The question was "Are you proud of your country?"
What a lousy question! Proud of what? Its history and culture? Its current foreign policy? Its economic state? Its "football" (aka soccer) team? The question itself brings us back to the whole "In Europe they have no freedom!" nonesense.
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The question was "Are you proud of your country?"What a lousy question! Proud of what? Its history and culture? Its current foreign policy? Its economic state? Its "football" (aka soccer) team? The question itself brings us back to the whole "In Europe they have no freedom!" nonesense.
Hey, I don't make the polls, I just report them.
A lot of people would disagree that there are in fact right and wrongs in the world and that this is inherent to all people.In most instances, right and wrong and good and evil can be morally relative.I always find it strange when people talk about moral relativism.
Anybody remember the case in Florida (I think) a couple of years back, where a young girl was kidnapped from her home, tortured, and then ultimately killed by being buried alive. If someone doesn't feel comfortable calling that Wrong or Evil (notice the capital letters), I find that a bit worrisome. I don't really care if someone can find some culture somewhere and when that would find that behavior acceptable, that doesn't make it not Wrong or Evil in my mind. Cultures can be wrong. Slavery in the US was still Wrong, even if it was acceptable at the time. Being socially acceptable and not being Wrong are not the same thing. Of course all of this is IMO.
Its perfectly conceivable that, in the future, they'll consider the slaughter of animals for food, especially in the rather disturbing way we do it in factory farms today, wrong and vile. So does that mean we ourselves are evil (we'll those of us not wegan anyway)? That said there are acts that nearly every society considers evil - I can't imagine any society at any point in history condoning your example.
Its perfectly conceivable that, in the future, they'll consider the slaughter of animals for food, especially in the rather disturbing way we do it in factory farms today, wrong and vile. So does that mean we ourselves are evil (we'll those of us not wegan anyway)? That said there are acts that nearly every society considers evil - I can't imagine any society at any point in history condoning your example.A lot of people would disagree that there are in fact right and wrongs in the world and that this is inherent to all people.In most instances, right and wrong and good and evil can be morally relative.I always find it strange when people talk about moral relativism.
Anybody remember the case in Florida (I think) a couple of years back, where a young girl was kidnapped from her home, tortured, and then ultimately killed by being buried alive. If someone doesn't feel comfortable calling that Wrong or Evil (notice the capital letters), I find that a bit worrisome. I don't really care if someone can find some culture somewhere and when that would find that behavior acceptable, that doesn't make it not Wrong or Evil in my mind. Cultures can be wrong. Slavery in the US was still Wrong, even if it was acceptable at the time. Being socially acceptable and not being Wrong are not the same thing. Of course all of this is IMO.
Possibly all of us that support the current livestock practices are in fact evil. Maybe we have just deluded ourselves to believe that we are really good people, but in fact many of us are evil bastards. Certainly there are a fair number of vegans/animal rights activitist that feel just such a thing. Are they wrong? Just because I personally don't know all of the absolute wrongs and rights or even if not everything is an absolute wrong or right, doesn't mean that there doesn't exist any absolute wrongs or rights at all.
All IMO of course.
The question was "Are you proud of your country?"Only 38% of Britons are proud of Britain, 12% of the French?. These numbers don't sound plausible...what exactly was the question?
In the poll, conducted in 2005 of 1000 citizens each of The United States, Italy, Canada, Great Britan, Germany, France and Japan, there were a number of questions asked. Two results really stood out to me. The first was that 75% of Americans said they were proud of their country. 54% of Canadians said the same thing, 38% of British, 22% of Italians, 19% of Germans, 14% of Japanese, and 12% of French citizens responded similarly. The other was that 84% of...
Must be some kind of confounding variable in the poll. The numbers simply defy reason. While its conceivable that the French and the Americans were answering the same words (in different languages obviously) its not conceivable that they were answering the same question.
I tried a Google search on 'Pew Research Poll+Are you proud of your Country?' and 'Poll+Are you proud of your Country?' but I can't find anything really like this at all. Closest I saw was a poll asking if they like where their country is headed...The Chinese really, really, like were they are going...everyone else not so much.
Just because I personally don't know all of the absolute wrongs and rights or even if not everything is an absolute wrong or right, doesn't mean that there doesn't exist any absolute wrongs or rights at all.
What's their foundation, then? A lot of people cite their interpretation of the Bible, or the Koran, or the Vedas, or whatever, but that leads into the whole "genocide = good" argument. Many people claim they "just know," but that includes people like Charlie Manson, so that "absolute basis" is out.
Personally, I look at net aggregate suffering, which at least provides something of a yardstick, but it also leads me to conclude that some of the above-defined "good" is in fact evil.
The question was "Are you proud of your country?"What a lousy question! Proud of what? Its history and culture? Its current foreign policy? Its economic state? Its "football" (aka soccer) team? The question itself brings us back to the whole "In Europe they have no freedom!" nonesense.
It sounds like the conservatives at work are driving you nuts again. ;)
It sounds like the conservatives at work are driving you nuts again. ;)
I wouldn't call them "conservatives." For the most part, conservatives are reasonable people.
"Homicide-crazy holy-rolling right-wing nutjobs," on the other hand...
Its perfectly conceivable that, in the future, they'll consider the slaughter of animals for food, especially in the rather disturbing way we do it in factory farms today, wrong and vile. So does that mean we ourselves are evil (we'll those of us not wegan anyway)?
An excellent example. Are people who eat at McDonalds evil? What about people who swat flies? What about people who kill another living being 'just because its icky' (like a spider/ant/grub/whatever)? People 500 years from now may view what we do every day as 'reprehensible' or 'morally wrong' which just goes to show that these things change over time and so therefore can not be absolute.
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Must be some kind of confounding variable in the poll. The numbers simply defy reason. While its conceivable that the French and the Americans were answering the same words (in different languages obviously) its not conceivable that they were answering the same question.The question was "Are you proud of your country?"Only 38% of Britons are proud of Britain, 12% of the French?. These numbers don't sound plausible...what exactly was the question?
In the poll, conducted in 2005 of 1000 citizens each of The United States, Italy, Canada, Great Britan, Germany, France and Japan, there were a number of questions asked. Two results really stood out to me. The first was that 75% of Americans said they were proud of their country. 54% of Canadians said the same thing, 38% of British, 22% of Italians, 19% of Germans, 14% of Japanese, and 12% of French citizens responded similarly. The other was that 84% of...
One thing to remember is that there are cultural differences as well. I have friends in both Italy and Germany who inform me that in those countries, overt displays of national pride are frowned upon because they remind people of the Great Unpleasentness of the 1930's and 1940's. One of my friends has a wife who is German and she was shocked the we Americans have the flag everywhere. According to her, that is not how Germans do things. So there may be some of that reflected in the results as well.
I always thought that our country's inherent reverence to our national flag was a bit over the top. If you want to salute the flag or say a prayer, that's fine and dandy. But don't force it on the rest of us and ostracize us if we choose not to do so.
I have a bit of an iconoclastic streak, so to speak.
Its perfectly conceivable that, in the future, they'll consider the slaughter of animals for food, especially in the rather disturbing way we do it in factory farms today, wrong and vile. So does that mean we ourselves are evil (we'll those of us not wegan anyway)?An excellent example. Are people who eat at McDonalds evil? What about people who swat flies? What about people who kill another living being 'just because its icky' (like a spider/ant/grub/whatever)? People 500 years from now may view what we do every day as 'reprehensible' or 'morally wrong' which just goes to show that these things change over time and so therefore can not be absolute.
That which is popular is not always right, that which is right is not always popular.
EDIT: Also, you continue to make the argument that just because X is not an absolutely right or wrong thing, that therefore there can be nothing that is an absolutely right or wrong thing.
That which is popular is not always right, that which is right is not always popular.
What does that mean in this context? I'm not following...
That which is popular is not always right, that which is right is not always popular.What does that mean in this context? I'm not following...
That just because something is viewed as okay or tolerated does not make it correct, and just because something is correct does not mean it will always be viewed as acceptable.
"Beware they who would call Evil Good, and Good Evil", might be another way to put it.
Of course, if you don't believe in an absolute moral standard, then both phrases are essentially meaningless.
One thing to remember is that there are cultural differences as well. I have friends in both Italy and Germany who inform me that in those countries, overt displays of national pride are frowned upon because they remind people of the Great Unpleasentness of the 1930's and 1940's. One of my friends has a wife who is German and she was shocked the we Americans have the flag everywhere. According to her, that is not how Germans do things. So there may be some of that reflected in the results as well.
Exactly!
As I said above, even british or irish people are far less likely to honest answer a question like, or answer it in the blinding affirnative an American would give. You'd look a bit of a twat shouting I love this nation in Dublin!
I'd warrant not so much in, say, Houston.
Yup, the Irish (me) are like that too in many ways, its not that the people are THAT different, its more poor cultural translation.Whereabouts are you from, if it's not too personal? My Irish mates (yes, mates. I say that now) take the piss (yeah, say that too) out of themselves in such a wonderfully refreshing way. It really gives credence to them taking the piss out of the UK :) Equal opportunity slander!
Zo
Thats definately very Irish of them! That emphatic swearing and telling stories are probably in our DNA!
I'm from Kilkenny, a farm in a little village, though know studying in Maynooth, and Kildare University town less than an hour from Dublin.
Funny Fact: The best Irish-themed bar I've ever been to was in Frankfurt, Germany!
"Beware they who would call Evil Good, and Good Evil", might be another way to put it.
Of course, if you don't believe in an absolute moral standard, then both phrases are essentially meaningless.
I guess that must be why I still don't get it... but ok lol
[opens Pandora's Box]
So who or what actually creates these absolute moral standards, if they allegedly exist?
[/opens Pandora's Box]
Wow, some people will argue ANYTHING! Reaching....a lot of you are reaching. I swear these threads are the reason I stick to the fun ones. Arguments for the sake of arguments. :\
Haha! I thought I stumbled into the wrong thread when I saw your name in here. ;)
Wow, some people will argue ANYTHING! Reaching....a lot of you are reaching. I swear these threads are the reason I stick to the fun ones. Arguments for the sake of arguments. :\
You are more than welcome to return to the "fun" threads :)
[opens Pandora's Box]
So who or what actually creates these absolute moral standards, if they allegedly exist?
[/opens Pandora's Box]
I was going to ask the same thing.
Your god or his -->
or his -->
<-- or his?
Or is it you that defines what is morally absolute?
Or is it just "common sense"?
Possibly all of us that support the current livestock practices are in fact evil. Maybe we have just deluded ourselves to believe that we are really good people, but in fact many of us are evil bastards. Certainly there are a fair number of vegans/animal rights activitist that feel just such a thing. Are they wrong? Just because I personally don't know all of the absolute wrongs and rights or even if not everything is an absolute wrong or right, doesn't mean that there doesn't exist any absolute wrongs or rights at all.
All IMO of course.
I'm not really sure what to do with an unknowable absolute good or absolute evil.
I mean the very concept seems to belong more in Douglas Adams novel then in the real world.
"It ultimately turned out that wearing pink was actually Absolute Evil. Unfortunately no one had ever gotten around to setting up some form of punishment to the perpetrators of this most heinous of crimes. Hence they escaped their just deserts - a fact, of which, they were entirely unaware."
I was going to ask the same thing.Your god or his -->
or his -->
<-- or his?
Or is it you that defines what is morally absolute?
Or is it just "common sense"?
I would say the last, but even some things that can be considered common sense doesn't necessarily adhere to absolutes.
Morality tends to be defined by those who are in power or from those who have the ability to legislate and enforce said morality. It does not necessarily make such to be right or wrong. Only the standard as defined by those times. Even trying to describe such in language is constricting in of itself as words are always redefining; never static.
I'll stop before I become too existentialist for my own tastes. :P
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I'd warrant not so much in, say, Houston.
Well, outside of Kirth's workplace (referencing what he's said about his co-workers), Houston is a pretty liberal city. There isn't a whole lot of flag waving "rah-rah" stuff here, mostly just people doing their thing, making money, wondering what this whole "recession" thing is all about, electing openly lesbian mayors, being the friendliest city in America, you know, stuff like that...
Wow, some people will argue ANYTHING! Reaching....a lot of you are reaching. I swear these threads are the reason I stick to the fun ones. Arguments for the sake of arguments. :\
I love arguments for the sake of arguments as long as the topic is interesting and the participants civil.
RPG Superstar 2013
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Then let's get some social conservatives in here! Let's keep this ball rolling.
You called?
In reading over the thread, while I should be working, I'd say I agree entirely with the OP.
A few things I'd state in defense of those prinicples:
1 - A lot of talking head sespouse those principles and can't be claimed to believe otherwise. You might not agree with them, but it takes temerity to argue they don't believe in the same America a lot of us believe in.
2 - Don't make the mistake of believing what other people tell you I or anyone else believes. Let me tell you. If you listen to some liberal candidates, they'll have you believing we hate poor people, won't have gay friends, and are really just extensions of the will of 'x' industry. Speaking as a poor person with gay friends who is self-employed, none of that is true. If I say lower taxes makes a more prosperous America, it's because I know that's true, and not because I happen to be some riched dude dressed as a poor gamer in Oklahoma. DOn't be fooled into thinking conservatives don't care about x demographic. We covet their vote, and we want them to be free and have low taxes, too. If we have one common rival to rail against, it would be growing the nanny state. That's bad for all of us.
3 - Please don't misunderstand the concept of American exceptionalism. It isn't that we think we're some dynastic empire destined to rle the world. Much like the attitude that freedom from government dependence makes individuals great, I think we also believe that embracing economic freedom and holding evil in the world at bay is a great goal for everyone. We conservative love America, but we also love our allies. We know that the vote is a powerful force and that where freedom reigns, despots don't. Which is why we are sensitive to the growth of government, because it creates opportunity for despotism.
That's it. I appreciate the post and stand ready to defend actual conservatism, not media-branded conservatism, which has been on my mind a lot lately.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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It sounds like the conservatives at work are driving you nuts again. ;)I wouldn't call them "conservatives." For the most part, conservatives are reasonable people.
"Homicide-crazy holy-rolling right-wing nutjobs," on the other hand...
Of which there are like ten over the last fifty years?
Maybe more, but the point is the same. As Coulter says, where are all those awful Christian terrorists blowing up buildings and shooting people in the streets?
And of course, no murderer is representing the gospel, right? A psycho bank robber or domestic terrorist could call himself a Christian conservative and be full of hot air, as his acts intrinsically run counter to his espoused beliefs.
If you listen to some liberal candidates, they'll have you believing we hate poor people, won't have gay friends, and are really just extensions of the will of 'x' industry.
Just like, if you listen to a lot of conservative candidates or radio hosts, etc., they'll tell you that liberals hate America, and are terrorist sympathizers, Communists, and baby-killers... all equally as true as the stuff about conservatives you quoted.
Of which there are like ten over the last fifty years?
Of which there are like 50 in my office right now, which was the point under discussion by Gary, houstonderek, and myself. Blind partisan knee-jerk reactions made out of context, with no understanding of the conversations the initial quotes are coming from, don't contribute a whole lot IMO -- your "contributor" tag notwithstanding.
A psycho bank robber or domestic terrorist could call himself a Christian conservative and be full of hot air, as his acts intrinsically run counter to his espoused beliefs.
In exactly the same way that same person could call himself a secular humanist, and equally be acting contrary to his espoused beliefs, yes. There's douchebags of every stripe.
Just like, if you listen to a lot of conservative candidates or radio hosts, etc., they'll tell you that liberals hate America, are terrosist sympathizers, Communists, and baby-killers... all equally as true as the stuff about conservatives you quoted.
No freaking kidding. The amount of offensive garbage that comes out of the mouths of some popular conservative radio personalities is incredible. You'd think us liberals were the freaking antichrist or something. It sometimes sounds as if they'd like to string us all up.
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Just like, if you listen to a lot of conservative candidates or radio hosts, etc., they'll tell you that liberals hate America, are terrosist sympathizers, Communists, and baby-killers... all equally as true as the stuff about conservatives you quoted.No freaking kidding. The amount of offensive garbage that comes out of the mouths of some popular conservative radio personalities is incredible. You'd think us liberals were the freaking antichrist or something. It sometimes sounds as if they'd like to string us all up.
Get a rope!
Oh, sorry, thought you said your picante sauce was made in New York City...
You'd think us liberals were the freaking antichrist or something.
"Us" liberals? I personally believe that everyone in politics is just about as good, bad, and dishonest as everyone else.
Oh, sorry, thought you said your picante sauce was made in New York City...
No; Cholula's made in Guadalajara, MX -- but it's a LEGAL immigrant, so relax!
Oh, Jesus, like I give two s#~#s about illegal immigration. Give them guest worker visas and concentrate on keeping real criminals out already.
Like I said, my co-workers are lining up to volunteer with the Minutemen. One direct quotation: "God intended America for Americans. The only defense against the hordes of illegals is our 2nd amendment right -- and I intend to use it!" I am not making this up.
This, Steven, is the difference between a "homicide-crazed right-wing nut job" (quoted here) and a conservative, since you seem to require an example.
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Oh, Jesus, like I give two s#~#s about illegal immigration. Give them guest worker visas and concentrate on keeping real criminals out already.Like I said, my co-workers are lining up to volunteer with the Minutemen. One direct quotation: "The only defense against the hordes of illegals is our 2nd amendment right -- and I intend to use it!" I am not making this up.
It was one of the few issues I though Bush 43 had 100% right. Too bad the rest of his party are a bunch of douchebags, would have sewn the Hispanic vote up for a generation had they just listened to Bush on that one...
I'd warrant not so much in, say, Houston.Well, outside of Kirth's workplace (referencing what he's said about his co-workers), Houston is a pretty liberal city. There isn't a whole lot of flag waving "rah-rah" stuff here, mostly just people doing their thing, making money, wondering what this whole "recession" thing is all about, electing openly lesbian mayors, being the friendliest city in America, you know, stuff like that...
I was just picking an example to be honest, but actually the city with one of the world's biggest gay pride parade (I'm fairly sure that's true right?) is a great example of not being the european stereotype of america.
Yet, I'd still say more people in Houston would openly admit loving there country than in Manchester, or Cork. It's just a cultural translation thing, hell even if you asked in the Houston, and then in say the agrarian hearth of America, you'd get wildly differing percentages. So I'm not sure even a simple question of 'Do you love your country?' will give a straight-forward answer.
I think that that poll was doomed from the start really. Maybe checking the rise and fall of percentages within a country from year to year would be more useful, but I don't think you can really use it for comparing nations. And that's between western europe and the US, the heartlands of weatern culture, imagine how skewed it would be for far more different cultures, say China, or India, or Polynesian Islanders.
In exactly the same way that same person could call himself a secular humanist, and equally be acting contrary to his espoused beliefs, yes. There's douchebags of every stripe.
Well said, 'good' causes, like vegetarianism and animal rights, and enviromental issues, and Hell even gay and womens rights have plenty of individual a%*#*#$s, douchebags and frank hypocrites.
Let alone political and religious folk.
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Oh, Jesus, like I give two s#~#s about illegal immigration. Give them guest worker visas and concentrate on keeping real criminals out already.Like I said, my co-workers are lining up to volunteer with the Minutemen. One direct quotation: "God intended America for Americans. The only defense against the hordes of illegals is our 2nd amendment right -- and I intend to use it!" I am not making this up.
I didn't know my brother worked with you.
As Coulter says, where are all those awful Christian terrorists blowing up buildings and shooting people in the streets?
Here's a couple examples... I could easily find many, many more.
This one's a two-for-one deal as it involves not just attacks against abortion doctors but also against homosexuals:
Timothy Mcveigh, irish catholic, bombed the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.
The point being that there are nutjobs amongst all religions so please don't single out one faith.
I didn't know my brother worked with you.Oh, Jesus, like I give two s#~#s about illegal immigration. Give them guest worker visas and concentrate on keeping real criminals out already.Like I said, my co-workers are lining up to volunteer with the Minutemen. One direct quotation: "God intended America for Americans. The only defense against the hordes of illegals is our 2nd amendment right -- and I intend to use it!" I am not making this up.
I'm terrified to death that this particular manager will find out that I was born in Germany. After hearing his Hitlerian Final Solution rants about "all immigrants," I'd be very afraid he'd shoot me.
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I'm terrified to death that this particular manager will find out that I was born in Germany. After hearing his Hitlerian rants about immigrants, I'd be very afraid he'd shoot me.I didn't know my brother worked with you.Oh, Jesus, like I give two s#~#s about illegal immigration. Give them guest worker visas and concentrate on keeping real criminals out already.Like I said, my co-workers are lining up to volunteer with the Minutemen. One direct quotation: "God intended America for Americans. The only defense against the hordes of illegals is our 2nd amendment right -- and I intend to use it!" I am not making this up.
That sucks. I hate guys like that. They give the rest of us a bad name.
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I was just picking an example to be honest, but actually the city with one of the world's biggest gay pride parade (I'm fairly sure that's true right?) is a great example of not being the european stereotype of america.I'd warrant not so much in, say, Houston.Well, outside of Kirth's workplace (referencing what he's said about his co-workers), Houston is a pretty liberal city. There isn't a whole lot of flag waving "rah-rah" stuff here, mostly just people doing their thing, making money, wondering what this whole "recession" thing is all about, electing openly lesbian mayors, being the friendliest city in America, you know, stuff like that...
Yeah, we also have an openly Lesbian mayor, 3/4 of our congress peeps are dems, I don't think we've had a repub mayor in forever, and I think the city went almost 70% for Obama (even though he lost the state overall). Houston doesn't fit easily into any stereotype, American or Texan, frankly :)
They give the rest of us a bad name.
Not in my mind. As I've tried to point out, I see an incredibly large gulf between "conservatives" (like you and Gary, for example) and "homicide-crazed holy-rolling right-wing nut jobs" (like a disturbingly large number of people I work with). Just because Steven appears to think I equate the two and starts a rant about it, doesn't make it so.
I'm terrified to death that this particular manager will find out that I was born in Germany. After hearing his Hitlerian Final Solution rants about "all immigrants," I'd be very afraid he'd shoot me.
I doubt he'd care. When he says 'America is for Americans' I'm sure he means white people who speak english.