I think it's just a matter that not as many people are checking the messageboards with all the holiday stuff going on.
I made a post 5 hours ago about a non-Ki using monk, replacing Ki abilities with spells and never got a peep either.
What I like about your build is the built in option for using wisdom instead of str for melee. This really changes the monks combat effectiveness.
I am wondering however, why are weapons in a monk's hands potentially less damaging than his own hands? For a little while I ran a campaign with a couple of monks that the monks could add 1/2 the damage potential of the monk weapon to their unarmed attack damage. So a d6 weapon adds +3 when rolling damage only.
I realize I've been doing a great deal of complaining about the nature of monks as combatants lately, and I decided it was time to put up or shut up, so here I am, putting up a proposed fix for those of you who care.
These are changes or additions to the monk class, everything else is as written in the Corerulebook/PRD
** spoiler omitted **...
I haven't read any of your complaints about the monk but I do realize it gets a lot of hate and I just don't understand why... Mind explaining here some of your issues? As far as your character options go I like a lot of what you done. I'm going to go double check the Pathfinder version and compare and contrast but I may be using some of your options if my players want. I'm also a fan of the WIS mod over STR.
***EDIT***
Im actually a big fan of a lot of what you done. When I get more time later i'll post some changes i would make and offer a more elaborate opinion.
In our campaign, one of the monks went and got Kama's and Sai's enchanted with different abilities, and would cycle through them when fighting a new creature to learn if anything did better at defeating said creature.
With your Wisdom instead of Strength rule however, I think I'd probably limit weapons. Monks spend all that time training to use their hands that weapons would only slow them down.
That being said, I would add spells or abilities to mimic druid spells, such as Magic Fang, ,or even allow a monk to get rings or hand wraps enchanted as weapons.
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I am sure the weapon damage and enhanced properties like shocking burst, or spell storing were brought up in your other threads as reasons why the weapons didnt get the unarmed attack damage of a monk's hands.
However, just in case they did not, I am bringing that up here. Also, the monk can replace a front line fighter without any of the proposed changes (ideas) in your opening post.
Monks already get full BAB with Flurry, which is the monk signiture attack. Enhancing a monk with the ability to add armor or weapon enchantments goes so far beyond ultra powerful for a character class that gets dex and wisdom bonuses, along with monk level bonuses to AC. I mean, just how many things do you want one class to do?
Full HP as well? What use is a fighter class then? Monks will now have armor and weapon enhancement abilities, d10 hp, full bab for everything, and stunning fist abilities, ki powers, bonus feats in the first 6 levels that equal a fighter, bonus movement without armor penalties, and all you really give up is some critical threat range if you happen to pick a weapon that is not 20/x2?
And the wisdom for strength bonus option should not even be an option, as wisdom is the main attribute for so many of the monks other powers that this screams munchkin - min/maxing.
I do not mean this as an attack on your ideas, but I could not imagine a monk any more powerful than they already are.
If you allow this option in your game, I would advise to watch out for anyone who knows how to make characters well. I could so take advantage of these options and make a monk that could do well over 100pts of damage in a single flurry attack at 12th level monk.
Do the math for average damage with a monk that starts with a 17 wisdom at 1st level and uses his three stat increases in wisdom and has a +2 holy shocking burst quarterstaff (easilly within the power of a 12th level character to have) and tell me what kind of damage they would do against an evil character (no crits calculated).
7 attacks (with ki power for extra attack) and 5 hit against an evil creature with just a few of your stated adjustments used...
+10d6 holy damage
+10d6 quarterstaff damage
+25 damage from strength(wisdom) bonus
+10 damage from staff enhancement +2
+5d6 lightning damage
That is 122pts average damage. And we didnt even throw in the stunning fist possibilities...
Now tell me again how a monk needs this?
I do not mean this as an attack on your ideas, but I could not imagine a monk any more powerful than they already are.
Knowing CuttinCurt and his style of play, I submit that he very well can imagine a more powerful monk. In fact, I can readily see him insisting on playing it, much to my dismay as a DM. :)
That said, there are several things that I like about kyrt-ryder's proposed changes. Using the monk's Wis bonus in place of his strength is an excellent idea. It makes sense, is internally consistent with the class design, and (most importantly) isn't overpowering.
I'm highlighting this last bit because -- again, spoken as a DM -- I loathe monks. I hated them in 3.0, again in 3.5, only slightly less in PFRPG and will probably dislike them in D&D 8.0 when we're all living like the Jetsons. Why? Because (IMHO) they're bloody overpowered compared to normal front-line types, and it frustrates the heck out of DM. You can either build a threat that will challenge the monk (and wipe up the rest of the party) or build something balanced for the party (and watch the monk sneer at it from behind a flurry of blows).
Case in point: when I last DM'd Paizo's Second Darkness, the party front man was a monk. By the time we reached about halfway through the Adventure Path, the monk could regularly move all the way across the maps in one round, and would linger in front of the main villain doing five attacks per round thereafter. He was impervious to ranged attacks and area effect spells. When compared to all the other characters in the party, the monk had all the striking power of a fighter, all the slipperiness of a rogue, and the effective armor of a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. The only thing he couldn't do was launch a fireball, and that's only because I wouldn't let him put skill points into use magic device.
I swear, if I never hear "I blow a ki point on ..." again, it'll be too soon ...
Several times, I made the innocent player pull out both the PFRPG Player's Guide and his character sheet to count everything up. Dex bonus, Wis bonus, ring of protection, ki power, fighting defensively, +1 robe-of-the-mall-security-cop ... even though everything he had was textbook-legal and cash-value appropriate for a character of his level, he could always manage to come up with a half-dozen attacks and a 40+ AC (with evasion!) at the drop of a hat. Meanwhile. the sorcerer in the back sported a 17 AC, the cleric a 19 with a 70% chance of missing with her primary weapon, and the rogue got one attack/round that missed about half the time. The monk irritated the other players so much that they once had his character hung in effigy (I awarded bonus XP for clever use of a G.I. Joe figure in pre-game setup).
Am I being a bit facetious? Yes. I am. I gleefully admit it. But not entirely.
There has to be a middle ground for monks, where they can contribute reasonably and cost-effectively without taking over every other party role (save for spell-slinger). I really hate it when one build always takes center-stage, no matter how much you try to sculpt an encounter to bring attention on a different character. It undermines the cooperative spirit of team-play.
For the record, I did finally take my Second Darkness monk down a peg. I had to throw a Swordsage (from ToB:Bo9S) at him in a one-on-one duel. Everything else in the adventure was just mulch under his sandals.
So, yeah ... I;d just as soon ratchet the monk down several pegs, rather than power him up. Just my two cents, but ... YMMV.
I realize I've been doing a great deal of complaining about the nature of monks as combatants lately, and I decided it was time to put up or shut up, so here I am, putting up a proposed fix for those of you who care.
These are changes or additions to the monk class, everything else is as written in the Corerulebook/PRD
** spoiler omitted **...
I have an ability for mind over matter for my monk rebuild. Great minds think alike. Now I will read the rest of it.
I realize I've been doing a great deal of complaining about the nature of monks as combatants lately, and I decided it was time to put up or shut up, so here I am, putting up a proposed fix for those of you who care.
These are changes or additions to the monk class, everything else is as written in the Corerulebook/PRD
** spoiler omitted **...
I am making a few classes of my own. Heres an idea. The monk should remain an unarmed combatant, but I understand the need for weapons. When using monk weapons why not allow him to do damage equal to two steps down from what he can currently do.
Example
A 12th level monk can do 2d6 unarmed, so with a monk weapon he could do 1d8. Another idea is to have his ki strike abilites that over come DR channel through the weapon.
I am sure the weapon damage and enhanced properties like shocking burst, or spell storing were brought up in your other threads as reasons why the weapons didnt get the unarmed attack damage of a monk's hands.
However, just in case they did not, I am bringing that up here. Also, the monk can replace a front line fighter without any of the proposed changes (ideas) in your opening post.
I do not mean this as an attack on your ideas, but I could not imagine a monk any more powerful than they already are.
The monk can not replace a front line fighter. Most of the board does not respect the monk due to its abilities or lack there of. Now if you could build a monk, and detail how it could be useful you would be famous here. If fame does not appeal to you then, saving kyrt-rider time on his build, and me on mine. My player also wants to be a monk, but his monk is suboptimal. Now doing this within the PF core rules would be ideal since any class can be made to be decent with all the 3.5 splat books.
Arguments that wont fly:
1. The monk is a caster killer
2. The monk does a lot of damage.
for my money, allowing a monk to swap wisdom for strength is the best and only thing I would change. Wisdom really should be their main stat. As it stand strength offers better returns in combat, which is realistic but less flavorful. Why do all monks need to be Arnold strong? Where are the old, longbearded monks, who still wreck people?
With wisdom covering to-hit and damage bonuses, monks with high wisdoms are likely to have an AC that more closely matches a fighter in heavier armor, have stunning fist DCs equivalent to a full caster's DCs (which means you can count on it succeeding against level appropriate CR, for the most part), and a few more Ki points to spend. As a house rule, I think it goes a long way to making monks more unique and less like "fighter-lite". Also less dependent on an additional stat bonus items.
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I am sure the weapon damage and enhanced properties like shocking burst, or spell storing were brought up in your other threads as reasons why the weapons didnt get the unarmed attack damage of a monk's hands.
However, just in case they did not, I am bringing that up here. Also, the monk can replace a front line fighter without any of the proposed changes (ideas) in your opening post.
I do not mean this as an attack on your ideas, but I could not imagine a monk any more powerful than they already are.
The monk can not replace a front line fighter. Most of the board does not respect the monk due to its abilities or lack there of. Now if you could build a monk, and detail how it could be useful you would be famous here. If fame does not appeal to you then, saving kyrt-rider time on his build, and me on mine. My player also wants to be a monk, but his monk is suboptimal. Now doing this within the PF core rules would be ideal since any class can be made to be decent with all the 3.5 splat books.
Arguments that wont fly:
1. The monk is a caster killer
2. The monk does a lot of damage.
I am sure the weapon damage and enhanced properties like shocking burst, or spell storing were brought up in your other threads as reasons why the weapons didnt get the unarmed attack damage of a monk's hands.
However, just in case they did not, I am bringing that up here. Also, the monk can replace a front line fighter without any of the proposed changes (ideas) in your opening post.
I do not mean this as an attack on your ideas, but I could not imagine a monk any more powerful than they already are.
The monk can not replace a front line fighter. Most of the board does not respect the monk due to its abilities or lack there of. Now if you could build a monk, and detail how it could be useful you would be famous here. If fame does not appeal to you then, saving kyrt-rider time on his build, and me on mine. My player also wants to be a monk, but his monk is suboptimal. Now doing this within the PF core rules would be ideal since any class can be made to be decent with all the 3.5 splat books.
Arguments that wont fly:
1. The monk is a caster killer
2. The monk does a lot of damage.
Where is the reply? This is just most of the sentiments here. I am not trying to be hostile. :)
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I appologize, I wrote a nice reply but it didnt show.
I will post what I did after christmas as it is late and I am wearing down from all the family activities. On Monday, I will present my monk which I ran in the 2nd darkness campaign for scrutiny.
It made it the whole way through as the main frontline character.
I hope the build will help. I promise I will have it up Monday, the 28th of Dec.
Curt.
I appologize, I wrote a nice reply but it didnt show.
I will post what I did after christmas as it is late and I am wearing down from all the family activities. On Monday, I will present my monk which I ran in the 2nd darkness campaign for scrutiny.
It made it the whole way through as the main frontline character.
I hope the build will help. I promise I will have it up Monday, the 28th of Dec.
Curt.
Ok. Have a Merry Xmas
