Use of the phrase "your turn" as opposed to "the round" or "until the beginning of your next turn" would seem to clearly proscribe against Lunge AoO's. I mean, it's clearly using a very different wording for the Reach increase than it uses for the AC penalty. If they were meant to be the same, it should have been written 'you increase your Reach and worsen your AC until your next turn'. But it doesn't say that.
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No, the benefit lasts from when you elect to use it (before you make any attacks for that round) until the end of your turn. It could only apply if your opponent somehow provoked an attack of opportunity while it was still your turn.
You can't activate the feat as an attack of opportunity because, apart from anything else, you've already made your attacks for that round, on your turn.
On a slightly unrelatedn tangent, do you think Lunge should be allowed with Whirlwind Attack? RAW seem to agree, but the idea of the character doing a forward Lunge doesn't mesh well with the one of a character doing a Whirlwind Attack.
Thoughts?
Who needs Whirlwind Attack?
Full Attack or Cleave works just as well, with the extra Reach giving you more targets.
Spring Attack (Attack Action) vs. Lunge + Full Attack - which is 'more powerful'?
Readied Actions I would consider on "your turn": it is still a Standard Action, using up your actions for your turn, not making use of an AoO trigger outside of the action/turn economy... I suppose I would require the PC/NPC to decide whether or not they are using Lunge when they declare the Readied Action - the AC penalty should apply in the intervening Init period if they want to use Lunge at all.
On a slightly unrelatedn tangent, do you think Lunge should be allowed with Whirlwind Attack? RAW seem to agree, but the idea of the character doing a forward Lunge doesn't mesh well with the one of a character doing a Whirlwind Attack.
Conceptually, the idea of the character recklessly putting themself off-balance, opening themself to attacks (AC penalty), in order to attack further targets in a larger area around them... makes complete sense to me.
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I'd say it most definitely is usable in an attack of opportunity but the -2 penalty goes away on your turn.
Therefore
Round 1-
I'm granted an AOO at the start of the round before my turn.
I use the lunge feat, and take the -2. My turn comes next.
-2 is gone
Round 1 Alternative
I take the AoO with lunge, and gain the -2 to AC.
My turn is last in the round, I have a -2 AC till the end of that round basically.
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I'd say it most definitely is usable in an attack of opportunity but the -2 penalty goes away on your turn.
Therefore
Round 1-
I'm granted an AOO at the start of the round before my turn.I use the lunge feat, and take the -2. My turn comes next.
-2 is gone
Round 1 Alternative
I take the AoO with lunge, and gain the -2 to AC.
My turn is last in the round, I have a -2 AC till the end of that round basically.
Clever.
But realize that you would only get an AoO against spaces that you threaten without lunge. Since you don't threaten the 'reached' spaces before using lunge, your regular reach would be used to determine what spaces you threaten, and thus what spaces a creature must be in to trigger an AoO.
Thus using lunge like this (and I'm not convinced its doable) simply gives you an AC penalty till your next turn.
In theory, if you had Combat Reflexes or some other method of getting extra AoO's in a round, you could use lunge on the first AoO against a foe within normal reach, thereby expanding your reach for subsequent AoOs prior to the end of your turn.
Actually, you'd have to have Combat Reflexes or Uncanny dodge to even do this, since it could only work before you take any actions in the combat. And if you don't have either of those abilities, you can't take AoOs before your first initiative turn anyways. So really, the only way you could get any benefit from this is 1) you have Combat Reflexes or Uncanny Dodge, 2) before you can act in the initiative a foe provokes an AoO within your normal reach, then 3) still prior to your first initiative turn, after using lunge on the previous AoO to gain no benefit, another foe then provokes an AoO in your expanded reach.
Now I've done a lot of gaming, but I have never seen a character get two AoOs prior to his first initiative.
Right. So you can only activate it when it's your turn before you make any attacks. That makes sense.
However after you've activated it, you threaten both adjacent squares and squares at 1 hex of Reach, meaning you can attack at both 5' and 10'. I figured you would treat your weapon as a Reach weapon meaning you can't attack adjacent hexes until your next turn. However, that's not what it does, according to this thread. Treating it as a Reach weapon during that time makes more sense to me though since I imagine the -2 AC comes from extending yourself. It would go away when you stop extending yourself.
Right?
You know: If a chain with flail stats granted the ability to use the Lunge Feat without having the Feat but became an Exotic Weapon, that would be a good way to bring back the Spiked Chain. That would seem fair because the Lunge Feat lets you use ALL weapons at Reach. Having it on an Exotic Weapon would only let you use it on ONE weapon which would counterbalance being able to get it before the +6 BAB requirement.
Something reasonable like this should really be done. Because, c'mon. Nobody would really want to fight with a 4' chain unless they were using it for grappling. Unless it's a bicycle chain, any actual martial chain weapon should be a reach weapon.
You don't threaten 10 feet out with lunge if it is not your turn. You only have reach on your turn. However, you can still flank with it:
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.
.
LUNGER
5' SPACE
ENEMY
ALLY
If you delay until your ally's turn, and attack when he attacks, you will both get the flanking bonus since you are acting on the same init.
So while you can get the flanking bonus, you can't threaten around you when it isn't your turn with lunge.
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Lunge (Combat)
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
Ok, it seems clear to me that 'before any attacks are made' implies attacks on your turn, otherwise we get into very slippery slopes. Before 'ANY' attacks are made is too late, as some have already been made, somewhere, sometime.
My reading has always been that lunge helps you with reach during your turn, with whatever attacks you make during your turn, 'until the end of your turn', but that the penalty works until the end of your turn.
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Lunge means you still have to close with me...I don't have to close with you...and I can break it off and run when I feel the need. I can typically back up my 5' step, and take you to where I want to fight you...and if I have a reach weapon, and you don't, you need to make a 10' move...AoO.
Lunge can rock if you play it right.
I have an awakened croc NPC that lunges out of the murky water...and has unbelievable stealth.
I have an alternative interpretation of this rule that allows for lunging attacks of opportunity until the end of the lunger's turn:
The language does not simply say that "you must decide to use this ability before you make any attacks." It's plain meaning has a much broader application, denoting that your intention to use the feat must be decided (and therefore announced) "before ANY attacks are made" (emphasis added). This means that the intention must be announced before the first attack occurs during the round (whether or not the lunger is the first attacker). The rationale for this condition is quite apparently to simulate the distraction and vulnerable bodily positioning inherent in a character's preparation for, execution of, and recovery from a lunging attack (or series of lunges). The AC penalty would consequently apply from the time the intent to lunge is announced (before any attacks are made during the round) until the lunger's next turn. This application of the rule seems to realistically simulate consequences of the mental and physical commitment that lunging entails in reality.
The same mental and physical commitment involved in executing one lunge could conceivably be sustained for a prolonged period of time and applied to multiple lunges. Assuming that a person has selected combat reflexes and is not flat footed at the beginning of the round, it seems reasonable (in light of the very lenghty and sustained AC penalty that is imposed) that the lunger should be able to apply the benefit to every attack that he makes as well.
The relevant phrase in the feat description reads as follows: "You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn..." Furthermore, attacks of opportunity are defined as "a single melee attack." None of this phraseology can be interpreted either implicitly or explicitly to prohibit multiple lunging attacks. Assuming that a person announces his intent to lunge before "ANY attacks are made", and assuming npc's...
Just...No.
Who in their right mind would take Combat Reflexes as a feat if it were impossible to execute lunging attacks of opportunity?
Combat Reflexes is an excellent feat. Being able to make an AoO while flat-footed is almost as good as being able to make multiple AoOs per round. Users with reach often find more benefit to the feat, but it's still well worth considering for a melee combatant.
That said, it's clearly not impossible to make an attack of opportunity while using lunge.
Lunge doesn't grant increased reach after your turn is over, but that's not really related.
lunge works with whirlwind attack why do you think it does not?
Ok, that's roughly the way I read it too, but then the question becomes: What use is Lunge? Is it meant just as a way to get around an opponent's reach and thus avoid opportunity attacks yourself (like a weaker version of Spring Step)? Or is the primary purpose to combine it with Whirlwind Strike, and hope your foes line up for you? Seems pretty narrow...
Lunge is quite useful. Full-attack from reach, then step back 5 ft. If he wants to attack you, your opponent (unless he too has reach capabilities) will have to move 10 ft and only gets a standard action attack.
There are plenty of ways to hypothetically get AoOs on your own turn, generally from counter-attack type abilities and moving (intentionally) through threatened spaces to draw AoOs. Come and Get Me rage power and Snake Fang feat, for example. Still not a very good use of Lunge, though.
But you can't use it on attack of opportunity for a reason.
If the target is in your reach, you have the right to do the attack of opportunity, and then Lunge is useless.
If the target is out of reach, the attack of opportunity never triggers, and so, you won't be able to use lunge (as lunge is to be active before you attack).
But you can't use it on attack of opportunity for a reason.
If the target is in your reach, you have the right to do the attack of opportunity, and then Lunge is useless.
If the target is out of reach, the attack of opportunity never triggers, and so, you won't be able to use lunge (as lunge is to be active before you attack).
I can see using it combination with Combat Patrol so as to increase your reach and save yourself movement while AOOs are triggered in your threatened area.
I can see using it combination with Combat Patrol so as to increase your reach and save yourself movement while AOOs are triggered in your threatened area.But you can't use it on attack of opportunity for a reason.
If the target is in your reach, you have the right to do the attack of opportunity, and then Lunge is useless.
If the target is out of reach, the attack of opportunity never triggers, and so, you won't be able to use lunge (as lunge is to be active before you attack).
But again :
Case 1 : The target is in your threatened area. He makes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Being in your threatened area, you can make that attack. Lunge is useless, as you already could attack.
Case 2 : The target isn't in your threatened area (but adjacent to it). He makes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Being outside you threatened area, you can't make that attack. As you can't trigger that attack, you can't decide to use Lunge.
In the case 2 : Allowing to use Lunge would cause a paradox, because you would have to use Lunge while you can't act.
Combat patrol is HUGE. I'll take it for my next Fighter.
I can see using it combination with Combat Patrol so as to increase your reach and save yourself movement while AOOs are triggered in your threatened area.But you can't use it on attack of opportunity for a reason.
If the target is in your reach, you have the right to do the attack of opportunity, and then Lunge is useless.
If the target is out of reach, the attack of opportunity never triggers, and so, you won't be able to use lunge (as lunge is to be active before you attack).
But again :
Case 1 : The target is in your threatened area. He makes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Being in your threatened area, you can make that attack. Lunge is useless, as you already could attack.
Case 2 : The target isn't in your threatened area (but adjacent to it). He makes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Being outside you threatened area, you can't make that attack. As you can't trigger that attack, you can't decide to use Lunge.
In the case 2 : Allowing to use Lunge would cause a paradox, because you would have to use Lunge while you can't act.
Combat patrol is HUGE. I'll take it for my next Fighter.
Being in your threatened area is different than being within reach for combat patrol. The wording implies you set up an area in which AOOs may be triggered. If an AOO is triggered, you can then move to that enemy and take your AOO. I was exaplaining using lunge before an AOO and saving your movement thanks to your reach.
Combat Patrol (Combat)
You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Being in your threatened area is different than being within reach for combat patrol.
As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus.
Being in your threatened area looks identical to being within reach of combat patrol to me.
I agree with bbangerter here : you increase your threatened area, and by so, you can take attack of opportunity WITHOUT moving in this area.
Moreso, you can move during those attacks, in order to be better placed for other attacks of opportunity (or for the next round).
That's actually not what I'm saying. You still need to be within weapon reach to make the attack - hence combat patrol calling out that you can move within your threatened area, so as to allow you to get to the appropriate reach for whatever weapon you are using.
My point was that the combat patrol area and the threatened are one and the same thing.
Oups, my mistake here... :)
Quandary had it right. The answer is no. It clearly states that it
only applies to attacked on yur turn
The implication of the feat is very clearly that it is used on one's turn and cannot be used to extend reach for the purposes of AoOs (unless they should somehow happen during one's turn).
Those of you claiming that this is somehow not worthwhile fail miserably at tactics. Reach weapons and full attacks, Whirlwind attack, Cleave chain, flying combatants, squishy casters with touch spells....
And whips. Sweet Aroden, whips.
I have a Gnome slayer (he wasn't gnome from the start, he was a half elf and reincarnated) that has lunge. I stand behind the tank and lunge through his square, flanking with the rogue behind the enemy, or I stand behind the rogue and get flanking with the tank. I don't get attacked a whole lot, either. Lunge has been amazing.
A necro of a necro of a necro?
Possible idea for a bestiary 5 monster template?
I have a Gnome slayer (he wasn't gnome from the start, he was a half elf and reincarnated) that has lunge. I stand behind the tank and lunge through his square, flanking with the rogue behind the enemy, or I stand behind the rogue and get flanking with the tank. I don't get attacked a whole lot, either. Lunge has been amazing.
I dont like the -4 softcover malus in situations like this.