You get lots of characters and people who are tough but not strong. But where's an example of a hero who's strong but not tough? Hell, where's an example of a fantasy hero who's not tough?Achilles. Strong as hell, great warrior, but truly had one glaring weakness in his makeup.
Rincewind. Not tough by any stretch, but not a weakling in the classic sense.
Samson. Stronger than pretty much anyone, but shave his head and he's toast.
I can't speak for Rincewind, but Samson and Achilles were both EXTREMELY tough. They had specific weaknesses yes, but those holes in their defense were the only way people were able to take them out.
That's like having a PC with a 22+ Con, but some kind of specific trait that gives them a vulnerability.
Also, to DoveArrow. Constitution is already the singularly most important stat in the game. EVERYBODY needs a decent con, or they die. I don't think I've ever played a PC with less than 12 con, and I prefer 14ish.
I agree, con may not be my highest stat, but I always put a 14 in it, and I would have yet to see a player with less than 12 make it through a long campaign without dying.
I would have to see a character with a con dump score live to beleive it's possible without the DM's help.
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You get lots of characters and people who are tough but not strong. But where's an example of a hero who's strong but not tough? Hell, where's an example of a fantasy hero who's not tough?Achilles. Strong as hell, great warrior, but truly had one glaring weakness in his makeup.
Rincewind. Not tough by any stretch, but not a weakling in the classic sense.
Samson. Stronger than pretty much anyone, but shave his head and he's toast.
I can't speak for Rincewind, but Samson and Achilles were both EXTREMELY tough. They had specific weaknesses yes, but those holes in their defense were the only way people were able to take them out.
That's like having a PC with a 22+ Con, but some kind of specific trait that gives them a vulnerability.
For Achilles, I would have to say it was more of a case of a PC with a 30+ AC, or a high DR, rather than a 22+ CON. It wasn't that he could take the hit, it was that the hit would not have an effect (like a blow deflecting off of armor or being avoided from a high DEX score, etc.). The fact that a single hit to where his defense did not protect him would be a sign of a low level of toughness. Especially since he was hit by an arrow. In the back of the lower leg. How common is that for a killing blow? Definitely not a blow that would kill a tough guy.
A similar argument could be made for Samson. While he had the enchantment, he was a bada$$, but as soon as the power behind his defenses were gone, he was captured, blinded and enslaved. That his captors allowed his hair to grow back out was the only reason he was able to take down the temple (and himself with it). Granted, toppling a temple on top of one's enemies and oneself is a better way to go than by getting shot in the ankle. ;)
In both these cases it was magic (divine in both cases) that gave them the ability to walk away without a scratch, not a natural level of toughness (Which CON represents). Without the magic, they were not tougher than a normal person, and in Achilles' case, no better than a one-hit wonder. Definitely not tough to a heroic standard.
I already had this thought, and here's my solution (For a game other than D&D):
Physique: A stat that rules your general physical fitness, including how strong you are.
Agility: Full-body co-ordination
Intellect: Brain power
Willpower: What it says on the tin
And then derived stats:
Toughness: Physique+ willpower/2
Reaction: Agility + Intellect/2
Dexterity: Agility
Confidence: Mental toughness, Willpower+Intellect/2
The derived stats could be bought up or down as needed to employ a wide variety of characters. Toughness is as close as it gets to con for me. I don't like the idea of characters completely ignoring poisons, so that stat is more of a tolerance for pain than general well-being.
Also, to DoveArrow. Constitution is already the singularly most important stat in the game. EVERYBODY needs a decent con, or they die. I don't think I've ever played a PC with less than 12 con, and I prefer 14ish.
I know plenty of people who would disagree with you. After all, if you can get your AC up high enough that nobody can hit you, and if you spells up that give attackers a miss chance of some kind, then hit points are pretty much superfluous.
Regardless, Strength and Constitution are two of the most important stats in the game, and combining them would only make them that much more powerful. So even if you want to quibble over which one is better, Strength or Constitution, I don't think you can argue that neither one of them is important.
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Constitution is already the singularly most important stat in the game. EVERYBODY needs a decent con, or they die. I don't think I've ever played a PC with less than 12 con, and I prefer 14ish.
I disagree. Here's why:
Con effects: hit points, a saving throw, zero skills.
Having a 14 con instead of a 12 con means you have: 1 extra hit point per level, +1 Fortitude.
Dex effects: armor class, ranged attack rolls, initiative, a saving throw, seven skills.
Having a 14 dex instead of a 12 dex means you have: +1 AC, +1 to ranged attack rolls (including some spells), +1 Initiative, +1 Reflex, +1 to Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Stealth, and, if you're trained, +1 to Disable Device and Sleight of Hand.
1 extra point of AC is almost already better than 1 hit point per level. I've rather have 9 hp and 15 AC at level 1 rather than 10 hp and 14 AC, and I'd rather have 100 hp and 25 AC at level 20 than 120 hp and 24 AC. Especially considering all the other stuff that Dex does for you...
Just my two cents.
In fairness to Achilles, I believe the arrow was poisoned and when Paris loosed the arrow, Apollo (god of archery) was guiding the arrow.
That was definitely Hector, whom he slew after Hector had slain Achilles' best friend Patroclus.
I'm finding it interesting that some posters feel they need an example of an existing high-str, low-con fictional character in order to justify the fact that D&D can allow such a combo.
Other posters are debating over optimization of characters either needing or not needing a high con just to stay alive.
Is that a coincidence? :-)
Somewhere up thread someone posted an example character called Frank that supposedly exhibited this high strength and low con.
I have one too. He's called Sammy. I just made him up. It's quite easy when you know how.
I could post some backstory explanation why he can do sudden bursts of speed or hit hard every so often, but is otherwise quite wheezy, but I'm sure most of you lot can fill in those blanks yourselves. If you need inspiration, remember that D&D is a magical fantasy game, and any numb er of incongruous things can happen without affecting SOD as long as you're canny.
But if Charisma determined attack ability, Intelligence determined the power of effect and Wisdom served as a mental health attribute...This doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making, so I'm not sure why you're replying to me.
I was clarifying something you'd responded to earlier, but the last part is probably worth agreeing with.
For D&D-style games I'd say it's just too late. Maybe one can do a little something about Charisma, but other than that it's probably hopeless.
This is definitely true. Considering how many people swear by the big six as core to character creation, I'm not sure most players are even open to non-D&D stat systems in other games. I've seen OGL systems that mash Con and Strength together, but I think OGL means D&D to a lot of people too.
There are some systems that have used other stat breakdowns: the Tri-Stat system of Big Eyes, Small Mouth had Body (all physical stuff), Mind (all mental stuff), and Soul (spiritual stuff, luck, willpower, confidence). The key was that all derived combat values worked off two or more of these stats together. Instead of having multiple stats to tinker with to get a certain concept such as "tough but weak" you simply bought disadvantages to denote weak areas of the wider stat. Since this didn't effect combat values you could have a character who matched a concept, got payed for it, but wasn't gimped by it in important areas (unless you wanted that).
Another game called BASH mashes physical stuff into just Brawn and Agility, about what I think the OP is asking. Don't know too much about that system, though.
I like BESM in theory, but the simplicity at the core is often a trade-off for more number crunching later on, whether it's derived stat calculations or buying advantages and disadvantages. It's just not something you can pick up and play with all the options turned on.
Six is probably the magic number.
Mickey Mantle - could hit a 500 foot homer, and he played hurt, but injuries and disease took him out of the 1961 home run race. High STR, probably decent CON to boot.
Yogi Berra - not a power hitter, but had an exceptionally long career behind the plate. Low STR, good CON.
Jack Crow from John Steakley's Armor - not the strongest, fastest, or best man by his own admission, but always the "toughest man in the universe". Got out-muscled on several occasions but could take a hell of a beating.
Having a couple of stats that (nearly) every character will want is a good thing, particularly if you do any kind of point buying for character gen. Moderate multiple-attribute dependency is a good thing.
