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Something that occured to me in another thread, on the ever popular 'player wants a monster character'.
One of the big problems with monsters is the out of whack ability scores. Monsters need large bonuses to things like Str and Dex as you move up the CRs, to keep them competitive with the PCs in terms of attacks and AC. So of course when a player wants to play that monster, for good or ill, he wants the bonuses.
My solution? No one gets ability adjustments. Not monster races, not PC races. This works best if you're a point buyer and can bump up to the next total to compensate.
"But wait! How will we show the racial differences between them? How will we know orcs are stronger than humans, and elves more dexterous?"
Because the orc PC puts more points into Str, and the elf PC puts more into Dex.
Seriously. The MM scores are just what the average representative of the race has. There are weaker and stronger specimens of each throughout the world. A real-world bodybuilder doesn't have a +2 Str because of his race, it's because he's trained (read: spent more points) to build up his Str score. There are orc wizards out there with unusal intelligence for their race. They probably have a higher Str score than a human wizard would, but they shouldn't be hard coded into a +X Str and a -Y Int.
Plus, the PCs are not your average character. They are the same as Bob the Builder slaving away in the city. They get to either conform to the stereotype, or break out of it. That is their choice.
So the only time you should ever use the ability score adjustments is if you're rolling 3d6 in order. Then they actually mean something.
"Okay smart guy, what about those troublesome abilities monsters get that the PCs don't have?"
Well, funny thing is, most of those abilities have a counterpart.
Magic spells.
Flight, invisibility, regeneration, things like this are available. So you know what we have. A reference point, for when it is okay to give a PC that power.
Hit Dice.
So once your angel PC has reached the level where wizards can cast Fly, it's okay to give them that flight. I promise.
So you look at every ability the monster gets, and see if you can match it up to a spell or magic item. Figure our when a wizard could reasonably match the ability with a spell or item. That's the character level your monster PC can use that ability.
Is this going to work for every monster? Heck no. A lot of higher level things are built arbitrarily. The designer said "hey this sounds like a good ability to give the PCs a hard time with!" and slapped it on there. So, just like the CR system before, you're going to have to eyeball it.
I'll break off here before I run out of steam, and see if I can't post up a few examples.
This works well if you remove the cap on ability scores, and, perhaps, mandate certain minimums. (Like at least one mental and physical stat must be 12 or more)
I've occasionally considered letting people buy ability score points with feats (+1 to whatever per feat). I wonder how much it would imbalance the game to do that?
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So let's look at the minotaur.
Ability scores don't matter of course. You're probably maxing Str and mining Int/Cha anyway.
Large size is the first ability we notice. Monstrous humanoid, darkvision 60ft, and Natural Cunning.
So Large size. Well, Enlarge Person is a first level spell. But this is always on. IIRC, having that was a +1 LA in 3.5. So I would say 3HD to be safe.
Monstrous humanoid and darkvision aren't anything special, works for 1st level.
Natural Cunning. Hmm, can't be flat-footed, never gets lost, immunity to one 8th level spell. Forget the spell, it rarely comes into play. Never getting lost is easy to handle by Survival. Can't be flat-footed? Sounds like Uncanny Dodge! Which most classes get at 2nd level. I imagine it doesn't stack, so 1st level it is!
Now to go find something harder.
Edit: Forgot Powerful Charge. Not a big deal, 1st level as well.
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This works well if you remove the cap on ability scores, and, perhaps, mandate certain minimums. (Like at least one mental and physical stat must be 12 or more)
I've occasionally considered letting people buy ability score points with feats (+1 to whatever per feat). I wonder how much it would imbalance the game to do that?
Getting past the 18 mark in anything is really something that should be done by leveling, IMO. Minimums don't really add anything to the game as far as I can see. We already have minimums at 10, with buybacks for going lower.
I see absolutely no problems with letting people buy ability increases with feats. You only get so many feats, and sometimes you need to boost a poor roll from character gen. Seriously, I don't see why people thought you should wait until epic to be able to waste feats on ability bumps. I don't know anyone who wasted their time on them before getting all the combat/magic feats they needed.
+1 per feat seems pretty balanced. You need two feats to bump, say, Wisdom, or you could spend a single feat on +2 Will (if that's what you prefer).
As for Enlarge Person, keep in mind you can get it with Permanency at CL 9.
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+1 per feat seems pretty balanced. You need two feats to bump, say, Wisdom, or you could spend a single feat on +2 Will (if that's what you prefer).
As for Enlarge Person, keep in mind you can get it with Permanency at CL 9.
That seems a little long to wait for a PC. Especially since that is the main schtick of the minotaur. Big bull brute. He might not even make level 9, so let him have some fun being the big man stomping goblins and guardsmen.
Honestly, for the cost of a feat I'd be handing out two points to any chosen stat. The problem comes from casters trying to hit that all the time on the same stat. Hmmm. Maybe... Maybe a 'special' note that it can only be taken twice on the same stat?
It would become a +1 to Spell DCs pretty easily otherwise. Hence why I wouldn't make it +2 to a single stat. Maybe +1 to two different stats. If the wizard wants to burn feats like that, fine by me.
TriOmega:
It occurs to me that given Minotaurs can't actually get bigger until much later than most characters (they are monstrous humanoids, so can't benefit from enlarge person, but instead need something like righteous might).
That might make it reasonable.
Kyrt:
Consider +2 Con, two feats under my suggestion:
+1 hit point per level
+1 Fort save
+1 on Con skill checks
Lower point before dying (-Constitution)
+1 on Con ability checks (rare, mind you)
More Con to eat up with Con drain/damage
Consider Toughness and Great Fortitude.
Buying +2 Con gives the benefit of Toughness, about half the benefit of Great Fortitude, and a variety of minor benefits.
That seems balanced to me.
I had actually been thinking of something like this for a low fantasy game, so I'm really keen on it.
One thing that bothered me was the idea of 'what if you want to be an ogre sorcerer?' and you ended up with a Str of, oh, 12 or 14.
Why should you be paying through the nose for class features (IE: ability bonuses) you aren't using?
So, buy the scores you want.
I also like the idea in another thread about buying other racial abilities with feats.
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Okay, next up, Ghaele Azata, since I have such a PC in my upcoming game.
Land speed of 50ft. Fly speed of 150ft. Darkvision and low-light. +12 natural armor.
DR 10/cold iron and evil. Immunity to petrification and electricity. Resist cold and fire 10. SR 25.
Spell-likes: Constant: Detect Evil, Holy Aura, See Invisible.
At will: Aid, Charm Monster, Continual Flame, Cure Light Wounds, Dancing Lights, Detect Thoughts, Disguise Self, Dispel Magic, Hold Monster, Greater Invisibility(self), Major Image, Greater Teleport.
3/ Globe of Invulnerablity.
1/ Chain Lightning, Prismatic Spray, Wall of Force.
Gaze attack, Light Rays. Truespeech. Light Form.
MAN am I glad we're not giving ability adjustments. +10s and +8s all over. So let's get started.
What's that? Don't they get spell casting as a 13th level cleric? Um, no, if you want 13th level cleric spells, go earn 13 levels of cleric. Bam, balanced.
Okay, they get a +20ft of movement over other races. I don't know why, but whatever. Barbarians get fast movement at 1st, monks at 4th. Expeditious retreat is a 1st level spell and gives +30ft. So hey, start 'em out with +10 at 1st level, increasing to +20 at 4th level. And make it an enhancement bonus. Sorry to all the ghaele monks and barbarians.
Darkvision and lowlight are again, no big deal. 1st level.
+12 Natural Armor. That's a hefty chunk. Let's see what the the rules say on nat. armor. +1 is 2k. Barkskin is a 2nd level spell for +2. Obviously the ghaele is going to outpace anything else. Best to make it a +1 per odd level. Is this too good? Maybe. But hey, we're letting the player play the monster, it wouldn't be fair to deny him all the good stuff.
DR 10/cold iron and evil. Well, Stone Skin is a 4th level spell. So we start it out at DR 5/evil at 8HD, and bump it up to full at 16HD. Just being conservative on this one. It could probably come earlier.
Immunity to petrification and electricity. Well, petrification is an uncommon effect for the most part. Would it hurt to have it from 1st level? I don't know of any spell that protects against it. It will help against the handful of monsters that have the ability, and against some spellcasters. That's my view. Electricity immunity at least has a counterpart in the rings of energy resistance. I could see 5 at 1st, 10 at 4th, 20 at 8th, 30 at 12th, and finally immunity at 16th.
SR is easy. You gain SR equal to your level +10.
Detect Evil, Holy Aura, See Invisible. Well, Detect Evil is a Paladin thing, so 1st level is fine. Holy Aura is a 8th level spell, so it can kick on at 16th. Maybe earlier. See Invisible can kick on at 9th at the latest, maybe 6th if you're daring.
Globe of Invulnerability, Chain Lightning, Prismatic Spray, and Wall of Force can all come in at the level a wizard could get them. Easy enough.
The at-wills are pretty tricky. Obviously we don't want infinite healing, so no Cure spells. Aid should be alright for 4th. Charm Monster should be treated as the Warlock invocation, so 6th. 6th for Continual Flame as well. Dancing Lights is a cantrip. Disguise Self can be 1st level. Dispel Magic is another invocation, so 6th. Same with Major Image. Greater Invisibility can be 8th, or 11th to match the Warlock invocation for the less daring. Greater Teleport, with its restrictions, I would judge 14th as fine. Hold Monster and Detect Thoughts I'm not sure about. I'll have to check magic items to compare to the spells.
Truespeech is just the Tongues spell, so 1st or 4th, whichever is more comfortable.
The Gaze attack is tricky. Too early, and it wipes out encounters, too late and it's useless. 5th at the earliest, 7-8th at the latest.
Now for the Light Form. This is tricky. You get flight and incorporalness. 6th level for the flight, 17-18th for the incorporalness. Kind of hard to justify splitting them. This will have to be an individual DM call I think.
Maybe I'll write that up in chart form at some point. That was a lot of work. HAHA! Copy all saves me from writing it all over!
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Yeah, that does sound better. Good idea, +1 to two stats.
Even better would be to line them up like so.
Mental growth: +1 Int and any other mental stat
Physical Growth: +1 to any two physical scores.
Hence the casters that are boosting their DC's either buffing their will DC's or skill points or social ability at the same time, rather than stuffing all the extra points into Con or Dex.
I'm stealing those, thanks. :)
That's a neat idea - although it does require a lot more re-working of the system from the ground up. I, for one, like spending my points to get the best out of the +2 boosts from what ever race I'm picking - they make a big difference to your maximum scores, and weaning people away from that idea might well be difficult.
A question: Rather than giving players larger point-buy totals, how about scaling the bonuses to stats that players get from +1 every four levels to +1 every two levels? You can add a 'no boosting the same attribute score twice in a row' rule if you fear someone might place themselves exorbitant scores.
At this point it makes more sense to me to go with a classless system like GURPS -- or, if you want to keep supporting Paizo, with the Classless system conversion I did for the Beta (google Kirth Gersen's Classless Pathfinder). Instead of hard class and racial restrictions, all abilities are a la carte -- there's never any question when you get Large size; you get it when you pay the xp cost for it.
Aren't you basically just reinventing the monster progressions from Savage Species (but with fewer ability score boosts and more hit dice)?
That seems a little overly dismissive, don't you think?
For one thing, there's no 'monster class' featured here, which is a very different thing.
That seems a little overly dismissive, don't you think?
I think that there were many problems with Savage Species, but the "monster class" idea was fine. The implementation wasn't very good (particularly for monsters where HD << ECL), but that doesn't mean it was a bad idea.
For one thing, there's no 'monster class' featured here, which is a very different thing.
Not sure what you mean by that. I was looking at this quote:
"So once your angel PC has reached the level where wizards can cast Fly, it's okay to give them that flight. I promise."
Doesn't that imply that there's an "angel class" of some sort? I freely admit I could be misinterpreting things, of course.
The big problem with the monster classes were how front-loaded they were. I love the idea, though, just needs to be rebalanced (IMO).
I THINK... there's no angel class of any sort, he's talking about character level.
That is, if your angel is in a party of 5-6 level adventurers, it seems reasonable to give him fly, because the wizards and sorcerers can start casting it. Or maybe a little later, like 9th, when wizards can start casting overland flight.
The point is that being able to fly is only a huge advantage if almost no one else can fly. If most people can if they want to? It shouldn't cost you much, if anything.
Same with things like size and so forth.
The big problem with the monster classes were how front-loaded they were. I love the idea, though, just needs to be rebalanced (IMO).
I THINK... there's no angel class of any sort, he's talking about character level.
That is, if your angel is in a party of 5-6 level adventurers, it seems reasonable to give him fly, because the wizards and sorcerers can start casting it. Or maybe a little later, like 9th, when wizards can start casting overland flight.
The point is that being able to fly is only a huge advantage if almost no one else can fly. If most people can if they want to? It shouldn't cost you much, if anything.
Same with things like size and so forth.
This is an interesting idea ... I guess the concern is that a monster character would have all these abilities in addition to the abilities any character of the same class would have and would thus outperform regular race characters by needing to expend fewer resources to obtain a similar result. Take the ghaele azatas flight ability. Yes a wizard or sorceror could cast overland flight to get the same effect but if the ghaele is also a sor/wiz that amounts to extra available spells prepared (since to equal the effect you'd need to cast overland flight twice each day until you hit 12th and cast a 24hr duration extended version). Ghaele azatas can also fly in an antimagic field, getting flight from a spell doesn't. Also comparing to Permanency seems like a good idea but one successful dispel magic and poof! the resources expended are wasted whereas with it being a racial ability even if it is magical in nature you can reactivate it later easily. This may seem like penny pinching and it is but at the same time you add up the differences over time and it does present a concern. Perhaps there should be some sort of offsetting cost for certain features ... Kirths idea of paying xp for them (or a feat slot, or perhaps even skill points or reducing spell slots per day or spells known) could be reasonable. Edit: thought of another possibility-Green Ronin has the Advanced Player's Handbook where the race chapter for the common races allows you to substitute new abilities for the core races existing ones by assigning a point cost to all abilities and giving each an effective total of 30 points to spend on racial abilities. This is a good idea don't get me wrong, it'll just need to be carefully thought out.
I'm stealing those, thanks. :)Yeah, that does sound better. Good idea, +1 to two stats.
Even better would be to line them up like so.
Mental growth: +1 Int and any other mental stat
Physical Growth: +1 to any two physical scores.
Hence the casters that are boosting their DC's either buffing their will DC's or skill points or social ability at the same time, rather than stuffing all the extra points into Con or Dex.
I'll steal those as well although I'll tweak mental growth to be any 2 mental stats since if I'm playing a cleric I'll want to boost wis and cha but int will be less of a concern.
The big problem with the monster classes were how front-loaded they were. I love the idea, though, just needs to be rebalanced (IMO).
I THINK... there's no angel class of any sort, he's talking about character level.
Oh -- now I understand. You don't have outsider hit dice, you have regular PC class hit dice and the angel stuff is just an added bonus.
I guess my question then is the same as Steven Purcell's: why would you ever play an orc (that has roughly 0 abilities) instead of an angel (that has a bunch of abilities)? Even if you're getting abilities at the appropriate levels, a free level-appropriate ability is a lot better than nothing.
I dont think getting free abilities at certain levels solves anything, it just creates other problems.
How are you going to balance a hill giant with a dwarven fighter ?
I think the problem with this system is that while it levels the playing field, it does it to well - race is basically reduced to a flavour box on your character sheet, and it effectively requires a complete re-write of the system.
The way I tried it in this thread has the advantage of slotting directly into the system as is and keeps race as an important feature.
Ah, but there lies the question. Why does race need to have mechanical significance?
It doesn't necessarily have to, but that's equivalent to saying, "No, you can't play a minotaur/angel/dragon from the Bestiary, but you can play a human in a minotaur/angel/dragon costume". Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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I guess my question then is the same as Steven Purcell's: why would you ever play an orc (that has roughly 0 abilities) instead of an angel (that has a bunch of abilities)? Even if you're getting abilities at the appropriate levels, a free level-appropriate ability is a lot better than nothing.
Obviously, because your DM doesn't let you play crazy monster characters. I figure if you're using this system, you already have permission to play whatever you want. This is just better than being charged a crazy LA or screwed with racial HD.
Ah, but there lies the question. Why does race need to have mechanical significance?
Because taking a race option requires selecting a particular set of strengths and weaknesses. The different races are mechanically different in D&D, and always have been to a greater or lesser degree. If you want low-light vision, you need to be a member of a race that has that feature, and that means taking the rough with the smooth. Take away this set of pros and cons and you will have every character tending to possess the same qualities regardless of what race they have chosen.
Why do we need race to be anything more than a tool of the stories we tell?
Why don't we all go play 4e or GURPS? Why do we need rules at all? I play Pathfinder because it has the features I like in a game. That includes races that work mechanically slightly differently.
Would it be so wrong for the gameworld to be balanced to the degree where anybody could be anything, instead of mechanics shoehorning various races into various roles?
In the first place, they don't shoe-horn. A human can make as good a wizard as an elf, for example. There is a certain challenge in taking a race into a role they are not normally associated with (I can remember when Dwarf wizards fell into this category, and elf melee-fighters, and half-orc sorcerers) as well that can be fun. In what way does the current system shoe-horn, then? Only in the case of races which require 'Monster' levels. TriOmegaZero's suggested method of dealing with this is to make race just a colour option that has no bearing on your initial build, and cherry pick the special abilities you want as you go up in level.
I think this is going too far. The system I proposed in this thread uses a less extreme version: Creatures with advanced 'racial' levels can instead start as PC races and take character levels, with the option to buy the more advanced forms of their racial powers with feats. You still get adjustments to base scores, you still get some weaknesses and strengths compared to other races. My idea was not to tamper with the mechanics of the game itself, but to just propose another way of balancing more powerful races with PC races (other than level adjustments) in a way that integrates smoothly into the Pathfinder system as is. I don't want to write Pathfinder 2.
I guess my question then is the same as Steven Purcell's: why would you ever play an orc (that has roughly 0 abilities) instead of an angel (that has a bunch of abilities)? Even if you're getting abilities at the appropriate levels, a free level-appropriate ability is a lot better than nothing.Obviously, because your DM doesn't let you play crazy monster characters. I figure if you're using this system, you already have permission to play whatever you want. This is just better than being charged a crazy LA or screwed with racial HD.
Touché!
So in your game with the ghaele, what other races are folks going to use?
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So in your game with the ghaele, what other races are folks going to use?
Catfolk, lizardfolk, draconic template changling, two halflings, and an elf. Still waiting on the last guy to say. They don't actually know he is playing a ghaele. We're playing Shackled City and the character is an accomplice of Celeste, undercover as a traveling priest. He is using the Savage Species racial class instead of what I just worked up, however. I'm curious to see if he will survive.
Personally, I'd just have people buy race abilities as slotless magic items and not try to create fancy equivalences. If you don't like how expensive Fly is, buy overland flight 1/day effect or something.
One thing about winged flight: it works in an antimagic field and can't be dispelled, but Fly spells don't stop working if someone entangles or Holds you. I find that at least passably balanced.
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I do want to thank you all for the feedback. I knew it was a rather large step away from what people expect, but I am pretty comfortable with it. I know it isn't for everyone.
I do apologize for not being as clear about my intention. This system is meant to cut out racial hit dice and level adjustment. Each ability has a minimum level before it becomes available. So as the character progresses in a character class, those abilities are like racial class features. Just putting this down to help anyone else who comes along and reads it.
Not sure if I have any more points to make, but I'll be sure to post any more thoughts I have. Maybe chart up that ghaele to compare it to the Savage Species class. Which was an inspiration for this idea, I admit.
This system is meant to cut out racial hit dice and level adjustment. Each ability has a minimum level before it becomes available.
The only thing I didn't like about the "monster classes" was when you had fewer HD than levels. If the "extra" power could be in the form of feats instead of levels, I think you'd have a winner. Of course, that would suck for a PC vampire, but after the whole "Twilight" craze, I WANT the game to actively screw anyone who wants to play a vampire.
There are people who like vampires who aren't interested in all that Mary Sue glittering stuff :)
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The only thing I didn't like about the "monster classes" was when you had fewer HD than levels. If the "extra" power could be in the form of feats instead of levels, I think you'd have a winner.
And I'm sure it's workable to charge feat slots to access the abilities if you like. I just don't like taking away feats from low level characters.
Personally, I think that when it comes to monsters, they should be treated as a class like in games Tunnels and Trolls.
I think you could use the idea of the Eidolon (from the new Summoner class) as the base idea.
The player has a base set of form that they have some options that they can pick from.
When the player advances in level they get to 'mutate' and acquire other abilities.
Abilities would be set out in a series of tables with some point costs depending on how powerful each of the abilities were and how useful the abilities were.
When a player leveled, they would get an increasing number of points to mutate themselves with to become a more powerful monster. They could likely trade in points when they level to rebuy their new form.
You don't start as a monster but you 'become' the monster.
If you have become the biggest baddest monster that you want then you seemless transition at your next level by choosing a class. Later, if you feel you are not done being a monster then you could take a new level of monster. You could also choose just to spend your whole adventuring life as a monster.
I think trying to make hundreds of different balanced racial choices is never going to work and going to create a huge book of recipes that won't work. Instead, I think you need to give everyone a base upon which they can then choose what ever they want.
You might even add a final modifier to the whole by using the theme packages that are now being done with several of the new classes (Sorcerer, Wizard, Oracle, Cavalier). This would allow a player to get a few of the benefits of more themed build like Draconic, Undead, Elemental and make it so all the monster builds do not end up as a homogenous whole by having that few extra bits that kick into to remind people of the differances in monsters.
I think this is the best way for players to make their hundred armed oozing spell caster or thier eventually adult red dragon or thier hive tyrant. It also will simplify the work as you will only have one base (with likely a choice of two of three best saves. Increased die type for hit points would likely be a buy option based on level to get acess).