usually all about reality in gaming, but this is one of those times I have to suggest seperating the regular campaign setting and the stuff that may be much more adult like content like human sacrifice. I know back in the 80s AD&D was heavily opposed by parents who feared the content of our games. We have shed this negative persona for the most part. I know some parents who play pathfinder with their teens (relatives too) and I know this would either prevent them from using you product or speaking out against it.
I mention this because I really like the concept of this project and want to see it flourish. Also, I don't pull punches when it comes to opinions and development (much like I would rather tell someone they have a booger instead of letting them roam with it showing). That said, there is still room for such content, but I wouldn't put it in the main release myself, I would have a small add-on suppliment to include it.
This is fantasy gaming and there are a few of us that would prefer to skirt the topic of canabalism, human sacrifice, and sexual abuse. I personally clarify what content is to be used and not at the begining of the games, but I have been in a game where such content came up unannounced and other players got up and walked out of the game permanantly. To emphasis again, I want this project ot do well.
Anyone else wanna weigh in on the subject?
Also in respect to the Fey post, above the previous one, where Raven Crowking introduces the Green Knight tale from the Arthurian Cycle - though I hadn't realized it at the time that someone else used this story, I thought including the Green Knight's Tale might be something interesting to introduce into a module.
An ogre in green armor challenges the party with the following. Take three smites at me now, I will offer no defense and if you do not slay me, promise that I shall return in a year and a day and be allowed to do the same to you. If agreed upon, the third smite takes off the ogre's head, at which point the ogre bends down and picks up his head. The head says, well then, I shall return in a year and a day...
This perfectly follows the kind of dark flavor which fits well in a Fey influenced Celtic setting - and to scare the hell of players in it. I want to work in other dark tales of this nature to include in a Fey based adventure.
GP
I love the macabre flavor this offers! I was curious if you had you heard of the tales where people disappear and arrive in the lands of the fey, and when they do so are offered food and beverage from the denizens. If they consume anything from the plane there, they cannot leave for a long long time. I can't remember the soure, but I figured you amy know.
One point Raven Crowking mentioned in his thread on EnWorld is that Fairy Food while more delicious and heady than any human food, yet offers no nutritive value. While in the Fey Land, which all is twilight, time seems to stand still. Humans in the Fey Land do not need to eat or drink as time is not passing - they can go for days and weeks without eating or drinking. However, hunger and thirst may still exist, despite this, yet starvation would never occur. If a PC were to eat some fairy food or to drink fairy water or wine, they would become addicted. While in Fey Land, this has no negative effect. However, once they leave fairy land, those who tasted fairy food would desire nothing else, yet in the PC's real world not eating means starvation. Thus eating fairy food causes an addiction and a curse which can kill you.
Good point regarding the human sacrafice issue, I just thought I'd bring it up. On the other hand it could do well to move this Celtic ritual to practices of the Hag, Ogres, and giants which would put the negative influence on them and not onto the heroes or their people. This would make the ogres and giants much more grisly and would lessen any incensed feelings by players put in that situation as a Celtic ritual.
Acknowledged.
On the other hand, I could take the Minoan/Athens twist where each year so many males and females from each clan are required to appease the Winter Hag and making the coming winter less harsh - where these individuals become sacrafices to the Ogre/Hags. Like the old story of putting a virgin in front of a Dragon's cave as sacrafice to appease it from causing havoc onto the countryside.
GP
I think I want to interject the idea of human sacrafice in the setting as an annual ritual.
In many ways, I feel if I follow this line of distinction, combined with a darker, older view of Fey - the setting could have a very dark flavor.
Thoughts?
I doubt you will find very much historical information on ancient British human sacrifice. You certainly won't find any contemporary accounts that aren't the Roman ones you already cited. There's simply very little information about religion in the British Isles prior to the arrival of the Romans.
You could read up about bog bodies or such, I guess. But 90% of that would be pure speculation on the part of whoever is writing about them. So if you're going to do something with human sacrifice, what you think is right for the setting would probably take precedence over any historical record.
As I said in my last post the possibility of human sacrafice really seems to belong in the hands of ogres, hags and giants, not the Picto-Celtic clans.
I totally agree the only historic references are those of the propagandist Roman authors, including Julius Caesar. And the other references in my post are movies like the Wicker Man, or the novel I mentioned, which are not necessarily factual in any way.
WickedKGames made it point that such could be problematic depending on who was playing such a game and could seriously backfire on me and my setting. Best not to go that way.
It was really just a randon thought on my part, while exploring things Celtic.
In any other direction, dark fantasy is a genre I prefer to other styles, but dark doesn't have to include the truly horrific in human practices, and still be dark. Using the old fairie lore is plenty dark enough to not have to go that route.
WickedK has said it plainly enough - I don't need to include that line of thinking in such a setting. So don't worry, my mind is now set on not doing that.
Again, I'm looking for feedback, even if that means, "Hey, moron, don't do that idea - you're only asking for trouble!"
Its all good.
GP
As I said in my last post the possibility of human sacrafice really seems to belong in the hands of ogres, hags and giants, not the Picto-Celtic clans.
I totally agree the only historic references are those of the propagandist Roman authors, including Julius Caesar. And the other references in my post are movies like the Wicker Man, or the novel I mentioned, which are not necessarily factual in any way.
WickedKGames made it point that such could be problematic depending on who was playing such a game and could seriously backfire on me and my setting. Best not to go that way.
It was really just a randon thought on my part, while exploring things Celtic.
In any other direction, dark fantasy is a genre I prefer to other styles, but dark doesn't have to include the truly horrific in human practices, and still be dark. Using the old fairie lore is plenty dark enough to not have to go that route.
WickedK has said it plainly enough - I don't need to include that line of thinking in such a setting. So don't worry, my mind is now set on not doing that.
Again, I'm looking for feedback, even if that means, "Hey, moron, don't do that idea - you're only asking for trouble!"
Its all good.
GP
There is no bad ideas in the development stage. :) I didn't mean to totally shoot down the idea of a macabre expansion, I just think it should be seperate. In one group I play in the PCs are more afraid of having their characters captured than having them slain in battle. We use the mechanic from Tell Me Now. The scars left by psychological trauma is far worset then the physical ones. It makes for VERY intense gameplay. I'm not a comic book guy, but even I know about how Batman reacted to the Joker killing one of the Robins.
On the other hand, my other group freaked out the first time they saw a ghoul gnawing their favorite innocent PC via scrying. I had to have a sit down to keep my game from falling apart (didn't know it would hit them so hard). They're more docile in accepting fear and complusion effects.
Just wanted to add this clarification. :D
No problem, I was responding to Coriat's point that human sacrafice and Celts are only based on Roman propaganda and not necessarily on any other historical accounts, if such a thing exists.
No reason to skew Celts into such activity. In order to keep the human sacrafice, cannibalism and other dark activities in this setting, they really belong to the Ogres, Hags, and Giants - as one would expect such from them. So I'll keep it in the setting, just separate them from the PCs clans and move it towards the monstrous ones.
Another recent movie I've seen (again, can't think of the name) had a bog body that was pulled from the peat, which "thawed" out and awakened into a kind of mummy. The idea in the movie was the bog body belonged to a dark druidic priestess - that idea would work for one type of undead for the setting. Most Celtic undead seem to reside in ghost types, but bog mummies certainly belong in the setting as well, as well as the usual skeleton types, etc.
GP
How's it coming?
Hard copy here, but I'd still be okay with providing you with the pdf...
*EDIT: made it a link...
+1 for that resource.
I have a copy and it is a good read!
Sorry, I had to finish a map commission for a publisher (will be done with that tonight). Although I will post more soon for this setting idea, I have to do a rewrite of the second adventure for my other published setting - Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, as it will be published as an imprint under Rite Publishing. Once that's out of the way, I have a couple of small cartography jobs, but will be jumping on this as well.
I'm also working on a map entry for this year's One Page Dungeon Map - only about a third done (here's a preview of it so far...) Lair of the Lich
Plus I've been giving Tejon, a bit more time to work on the RPG Superstar.
I haven't forgotten this thread - just lots of work got in the way all of a sudden.
Plus I've been giving Tejon, a bit more time to work on the RPG Superstar.
Kicked my own ass. :)
What sort of contributions were you hoping to get from me?
Sounds like a really fun campaign!
I wouldn't drop any of the base classes; I've played in campaigns that have restricted player choice of class and race, and it wasn't fun at all. If you give a flavorful enough background to the players, they'll generally gravitate to the "prefered" flavor of class.
Instead of dropping the wizard class, swap out Scribe Scroll for Spell Mastery. When a wizard gets to 3rd level and gets new levels of spells, he can spend his feat for another Spell Mastery. It makes wizards expensive to be, feat-wise, but also makes them really valuable in their versatility and earlier access to more powerful arcane spells. They can spend their bonus wizard feats on metamagic and item creation feats if they want.
@Tejon - beyond the Iron Mage, advice, critiques and suggestions are always in order. Perhaps you have more feelings on what a Pictish setting should be like, especially in thinking of the fluff for your Iron Mage.
@Smilodan - if you read a few more posts down from that first one, I've opted to create a Tattoo wizard - no spell books, but magical spells are recorded on the wizard's body in the form of tattoos. Not that your idea isn't worthy, but this way wizards unchanged mechanically, other than replacing their spellbooks.
I've wrapped up the map commission, almost done with another map, then will wrap up the adventure for Kaidan. Give me a few more days and I'll be back at this thread with a vengeance!
I see Bastion Press owns a 3.0 3pp product called Faeries - I really wish I could find it, it doesn't seem to exist as a PDF, would be a great reference from what I hear.
GP
Avalanche Press came out with Little People - a d20 Guide to Fairies. It sounds like it'd be pretty useful. I was reading over it and you may wanna take a look at it. I'm not sure what all is open content and what is not, but it includes the OGL 1.0a.
Post a link, I will pickup/download a copy!
Thanks
GP
Avalanche Press came out with Little People - a d20 Guide to Fairies. It sounds like it'd be pretty useful. I was reading over it and you may wanna take a look at it. I'm not sure what all is open content and what is not, but it includes the OGL 1.0a.
The great thing about fairies is that almost all of them are OC because they are mythological. I'm sure there are a few that were created for games, but most you can find in "fairy tales" that are hundreds or even thousands of yrs. old. And mechanical stats, I believe, can't be copyrighted, but I could be mistaken.
I've got two issues regarding faeries:
1. In the previous editions of D&D faeries exist, there are stats for them so there is an expectation to find similar ones in a Pathfinder edition.
2. However, from a mythological point of view - the tiny faeries most commonly found in D&D lore are anachronistic to the Heroic Age. The grigs, sprites and other diminuitive faeries common in D&D Faerie lore appeared in the Elizabethan Period (15th and 16th centuries) as believed by the common folk of Western Europe. See Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream.
In many cases the tiny faeries reflect boogie men that punish children for disobedience that mothers profess.
The further back in time you go hunting faerie lore, the larger the faeries become. If you find sources of faeries from the Age of Heroes (which is the period my setting is intended), faeries were often human sized or larger. There had always been dwarfish fey - duegar, blue caps, red caps, trow - since the earliest times, but they are comparatively like dwarves or halflings in size (3 to 4 tall).
The problem being the diminuitive fey of modern faerie lore is the most common fey trope in D&D.
Should I cater to that, or try to depict fey from an earlier time.
As an aside fey origins are believed to be one of three types:
1.Remnants of earlier (conquered) peoples hiding in the remote wilderness reaches who sneak into border farms to exchange services for food - this type forms the typical "brownie" type fey being in later times.
2. Half forgotten deities of those earlier (conquered) peoples that are still remembered by the conquering peoples, who acknowledge their existence, though as fey and not deities - which account for most water faeries, lake and river faeries, mountain faeries; those residing in rare geographic features - waterfalls, hidden valleys, etc.
3. Remembered Ghosts and ghost stories - the remembered dead. In later iterations the ghost story is forgotten, but the ghost is remembered and becomes a fey in later times.
The Iron Age Celts/Picts fit with the Age of Heroes and the larger and more integrated faeries of ancient beliefs.
While I'd like to focus on those earlier, larger fey beings - am I cutting off part of the fan base by not catering to more recent Elizabethan fey ideas - the wee folk.
Edit: regarding faeries and flying. Many fey had the ability to fly even from ancient beliefs, however most would fly (at will) without the use of wings. Many faeries rode twigs and sticks of thorn trees, much like witches were believed to use broomsticks - in fact much of Witch trope of the Elizabethan period is derived from fey lore.
Those butterfly winged and gossomar winged fey common in modern faerie tropes did not show up until the Victorian Era, with the start of Spirtualism in the latter 1800's - fey beliefs of 500 years ago to thousands of years ago never had wings - that's a very modern trope.
How do I handle anachronistic expectations vs. mythical faerie lore???
GP
I've got two issues regarding faeries:
1. In the previous editions of D&D faeries exist, there are stats for them so there is an expectation to find similar ones in a Pathfinder edition.
2. However, from a mythological point of view - the tiny faeries most commonly found in D&D lore are anachronistic to the Heroic Age. The grigs, sprites and other diminuitive faeries common in D&D Faerie lore appeared in the Elizabethan Period (15th and 16th centuries) as believed by the common folk of Western Europe. See Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream.
In many cases the tiny faeries reflect boogie men that punish children for disobedience that mothers profess.
The further back in time you go hunting faerie lore, the larger the faeries become. If you find sources of faeries from the Age of Heroes (which is the period my setting is intended), faeries were often human sized or larger. There had always been dwarfish fey - duegar, blue caps, red caps, trow - since the earliest times, but they are comparatively like dwarves or halflings in size (3 to 4 tall).
The problem being the diminuitive fey of modern faerie lore is the most common fey trope in D&D.
Should I cater to that, or try to depict fey from an earlier time.
As an aside fey origins are believed to be one of three types:
1.Remnants of earlier (conquered) peoples hiding in the remote wilderness reaches who sneak into border farms to exchange services for food - this type forms the typical "brownie" type fey being in later times.
2. Half forgotten deities of those earlier (conquered) peoples that are still remembered by the conquering peoples, who acknowledge their existence, though as fey and not deities - which account for most water faeries, lake and river faeries, mountain faeries; those residing in rare geographic features - waterfalls, hidden valleys, etc.
3. Remembered Ghosts and ghost stories - the remembered dead. In later iterations the ghost story is forgotten, but the ghost is remembered and becomes a fey in later times....
I like the Victorian conception of fey as much as any other lover of fantasy, but my 2 coppers? Go with the authentic Age of Heroes fey, the "Tuatha De Danan".
There are plenty of settings that feature Victorian fey, but none (that I know of) that portray them as they were in Celtic myth. This would make your setting stand out, and it would also educate gamers about the origins of fey myths (you could include sidebars or whatnot explaining why your fey aren't winged, diminutive pixies that ride on toads and live in mushrooms).
White Dwarf 38 has an article on Fey critters.
On the fluff side for fey, I have the best resource, I think. Katherine Briggs Encyclopedia of Faires, Hobgoblins, Bogies and Other Supernatural Creatures - a complete guide to the fey of the British Isles. So I have a good idea of which ones to include - of course being more a research tool, as it is not intended as a game mechanics tool.
I know that many of the beings within that guide already exist in past editions of D&D - think the original Fiend Folio has many of them. However, I want to emphasize the older ones, especially for this Age of Heroes setting.
Now its looking at various OGL and non-OGL sources for comparisons, or just start from scratch creating creatures for Pathfinder.
@SpaceLard - not a paying member of RPGNet, so I don't have access to White Dwarf (tight on funds, but maybe I can swing a one year account to get access.)
@WickedKGames - I looked for that Fairies book, but can't see it as an available product.
As mentioned earlier, I've heard good things on Bastion Press's Fairy book for D20, but can't find that available either.
It most likely means looking at old Monster Manuals and trying to convert, along with using the PF Bestiary monster creation rules and work from scratch. More work than I wanted, but oh well.
Thanks for the help.
GP
Looks like there is still some stock at that price. :)
Hello GP. I was pointed toward this thread as I am a huge Celtic flavored DND fan and my friend mentioned that it looked like "something up my alley" was brewing.
I must say, I really like what I have been reading. Since you have been actively looking for feedback, please allow me to say these things:
1. Do not be afraid to deviate from the norm. You may not want the extra work, but using classes such as the oracle and witch instead of wizards is especially cool. Perhaps you could state right up front that your preferred classes are such and such, but if you absolutely wanted to play a wizard - this is the alternative (tattoo or iron mage). Take Heavy Armor Proficiency and Tower Shield Prof away from the Fighter and let him choose another feat. Not broken at all. You could also make the wizard and druid into prestige classes. The more unique, the better. I must say that I have the most fun playing in campaigns that are unique - such as the Midnight setting from Fantasy Flight Games. The satisfaction that you have made something unique is high enough reward, but when you get people clamoring to buy your stuff (as I did midnight errata), then well, the reward is monetary, and that is icing on the cake.
2. Do not be afraid to deviate from the norm. Absolutely go with the Iron Age Fey. Do not be afraid to think outside of the box either. What if ALL creatures other than humans were fey. The Seelie Court admires and encourages the growth of mankind. The Unseelie Court (now held by the Winter Hag) wishes to wipe them from the last true free realm of the fey - the celtic isles. Just thoughts. Also, check out the 3.0 Ravenloft from Sword And Sorcery. Lots of fey creatures their. What if Ogres had the regenerative powers of the trolls? What about aquatic Ogres? Do not be afraid. I have some fey d20 books, I will look up titles and print them here later.
3. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO DEVIATE FROM THE NORM. Perhaps the Sacrifice is indeed tribute to the Winter Hag, and she uses the unfortunate's souls in nasty rituals. Each Village is expected to cough up a sacrifice, in fact these could be your PC's, and they allow themselves to be taken to the Winter Hag's lair, and must escape to strike the blow. Or they escape the slave train while en route to the lair, and now must avoid not only the troubles of the environment, roaming monsters, but also the Slave Hunters of the Winter Hag, and the Village Redeemers who prefer to keep things as they are - which means a select few in power, and perhaps not following the ways of the people.
Please forgive my rant, and the over use of the word unique. I hope this gives you something to chew on. I look forward to hearing what you have to say, and in the future, purchasing your product.
..... Also, check out the 3.0 Ravenloft from Sword And Sorcery. Lots of fey creatures their.
...there. Not their. sheesh.
Sorry didn't proof read.
Sorry been busy creating maps for publishers and working on my other partially published setting, Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, but I plan to get back into this sometime this week.
I always go for the unique, but at the same time, I try to please the general PF audience so I have both standard classes and new/deviated classes. I think I'm going in a properly unique development of the Celtic idea. I may have some old 2e Ravenloft material to look at as well - they did have some cool dark fey (I have to dig them out of the basement...)
Good thoughts and suggestions.
GP