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For a while I've been looking at the idea of developing an Iron Age Celtic setting, and now am looking at such for Pathfinder RPG. The prime requesite that sets this setting apart from a standard Pathfinder RPG setting is there is no written language - which means no Wizards; Sorcerers and Bards, yes, perhaps a Witch, but no such thing as a spell book. This would also mean there would probably be less magic items available - probably. In the divine arena: Druids, spell casting Rangers and perhaps a specific kind of Oracle would be the only divine casters in the setting; no Clerics or Paladins. The martial classes would gain more significance, even at higher levels.
The question is how badly would illiteracy (and no wizards) nerf a Pathfinder game. I have the inklings of possibly developing this as a commercial setting - with a complete 6 part AP in mind, but am not sure how much limiting the classes to lesser spell-casters would affect the game. Would it be practical to even try?
One thought would be to include some type of spell-casting tattoo artist (whether divine or arcane, I'm not quite sure.) Buffing enchantments in permanent or must be activated kind of effects are bound to tattoos worn by all classes in the setting. Not sure how powerful such buffs could be in an otherwise magic "weakened" setting.
I love the older ruins of Britain and Northern Europe: broch towers, dun island forts, crannog villages on stilts over lakes, barrow mounds, and tiny walled patchwork of small agricultural fields - all of the Iron Age, thus both bronze and iron goods - swords and spoons exist, jewelry and other trappings that easily fall into Pathfinder items and equipment.
I have a Winter Hag, living goddess of ogres, giants and hags, mustering an army from the cold northern glaciated highlands to attack the Celtic Lands to the south, while she enacts a dark and ancient ritual in an attempt to bring back the Ice Age, where her worshippers were once the dominating race of the northern world. The PCs would eventually try to stop the ritual and defeat the goddess herself...
With the slight nerfing of magic, with the loss of the cleric and wizard, threats such as monsters, disease, death effects, etc, become much more lethal and scary. Now I'm rambling...
Thoughts?
GP
I've got two main thoughts other then "that sounds very cool".
The first is would you be aiming for more realism in your setting or would it fairly "normal" high fantasy with a Celtic-y twist?
The second is why no sorcerers? For that matter why no clerics? Neither class has anything inherently literacy focused like the wizard (which I can understand ditching. (Though I'm fairly certain the Iron Age Celts had writing it just wasn't very wide spread, Ogham did exist after all.) In fact as far as the I'd say they fit quite nicely. There are a number of legends about the gods and the fae having children with mortals and the resulting kids being not quite human which sounds very sorcerer like to me. As for the clerics they've always felt more like the Celtic druids to me then a D&D style druid. For example Celtic druids were often described as being lawgivers and lore keepers in addition to leading their communities spiritually and being priests. Which to me sounds like the bard could fall under the "druid" heading for a Celtic style setting as well.
As to your first question, not sure. I was looking at "normal" high fantasy with a Celtic-y twist. I don't want to create a sword and sorcery type game that's too magic weak, ergo too realistic. Just a slight magic nerf to alter a standard Pathfinder setting, I think.
If I publish, I want to do this as Pathfinder Compatable. So I don't want to be too incompatable in the nerf.
My writing might have been confusing, sorry about that, but I did say, "yes there would be sorcerers and bards." I'd say that would be mandatory. And fey bloodline, dragon bloodline and perhaps a Winter Hag bloodline would exist.
Of druids, I agree with your point. Pathfinder druids are more shifters than divine casters, and something less akin to a Celtic druid, perhaps some type of priest could be developed for the setting - something like the 2e druid in flavor, if not name, more a nature priest and law giver.
I do want to introduce an Oracle class and that might serve as a Celtic Druid if class featured in that way. Thus still a nerf to a true cleric, but having access to divine casting and other features that could use a curse and mystery better suited to a Celtic priest. This Oracle might even serve as the divine tattooist of the culture as well.
Plus in an illiterate society, the Bard who memorizes the old laws, cultural sagas and songs would have greater significance in society, as they did in old Celtic cultures.
Though I say "celt", the direction is probably more "Pict", than true "Celt." I'm looking at a comparable Earth timeline, at 500 BC, so perhaps before Ogham was developed. Pictish runes would be present, however.
GP
Ok cool, "normal" high fantasy with a Celtic-y twist in my opinion is actually better then trying to make a "historically accurate but with magic" game out of D&D. It doesn't scale or settle very well in my experience unless you change a whole lot of rules and then you end up with a different game system and not D&D (or Pathfinder as the case may be).
And sorry about the misreading of which classes you're allowing and which ones you weren't. It's 2 or 3 hours past when I usually go to bed and my reading comprehension is starting to go downhill.
Of the sorcerer bloodlines the only ones I can't really see working are the Elemental and Undead ones. the rest I can think up ancestors for from Celtic myth.
I could definitely see the Oracle class serving in the mystic role of the Celtic druid and the bards taking the law keeper aspect. Heck some sorcerers might even be described in-game as druids depending on their bloodline and disposition. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to make a trait or feat called "Druid" that indicated the social connotations that such a thing brought with it in the culture.
~Nostri
Great plot idea you have with the Winter Hag planning to usher in a new Ice Age, G-P. I have considered running the same kind of campaign (Iron Age Celtic) before.
If it were me, I'd find a way to keep wizards and just give them a more Celtic angle. Ditch the spellbooks in favor of magical tattoes, as you mentioned (each spell is a complex knot-like pattern scribed on the wizard's skin, which must be meditated on each day to memorize), or the knot-like patterns and animalistic designs could be scribed on cured hides, etc. Same with scrolls -- replace them with something more Celtic, maybe Oghma runes on cards or stones that crumble to dust when activated?
Fey would be a big part of such a setting, with faerie mounds that were portals to Tir Nan Og or the Seelie Court, or entrances to the realm of the fomorian giants.
Maybe you could take the idea from the old 1st ed. Deities and Demigods about magical torcs, and the heads of enemies being turned into magical missile weapons to use against the enemy's kin?
Anyway, sounds like you have a good idea started! Good luck!
I actually like your idea of turning the Tattoo artist into a Pathfinder wizard. While I had some idea that a slight nerfing was appropriate, it might better serve me to stick closer to Pathfinder, and just alter the wizards as you describe. It falls into place better regarding the tattoos, that way enchanting others with tattoos could be more believeable. Perhaps rather than hold enchantments permanently, they serve as a vessel to contain spells cast onto them - the tattoo might enhance by extending the duration of the spell cast into them.
Hmmm, opens up new ideas! Thanks.
GP
Shameless self-promotion aside, Pict-styled hex-bladed warrior-warlocks were one of the motivating genre concepts behind my Iron Mage class, which I am likewise planning to publish commercially. Perhaps there's room for some crossover in these projects?
My other setting in partial publication already, Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, while my concept has been developed collaboratively with other publishers. I see no reason to stop, and welcome a collaborative effort with someone with the right ideas.
I know you're busy with your Top 32 position at this time - so when you finish (and good luck) bump this thread and we'll talk.
GP
Some of the more exotic and dark fey I'd want to introduce from Celtic Lore, since I don't think there are any in the Bestiary include:
Baobhan Sidh (Bovan Shee) - a vampire like beautiful female fey being, that entrances victims to dance with them, where they subsequently claw at their victims chests and lick up the blood. They are not undead, but are powerful spell casters. Has a cow's tail hidden under their skirts.
Illianon Sidh (Yanon Shee) - another vampire like beautiful female fey being that coaxes bards into singing for them, draining their songs from their memory, eventually killing them.
Both are human sized.
I'd have a Seelie Court rather than Tir Na Nog accessed via the knowes as well as faerie rings (mushroom circles).
I'd say the Firbolg Giants dwell in the northern highlands along with other giant-kind.
Of course there would be dragons, and also a giant poisonous snake-like "dragon" called a worm, found on isles on lakes.
I also want to introduce an invention of mine - the Winter Werewolf, who is a renegade Celtic clan serving the Winter Hag, the clan chief is a Winter Werewolf, a unique lycanthrope that confers normal werewolf lycanthropy to those bitten failing saving throw. Greater strength, cold wrought iron DR, Ferocity, natural spell, ranger like spell casting abilities or dark sorcery bloodline. The monster clan chief would be one of the Winter Hag's major lieutenants. Just an idea.
Other aspects to the setting include:
A major problem among the Celtic clans is that they don't get along, and its difficult to unite them against an overwhelming force such as the giant's army coming during the winter. There would political machinations, ambushes moreso than assassinations. Raidiing is a major activity of these people. Fights are generally skirmishes between small bands of warriors rather than large fielded armies.
Weapons include long sword, two-handed sword, battle axe, hammer, spear and long bow. I'm not sure how to limit the armor except maybe hide or studded leather and shield, as chain mail might not exist yet.
Sea worthy corracles - bowl-like ships of wood and whalebone covered in hides that are sewn and sealed in pitch with single sail and long oars. Not as fast as viking ship (which don't exist in this setting), but can cross oceans and carry a moderate load of supplies and men (20 men).
So the setting has lots of possibilities.
Thoughts?
GP
Bards (Skalds), Druids and Sorcerers would all work neatly into a Celtic setting.
Armor would need a look at (no plate!) as would shields (no Tower Shields).
Critters would be mostly nasty Humans and Dire Animals with almost everything else the stuff of legends, just the job for heros in the making.
Lucky for me, since I'm a pro cartographer, and I've been thinking of this setting for a while - I have a bunch of encounter scale maps already created for such a setting. Broch towers, Crannogs, hill forts, ogre caves, regional maps, though I will probably redo my large regional map in a more hand-drawn style, like my more recent maps, though many of the encounter scale are currently more realistic.
My regional map would be more in this style (Tolkien like I think):
The bottom floor of my Broch Tower map:
My Ogre Cave:
So lots of visuals already created for the setting! Though I'm thinking of going to a much more hand-drawn style to all the maps now a days. More like this style:
GP
Minor point: the Picts themselves were almost certainly Brythonic, not Celtic. There's so much Celtic influence in the Isles that of course it should be worked in (and probably dominant, depending on the approximat point in history), but perhaps you could toss in some influence from Wales and older English folklore? They had neat things too, which don't get quite as much love nowadays. :)
Some of the more exotic and dark fey I'd want to introduce from Celtic Lore, since I don't think there are any in the Bestiary include:
Baobhan Sidh (Bovan Shee) - a vampire like beautiful female fey being, that entrances victims to dance with them, where they subsequently claw at their victims chests and lick up the blood. They are not undead, but are powerful spell casters. Has a cow's tail hidden under their skirts.
Illianon Sidh (Yanon Shee) - another vampire like beautiful female fey being that coaxes bards into singing for them, draining their songs from their memory, eventually killing them.
Both are human sized.
I'd have a Seelie Court rather than Tir Na Nog accessed via the knowes as well as faerie rings (mushroom circles).
I'd say the Firbolg Giants dwell in the northern highlands along with other giant-kind.
Of course there would be dragons, and also a giant poisonous snake-like "dragon" called a worm, found on isles on lakes.
I also want to introduce an invention of mine - the Winter Werewolf, who is a renegade Celtic clan serving the Winter Hag, the clan chief is a Winter Werewolf, a unique lycanthrope that confers normal werewolf lycanthropy to those bitten failing saving throw. Greater strength, cold wrought iron DR, Ferocity, natural spell, ranger like spell casting abilities or dark sorcery bloodline. The monster clan chief would be one of the Winter Hag's major lieutenants. Just an idea.
Other aspects to the setting include:
A major problem among the Celtic clans is that they don't get along, and its difficult to unite them against an overwhelming force such as the giant's army coming during the winter. There would political machinations, ambushes moreso than assassinations. Raidiing is a major activity of these people. Fights are generally skirmishes between small bands of warriors rather than large fielded armies.
Weapons include long sword, two-handed sword, battle axe, hammer, spear and long bow. I'm not sure how to limit the armor except maybe hide or studded...
This sounds like a setting I'd love to play in! :)
Cattle raids seemed to be a common past-time, according to the mythology. Will there be an undersea realm like that of Mannanan MacLir?
For a while I've been looking at the idea of developing an Iron Age Celtic setting, and now am looking at such for Pathfinder RPG. The prime requesite that sets this setting apart from a standard Pathfinder RPG setting is there is no written language
(snip)
With the slight nerfing of magic, with the loss of the cleric and wizard, threats such as monsters, disease, death effects, etc, become much more lethal and scary. Now I'm rambling...
Thoughts?
GP
I'm sure the lack of literacy and limited access to a few spells (mainly the resurrection-oriented spells) will change the flavour of the game and create new challenges. But IMO, its not a bad thing. On the contrary, it will contribute to the "uniqueness" of your game.
I'd also encourage you to look into alternate rules for AC, as you may not want heavy armours to be as available as in your typical D&D/Pathfinder game. Obviously, there are no problems with denying heavy armours and not change the rules about it, as long as everyone is aware of its impact on combat encounters.
'findel
By the way, those are superb maps!
Minor point: the Picts themselves were almost certainly Brythonic, not Celtic. There's so much Celtic influence in the Isles that of course it should be worked in (and probably dominant, depending on the approximat point in history), but perhaps you could toss in some influence from Wales and older English folklore? They had neat things too, which don't get quite as much love nowadays. :)
Tejon, I completely agree with you here. However, most of what is known of Brythonic history happens after the era, my setting belongs. The Picts were truly illiterate and the only known record is a list of Pictish Kings, none of their specific histories, sagas are recorded. Of Celts there's much more information available. The Celts introduced the smelting and working of iron to a Bronze Age Brythonic people. It is during the Iron Age that most of the more impressive ancient ruins of Britain were constructed - the time period I imagine the setting to reside if it weren't a completely fictional place. I'm thinking 500 or 600 years before Roman Britain as an idealized time in history.
I'd incorporate what little I know. The ruling bloodlines were matrilineal, following the female bloodline, however their husbands were the ruling kings. Succession did not pass father to son, rather through the rules of Tannistry, the most capable close kin - brother, uncle, cousin, or son became the next king upon death of the old one. However this new king must marry into one of the royal Pictish lines with an available princess. There were also ruling Queens.
Still there were many female warriors, bards and other high society positions in a Picto-Celtic culture, so more equality among the sexes than in later times.
I'd like to lean heavily towards Pict in setting development adding the Celtic tropes that can fill in the holes due to lack of information. However, pursuing a "Pictish" line of thinking gives more creative license to being creative and inventing new ideas. I think I need a little of both Celtic and Pictish elements to make it a more sound setting.
I'll check into possible alternate AC rules.
I do have Katherine Briggs, Encyclopedia of Faeries, and will try to hand pick the primarily northern Britain and Highland fey and beasties rather than truly Celtic ones, to help maintain a more Pictish flavor.
Thanks for the good comments, folks!
GP
Sure the baseline perception of them as Knight in Shining Armor champion of the church type approach doesn't fly, but weren't there still 'heroes of justice' or whathave you, in some form or another?
Paladins are a product of feudal decadence. Only the ludicrously rich can afford to pay any attention to the suffering of the masses: the masses themselves are busy suffering.
In the sort of close-knit clan-tribes you'll see in this sort of setting, everyone pulls together as a team or people starve (starting with the ones who aren't pulling their weight), and if there's not enough to go around even then, you start to think about how the folks over the next hill have more sheep than you. Nobody's got the luxury of altruism. All heroes are "heroes of justice," because the people they were unjust to didn't survive to tell stories about it. The other guys' heroes are your ogres.
Edit: To give an idea of the kind of life we're talking about... this is from memory so probably off by a bit, but close enough: overall, the average lifespan was about 20 years. However, the average lifespan for people who lived past 15 was more like 60. The vast majority of deaths occurred before age 2, because an unweaned child is the most expendable member of the clan.
Before I dig deeper into this thread and say more (quite likely after I go to sleep though... man it's getting late lol) I have to ask...
Why no paladins? Sure the baseline perception of them as Knight in Shining Armor champion of the church type approach doesn't fly, but weren't there still 'heroes of justice' or whathave you, in some form or another?
During this time period survival was not a guarantee for anyone - farming was crude as mostly slash and burn, not letting fields lie fallow, thus farming usually continued until the nutrients were burned out of the soil, and the clan village was forced to relocated to find fertile ground once again, they might move back in a few years once they burn out the soil in their new location. The Picts as well as the Celts were largely a herding culture and less an agrarian culture - raising cattle, sheep, pigs and dogs. This means that 90% of daily clan activity was for the purposes of trying to feed oneself and the clan. Being properly fed is no guarantee in this Age of Heroes.
As Tejon mentioned death due to child birth, child diseases and injury with less than adequate medical treatment meant most people die under the age of 15. This is a very rough time in human existence.
Adults who were not dedicated to growing crops, raising herds, filling important clan positions were warriors and heroes. Being a hero would be everything philosophically that a Paladin might be, just there were no special positions for that in clan society. If you could wield a sword, bear a shield, helm and perhaps armor you were a clan fighting man and would serve to defend the clan/village, go on raids to steal cattle and resources or defeat giants/dragons/threats. This doesn't describe a Paladin, rather every kind of heroic person in a clan. The PCs are the heroes. They don't need to be paladins to do this job, it was expected of every able bodied person.
One could argue that the religious beliefs were common to all members of the clan and no unique religious based combatant existed apart from the rest of the clan. Everyone filled that role.
I don't think Paladins belong in a Pictish/Celtic setting. And I am in agreement with what Tejon already pointed out.
GP
*sigh* dangit why do I always have to get myself wrapped up in challenges like this?
Later today I'll post a re flavored Paladin you could use if you wanted to.
If you think you can convince me to allow a Paladin class for this setting, I am not opposed to this - you are welcome to try and change my mind. Good luck!
Thanks ahead of time if you manage it!
GP
Witch and Oracle seem fitting for a Celtic setting
If I may make a humble suggestion, I have run a game based on the Copper Crown and other books by Patricia Kennelly Morrison (the one Jim wes with? yes...) and found the 2nd edition Historical Reference (though not open content) would probably be of a great boon flavorwise. It's out of print but if worse comes to worse, I have all my books digitally backed up (in case of fire), let me know if you can't find it with a bump.
I'd be very interested in a product like this myself, and think the two fo you working together is a great idea FWIW.
EDIT: Also, I think the Inquisitor could fit into this as a law-speaker or blessed chieftan warrior mingled amidst the druids, if given a bit of keltoi twist. Also, would you include the cavalier?
Witch and Oracle seem fitting for a Celtic setting
I agree and mentioned both in my original post at the top of this thread! In fact as discussed the Pathfinder Druid is not so much a Celtic Druid as much as an extension of the 3e druid. So I think an Oracle may be better used in place the setting's needed druid.
I also like the Witch as far as APC goes, and think they'd fit well into a Celtic setting.
As to the last poster, I only feel Paladin, doesn't truly belong, but I may be convinced otherwise... :P
@WickedKGames - no I don't have that resource and it could help, I look see if I can find something on it. If you'd like to help I'd appreciate it.
GP
For weapons, you might want to check out the old 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide. In it is some discussion about bronze age / dark age technologies. For example, chain mail would be out, but breastplate and ring mail would be in. Crossbows would be completely cut out, as would bastard swords, rapiers, warhammers, pretty much all of the exotic weapons (except maybe whip), polearms, and most ranged folk should be using a shortbow or an atlatl (a kind of spear-throwing aid).
Sounds hella fun! I'll be anxiously awaiting updates.
Witch and Oracle seem fitting for a Celtic settingI agree and mentioned both in my original post at the top of this thread! In fact as discussed the Pathfinder Druid is not so much a Celtic Druid as much as an extension of the 3e druid. So I think an Oracle may be better used in place the setting's needed druid.
I also like the Witch as far as APC goes, and think they'd fit well into a Celtic setting.
As to the last poster, I only feel Paladin, doesn't truly belong, but I may be convinced otherwise... :P
GP
I would agree that the paladin, along with the wizard (Merlin was more of a druid for those thinking of him), the alchemist, the cleric, and the summoner should be left out. I know that some might argue about the summoner, but I think the witch and oracle fit in far better.
My company email - kakarasa at gmail dot com... drop me an email Gamer-Printer... thanks.
Hard copy here, but I'd still be okay with providing you with the pdf...
*EDIT: made it a link...
I would agree that the paladin, along with the wizard (Merlin was more of a druid for those thinking of him), the alchemist, the cleric, and the summoner should be left out. I know that some might argue about the summoner, but I think the witch and oracle fit in far better.
I would actually argue that some aspects of Merlin -- specifically Myrddin Wilt, or Merlin the Wild -- maybe him a rambling madman who wrote down prophecies of gloom and doom. This would make him an ecstatic type of Oracle.
How about an Oracle curse involving drug addictions? I know that there are many theories abounding about the Delphic oracle and some Celtic traditions being inspired by hallucinogenic fumes from the ground. Imagine an Oracle who's constantly on a bad acid trip -- waaaaay freaky, sometimes with moments of clarity, still capable of responding to threats but occasionally acting under a confusion effect. Still murky about the benefits, though =\
Thanks for all the ideas. Many of us are Anglophiles, Celtophiles, even a few Pictophiles and everybody has their own idea of what an ancient Britain setting might look like. I'm looking to create a game setting that works with Pathfinder rules and I'll have to pick and choose what fits and what doesn't - so I can't possibly include all ideas. But keep 'em coming the more ideas to work with, the better the setting will be.
I'll have to look at all the proposed Advanced Player classes and see what works. WickedK - good points on Inquisitor, I hadn't considered that.
More ideas to develop, but more research to do as well. I'll update when I settle on things better. Thanks.
GP
I would agree that the paladin, along with the wizard (Merlin was more of a druid for those thinking of him), the alchemist, the cleric, and the summoner should be left out. I know that some might argue about the summoner, but I think the witch and oracle fit in far better.I would actually argue that some aspects of Merlin -- specifically Myrddin Wilt, or Merlin the Wild -- maybe him a rambling madman who wrote down prophecies of gloom and doom. This would make him an ecstatic type of Oracle.
How about an Oracle curse involving drug addictions? I know that there are many theories abounding about the Delphic oracle and some Celtic traditions being inspired by hallucinogenic fumes from the ground. Imagine an Oracle who's constantly on a bad acid trip -- waaaaay freaky, sometimes with moments of clarity, still capable of responding to threats but occasionally acting under a confusion effect. Still murky about the benefits, though =\
I would agree actually oracle vs pathfinder druid. Versus a wizard though the keltic merlin is more of a druid than a wizard IMHO.
I like the sound of your Winter Hag campaign arc, and it sounds like it would keep the PCs busy from 1st-20th. But once the Winter Hag has been defeated, future generations of Celtic PCs will need new adventures ....
I know you mentioned in an earlier post that vikings do not exist in your world, but are there other cultures besides the Celts? It might create an interesting contrast to have some other fantasy cultures modeled on other European cultures interact with the Celts, and a Roman-like Imperium bent on conquest would fit the bill nicely, IMO.
BTW, will you be using the historical Celtic gods and goddesses, or creating similar deities?
With the possible addition of found or made-up Pictish deities, I'm sure to use Celtic Mythos - I'm certainly a fan of Dagda, Lugh, Mannanon Mac Lir and the rest of the crew!
The Winter Hag is in fact the Caillech Bheur (Kalyek Var) considered a highland deity and/or Fey being (depending on whose point of view) of pre-celtic times.
The setting could easily include many more plotlines - I just thought the Winter Hag campaign would have a solid storyline and keep the pace going.
GP
I would agree actually oracle vs pathfinder druid. Versus a wizard though the keltic merlin is more of a druid than a wizard IMHO.
If drawing from some of the medieval legends (Life of Merlin comes to mind), Merlin could be better described as a Druid/Sorcerer multiclass (with the Infernal bloodline, if you go literal). He is definitely born of a partly supernatural being, so some of his magic would be innate. Then Druid levels would integrate him well in the magic traditions of a celtic setting.
For non-book wizards, your tattoo idea seems neat. You can explore different venues of that kind. I found the spellcrystals in the Blackmoor 3.5 setting quite inspiring on how to craft an alternate form spellbook which has both advantages and limitations when compared to the book form.
NB If you add to your setting (even if in the periphery) a literate culture, you can include the standard Wizard class plus an alternative spellbook variant.
I imagine Roman city-based magic (i.e. casting spells from city shrines) could be a very good justification for why their garrisons are so darn effective: they can lay down a freakin' mythal! :O
Mass bless effects are actually meaningful, and there may be more than morale boosts by desecrating those dag Roman shrines.
While a Roman type invasion of the Pict country might be worthy for a second campaign down the road, my concern at this time is for Age of Heroes type game which is definitely pre-Roman scenario.
The time when the old tales were being created, when the sagas were born, that's the setting I want to build right now.
A Roman intrusion might be something worth thinking for the future, I think.
GP
...for some reason now I really want to see a Bronze Age campaign set in the Near East, roughly Egypt to Afghanistan. Hittites and Harappans! The taming of Enkidu!
...for some reason now I really want to see a Bronze Age campaign set in the Near East, roughly Egypt to Afghanistan. Hittites and Harappans! The taming of Enkidu!
Ahh, adventuring along the King's Road to Ionia! Negotiating with Canaanite princes for safe passage! Placing offerings to Ishtar on behalf of your kingdom! Glories of Babylon, Hattusa, and Thebes! Beware the mighty Israelites with their shield-carriers! Beware the charioteers of the Egyptians!
Crap nappit, now you've filled my head with ideas of making this into a campaign setting. I suppose I have only you to thank when I'm rolling in tens and tens of dollars in profits XD
Been reading up on Celtic/Brythonic Giants... it seems that in Faerie Lore many had been gods or conquered peoples of earlier times that degenerated into giants of folklore by later peoples.
Still among the several types of giants I found, many have representations or misrepresentations in previous editions of the game. I found Ogres, which correctly follow tradition and the game, Ettins which were sometimes two or three headed, Fir Bolgs (predecessor human race to the Tuatha de Danaan) which became magician giants, and the most demonic type were the Formians. The Formians are described to be more like cruel mountain or large hill giants.
I known in 2e at least Formians existed but were misshapen and unsurpriseable giant types, but that doesn't coincide with the Formians of highland lore.
Not sure whether I should stick with D&D/Pathfinder versions or lean towards the originals???
The same could be said for many types of fey I'm discovering as well. It seems the diminuitive faeries are fairly modern - most fey beings in the dark ages and older were believed to be both giants and human sized beings, not tiny sprites - which were introduced to literature in the late Middle Ages.
I don't need to necessarily buck D&D tradition, but it might be worthy to follow the original - to go for a more authentic Picto-Celtic setting.
GP
So the book was useful then? This pleases me. :) As far as fey goes, there has been a HUGE outcry I've noticed for want of more content (monsters, magic, etc). I think a major selling point I would personally look for in this would be just that.
The fir Bolgs seemed like a modified Ogre Mage would fit them and the foromians as decribed above seem like a modified giant with the fiendish template may work.
Sometimes you have to buck tradition to make it seem like something other than just another campaign, the only cautionary note I'd add is that as long as it follows the new rules for balance it's all good. I personally want my 3PP purchase to come ready to use without having to be rebalanced to fit in with RAW first. This is just my 2 CP, but it seems you are on the right track.... ;)
EDIT: Added the "O"... oopsy! LOL
Fomorians. Formians are ant people.
I've done that a couple dozen times myself. ;)
Just a minor nitpick: FORMIANS are the ant-like outsiders from Nirvana. The celtic giants were FOMORIANS. Easy to mix the names up as they are so similar.
EDIT: D'oh! Ninja'd by Tejon! :)
Anyone on this thread read the Copper Crown AKA Kelts in Space? The Fomorians are like space romans. It's definately an interesting interpretation if nothing else.
EDIT: Links!
Tejon - Yeah... one of the typos I must have not caught thinking subconsciously that formian is a legitimate word...LOL Still, not as bad as switching "your" and "you're"... :D
Who the formorians were.
Intro to the Keltiad
The ant-people mentioned above (Formians)
Minor point: the Picts themselves were almost certainly Brythonic, not Celtic. There's so much Celtic influence in the Isles that of course it should be worked in (and probably dominant, depending on the approximat point in history), but perhaps you could toss in some influence from Wales and older English folklore? They had neat things too, which don't get quite as much love nowadays. :)
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Brythonic is Celtic (P-Celtic), just not Gaelic (Q-Celtic). They're just different limbs on the same linguistic tree.
Formorians - d'oh! You're right!
GP
Fomorians show up in 4E as the giant overlords of the Feydark -- the plane of faerie's version of the Underdark. They constantly plot to take over the world (no, seriously) and fight with the eladrin on occasion. Plus, as part of flavor they made gnomes be former slaves to the Fomorians.
Just some insight in case you wanted to buck WOTC in the face :D
Formorians - d'oh! You're right!
GP
As an aside the Picts most likely intermarried with the Celtic peoples, but also likely are descendants of the Neolithic peoples that preceeded the Celts - the builders of the various henge structures, thus may be considered Brythonic or even a forgotten name of peoples from earlier times. The Celts didn't just wipe out the previous people from existence, perhaps their culture, but not the predecessors themselves.
While a FeyDark or Underdark of the Fey Plane sounds interesting, I'm seeing more of distinct area of the Fey Plane (surface) inhabited by the Unseelie Court, and their Fomorian masters. I see the Caillech Bheur or Winter Hag, as the possible "Queen-goddess" of that Unseelie Court, since she is a deity figure from pre-Celtic times.
I'm sure I'll be recreated the Fey Plane based on research and my own directions.
Don't mind bucking WotC at any time!
GP
So in looking at the class line up so far, this is what I see:
The trinity of "priests" or ministers of each clan by Celtic titles are druids, bards and vates.
As previously discussed the best candidate for a Pictish Druid would be the Oracle advanced class - I haven't yet broken down it features yet, that will be the next step.
The Pictish Bard would gain access to additional knowledge feats - local, history, clan law, with a prerequisite of selecting those before other knowledge skills. Bards also gain a protection of prohibition to harming or slaying by other Pictish clans, though this does not apply to any other combatant; fey, monster, or otherwise.
Vates, by history, were seers and "scientists", in my eyes the arcane spellcasters of a clan, best represented by varying bloodlines of sorcerers, more than likely the bloodlines separated by clan, since clan members are the same bloodline.
Of the Tattoo Wizards, I've decided in honor to Merlin, I will call them Myrddin. Living apart from the clans, these individuals considered kinless, live in the wilds, are trained by older myrddin in the wilderness in the arts of tattoo, learning the signs (runes, knotwork elements, beast symbols, etc.) and how to manipulate the arcane powers that emanate from the natural places. While a myrddin might serve as an advisor to a king or clanhead, they remain separate from the remaining high ministry of Druid, Bard, Sorcerer.
If Tejon is up to it, an Iron Mage might be the last spellcaster on this list.
I still need more time to think on the martial classes of the setting.
I need a couple days to finish up on a map commission for a publisher, so though I will check and comment, I'll be too busy to research more, until that's done with - got a Jan 31 deadline to meet.
GP
Celtic vs. Gaelic: This is why I should sleep more. :P I'm so damn used to everyone using "Celtic" to mean Irish...
If Tejon is up to it, an Iron Mage might be the last spellcaster on this list.
The class is going through a few more polish runs, but if you're going with tattoo wizardry, adapting the mechanics to this setting should be as easy as search/replacing the word "spellbook." All flavor from there. :)
I still need more time to think on the martial classes of the setting.
Yeah, I was thinking about that last night. I don't think fighters are appropriate! There's no military science. There's practice, sparring, but no drilling. People share a few techniques within the clan, and the smart survivors might remember what their enemies did, but there is no cult of swordsmanship. Barbarians are the guys who can hit harder; rogues are the really cunning ones; rangers are the truly wild men. They're all appropriate... but with none of those talents, you're just a warrior. As a minor bonus, fighters and paladins are the only heavy armor classes, so it won't be missed!