Iron Mage, arcane warrior base class, draft six (playtesting)


Homebrew and House Rules

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Iron Mage

Role: Iron mages are warriors first and foremost, but they use magic to supplement their attacks and bolster defenses. Though individual specialties might vary, any iron mage is a stalwart ally in battle.

Starting Gold: As fighter (5d6x10).
Starting Age: As wizard.

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die / BAB: d10 / Full
Good Saves: Fortitude, Will

Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str)
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier

Spell progression as Paladin/Ranger.
1st: Arcane initiate, prestidigitation, school focus, witching 1
2nd: School power, warding 1
3rd: Arcane mark, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
4th: Arcane conversion, read magic, weapon component
5th: Warding 2, witching 2
6th: Spell fluency
7th: School power
8th: Warding 3
9th: Spell fluency
10th: Witching 3
11th: School power, warding 4
12th: Spell fluency
13th: Greater warding
14th: Warding 5
15th: Spell fluency, witching 4
16th: Greater witching
17th: Warding 6
18th: Spell fluency
19th: School power
20th: Warding 7, witching 5

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Iron mages are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields). An iron mage does not incur the normal arcane spell failure chance from wearing light or medium armor, or from wearing a shield. Like any other arcane spellcaster, an iron mage wearing heavy armor incurs a chance of spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass iron mage still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Arcane Initiate: Though they pursue highly specialized techniques which slow their mastery of spellcasting, iron mages study the same craft as wizards. An iron mage draws his spells from the sorcerer/wizard list and is considered to have full access to that list, granting him the ability to use spell completion and spell trigger items containing sorcerer/wizard spells of any level.

Prestidigitation (Sp): An iron mage with an Intelligence score of at least 10 can use prestidigitation, the neophyte wizard's practice spell, at will. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.

School Focus: Every iron mage selects a primary school of arcane magic from which he draws the majority of his power. He may choose Abjuration, Evocation, Necromancy or Transmutation, and gains the benefits of the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats when casting iron mage spells from that school. When casting a spell from his school of focus, an iron mage gains a +3 bonus to his caster level (effectively causing his caster level to become equal to his iron mage level for spells of that school). At 2nd, 7th and 11th and 19th levels the iron mage gains additional powers from his school of focus.

Witching (Su): An iron mage gains Arcane Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. Rather than being based on his caster level, the damage bonus granted by this feat is equal to his witching rank, initially 1 and increasing by 1 every 5 iron mage levels. He does not need to spend a swift action to activate Arcane Strike, instead gaining the benefit on every attack he makes.

An iron mage can imbue his weapons with more powerful magic a certain number of times each day by performing a witching attack. As a free action, he causes his weapons to gain an enhancement for one round. The effect of his witching attack is determined by his school of focus. At 1st level an iron mage can activate witching for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Intelligence modifier. At each level after 1st, he can perform witching attacks for 2 additional rounds. The total number of rounds of witching per day are renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Warding (Su): A 2nd level iron mage learns to weave magic into potent defenses. As long as he is conscious, he gains the rank 1 warding benefit from his school of focus. At 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, his warding improves by one rank.

Arcane Mark (Sp): A 3rd level iron mage with an Intelligence score of at least 10 can use arcane mark at will. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.

Craft Magic Arms and Armor: Iron mages gain Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a bonus feat at 3rd level, ignoring the normal caster level prerequisite. For the purpose of satisfying prerequisites when crafting enhancement bonuses to armor and weapons, iron mage level can be used in place of caster level.

Arcane conversion (Su): As a free action, an iron mage can sacrifice a memorized spell to perform a witching attack, adding the sacrificed spell's level to his witching rank for one round. Using this ability does not count against the iron mage's normal rounds per day of witching. The sacrificed spell is expended as if it had been cast normally.

Read magic (Sp): At 4th level, an iron mage with an Intelligence score of at least 10 can use read magic at will. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, an iron mage gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An iron mage must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

To learn, prepare or cast a spell, the iron mage must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an iron mage's spell is 10 + the spell level + the iron mage's Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, an iron mage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on (see Table: Paladin). In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score. When (see Table: Paladin) indicates that the iron mage gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence score for that spell level.

An iron mage may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the iron mage decides which spells to prepare.

Through 3rd level, an iron mage has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his iron mage level – 3.

Spellbooks: An iron mage must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook. A character with levels in both iron mage and wizard can use a single spellbook, and does not need to keep track of which class a recorded spell belongs to.

Upon gaining 4th level the iron mage obtains a spellbook containing one 1st level spell from his focus school, and an additional number of 1st level spells equal to his Intelligence bonus, which can be of any school. At each new iron mage level, he gains one new spell of any spell level that he can cast (based on his new iron mage level) for his spellbook. At any time, an iron mage can also add spells found in other spellbooks to his own.

Weapon Component: The iron mage carefully refines his martial techniques in tandem with spellcasting, working them into a single cohesive discipline. When wielding a melee weapon with which he is proficient, he gains the benefit of the Eschew Materials feat and can use the weapon in place of any non-costly focus component. Additionally, he can perform somatic components using the weapon as if it were a free hand.

Spell fluency: To more effectively utilize them in combat, an iron mage practices certain spells until casting them is second nature. At 6th level, he chooses one spell he knows. From that point on, he can prepare this spell without referring to a spellbook and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when casting it. When cast, this spell is treated as one level higher for all purposes. Finally, if he prepares it with metamagic other than Heighten Spell, the iron mage subtracts 1 from the final level of the spell slot required to cast the modified spell. (This benefit does not apply to metamagic which doesn't increase the spell's effective level.) He gains this benefit again at 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th levels.

Greater Warding (Su): A 13th level iron mage gains an additional benefit from his warding, as dictated by his school of focus.

Greater Witching (Su): At 16th level, if an iron mage activates his witching attack and uses the standard attack action, he performs a greater witching which causes additional effects depending on his school of focus.

Schools
Abjuration
Your specialize in hindering the enemy's offense, both magical and physical.
Witching: For one round, the target a suffers penalty equal to your witching rank to attack rolls, CMB, and the DC of any saving throws generated by its spells or abilities. Additionally, your weapons count as all alignments for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Greater Witching: A creature damaged by your attack finds itself pacified for one round. When so affected, it treats all other creatures as if they were protected by the sanctuary spell. The Will saving throw DC to overcome this protection is equal to 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier.
Warding: You gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to your warding rank.
Greater Warding: You gain spell resistance equal to your iron mage level + 12.
School powers:
- Dampening Field (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can emanate a 10-foot-radius zone of protective magic that lasts for 1 round. Choose acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic; all creatures in the area gain resist energy 5 against that energy type. For every 2 additional iron mage levels you gain, the amount resisted increases by 5. Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- Unfettered (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a swift action, you can touch a creature to bestow the benefits of the freedom of movement spell for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Greater Dispel Magic (Sp): You can use greater dispel magic as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 16. This is considered an abjuration spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor. You can use this ability twice per day at 15th level, and three times per day at 19th level.
- Prismatic Sphere (Sp): You can use prismatic sphere as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 19. This is considered an abjuration spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level and it gains a +2 bonus to its save DC from the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. (The total save DC is therefore 21 + your Intelligence modifier.) Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor.

Evocation
Yours is the magic of raw energy and destruction, but also of controlled force.
Witching: Your weapons deal an extra 1d4 force damage per witching rank, and are considered to have the ghost touch enhancement.
Greater Witching: A wave of force follows your weapon, brutally impacting against any creature struck. This attack gains double your normal bonus damage from witching and Arcane Strike, and grants you a free bull rush against the target with a circumstance bonus equal to your witching rank. If your bull rush is successful the target flies away from you and falls prone. Unlike a normal bull rush, you cannot follow your target. The target moves the full distance indicated by your bull rush result unless an obstacle prevents it, in which case it falls in the nearest square adjacent to that obstacle, and both your target and the obstacle take 1d6 points of damage.
Warding: A floating disk of force grants you a shield bonus to AC equal to your warding rank. This force shield also blocks all damage from magic missiles.
Greater Warding: Whenever you take damage from a physical attack, the impact triggers a burst of force which streaks back to the attacker, dealing 1d4 damage per warding rank.
School powers:
- Force Bolt (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can unleash a force bolt that automatically strikes a foe within 120 feet. The force bolt deals damage equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. Any effect which absorbs or prevents damage from magic missile also affects the force bolt. Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- Spell channeling (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a move action, you can imbue a weapon you are wielding with any evocation spell you have prepared which does not have a costly material or focus component. The spell is expended as if cast. The next successful attack made with that weapon delivers the spell's effects to the creature struck, allowing no saving throw or spell resistance. Regardless of the spell's normal targets or area of effect, only the creature or object struck is affected. If there is no meaningful way for the spell to affect the target, it is harmlessly discharged. If a successful attack is not made with that weapon within a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level, the imbued spell is lost. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Forceful Hand (Sp): You can use forceful hand as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 16. This is considered an evocation spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor. You can use this ability twice per day at 15th level, and three times per day at 19th level.
- Meteor Swarm (Sp): You can use meteor swarm as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 19. This is considered an evocation spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level and it gains a +2 bonus to its save DC from the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. (The total save DC is therefore 21 + your Intelligence modifier.) Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor.

Necromancy
You weave dire curses to confound your foes, and fortify your own body with negative energy.
Witching: For one round, the target suffers a penalty equal to your witching rank to AC, CMD and saving throws. Additionally, your weapons count as piercing, slashing and bludgeoning for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Greater Witching: A creature damaged by your attack suffers a severe curse of unluck for one round. Any time the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result.
Warding: You gain DR X/—, where X is your warding rank.
Greater Warding: As a free action, you can radiate an aura of necromantic energy which causes all creatures within 30 feet to become shaken for one round unless they succeed on a Will saving throw with a DC equal to 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier. You can exclude a number of creatures equal to your warding rank from this effect, and you are immune to your own fear aura.
School powers:
- Stifling Touch (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can attempt a melee touch attack which causes the target to become fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- False Flesh (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as an immediate action, you can gain temporary hit points equal to twice your iron mage level. This ability can be activated in time to absorb the damage from an incoming attack or spell. These temporary hit points vanish at the beginning of your next turn. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Eyebite (Sp): You can use eyebite as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 16. This is considered a necromancy spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level and it gains a +2 bonus to its save DC from the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. (The total save DC is therefore 18 + your Intelligence modifier.) Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor. You can use this ability twice per day at 15th level, and three times per day at 19th level.
- Energy Drain (Sp): You can use energy drain as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 19. This is considered a necromancy spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level and it gains a +2 bonus to its save DC from the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. (The total save DC is therefore 21 + your Intelligence modifier.) Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor.

Transmutation
Your subtle art manipulates time and matter, providing tactical advantages.
Witching: For one round, the target suffers a penalty to all of its movement speeds equal to 10 feet per witching rank. This penalty cannot reduce a creature's movement to less than 5 feet. Additionally, you gain a bonus to attack rolls equal to your witching rank, and your weapons overcome any damage reduction which would be overcome by special materials (such as cold iron, silver or adamantine).
Greater Witching: On a successful hit, you cause the target to become slowed for one round (as the slow spell). This effect is applied after the speed reduction from your witching effect, and can reduce a creature's movement speed to 0.
Warding: You gain an enhancement bonus to natural armor equal to your warding rank.
Greater Warding: Your natural reach increases by 5 feet and you cannot be flanked.
School powers:
- Expedience (Su): At 2nd level, as a swift action, you can increase all of your movement speeds by 5 feet per 2 iron mage levels you possess. This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus, and lasts for 1 round. Using this ability counts as using 1 round of witching.
- Distortion (Su): Beginning at 7th level, once per day as a move action, you can change the size of yourself or one creature within 30 feet of you, increasing or decreasing it by one size category. This effect last for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. An unwilling creature is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw, DC = 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier. Except as noted above, this ability is equivalent to enlarge person or reduce person and does not stack with similar effects. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Disintegrate (Sp): You can use disintegrate as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 16. This is considered a transmutation spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level and it gains a +2 bonus to its save DC from the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. (The total save DC is therefore 18 + your Intelligence modifier.) Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor. You can use this ability twice per day at 15th level, and three times per day at 19th level.
- Etherealness (Sp): You can use etherealness as a spell-like ability once per day at 19th level, so long as you have an Intelligence score of at least 19. This is considered a transmutation spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and you suffer a chance of failure if you attempt to use this ability while wearing heavy armor.


I would really like to help you with this, but I believe it beyond my current capabilities.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The main help I need is playtesting. Try it out and tell me if it's fun. :)

I'm especially curious whether anyone is willing to try an abjurer. I think their witching is strong enough mechanically, but they're not going to be heavy hitters. Best possible flanking partner for a rogue, though. Alternately, Rapid Shot could be a good tactic to debilitate as many enemies as possible. Or a reach weapon to combine some of the benefits of both...

Scarab Sages

I should be able to do some testing on this the weekend of the 16th-17th.

I think it looks fun and very well written.

Will there be other Schools?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

No other schools, for a few different reasons. One is that I've got a nice spread right now with the warding effect types, and what sorts of DR the witchings overcome; why throw off the balance?

Another is that I want this class to fit among the core classes, not stand in front of them. Mixing divination, enchantment and illusion with a combat-capable character is covered quite nicely by the bard, and the APG has been promised to give them more solid tools for fighting.

I considered conjuration, but the three primary themes there are summoning (no good without 9 levels), creating mundane objects (more a wizard/cleric thing), and overcoming spell resistance (a little too good for a half-caster). I decided to leave conjuration as the full caster's sacred cow. The APG summoner preview showed up shortly after I made that decision, and pretty much set it in stone.

One minor class adjustment: Add "weapon damage rolls" to the list of things penalized by abjuration's witching effect.

One thing I'm slightly wary of... I finally found the rule on when a 1-round effect ends, and it turns out a necromancer without multiple attacks in a round can't benefit from his own witching. How much of a problem is this? Is it something people don't mind, or should I add text along the lines of, "You benefit from this bonus with the first attack in your next round?"

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Teaser: Suneoalara.


I must say this is VERY well written. Will try it if I get the chance. Certainly flavorful

Cheers.


I'd prefer something akin to the spellsword prestige class
(complete warrior) converted into a full class.

it seems a good first draft though, the spell like abilities requiring too high intelligence scores and frankly very restrictive for a sub-optimal ability, since it is mainly a warrior.

Then again I think granting 9th level spell like abilities a bit over the top, leave those kind of magics to the real casters.

Hexblade might give a general layout for a build to cross-reference, it is a somewhat similar though a bit weak arcane / warrior caster with full BAB and paladin like spell progression, it might actually give you some ideas to add enchantmnet and illusion to the list.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Psst. You forgot the wizard spellcasting template text. You have "Though they pursue highly specialized techniques which slow their mastery of spellcasting, iron mages study the same craft as wizards" but no actual rules for learning or prepping spells.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

A Man In Black wrote:
Psst. You forgot the wizard spellcasting template text. You have "Though they pursue highly specialized techniques which slow their mastery of spellcasting, iron mages study the same craft as wizards" but no actual rules for learning or prepping spells.

...except for the "Spells" and "Spellbooks" entries, listed just after "Read Magic" and before "Weapon Component" (all four gained at 4th level).

S'okay, I should sleep more too. ;)

And c'm'on people, click the teaser link four posts up and butter my artist's ego! (She desperately needs the buttering. If you know what I mean.)

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

tejón wrote:
S'okay, I should sleep more too. ;)

D'oh.


tejón wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:

And c'm'on people, click the teaser link four posts up and butter my artist's ego! (She desperately needs the buttering. If you know what I mean.)

I had a look, good artwork. Interesting choice there with the trident. Would be awesome if there were some more water spells around that were useful.

I should be starting my game at the end of this month in which one of my players is playing a Necro Iron make. I'll let you know how it goes.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Okay, I'm definitely going to give Necromancy the benefit of its own witching on the following turn, provided the iron mage acts on the same initiative count.

The thing I'm still up in the air about is whether to give that benefit for the entire round, or only for the first attack of the round; and in the latter case, whether that attack must be taken before any move. Slightly cumbersome rules vs. conceptual cohesion. Grr!

Scarab Sages

The Base Witching ability caused some confusion for one of my players.
I ruled that there was essentially an Arcane Strike class feature, followed by a Witching class feature beginning at the second "An Iron mage" in subsection, with the previous bit having been the Arcane strike class feature is this your intention?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The virtual Arcane Strike operates independently of your witching rounds, but its benefit is based on your witching rank instead of your caster level. It's more class feature than feat, and I should probably change that text to something involving "...as if using the Arcane Strike feat," in a similar vein to the monk's flurry being based on two-weapon fighting but not letting you dual-wield shortswords; you're not intended to be able to use it with other classes' caster levels.

You're right on how it works, though.

Witching part 1: bonus damage on attacks and they count as magic weapons, all the time.

Witching part 2: bigger school-based effect, limited uses per day.

Scarab Sages

tejón wrote:


You're right on how it works, though.

Witching part 1: bonus damage on attacks and they count as magic weapons, all the time.

Witching part 2: bigger school-based effect, limited uses per day.

Suggest / Request that it be broken up for clarification.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

They were broken up originally. Merging them was to reduce confusion when Arcane Strike references your witching rank, which (if they're separate) isn't discussed until three abilities later.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. :) They're strongly linked, so I think a single entry with a paragraph break is the lesser evil.

Scarab Sages

Level 8 Playtest, just a few encounters from adventures I'd run previously. 25 point buy, 4 characters all Iron mages.

The Necromancer went sword and board. Used False Flesh and the Damage reduction to soak up the enemy attacks. Was really the rockstar of most of the encounters.

The Evoker wielded a polearm, and proved that close range combat worked fine with kicking (backed up by Witching was awesome) the few times people closed.

The Transmuter was a Bow Fighter, and doubled as the party's scout, using the enhanced mobility to move run away and lure enemies into traps.

The Abjurerer was a Bow fighter, moved up to the Evoker to use damping field a few times. Had the most complaints about their abilities not matching up to the rest of the party, the damping of the required numbers for enemies saving throws just wasn't visible enough to be satisfying.

Everyone complained that they didn't have acrobatics, but it really didn't penalize them.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

DivineAspect wrote:
25 point buy

What were the builds?

Quote:

The Necromancer...was really the rockstar of most of the encounters.

The Abjurerer...damping of the required numbers for enemies saving throws just wasn't visible enough to be satisfying.

Assuming the abjurer was witching whoever it was that was beating on the necromancer, the latter was getting an extra 2 points of damage reduction and getting hit less often. I wonder how much of Necro's apparent tanking prowess was due to that?

I know what you mean about the abjurer's effects being the least visible, but the big question is whether they're still equally useful. I've commented before that I expect abjuration to be the least popular focus, but that's OK as long as it's good at what it's supposed to do. The necromancer can take a beating, but he can't help everyone else take a beating if the enemy decides to target the squishy folk. This party didn't have any particularly squishy folk, and I wonder if that throws the evaluations off slightly? I'd be curious to see what happens to a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard party if the fighter is replaced by an iron mage, testing each school separately.

You mentioned that Dampening Field saw some use, how effective was it?

Quote:
Everyone complained that they didn't have acrobatics, but it really didn't penalize them.

That's for consistency with the core rules. Fighters and rangers don't have it either. I'm not sure why (maybe because you can't tumble in medium armor?) but if it's not appropriate for them, it's definitely not appropriate for the iron mage.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

How does this look for handling the "one round duration" issue:

Necromancer's witching: Creatures damaged by your attacks suffer a penalty equal to your witching rank to AC, CMD and saving throws. This penalty takes effect immediately after your current turn ends, and lasts for one round. Additionally, your weapons count as piercing, slashing and bludgeoning for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

This way you're not screwed out of your own witching benefit when single-attacking or casting spells, and you don't get to double-dip if you make two consecutive full-round attacks, which was my main concern with making it last until the end of your next round. (I.e. on the first round you activate witching, hit with first attack, target's AC is lowered for the rest of the attacks; if it then lasts until the end of the next round, you get another full attack routine with the witching benefit even if you don't activate it again.)

Edit: It also eliminates any order-of-operations optimization with regards to attacks, Stifling Touch, and Greater Warding fear aura within a single round. Yeah, I like this much better.

Scarab Sages

tejón wrote:


What were the builds?

The basis was here

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tgHvAjsxOADonsG3OkZl9dw&output=h tml

Quote:


Assuming the abjurer was witching whoever it was that was beating on the necromancer, the latter was getting an extra 2 points of damage reduction and getting hit less often. I wonder how much of Necro's apparent tanking prowess was due to that?

Ah, I hadn't actually worked that In, as it's not in the base doc, maybe do a google doc version, want a copy of mine?

Quote:


I know what you mean about the abjurer's effects being the least visible, but the big question is whether they're still equally useful. I've commented before that I expect abjuration to be the least popular focus, but that's OK as long as it's good at what it's supposed to do. The necromancer can take a beating, but he can't help everyone else take a beating if the enemy decides to target the squishy folk. This party didn't have any particularly squishy folk, and I wonder if that throws the evaluations off slightly? I'd be curious to see what happens to a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard party if the fighter is replaced by an iron mage, testing each school separately.

You mentioned that Dampening Field saw some use, how effective was it?

The Damping field was why the Abjurer felt they could contribute, even if not so much on offence, it's a pretty nice power

Quote:


That's for consistency with the core rules. Fighters and rangers don't have it either. I'm not sure why (maybe because you can't tumble in medium armor?) but if it's not appropriate for them, it's definitely not appropriate for the iron mage.

There were also several requests for the Fly Skill.

I started working on Conjurors, Diviners, and Illusionist options for the Iron Mage as well, as the lack of options seemed to be the largest complaint.

There was also a request for a midlevel ability to add weapon and armor enhancements to their armor or weapons

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

DivineAspect wrote:
There were also several requests for the Fly Skill.

Same reasoning - only full casters have that. Not even bards!

Quote:
I started working on Conjurors, Diviners, and Illusionist options for the Iron Mage as well, as the lack of options seemed to be the largest complaint.

For reasons detailed earlier in the thread, those are omitted by deliberate design. (Besides, the class already has more options than a paladin.) In general I don't mind people riffing on my work, but this one is intended as the basis for a published product, so until I've got it finalized and properly released I'd like to request that any "unofficial expansions" stay completely private. (After it's out, feel free. I just don't want multiple online versions producing confused expectations about the published version.)

Quote:
There was also a request for a midlevel ability to add weapon and armor enhancements to their armor or weapons

Err... check level 3? :)


I really like this class, and can tell you've got a good eye for scaling effects - I'm inclined to get your opinion on some classes that I'm working on :)

Observations:

-You generally ride the power curve a little high. The combined offensive and defense abilities definitely outstrip fighters, and give paladins a good run for their money, especially since they apply to all types of foes.

-While I understand the need to liven up the early progression with generic class abilities, I'm not sure they all need to be there. Loading all the cantrips at level 1 would be inconsequential to power level, and clean up the abilities list a bit.

-There is some unfortunate tension around intelligence scores for the class, since aside from the high-level spell-like abilities, there is no pressing reason to have an int. above 14 (except for save DCs and bonus spells, of course). Many characters are going to strongly debate whether it's really worth trying to keep up their intelligence scores, or if the 1~3 extra spells and spell-likes per day just aren't worth the investment.

-I like Craft Magic Arms and Armor as an answer to the wizard's free Scribe Scroll.

-Witching and Warding are elegant abilities, and as a general rule I like your implementation of both them and their greater versions.

-If multiple witching hits stack (as they would seem to) two weapon fighting becomes a pretty obvious choice for every school of focus. Even without TWF, this may make some of them too powerful - especially necromancy and abjuration, who could expect to easily inflict 3 or 4 witchings' worth of penalties on an opponent each round.

-I would definitely play the abjurer, so I'd say the power level for that one is pretty well-balanced against the others.

-You could probably simplify Dampening Field to Resist Energy's progression: 10 to start, 20 at level 7, 30 at level 11. And then complete immunity at level 15, since 40+ energy resistance may as well be immunity anyhow.

-Evocation's greater warding is a bit ridiculous. Walk into a fight, do nothing but chug potions, and let everyone kill themselves on your Magic Missile damage shield.

-Necromancy's greater warding is cumbersome, since it's typical use requires a will save from every foe every round. More elegant option would be to give them a fear aura or frightful presence.

-Transmutation's focus on slowing opponents is a bit random, and seems irrelevant for a melee character. On an archer it's excellent, but other transmutation abilities suggest this is not their intended focus - thinking specifically of their greater warding abilities, both of which scream for melee use. I'm not sure what other sort of range-neutral transmutation effect you could use, except perhaps very brief ability score modifications - but of course, that would lead to a lot of messy bookkeeping as strength and dex scores jumped up and down each round of combat.

-Transmutation's greater witching should probably specify that the Slow effect gets no save (as I assume it does not).

-Transmuter's Distortion ability should probably be a bit clearer that you can target any creature with the enlarge/reduce effect - It's implied but not made completely explicit.

-For a capstone Transmutation spell, Etherealness 1/day is pretty weak. Was there a reason you didn't give them Shapechange except for the expensive focus?

tejón wrote:
For reasons detailed earlier in the thread, those are omitted by deliberate design. (Besides, the class already has more options than a paladin.) In general I don't mind people riffing on my work, but this one is intended as the basis for a published product, so until I've got it finalized and properly released I'd like to request that any "unofficial expansions" stay completely private. (After it's out, feel free. I just don't want multiple online versions producing confused expectations about the published version.)

I'm curious, what product would that be?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Woot, extensive commentary. :D Thanks!

Addressing a few points:

Maeloke wrote:
-You generally ride the power curve a little high. The combined offensive and defense abilities definitely outstrip fighters, and give paladins a good run for their money, especially since they apply to all types of foes.

Believe it or not, this isn't true. I was very careful about that. Fighters will pretty much always be better at either damage or AC, and depending on the build, are likely to be better at both. The iron mage is generally ahead of a non-smiting paladin, but behind a fighter or a smiting paladin.

Quote:
Many characters are going to strongly debate whether it's really worth trying to keep up their intelligence scores, or if the 1~3 extra spells and spell-likes per day just aren't worth the investment.

I know. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. :)

Quote:
-If multiple witching hits stack (as they would seem to)

Magical effects from the same source never stack. I'm aware that some people may be confused about that, but it's pretty central to the rules. Since this is intended for print, word count is a consideration and I'm not going to clarify things that don't actually need it. Same answer regarding transmutation's distortion and slow effects; people might be confused, but in this case it's not my fault. :)

Quote:
-Evocation's greater warding is a bit ridiculous. Walk into a fight, do nothing but chug potions, and let everyone kill themselves on your Magic Missile damage shield.

This comes up with almost every revision, hehe. That ability looks far better than it is. It's not nearly as much damage as it sounds like; at 20th level, 7d4 is an average of 17.5 returned per hit. Far less than any CR20 opponent is dealing to you with the attacks that trigger it! If you're melee and they're ranged, I guarantee you go down first. If they're casting spells, it's ineffective. Finally, unless you're fighting something mindless, chances are good they'll look for a less prickly target -- that's why this is a part of the warding chain, it's likely more of a deterrant from attacking you than a source of damage. And to cap things off, consider that fire shield does more!

Quote:
-Necromancy's greater warding is cumbersome, since it's typical use requires a will save from every foe every round. More elegant option would be to give them a fear aura or frightful presence.

Yeah, this is slightly annoying to me too. It basically is a fear aura already, by PF rules. Frightful Presence would be less cumbersome on a round-by-round basis, but there are several things about it that I don't like thematically. I'll have to fiddle with it some more.

Quote:
-Transmutation's focus on slowing opponents is a bit random, and seems irrelevant for a melee character.

It prevents the enemy from escaping if you're winning, or chasing if you're losing. And when you gain inherent reach at level 13, you can play a rather brutal game of keep-away with anything you can reduce to 5' movement.

Quote:
-For a capstone Transmutation spell, Etherealness 1/day is pretty weak. Was there a reason you didn't give them Shapechange except for the expensive focus?

The expensive focus is the main reason. Also it's stupidly good. :) Transmutation is pretty solid, and I threw it a bone at 11th with Disintegrate. It's the "utility grab bag" school, and while Etherealness might not be the most spectacular effect among them, it can benefit the entire party in a number of ways.

Quote:
I'm curious, what product would that be?

It'll present the class, four iconics (one for each school), suggestions for introduction to a campaign, possibly some related adventure hooks, designer notes (along the lines of the rest of this post), and whatever else seems appropriate. And good art. :) I was originally thinking it would be PDF-only, but the class itself is about seven pages, and if the art and other-stuff brings it over ~24, a print version might be worth doing.

Based on conversations in another thread, I've changed Plan A from completely self-publishing to setting up an imprint under another publisher. ("Dire Badger Press," now nobody steal that!) Beyond this, I've got one major project that a few here might know about, but which is primarily under wraps -- and on hold at the moment, between this and Superstar. But depending on how things work out, I'm considering ways to use the imprint to help others publish their work. Sort of a seal-of-approval thing; I'd be very picky about the quality of what I print, but not about where it came from. There are a lot of people who do this very well, but only as a hobby because they've got day jobs and don't want to be constrained by someone else's product lines and publication deadlines; if possible, I'd like to set up a unified outlet for those folk. The imprint would then be more of a "seal of approval" than a structured product group.

One thing at a time, of course. My first product's not even done yet. :)


tejón wrote:
It'll present the class, four iconics (one for each school), suggestions for introduction to a campaign, possibly some related adventure hooks, designer notes (along the lines of the rest of this post), and whatever else seems appropriate. And good art. :) I was originally thinking it would be PDF-only, but the class itself is about seven pages, and if the art and other-stuff brings it over ~24, a print version might be worth doing.

A print version? Count me in for several copies of that. I love the feel of paper between my fingers much beyond that of a keyboard under them. ;)

The Exchange

I found the Iron Mage at draft 5 and now that it's at draft 6, I only have a small question regarding Witching.

The Witching ability , I feel is a bit overpowered, not allowing a saving throw to NOT be affected by it. Is this on purpose or is it a DM call?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

theMexican wrote:
The Witching ability , I feel is a bit overpowered, not allowing a saving throw to NOT be affected by it. Is this on purpose or is it a DM call?

You have to hit them! My first two playtesting sessions running a transmutation iron mage in a friend's campaign, I was utterly frustrated because I didn't get my witching on a target even once... a saving throw would be two chances to fail. Touch-range spells almost never have a saving throw, and they're touch attacks, and you get to try again if you miss. This is against full AC and is round-based, completely wasted if you don't connect. And it's not a handy but secondary trick like stunning fist, it's the class's primary signature ability. It needs to match up with the likes of barbarian rage and bardic performance!


tejón wrote:
Believe it or not, this isn't true. I was very careful about that. Fighters will pretty much always be better at either damage or AC, and depending on the build, are likely to be better at both. The iron mage is generally ahead of a non-smiting paladin, but behind a fighter or a smiting paladin.

Huh. I'll have to push the numbers a bit more carefully. I was looking at the evocation set in particular, figuring the warding roughly approximated a shield. Such an IM has no reason *not* to use two weapons or a two-hander, and in lieu of a fighter's weapon training and specialization capping out at +4 hit/+8 damage (or realistically, -2/+20 or 26 with power attack), he'd be loading 5d4+5 damage on top of every hit (avg. 17.5). That's awfully close to the power attacking TWF fighter, and the IM has 5-7 extra shield AC to keep him safe.

And then, of course, this same IM has 4 levels of spells to throw in and push him over the top, either through channeling, burning them to increase witching level, or just straight buffs.

Anyhow, it's not strictly incorrect to push them like that, I'm just observing these guys have a *lot* going for them.

tejón wrote:
I know. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. :)

Aside from improved witchings and wardings, those high level spell-likes are the *only* things for iron magi to look forward to. I'd feel bad making their only target abilities such annoying ones to have to acquire.

I mean, I know we all expect characters to be stocked with appropriate headbands of x, but those capstones just come out of the blue. That an average IM without magical equipment is actually incapable of using a core class ability tells me they need some adjustment.

It could be as simple as rewording them to say "The Iron Mage may add a single <evocation/transmutation/whatever> spell of up to 9th level to his list of spells known. He treats this spell as a 4th level spell for the purposes of memorization and save DCs, and may prepare it along with the rest of his spells".

tejón wrote:
Magical effects from the same source never stack. I'm aware that some people may be confused about that, but it's pretty central to the rules. Since this is intended for print, word count is a consideration and I'm not going to clarify things that don't actually need it. Same answer regarding transmutation's distortion and slow effects; people might be confused, but in this case it's not my fault. :)

To be precise, multiple effects of the same type don't stack. Many bonuses (fighter weapon training, smite) and the vast majority of penalties (all your witchings) are untyped, however, so you really need to be more explicit. Ray of Enfeeblement is a good example to check.

Note: this is why paladin multi-smite is both possible and broken.

tejón wrote:
This comes up with almost every revision, hehe. That ability looks far better than it is. It's not nearly as much damage as it sounds like; at 20th level, 7d4 is an average of 17.5 returned per hit. Far less than any CR20 opponent is dealing to you with the attacks that trigger it! If you're melee and they're ranged, I guarantee you go down first. If they're casting spells, it's ineffective. Finally, unless you're fighting something mindless, chances are good they'll look for a less prickly target -- that's why this is a part of the warding chain, it's likely more of a deterrant from attacking you than a source of damage. And to cap things off, consider that fire shield does more!

Man, I still feel sorry for that dragon that goes in for a full Bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail slap and comes away with upwards of 100 damage.

Dragons aside, there are just a whole lot of creatures that have no recourse but to use weapon attacks, and this warding devastates them more than I think you're addressing. Suppose one of these guys and a fighter get into a duel? Fighter is unequivocally SOL; he has no way to damage IM without taking nearly as much back. This holds true for rangers, barbarians, paladins... pretty much every non-caster class.

I feel especially bad for ranged attackers, because there's no way the average bow can keep up with rapid-fire magic missiles like Mr. Iron Evoker spits out without lifting a finger. I have this mental image of a guy walking into a coliseum, getting shot at by a small army of goblins, and insta-killing every one that gets lucky enough to hit.

It's interesting you should mention fire shield, because this guy could totally double up for extra-nasty damage shield action.

I just really think you should consider cutting down the damage a bit, to something painful but not crippling - perhaps mimic the fire shield for d6 + 1 per warding level, or something like that.

tejón wrote:
It prevents the enemy from escaping if you're winning, or chasing if you're losing. And when you gain inherent reach at level 13, you can play a rather brutal game of keep-away with anything you can reduce to 5' movement.

Hmm... okay, I guess I buy it. It just ends up being a more tactical school than the others. One could still wish there was a bit more synergy between the witching and greater warding, other than the very specific slow+reach tactic. That might be greedy though, I dunno.

tejón wrote:
Based on conversations in another thread, I've changed Plan A from completely self-publishing to setting up an imprint under another publisher. ("Dire Badger Press," now nobody steal that!) Beyond this, I've got one major project that a few here might know about, but which is primarily under wraps -- and on hold at the moment, between this and Superstar. But depending on how things work out, I'm considering ways to use the imprint to help others publish their work. Sort of a seal-of-approval thing; I'd be very picky about the quality of what I print, but not about where it came from. There are a lot of people who do this very well, but only as a hobby because they've got day jobs and don't want to be constrained by someone else's product lines and publication deadlines; if possible, I'd like to set up a unified outlet for those folk. The imprint would then be more of a "seal of approval" than a structured product group.

Sounds like a good time! Despite perhaps coming across as argumentative here, I really like your work and would be interested in joining in for this type of project. I have the coolest class (note: irony!) that I'll be putting up in a couple days, and it might want for some more formal treatment than a message board post.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Maeloke wrote:
Despite perhaps coming across as argumentative here...

No worries on that front. I appreciate candid discourse, and being forced to explain myself helps me verify that I've covered all the bases. Speaking of which!

Quote:
I was looking at the evocation set in particular, figuring the warding roughly approximated a shield. Such an IM has no reason *not* to use two weapons or a two-hander, and in lieu of a fighter's weapon training and specialization capping out at +4 hit/+8 damage (or realistically, -2/+20 or 26 with power attack), he'd be loading 5d4+5 damage on top of every hit (avg. 17.5). That's awfully close to the power attacking TWF fighter, and the IM has 5-7 extra shield AC to keep him safe.

+5 to hit after greater focus, making it -1/+20 vs. +0/+17.5. Iron mage either dumped casting and has crap Int (so he's got no other tricks, and this is fair), or is behind at least +1 Strength mod. The latter case puts it at -1/+20 vs. -1/+16.5. Since we're talking about 20th level, the fighter plays stupidly amazing critical tricks and blows the iron mage out of the water. One level previous, IM loses 2.5 damage and fighter loses only the capstone which took him from "slightly better" to "no contest."

Evocation's warding is awesome in that it's a shield bonus which leaves your hands free, but unlike abjuration and transmutation, it doesn't scale past the normal potential for its bonus type. Fighter gets +1 net AC from full plate vs. breastplate, and can almost certainly afford the extra Dex to take advantage of his armor training, giving him an extra 5 AC total, putting him behind the evoker by 2 points... 1 point with two-weapon defense. But now the fighter has the option to put on a shield (and remain effective at TWF!) and if he does that, he can take Shield Focus and beat the evoker by 6 AC. And he's got DR 5/-, just for kicks.

Fighters are seriously better than they look. :)

Oh, and since you posted the numbers yourself: power attacking fighter has +20 damage, inherently, at level 20. Somewhere significantly over +30 after Strength and weapon enhancement. In fact, not power attacking, he should have no less than +20 in flat modifiers. Probably some energy dice on the weapon. Probably enlarged. And see above re: stupid critical tricks. I'll admit that I haven't put together this particular arena match, but I sincerely doubt he'll kill himself on warding faster than he kills the evoker. If someone wants to set up that test (like that balor vs. fighter thread a while back) I'd be happy to see how it turns out. It would be easy enough to just drop the damage to 1 point per warding rank. I'd need to be convinced it's necessary, is all.

You're right that doubling it up with fire shield is a special kind of mean, but dispels are common as dirt by the time it becomes a concern. For that matter, so is fire resistance.


*laugh* okay, clearly you've munchkin'd fighters much more extensively than I have. I left off factoring in ability scores and enhancement bonuses 'cause those are class-neutral, but totally forgot armor training and improved spec. Fighters are my favorite power level straw man, but I can't stand playing them when there are so many delightful classes with spell lists or sneak attacks.

If someone else organizes the cage match, I'd still bet on the evoker iron mage schooling the fighter, though. Spell power!

I had a thought for the necromancy greater warding. Since you're okay with wardings being triggered by blows, how about: Striking the IM causes the attacker to become shaken for 1d4 rounds. Creatures with HD less than half the IM's level become frightened instead.

Is that about the right sort of effect? Necromancer's already disposed to take more hits than the average IM...

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Maeloke wrote:
I had a thought for the necromancy greater warding. Since you're okay with wardings being triggered by blows, how about: Striking the IM causes the attacker to become shaken for 1d4 rounds. Creatures with HD less than half the IM's level become frightened instead.

Mechanically that's sound and a pretty good idea, but I'm not sure how it works flavor-wise. Necromantic aura that has to be touched to take effect? Kind of funky. And is there any effect on non-melee?

I'll be frank: I loathe random durations. Regular durations are annoying enough to keep track of, and random durations (especially on an per-target basis) are yet another number on my index card. I'd rather do the saving throws!

I'm still torn on whether it needs fixing at all. "Everyone saves every round" effects are surprisingly common. Gaze attacks are a start, and many fear auras work exactly like the necromancer's. It's a standard mechanic. Normally it's not in play every fight, though... hard call without real play-session reports at that level yet.

I see three reasonable options to tweak the current version (rather than changing the whole mechanic). The first is to remove the ability to exclude anyone from the effect: then you don't want to use it every round unless your party's got killer Will saves. The second is to give it a significant duration and a matching "recharge" time. The third is to make a successful save protect you for 24 hours, per Frightful Presence.

#1 will annoy players and frequently cause the ability to go unused. #2 is just a different sort of bookkeeping. 3 will probably make it too weak unless it's 3+2... and then it's bookkeeping again.

(I do think I'll toss in a "creatures with half your hit dice" clause, though. Frightened on a failed save, shaken no matter what.)


tejón wrote:

Mechanically that's sound and a pretty good idea, but I'm not sure how it works flavor-wise. Necromantic aura that has to be touched to take effect? Kind of funky. And is there any effect on non-melee?

I'll be frank: I loathe random durations. Regular durations are annoying enough to keep track of, and random durations (especially on an per-target basis) are yet another number on my index card. I'd rather do the saving throws!

I'm still torn on whether it needs fixing at all. "Everyone saves every round" effects are surprisingly common. Gaze attacks are a start, and many fear auras work exactly like the necromancer's. It's a standard mechanic. Normally it's not in play every fight, though... hard call without real play-session reports at that level yet.

I see three reasonable options to tweak the current version (rather than changing the whole mechanic). The first is to remove the ability to exclude anyone from the effect: then you don't want to use it every round unless your party's got killer Will saves. The second is to give it a significant duration and a matching "recharge" time. The third is to make a successful save protect you for 24 hours, per Frightful Presence.

#1 will annoy players and frequently cause the ability to go unused. #2 is just a different sort of bookkeeping. 3 will probably make it too weak unless it's 3+2... and then it's bookkeeping again.

(I do think I'll toss in a "creatures with half your hit dice" clause, though. Frightened on a failed save, shaken no matter what.)

Ah, actually you lead me to something I neglected to completely clarify about the evoker: does that warding work on ranged attacks? I had been reading that it does, and meant for that to be the case with my proposed necromancer change.

As for flavor... yeah, it's a bit odd. At the same time, though, the necromancer's whole schtick seems to be about inviting people to hit him, then being creepily resilient. False Flesh sounds like he's whipping up movie special effect wounds when he gets hit, spurting blood and showing bone, then fighting on regardless. I'd be shaken.

I'm no fan of random durations either, just meant it to be a compromise to your standing '1 round of shaken' from the fear aura thing. One round of shaken after hitting you is obviously less than impressive.

As far as saves go, its definitely worth doing the work to avoid gaze syndrome. Gaze attacks make for good occasional combats because each roll is highly consequential (save or die, after all), but you don't want to be doing that for everyone, in every combat, over a significantly less dramatic debuff than Flesh to Stone.

Here's an option:

Necromancer's Greater warding:
Greater warding (Su): The iron mage gains an aura of fear which he can activate as a free action. All enemies within 30 feet of the iron mage must make a will save at DC 10 + 1/2 iron mage level + int modifier. If they fail, they are shaken for a number of rounds equal to the iron mage's warding.

Creatures with fewer than half the iron mage's HD are automatically shaken by the aura, and those that fail the save become frightened.

Once a creature succeeds on a save against the warding, they cannot suffer the results of a failed save against it for 24 hours (most creatures become immune; ones with less than half the iron mage's HD are always shaken, but cannot be frightened by it again for 24 hours).

One save per creature per combat (usually), always on, no melee requisite - does it fit the bill?


Maeloke wrote:
I feel especially bad for ranged attackers, because there's no way the average bow can keep up with rapid-fire magic missiles like Mr. Iron Evoker spits out without lifting a finger. I have this mental image of a guy walking into a coliseum, getting shot at by a small army of goblins, and insta-killing every one that gets lucky enough to hit.

You know, that's a pretty convincing argument in favor of the feature -- I mean, what an image -- a bunch of low-level mooks firing arrows at the Iron Evoker and wilting where they stand. ;)

However, I agree with you that this feature should be toned down a bit. It's fine for mooks to perish to it, but it seems a little rough on the higher level opponents, considering that the Iron Mage just needs to be hit by them and not do anything himself.

Would it be too complicated/unbalanced to say that it works like this:

Whenever you take damage from a physical attack, the impact triggers a burst of force which streaks back to the attacker, dealing 1d4 damage per warding rank. The attacker may make a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + warding rank (possibly + Iron Mage's Int modifier) for half damage (or no damage if the attacker has evasion).

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Maeloke wrote:
False Flesh sounds like he's whipping up movie special effect wounds when he gets hit, spurting blood and showing bone, then fighting on regardless. I'd be shaken.

I imagine it as a cancerous bloom of zombie flesh which absorbs the damage, then sloughs off. And yeah, ditto. :)

That's a pretty solid suggestion to clean up the fear aura. I'm considering dividing it into three hit die brackets - greater than, less than or equal, and less than half. But it'll probably look a lot like what you posted. (And I can't believe I didn't think of duration = warding rank on my own.) Thanks!

I really don't want to toss a saving throw on evocation's damage shield... that's potentially even more saves than the current draft's necromancer! I'm just going to do a mock-up fighter-evoker 15th level cage match, and see if that extra damage can (even arguably) swing the fight.

Scarab Sages

tejón wrote:
DivineAspect wrote:
There were also several requests for the Fly Skill.
Same reasoning - only full casters have that. Not even bards!

Ah, but Bards don't have the fly spell on their class list

Quote:

I started working on Conjurors, Diviners, and Illusionist options for the Iron Mage as well, as the lack of options seemed to be the largest complaint.

For reasons detailed earlier in the thread, those are omitted by deliberate design. (Besides, the class already has more options than a paladin.) In general I don't mind people riffing on my work, but this one is intended as the basis for a published product, so until I've got it finalized and properly released I'd like to request that any "unofficial expansions" stay completely private. (After it's out, feel free. I just don't want multiple online versions producing confused expectations about the published version.)

Um, The Paladin has the options on their mercies, which because you make more choices equals more options.

Ah, but it's not yet got as many options as a Wizard, which is what it's being compared to.

I will reply to your specific arguements above, in it's own reply.

Quote:
There was also a request for a midlevel ability to add weapon and armor enhancements to their armor or weapons
Err... check level 3? :)

Craft magic arms and armor isn't instant or adjustable, which is what the apparent desire was.

Scarab Sages

tejón wrote:
No other schools, for a few different reasons. One is that I've got a nice spread right now with the warding effect types, and what sorts of DR the witchings overcome; why throw off the balance?

Because that leaves a lot of variations which it is just not suited for. My playtesters saw it as a martial aspect of the wizard (what with the whole wizard spell list and spell books) and I agree.

Yes, it's more work, but it's the difference between a class which has a little niche for a specialist instead of being a multiclass character, to fullfilling a full role. Also it makes groups of the same class more viable, if they have a wide range of options, like Clerics, Sorcerors, and Wizards get. After all when you only get to make a class choice once, you want more options (as the Ranger's Dearth of Fighting Styles reveals).

tejón wrote:


Another is that I want this class to fit among the core classes, not stand in front of them. Mixing divination, enchantment and illusion with a combat-capable character is covered quite nicely by the bard, and the APG has been promised to give them more solid tools for fighting.

It's quite excellent at standing with them.

A Bard also has some really heavy attached baggage, and is unsuited for a frontline fighter's role.

tejón wrote:


I considered conjuration, but the three primary themes there are summoning (no good without 9 levels), creating mundane objects (more a wizard/cleric thing), and overcoming spell resistance (a little too good for a half-caster). I decided to leave conjuration as the full caster's sacred cow. The APG summoner preview showed up shortly after I made that decision, and pretty much set it in stone.

I considered a Conjurer as battlefield control, fog spells, black tentacles, teleportation of both allies and enemies. Roles unfilled by the Summoner. It works out fairly well, though still less popular then the Iron necromancer.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Cage match mocked up. I'll skip the details: consider me convinced. Evoker's greater warding will drop to 1 point of damage per rank, and it will still be good enough to matter.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I should probably whip out draft 7. Expect that in the hiatus between Superstar Round 2 submissions, and judging.


tejón wrote:
I should probably whip out draft 7. Expect that in the hiatus between Superstar Round 2 submissions, and judging.

Congratulations on making the first cut - good luck with the others :)


tejón wrote:
I should probably whip out draft 7. Expect that in the hiatus between Superstar Round 2 submissions, and judging.

Eagerly awaiting Draft 7, and congratulations! :)

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Draft 7 is up. Change notes:

  • The "unlike normal spell-like abilities..." text is now listed as a general rule for the class, under the Arcane Initiate ability, rather than being repeated 11 times.
  • "This is considered a <school> spell..." likewise rolled into the School Focus ability description, rather than repeated 8 times.
  • Fiddled with the Witching class feature description. Should be clear how it works, and more obvious why Arcane Strike isn't a separate ability. Also addressed stacking.
  • Warding and Greater Warding now have free action on/off switches rolled into the base abilities. Yes, I am aware that turning off spell resistance is normally a standard action, and this makes the abjurer's version slightly better than "natural" spell resistance!
  • Evocation's greater warding dropped to damage = rank, also counts as a magic missile for shielding purposes.
  • Necromancy's greater warding lasts for rounds = rank, stronger effect on weak creatures, one successful save lasts 24 hours.
  • Transmutation's greater warding slightly tweaked.

    DivineAspect - this class does fill a full role: front-line warrior. It does so using tricks stolen from the wizard's bag, and some unique hybrid techniques; but to pull a rabbit from A Man in Black's hat, in the Fighter / Thief / Cleric / Magic-User party, the iron mage replaces the fighter. I see how it can also look like a wizard replacement, but giving it the extra abilities and broader versatility needed to fulfill that expectation would make it far too good. It has just enough tricks up its sleeve to make the absence of a full wizard bearable, just as a party with a paladin can survive without a cleric; but as with that example, the two classes are not redundant and should not be.

    Maeloke - I understand your annoyance with the Int requirement on the 9th-level spell likes, but I see that as kind of a power check. If the iron mage could dump Intelligence and keep all of its abilities, balance points start shifting. Fighters no longer have an advantage in cohesive attribute requirements, which is something that the iron mage's school abilities explicitly assume. The fact is, just running from the elite array, you can drop the 8 in Intelligence and get access to your 4th-level spells with a headband. You won't have as many bonus spells and your saves won't be as high, but the class would still be quite effective... less versatile, but from a character optimization perspective, it might well be worth the trade. If you instead emphasize the wizardly side of the class, pumping Intelligence to 19 or 20, you're rewarded with a shiny toy on top of the spellcasting benefits. You probably gave up 20 hit points for it, so it's a really nice toy. But you have to give up those hit points!

  • Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Iron Mage, arcane warrior base class, draft six (playtesting) All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.
    Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules