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An interesting observation from one of the writers over at rpg.net:
A Brief History of Game #18: 2009 in Review: The RPGs
D&D Only Fractures a Little: The final big RPG event of 2009 was almost a fizzle. Perched on the edge of 2009 with games like Pathfinder Beta and True 20 already available, it looked like the entire d20 market might shatter. 2009 saw more releases with the full Pathfinder, Trailblazer, FantasyCraft, and others ... but no real shattering.
Though some games, like FantasyCraft have gotten pretty big kudos, I'm pretty surprised that only one has got big third party attention: Pathfinder. Though the scale is smaller, the flocking of PDF and small-print publishers to Pathfinder reminds me of nothing less than the third-party adoption of d20 back in 2000-2001. I think that some of Paizo's hype on Pathfinder's success is just that, but you can't argue with the fact that an increasing number of publishers seem to be treating Pathfinder as the de facto system to publish for if you want to continue supporting 3.5E. If that success continues into 2010, then Paizo will clearly have achieved their goal with the new game.
I find Paizo's success particularly notable because it coincides with Mongoose backing off of their RuneQuest open license. Though Mongoose has made their RuneQuest available for easy licensed development since 2006, in the span of just four or five months, Paizo has already surpassed both the number of third-party developers and the number of third-party products for their own Pathfinder system, by my rough estimate. Mongoose's decision to drop the OGL from RuneQuest II, scheduled for this January, is a clear acceptance of the fact that RuneQuest just won't be the next big open system. Neither, I suspect, will FantasyCraft or the many other worthy contenders. Pathfinder seems to have the spot sewn up tight, as 2009 comes to a close.
Thoughts? Feelings? Observations?
Chief Technical Officer
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I think that some of Paizo's hype on Pathfinder's success is just that...
Maybe the writer and I have differing definitions of "hype", but I personally feel like we were responsible for very little "hype." Certainly, our open playtest kept people talking, but our actual marketing was pretty low-key and *very* low-budget. Our only really notable expenditures were printing the Bonus Bestiary for Free RPG Day and printing a single promo poster for retailers. (And then we sold copies of each of those on paizo.com to help cover the costs of doing them.)
Other than that, we really only did the normal things we do to support our products: we ran a couple of ads for the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary (mainly, those ran in our own products, though we did run them a couple other places); we sent occasional e-mails to those paizo.com customers who let us send them such things; we did our semi-regular product catalog; we showed up at Gen Con.
We didn't even send out that many press releases. In all of 2009, we sent out 18 press releases as a company, and only four of them were about the Pathfinder RPG: one announcing the Compatibility License; the April Fool's Day "d21" press release; one announcing that the first print run of the Core Rulebook was sold out, and another announcing the open playtest for the Advanced Player's Guide. Heck, we sent out five press releases to promote RPG Superstar in 2009!
Mainly, we just put out the best products we can manage, and leave the "hype" to others.
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Mainly, we just put out the best products we can manage, and leave the "hype" to others.
... strangely now I feel like a used piece of meat knowing both my brothers bought the guidebook and bestiary because of me ...
... well played sir >_> But this is not over yet!!
... though it probably totally is ^_^
I constantly hype Pathfinder
Happy customers are the best advertising one can get! Well unless
Oprah gave away copies under your seat!
Now if we could just get Oprah to do that...
HAHAHAHA
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I constantly hype Pathfinder
Happy customers are the best advertising one can get!
I definitely agree with that. I've advertised by running a 1-off for my (previously fourth edition) group using Pathfinder RPG, which they liked enough that we voted to switch to PRPG.
Same goes for running PFS games at the FLGS. At the last game, of the 5 people in the group, only one had actually played using the new rules. They all liked it and are coming back for more next week.
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Don't think that the article claimed that Pathfinder owned 2009, since they weren't one of the big two companies that claimed the RPG spot light, but the ones they picked weren't ones I'd pick. I think it fractured a lot more then a little as well, at least given the people I know.
Dark Heresy and the Warhammer board game/RPG thing that they made is likewise pretty...not something I enjoyed playing to be put nicely.
Good work to Paizo though, keep up the good work and savor your Open Sourceness.
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CEO
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I spent some time browsing on rpg.net the other day and if that was your view of the world (ie. being on those forums exclusively), you would have to say that Pathfinder is a non-event. Hardly anybody is talking about the game over there. It was very weird. I am pretty sure that Pathfinder was at least one of the top five best selling RPG products for 2009 and may very well have been the top 1 or 2. Since nobody in our industry gives out sales numbers, I have to go with what I heard from distributors and what I can glean from the bookscan numbers in the book trade. But on rpg.net, you would think that Cubicle 7 sold about 20 times more than Paizo (not that I have anything against Cubicle 7, their Dr. Who game looks very interesting).
Oh well, we'll let the Pathfinder RPG be our "little secret!" :)
-Lisa
I spent some time browsing on rpg.net the other day and if that was your view of the world (ie. being on those forums exclusively), you would have to say that Pathfinder is a non-event. Hardly anybody is talking about the game over there. It was very weird. I am pretty sure that Pathfinder was at least one of the top five best selling RPG products for 2009 and may very well have been the top 1 or 2. Since nobody in our industry gives out sales numbers, I have to go with what I heard from distributors and what I can glean from the bookscan numbers in the book trade. But on rpg.net, you would think that Cubicle 7 sold about 20 times more than Paizo (not that I have anything against Cubicle 7, their Dr. Who game looks very interesting).
Oh well, we'll let the Pathfinder RPG be our "little secret!" :)
-Lisa
Screw a secret, Pathfinder is like the love you've gotta shout from a rooftop.
Seriously, to pull me back into roleplaying after a 4 year hiatus because I couldn't stand most players anymore, with just a rules set (which does nothing to fix the other players, let me tell you), is evidence of how awesome Pathfinder is, and how it should NEVER be kept a secret. Roleplayers the world over deserve a chance to discover Pathfinder. So I say to all the other satisfied Pathfinder customers out there, SPREAD THE HYPE FAR AND WIDE!!!!
To all the folks using the word "hype". I know the word has normal or positive meanings but it also has negative meanings as well and I tend to avoid using the word just because of that. I am betting the writer of that was using one of the negative meanings if Pathfinder really gets such little attention at rpg.net. Just going by dictionary.com for definitions, one meaning for hype when used as a verb is "to trick", and all of the meanings for hype when used as a noun are negative, like this one: "an ingenious or questionable claim, method, etc., used in advertising, promotion, or publicity to intensify the effect." This is the one I am sure the writer at rpg.net was using for hype in that article.
What's rpg.net? ;)
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let's see...in 2009 I purchased Trailblazer, FantasyCraft, Savage Worlds (Pinnacle, TAG, 12 to Midnight), Trail of Cthulhu (Gumshoe), CthulhuTech (Framewerk), Magpie, EclipsePhase, 54-Fantasy (uses a deck of cards instead of dice) not to mention tons of OGL, C&C, OSRIC, and Labyrinth Lord materials.
I play Pathfinder.
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During the Beta, Pathfinder was chastised at rpg.net by no less than three groups of critics: the anti-D&D crowd (rpg.net is much less d20 focused than enworld), the pro-4ed crowd (obviously) and the merry bunch of Den posters who got kicked from Paizo forums for being utter jerks during the Beta.
Between those three groups PF got pretty much butchered, and isn't really taken seriously over there.
Ah, ok. I was never a fan of rpg.net and now there is just one more reason for me to not want to go there.
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I abandoned RPG.NET a LONG time ago. They are like the Fox News of rpg sites. Claim to be unbiased but aren't. I find their site almost completely irrelevant to real life gaming.
And fractured industry? Anyone remember playing in the 80s-90s? D&D, Shadowrun, Hero, GURPS, Cyberpunk, Twilight 2000, Vampire, Star Wars, Traveller, heck every single game we played had different rules. But we still played several different games. Anyone remember Creature Feature? lol I LOVED that one! lol
I don't think a fractured industry would hurt any. In fact might bring about some new ideas... wow what a concept!
Iron Crown Enterprises (ICE) actually never went away. They just lost the license for the Middle Earth setting. They still put out stuff for Rolemaster, Spacemaster, HARP, and other stuff.
And I consider White Wolf to still be around because the company still uses that name instead of it disappearing like TSR's company name did when WotC bought them.
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Anyway, back to the OP link, I believe that there is a valid point that Pathfinder is the new 3.5 as far as 3PP are concerned. Somewhere on Enworld there is a post about John Goodman (the most stalwart 3PP supporter of 4ed) reconsidering making "system-neutral" adventures or providing separate downloads of rules for each game.
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During the Beta, Pathfinder was chastised at rpg.net by no less than three groups of critics: the anti-D&D crowd (rpg.net is much less d20 focused than enworld), the pro-4ed crowd (obviously) and the merry bunch of Den posters who got kicked from Paizo forums for being utter jerks during the Beta.
Between those three groups PF got pretty much butchered, and isn't really taken seriously over there.
Even now, it's extremely difficult to talk about Pathfinder over there without some of the forum regulars showing up to complain about how "Paizo promised to fix 3.5 but then just made everything worse." (Oddly, pointing out how what they're saying isn't actually true seems to produce no effect except to cause the threads to die.) It's... frustrating, particularly since rpg.net used to be my RPG forum of choice.
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Anyway, back to the OP link, I believe that there is a valid point that Pathfinder is the new 3.5 as far as 3PP are concerned. Somewhere on Enworld there is a post about John Goodman (the most stalwart 3PP supporter of 4ed) reconsidering making "system-neutral" adventures or providing separate downloads of rules for each game.
Isn't that one of the things that the 4e license specifically prohibits?
edit: (not the system neutral adventures, but the multiple ruleset releases.)
Anyway, back to the OP link, I believe that there is a valid point that Pathfinder is the new 3.5 as far as 3PP are concerned. Somewhere on Enworld there is a post about John Goodman (the most stalwart 3PP supporter of 4ed) reconsidering making "system-neutral" adventures or providing separate downloads of rules for each game.
Isn't that one of the things that the 4e license specifically prohibits?
edit: (not the system neutral adventures, but the multiple ruleset releases.)
I believe WotC relaxed that restriction in a later version of the GSL.
I believe WotC relaxed that restriction in a later version of the GSL.
Isn't that one of the things that the 4e license specifically prohibits?edit: (not the system neutral adventures, but the multiple ruleset releases.)
At any rate, Goodman is publishing 4E material that doesn't use the GSL; it doesn't matter if he's violating the GSL, if he isn't using it.
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And fractured industry? Anyone remember playing in the 80s-90s? D&D, Shadowrun, Hero, GURPS, Cyberpunk, Twilight 2000, Vampire, Star Wars, Traveller, heck every single game we played had different rules. But we still played several different games. Anyone remember Creature Feature? lol I LOVED that one! lol
I don't think a fractured industry would hurt any. In fact might bring about some new ideas... wow what a concept!
Of the companies that made those games in the 80s and 90s, only Steve Jackson Games exists to this day. TSR got eaten by WotC, White Wolf got eaten by CCP Games (the EVE Online guys), FASA is gone, ICE is gone, GDW is gone, and WEG is gone. In fact, only SJ Games, FASA, and White Wolf survived until 2000.
So there is a cost to a fractured industry.
HERO is still around though I believe they recently got purchased by some gaming company as well.
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Anyway, back to the OP link, I believe that there is a valid point that Pathfinder is the new 3.5 as far as 3PP are concerned. Somewhere on Enworld there is a post about John Goodman (the most stalwart 3PP supporter of 4ed) reconsidering making "system-neutral" adventures or providing separate downloads of rules for each game.
Ooooooh! I like that. I'll have to check it out. That, or query it over at the Goodman Game boards.
I think Pathfinder can learn a lesson from Wizards and DDI, and license a solid character generator. I am not sure how that hits the bottom line in regards to selling hardcopy rule books, but it is the last remaining piece for me to decide to play any roleplaying games.
Yep, a lesson on how NOT to screw your players for more money. I don't mind subscribing to the product lines, in fact I love that I am able to. I am NOT going to subscribe to website to have online access to the information in books that I already own.
A better example would be GURPS Character Assistant. Fully cusomizable for your huserules and homebrew stuff. (It's a little complicated, but GURPS is a complex system). It doesn't require a subscription, it's a onetime fee and updates are free.
Ed Healy and I have a podcast called RPG Countdown... we're trying to be like Billboard, only we track RPG sales as best we can despite this industry not being as forthcoming as any other types of entertainment media (music/movies/literature - all of which compete out in the open, touting their sales figures).
We've noticed over the last year that PFRPGr compatibility with third party publishers is outshining D&D 4e compatibility something like 4 to 1. Really incredible and not something I would have guessed a year ago. That's not hype. That just is what it be. :)
Anyway, back to the OP link, I believe that there is a valid point that Pathfinder is the new 3.5 as far as 3PP are concerned. Somewhere on Enworld there is a post about John Goodman (the most stalwart 3PP supporter of 4ed) reconsidering making "system-neutral" adventures or providing separate downloads of rules for each game.
Joseph Goodman supported 4e.
John Goodman supports a 350 lb frame. ;) He must be strong as an ox. (Anyone not consider Walter Sobchak from The Big Lebowski to be his best role ever?)
Yep, a lesson on how NOT to screw your players for more money. I don't mind subscribing to the product lines, in fact I love that I am able to. I am NOT going to subscribe to website to have online access to the information in books that I already own.
A better example would be GURPS Character Assistant. Fully cusomizable for your huserules and homebrew stuff. (It's a little complicated, but GURPS is a complex system). It doesn't require a subscription, it's a onetime fee and updates are free.
I agree stand alone software is preferred versus web subscription, and I would still be playing GUPRS if the character assistant was a little easier to use. I just see the character assistant concept (software) as necessary, especially with netbooks/laptops being more affordable.
Congratulations on your current success Pathfinder!
Yep, a lesson on how NOT to screw your players for more money. I don't mind subscribing to the product lines, in fact I love that I am able to. I am NOT going to subscribe to website to have online access to the information in books that I already own.
A better example would be GURPS Character Assistant. Fully cusomizable for your huserules and homebrew stuff. (It's a little complicated, but GURPS is a complex system). It doesn't require a subscription, it's a onetime fee and updates are free.
I agree stand alone software is preferred versus web subscription, and I would still be playing GUPRS if the character assistant was a little easier to use. I just see the character assistant concept (software) as necessary, especially with netbooks/laptops being more affordable.
Congratulations on your current success Pathfinder!
The downside to the character builder tool is that it runs on Java 6.0, and so is not compatible with Mac OS X yet.
I think it will be a lifetime before WotC builds a virtual tabletop that beats Maptool in functionality. They seem to be bogged down in adding features I don't want (like SFX), when they are making progress at all. But you know what? I am quite happy with maptool, and it is free.
As opposed to no online access to the information etc. Plus, it's not as though SJ Games isn't interested in selling you a magazine subscription as well; they just don't throw in the character builder with the sub.
Between the PRD, being able to buy PDFs, and then access them from any computer with my account, I think Paizo's policy is the superior one.
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CEO
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I think Pathfinder can learn a lesson from Wizards and DDI, and license a solid character generator. I am not sure how that hits the bottom line in regards to selling hardcopy rule books, but it is the last remaining piece for me to decide to play any roleplaying games.
The good folks at Lone Wolf Development have a Pathfinder enabled character generator that is pretty amazing called Hero Lab. We will be working closely with them to make it even better. We are also talking with d20 Pro and Fantasy Grounds about Pathfinderizing their various digital tabletops. Lots of cool stuff, if only I had a couple of clones to get it all done! :)
-Lisa
I think Pathfinder can learn a lesson from Wizards and DDI, and license a solid character generator. I am not sure how that hits the bottom line in regards to selling hardcopy rule books, but it is the last remaining piece for me to decide to play any roleplaying games.
IMHO, Hero Lab has that covered pretty well. At least enough to make Paizo expending their precious time to make something similar almost redundant.
And it seems to easily handle house-rules.
Edit: Blast, ninja'd by Lisa... ;)
Yep, a lesson on how NOT to screw your players for more money. I don't mind subscribing to the product lines, in fact I love that I am able to. I am NOT going to subscribe to website to have online access to the information in books that I already own.As opposed to no online access to the information etc. Plus, it's not as though SJ Games isn't interested in selling you a magazine subscription as well; they just don't throw in the character builder with the sub.
I have no clue what you are talking about. Sure SJG has a magazine they would like you to subscribe to, but you are not required to do so to get the GCA program. and you do not get a free copy if you do subscribe. The GCA Tool is available as a Stand Alone product for $15.00
I think Pathfinder can learn a lesson from Wizards and DDI, and license a solid character generator. I am not sure how that hits the bottom line in regards to selling hardcopy rule books, but it is the last remaining piece for me to decide to play any roleplaying games.The good folks at Lone Wolf Development have a Pathfinder enabled character generator that is pretty amazing called Hero Lab. We will be working closely with them to make it even better. We are also talking with d20 Pro and Fantasy Grounds about Pathfinderizing their various digital tabletops. Lots of cool stuff, if only I had a couple of clones to get it all done! :)
-Lisa
I've been debating about getting Hero Lab. Really can't ask for a better plug than one from The Boss herself. I'll look a bit closer at it now. ;-)
I have no clue what you are talking about. Sure SJG has a magazine they would like you to subscribe to, but you are not required to do so to get the GCA program. and you do not get a free copy if you do subscribe. The GCA Tool is available as a Stand Alone product for $15.00That's my point. SJG sells you the builder, WotC gives it away with the Dragon/Dungeon expansion. OMG SJG is screwing players for more money!
Except, not.
Yes, not. I've had GCA for a year. and paid a whopping 15 bucks for it. What's the going rate for a year sub to ddi? And once you cancel do you still have access to the character builder.
Who's screwing who?
When you read the original article and put the Pathfinder bit into context, it's the worst kind of 'journalism': extremely prejudicial and worded in a way to slight Paizo of all of their accomplishments without being guilty of libel.
Can you say 'backhanded compliment'?
I abandoned RPG.NET a LONG time ago. They are like the Fox News of rpg sites. Claim to be unbiased but aren't. I find their site almost completely irrelevant to real life gaming.Same, I found some of their stuff to also be misleading because of the bias slants I've saw on there.
Bear in mind that this isn't a phenomenon unique to RPG.net, or to Pathfinder. If you avoid internet forums because of a bias for or against a certain game, it's a wonder you've found anywhere to call your home.
I abandoned RPG.NET a LONG time ago. They are like the Fox News of rpg sites. Claim to be unbiased but aren't. I find their site almost completely irrelevant to real life gaming.
And fractured industry? Anyone remember playing in the 80s-90s? D&D, Shadowrun, Hero, GURPS, Cyberpunk, Twilight 2000, Vampire, Star Wars, Traveller, heck every single game we played had different rules. But we still played several different games. Anyone remember Creature Feature? lol I LOVED that one! lol
I don't think a fractured industry would hurt any. In fact might bring about some new ideas... wow what a concept!
Plus Earthdawn is affordable in the US again! and in Print!
I like the explosion of non-d20 stuff!
~$70-ish. (About the same as a sub to Pyramid over the same period.) A single month's sub to DDI for $10 gets you access to the character builder forever, plus an issue a piece of two PDF magazines. So if you want the builder only, the GURPS builder costs about $15 and comes with free updates, and the 4e builder costs about $10 and comes with two PDF magazines and a month's worth of updates.Yes, not. I've had GCA for a year. and paid a whopping 15 bucks for it. What's the going rate for a year sub to ddi? And once you cancel do you still have access to the character builder.
And all previous months' updates, and the Monster Builder.
Yes, not. I've had GCA for a year. and paid a whopping 15 bucks for it. What's the going rate for a year sub to ddi? And once you cancel do you still have access to the character builder.
~$70-ish. (About the same as a sub to Pyramid over the same period.) A single month's sub to DDI for $10 gets you access to the character builder forever, plus an issue a piece of two PDF magazines. So if you want the builder only, the GURPS builder costs about $15 and comes with free updates, and the 4e builder costs about $10 and comes with two PDF magazines and a month's worth of updates.
I think that's a fair price for what you get, either way.
Sure, but when a new book comes out that has something you want to play you're gonna have to go resubscribe for at least another month if you want to add that class to your program, which at least doubles the cost. Not to mention the DDI exclusives that you can't play unless you buy access to them.
Me, I'll be sittin pretty with my $15 purchase, fully updated and including the houserule systems my GM has made for us until GURPS 5e comes out. (Oh yeah, hows the customization on that DDI Character builder? Can ya put your own races in it? Classes, feats, equipment, spells? If you can that changes things significantly, because you could technically update it yourself... which is why I'm betting you can't.)