Much like 97% of people on these boards, I have a desire to create my own tabletop RPG and have ideas bouncing around in my head. I won't go into boring details, though. I just want to know what you would choose for base classes in your game if you were designing everything from scratch? Mine is very DND/high fantasy but all ideas are welcome.
Here's the default list of base classes. I noticed something when thinking about what classes I wanted for my base classes. I don't really like the default concepts of DND as much as I thought I did.
* Barbarian - Like
* Bard - Dislike (rather have jack of all trades class that's not tied to a profession)
* Cleric - Not sure (I'm not even sure if I like the concept anymore)
* Druid - Yes (probably be a Witch)
* Fighter - Yes
* Monk - Yes
* Paladin - Probably not (see Cleric)
* Ranger - Probably not (rather have finesse version of a Fighter not tied to the wilderness but can be through options if they wanted to)
* Rogue - Yes
* Sorcerer - No (subsumed into Wizard, no need for both)
* Wizard - Yes (split into many variants, not so general)
This last part is just the very general direction that I'm leaning towards. So, what about you?
I would not design a class based system. I might include templates to show people how to represent what people think of as the iconics. In that vein, I would probably include a Magic User, a Thief and a Warrior.
I would not design a class based system. I might include templates to show people how to represent what people think of as the iconics. In that vein, I would probably include a Magic User, a Thief and a Warrior.
Perfectly valid and I considered it (and personally prefer it) but I'm designing this to my group's preferences.
Much like 97% of people on these boards, I have a desire to create my own tabletop RPG [...]
Here's the default list of base classes. [...]
This last part is just the very general direction that I'm leaning towards. So, what about you?
Are you designing it specifically to be d20/PFSRD-compatible? If not, I would avoid levels and classes. If you ARE doing d20/PFSRD, then what you're doing is really making a campaign setting, not really a new RPG.
The class/level paradigm is a hard one to shake if you grew up (or are growing up) playing nothing but D&D. I think it works for D&D because it's had so long to work on it, but there's not many other genres that I would use a class/level mechanic with. Do it right and you have a decent d20 system. Do it wrong, and you end up with Rifts.
I recommend you find a game store that runs games near you, and see what else is being played. Or you could find a gaming convention in your area and try game systems you've never played before.
Much like 97% of people on these boards, I have a desire to create my own tabletop RPG and have ideas bouncing around in my head. I won't go into boring details, though. I just want to know what you would choose for base classes in your game if you were designing everything from scratch? Mine is very DND/high fantasy but all ideas are welcome.
Here's the default list of base classes. I noticed something when thinking about what classes I wanted for my base classes. I don't really like the default concepts of DND as much as I thought I did.
* Barbarian - Like
* Bard - Dislike (rather have jack of all trades class that's not tied to a profession)
* Cleric - Not sure (I'm not even sure if I like the concept anymore)
* Druid - Yes (probably be a Witch)
* Fighter - Yes
* Monk - Yes
* Paladin - Probably not (see Cleric)
* Ranger - Probably not (rather have finesse version of a Fighter not tied to the wilderness but can be through options if they wanted to)
* Rogue - Yes
* Sorcerer - No (subsumed into Wizard, no need for both)
* Wizard - Yes (split into many variants, not so general)This last part is just the very general direction that I'm leaning towards. So, what about you?
I agree with bard. I have no use for it. I dislike the monk. I've never liked it in swords and sorcery. I don't want guys doing karate in my dungeon. I think it is silly. I agree with you about wizard/sorcerer. I guess sorcerer was part of the 3E effort to make Charisma relevant. Some of that effort was really good, but sorcerer I don't like or need.
Let arcane be the wizard's domain. I don't like the idea of someone stealing the wizard's thunder. Someone with a sparkling personality.I agree with you about wizard variants, though, like specialists, wild mages, perhaps others. Barbarian I can work with, but it doesn't seem coherent to me any more. I realize that rage is the common denominator, but I don't find that to be a strong unifying theme. It made more sense when barbarians were wild and uncivilized, because...that's what barbarians are. Now a barbarian can be perfectly civilized, but just really mad.
I would not design a class based system. I might include templates to show people how to represent what people think of as the iconics. In that vein, I would probably include a Magic User, a Thief and a Warrior.Perfectly valid and I considered it (and personally prefer it) but I'm designing this to my group's preferences.
Forgot to get to my point.
Assuming you ARE making a new d20 compatible system, I'd change cleric so it casts differently from the arcane classes. Get rid of the cleric class completely. Have a divine class that doesn't cast spells in the same "prepare from a list, standard action to complete in combat." And not in the same way as a sorcerer, like "Cast N of X per spell level per day."
I don't have any suggestions (none that wouldn't take several pages of elaboration, anyway), but it's something to think about.
If someone held a gun to my head and said I had to use classes, I would want to make them as generic as possible and let players customize them at run time. Something like True20.
Are you designing it specifically to be d20/PFSRD-compatible? If not, I would avoid levels and classes. If you ARE doing d20/PFSRD, then what you're doing is really making a campaign setting, not really a new RPG.
My biggest goal of this is breaking away from d20. Not really a fan of d6 either. I thought I wanted rules-light until I looked at some systems that were. I think I just want calculation-light if such a thing exists.
The class/level paradigm is a hard one to shake if you grew up (or are growing up) playing nothing but D&D. I think it works for D&D because it's had so long to work on it, but there's not many other genres that I would use a class/level mechanic with. Do it right and you have a decent d20 system. Do it wrong, and you end up with Rifts.
Personally, I would rather do a classless system but I couldn't sell it on my group so I'm stuck defining classes. It'll be a high fantasy genre specific though. Good chance I'll even use Golarion(sp?) as my campaign setting.
I recommend you find a game store that runs games near you, and see what else is being played. Or you could find a gaming convention in your area and try game systems you've never played before.
I do plan to tap every source I can find including you guys. I've come up with some good ideas already just by looking through unrelated threads. There's a lot of clever minds here. :)
Have you looked at Castles & Crusades?
If someone held a gun to my head and said I had to use classes, I would want to make them as generic as possible and let players customize them at run time. Something like True20.
Who knows, I might end up making a classless system and just assemble progressions for all of the archtypes for my players. Then if they want to stray a little or just totally come up with something new, it'll be able to handle it.
Have you looked at Castles & Crusades?
Haven't gotten to that one yet. I've seen it mentioned a lot around here though. I'll have to check it out. Savage Worlds is another that I'm interested in looking at although I believe that it's classless although like I mentioned above...
I bring it up because it has classes but is rather rules light. I think it does a good job of capturing 1e feel while codifying areas that did not have any rules.
I think True20 would be a good 'baby step' for a bunch of D&Ders. It still has classes and a lot of Skills and Feats they are already familiar with while allowing more freedom. I think it still suffers from the same multi-classing issues 3.5 does. However, since there is a lot more freedom within a single class, it is easier to overlook.
I dislike the monk. I've never liked it in swords and sorcery. I don't want guys doing karate in my dungeon.
My group likes the monk/ninja/eastern classes mixed in so I plan to introduce a touch of anime mostly to make these classes relevant. Jumping to the top of a two story building won't be nearly as difficult for a skillful, non-encumber warrior of any type. I need to balance the abilities of skills out with magic and brute force.
I guess sorcerer was part of the 3E effort to make Charisma relevant. Some of that effort was really good, but sorcerer I don't like or need.
Charisma is already gone. Rolling is for fighting and skills, not for role playing. Your character is as charismatic as you play him. I've replaced it with Luck, mostly for simmetry, unless I think of something better.
I think True20 would be a good 'baby step' for a bunch of D&Ders. It still has classes and a lot of Skills and Feats they are already familiar with while allowing more freedom. I think it still suffers from the same multi-classing issues 3.5 does. However, since there is a lot more freedom within a single class, it is easier to overlook.
Not doing d20. Most of my motivation for doing this is because I can't stand DMing d20. I want calculation-light so that battles move fast. If I have to wait for the Barbarian to calculate his attack and damage based on charging, barding music, raging, power attack, a bull's strength potion combined with which of his weapons he's using one more time...grrrrr. I can't change the players but I can change the game. :)
|
If I have to wait for the Barbarian to calculate his attack and damage based on charging, barding music, raging, power attack, a bull's strength potion combined with which of his weapons he's using one more time...grrrrr.
Huh. And here I thought I was the only one who loathed such calculations.... ^_^
(And don't get started on magic-users not knowing what spells they'll be casting that day...!)
I think I'd actually start with the Races as the "Base Classes" and adjust their skill progression/trees from there.
|
I would have 3 classes like the Generic Classes(Expert, Spellcaster, and Warrior) from Unearthed Arcana and provide abilities to allow people to customize just about anything imaginable in the D&D realm. I would also seriously reduce the power-levels to maybe make the first 10 levels of current 3.5/PRPG breakdown into 20 levels.
|
|
I think True20 would be a good 'baby step' for a bunch of D&Ders. It still has classes and a lot of Skills and Feats they are already familiar with while allowing more freedom. I think it still suffers from the same multi-classing issues 3.5 does. However, since there is a lot more freedom within a single class, it is easier to overlook.Not doing d20. Most of my motivation for doing this is because I can't stand DMing d20. I want calculation-light so that battles move fast. If I have to wait for the Barbarian to calculate his attack and damage based on charging, barding music, raging, power attack, a bull's strength potion combined with which of his weapons he's using one more time...grrrrr. I can't change the players but I can change the game. :)
Might I suggest looking into Microlite20? It is awesomely simple while retaining a D&D oldschool feel. I love it and am using it to intro my kids to D&D. Very simple and easy to understand and track stuff. I find that the less rules, the more Roleplay.... in my games at least.
|
|
Here is a direct link to the free PDF download of the 'pretty' version of Microlite20. I place it in plastic sleeves and make it into a book....you can also download expanded classes, monsters, etc....
Huh. And here I thought I was the only one who loathed such calculations.... ^_^
:)
(And don't get started on magic-users not knowing what spells they'll be casting that day...!)
Yeah, preparing spells for the day has already been nixed as well as running out of magic. Almost all resource management will be easily done with poker chips or those colored crystal things.
Thanks for all of the suggestions everyone. Keep them coming.
Here is a direct link to the free PDF download of the 'pretty' version of Microlite20. I place it in plastic sleeves and make it into a book....you can also download expanded classes, monsters, etc....
Wow, they're not kidding about being light! Too much so, I'm afraid. My group would be ticked at me if I tried to run something this simplified. :)
Mutants & Masterminds? I know it is d20, but I thought I would throw it out there. I think the power caps would help from all the mental gymnastics you are concerned about. I could see the cost of 'spells' to be a little intensive, but only if your players want something complicated.
Mutants & Masterminds? I know it is d20, but I thought I would throw it out there. I think the power caps would help from all the mental gymnastics you are concerned about. I could see the cost of 'spells' to be a little intensive, but only if your players want something complicated.
I was going to check that one out mostly for ideas. My group is perfectly happy with 3.5/Pathfinder and have been playing this system for years. I just run out of steam very quickly when I have to DM it. There are certain pitfalls that kind of bother me about the system that I was hoping 4E was going to clean up for me. It didn't quite meet my group's approval. I'm going to try to make what I was hoping 4E was going to be like (not a slap on 4E).
Besides, most of the fun is building it and seeing how well it works. ;)
Have you looked at Castles & Crusades?Haven't gotten to that one yet. I've seen it mentioned a lot around here though. I'll have to check it out. Savage Worlds is another that I'm interested in looking at although I believe that it's classless although like I mentioned above...
I'd look at Savage Worlds definitely! This is the only RPG system I use these days and it's a LOT of fun. But it is classless, yes.
Still, it's very easy to establish a character's class by the edges he takes (Savage World's equivalent to feats).
If you want to play a spellcaster, you take the Arcane Background edge which comes in two fantasy flavours, Miracles and Magic. They also have an Arcane Background for Psionics. The Holy Warrior edge lets you "turn undead".
Playing a fighter or ranger is as easy as taking a few combat edges and having a good score in the Fighting, Shooting, or Throwing skills. Paladins just need the Champion edge to be able to smite evil creatures.
Rogues have their own professional edge called Thief, and a few skills like Lockpicking and Stealth that would be handy.
The Fantasy Companion for Savage Worlds will add a lot to your game as well, so I recommend it too.
So players who want to play a class just have to focus on the above choices, while players who want to make their own character outside of these norms could do so just as well.
my homebrew rpg is based on the d20 system, but greatly simplified (call it "dnd 2.5"). its classes are fighter, rogue, and wizard. that covers all the bases.
A percental based skill only system with a point build. kind of like Gurps but better.
So just out of curiosity, does anyone want to take a stab at the original question? If not, no biggie.
|
Warrior, Mage, Priest, Rogue, Psion
Characters would receive a number of Power Points with which they could purchase class abilities. Abilities selected from a class other than their own would cost more (with some being much more for certain classes). And of course there would be a sixth class of abilities: General. If you followed this model, I don't think there would be any need for any other classes, base or prestige.
But even ignoring the fact that you could merge abilities from the various classes, it would make the base classes very customizable. Want to play a barbarian? It's just a Warrior with a focus on rage and less focus on armor and skill. You could easily create any of the classes from WotC or Pathfinder or many other games, or create your own new combination.
The number of Power Points you have initially and gain at each level would be set by the GM, although there would be suggestions for different power levels in the core rulebook.
So just out of curiosity, does anyone want to take a stab at the original question? If not, no biggie.
I'll take a stab.
If I was designing a class based RPG, well, I'd have a warrior, a mage, a priest, and a rogue. Sorry, they're archetypes for a reason. They exist in myth and legend everywhere.
However, I'd also have classes that mixed them up, basically, built in MC options to use D&D terms.
That said, as much as I like them, if I were designing a RPG, I'd dump classes entirely. I'd keep levels but try to make a skill and point based system where every level you'd gain X amount of points and buy the abilities you wanted.
OP, you might want to check out the preview for Fantasy Craft, there's some clever stuff going on in there. Character creation has more crunch and page turning going on, but the game play is a lot smoother. May not be to your liking, but from the sounds of them, I think your players would definitely dig it.
ED: Regarding the original question, I think the Fantasy Craft classes are decent fantasy class archetypes with a S&S flavour and the races are a neat mix of templates and feat options you may want to consider.
|
|
Mutants & Masterminds? I know it is d20, but I thought I would throw it out there. I think the power caps would help from all the mental gymnastics you are concerned about. I could see the cost of 'spells' to be a little intensive, but only if your players want something complicated.
True20 essentially combines M&M with the three 'generic classes' of Unearthed Arcana, with a Spellcaster (Adept), Warrior and Expert archetypes, and the various class abilities (Rage, Sneak Attack, etc. being purchased as feats).
So that's basically three 'base classes,' with Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, etc. being modular add-ons to customize the base classes.
I love the idea, but having played both D&D and GURPS, feels like a 'half-way between' version, at times. On the one hand, it's cool to be able to play a 'warrior' type who specializes in unarmed combat, and also Rages, but I can already do that in GURPS.
The strength of a class-based system is it's ease of character creation, compared to GURPS. Instead of starting from the ground up, I just take a level of Paladin and get a bucket of Paladin-abilities, which is a lot quicker than starting with a base warrior and strapping on 'holy powers' to suit the concept.
The strength of a classless (or class-lite) system is being able to do *exactly* what you want. If you want your 'paladin' to be a holy warrior who goes into a divinely-inspired Righteous Fury when faced with the enemies of his faith, you don't have to try and kludge together levels of Paladin, Barbarian (for Rage) and Ranger (for Favored Enemy) to get what you are looking for.
Some sample D&D characters I made up using Mutants & Masterminds, about, uh, four years ago...
Naull, Iconic (Human) Wizard, version 2, with Familiar, and sample items crafted with Artificer Feat
Vadania, Iconic Druid and Summoned Nature's Allies
Further in the thread (after Naull), are examples of how to create various D&D races using M&M. A point-based system with it's own built-in balancing factors is pretty much *perfect* for this sort of thing, although M&M has a very different 'feel' and playstyle than D&D (spellcasters pretty much never running out of spells, for instance, unless you specifically give them such limits, or make castings have a chance of Fatiguing them or something).
|
|
This last part is just the very general direction that I'm leaning towards. So, what about you?
Generic Classes as per Unearthed Arcana.
I would recomend BESM 3 if you can get a copy of it. It is as rules lite or rules intensive as you like, can either be used as class based, or classless, and is just darn fun to play.
I was looking for that on Amazon. The only copies left are being sold by the price gougers. :(
|
Elsewhere, I've suggested basic adventuring party roles as:
Fighter
Intrusion specialist (sneaky, trapfinding or wilderness guy)
Face (more often a role than a class)
Setting-specific FX user.
In many modern or space opera/space fantasy settings, technology forms one kind of FX and psionics or some setting-specific concept makes another, giving five roles. Likewise fantasy settings often (not always) distinguish between magic and effective religion.
Seems that everyone here has a strong preference towards classless or the generic classes. There's a decent chance that I'll build my system classless but then pre-assemble all of the iconics for my players. If they want to try something different, I'll show them how to build a character without using a base class.
Any other ideas or anything else that you'd make sure or want to put into a RPG if you were making one?
In many modern or space opera/space fantasy settings, technology forms one kind of FX and psionics or some setting-specific concept makes another, giving five roles. Likewise fantasy settings often (not always) distinguish between magic and effective religion.
I keep teetering on the inclusion of divine magic. It is so ingrained in DND lore that it's hard to get rid of. The thing that I don't care for is the couple of side effects that come with it. For one, the healer almost has to be (or feels like they have to be) a religious, god worshipping character. And two, it seems like anyone playing a religious, god worshipping character feels like they have to play a Cleric. I know that it's not supposed to be that way but that seems to be what happens in my group. One of my goals is to open up the characters personalities, beliefs and interests and not have class influence that so much. That's why I chucked Charisma very early on. I hate that stat!
you could have the game set up as classless, with points awarded for completion of goals and allow player's to customize as they see fit. then create a template or path that players can follow to create a rogue, fighter, wizard, or shaman ( i also dislike the way clerics work).
Good possibility. We'll se when I get that far.
to keep the game flowing combine lots of like skills together and and have a section of the character sheet where players can write down attack bonuses for diferent ways they attack,
I'm simplifying the mechanics so that this won't be necessary. There's no more attack roll to see if you hit. You just roll damage to see if you got over their armor*. That's the hope at least. I'm still crunching numbers to see if it'll work.
* Sorry, I meant Armor Class
Backwards compatibility.
Any other ideas or anything else that you'd make sure or want to put into a RPG if you were making one?
I'm going to take this as sarcasm. :)
|
|
I'm going to take this as sarcasm. :)Backwards compatibility.
Any other ideas or anything else that you'd make sure or want to put into a RPG if you were making one?
Nope. I'm serious. Take a look at this system to see how far one can deviate from the SRD and still use the vast majority current supps out there.
Nope. I'm serious. Take a look at this system to see how far one can deviate from the SRD and still use the vast majority current supps out there.
I've already looked at it and it is quite interesting but I'm going a different route. If I were basing my system off d20, this would be a perfect starting point. I have a completely different system in mind that isn't going to be backwards compatable with anything out there unless I'm reinventing the wheel. I need to keep the numbers smaller.
and don't forget to throw alignment out the window. with only damage rolls would damage be higher or armor classes be lower?
Yes, alignment is indeed gone. You are your character and that's that. One of my pet peeves is detections spells that indicate intentions like detect evil. I'd rather leave that up to role-playing.
Both the damage and Armor Class numbers are coming down, AC more so than damage.
Have you looked at Castles & Crusades?Haven't gotten to that one yet. I've seen it mentioned a lot around here though. I'll have to check it out. Savage Worlds is another that I'm interested in looking at although I believe that it's classless although like I mentioned above...I'd look at Savage Worlds definitely! This is the only RPG system I use these days and it's a LOT of fun. But it is classless, yes.
Still, it's very easy to establish a character's class by the edges he takes (Savage World's equivalent to feats).
If you want to play a spellcaster, you take the Arcane Background edge which comes in two fantasy flavours, Miracles and Magic. They also have an Arcane Background for Psionics. The Holy Warrior edge lets you "turn undead".
Playing a fighter or ranger is as easy as taking a few combat edges and having a good score in the Fighting, Shooting, or Throwing skills. Paladins just need the Champion edge to be able to smite evil creatures.
Rogues have their own professional edge called Thief, and a few skills like Lockpicking and Stealth that would be handy.
The Fantasy Companion for Savage Worlds will add a lot to your game as well, so I recommend it too.
So players who want to play a class just have to focus on the above choices, while players who want to make their own character outside of these norms could do so just as well.
Second, it's a very nice system, also check out Earthdawn 3e!!
Second, it's [Savage Worlds] a very nice system, also check out Earthdawn 3e!!
Definitely checking out Savage Worlds. After finding out what I could about it, which isn't a whole lot since the rules aren't on-line, it does seem relatively close to what I'm working on. I ordered the Explorer's Edition and expect to find a lot of good ideas in it (unless it's even closer or better than I realize in which I'll just use it).
Thanks for all of the suggestions everyone. Feel free to add more if you want.
Ok this may be a long post, and if so I apologize now.
I have been contemplating a more generic class system for some time now and have been laying elements in place for a while. As such I will share what I have so far and you can ignore or steal as much as you want. Firstly I'm going for a low magic fantasy setting akin to sword and sorcery with a gritty feel. It has room for pulp action, noir crime drama, and even swashbuckling craziness, but that's all setting stuff that aren't the point here.
As for classes and system,
EX: William the Just is a 10th level warrior who hunts renegade arcanists and evils. He does all the necassary story stuff to be accepted into the Templars of the Divine, a witch hunter faction. This unlocks a new talent tree (The templar) and he gains a few special abilities.
It isn't perfect or heavily worked yet as I'm not sure about which class features should be talents and which should be feats, and how to implement "Prestige Classes" or "Specializations" as Dragon Age calls them. The only heavily thought out aspects I have so far is
That's the basics of what I am doing, use what you will from it. :)