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When a creature description contains a variant that lists an adjustment to CR (instead of a flat CR change), and includes a simple template as part of its changes, does the listed CR adjustment include the Simple Template's CR adjustment, or is it in addition.
FOR EXAMPLE: For the Ant, Giant
Drone (+1 CR) Drones have the advanced simple template and a fly speed of 30 feet (average).
The advanced simple template gives a CR +1 on its own. The base Giant Ant (i.e. Soldier) has CR 2. Does the Drone have a CR of 3 (base 2 + 1 for drone) or 4 (base 2 + 1 for drone + 1 for advanced)?
I'm guessing it's built-in to the variant's CR adjustment, but I haven't seen anything that specifically says either way.
Creative Director
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It's built in. You can't quantify the various elements of a variant that easily, and the additional things a giant ant drone gets in addition to the Advanced template (flight) is simply not enough to justify increasing its CR by an additional point.
This DOES mean that an Advanced Giant Ant and a Giant Ant Drone have the same CR, even though the drone can fly whereas the other cannot, but that's fine.
I have a few other questions regarding this type of thing as well. I'll stick with the Ant, Giant example.
1)For the CMD (13) there is a different figure for trip (21). I'm not sure where that comes from (I'm thinking the fact is has 6 legs), but with the ability score changes for the drone & queen the CMD changes. Does trip for the drone go up the same 7 points?
2)To advance the queen for the giant template you have to go up in size. Are the stats in the Ability Scores section (+4 Str & Con, -2 Dex) taking into account the size difference? Or Do we need to use Table 2-2 Size Changes (med to large +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor) to alter the Ability Scores further?
Ant, Giant, size medium Starting Stats
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 17 Int -- Wis 13 Cha 11 +5 natural armor
Ant, Giant, Queen size large (adds advanced and giant templates)
Template figures only
Str 22 Dex 12 Con 25 Int 4 Wis 17 Cha 15 +10 natural armor
Size Table figures & Template figures together
Str 30 Dex 10 Con 33 Int 4 Wis 17 Cha 15 +12 natural armor
I would think the Template figures only would be correct the correct figures, but I'm not sure.
3)How do the templates affect XP? I realize the CR went up and looked for a table to see how much the XP increases and couldn't find any information (table or text). Did I just miss it somewhere?
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Creative Director
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1)For the CMD (13) there is a different figure for trip (21). I'm not sure where that comes from (I'm thinking the fact is has 6 legs), but with the ability score changes for the drone & queen the CMD changes. Does trip for the drone go up the same 7 points?
Every extra leg after 2 gives you a +2 bonus on CMD to avoid being tripped. (The difference between 21 and 13 is actually 8, which comes from the ant having four "extra" legs, each of which give a +2 bonus). If you have no legs (like a snake) or lots of legs (like a centipede) you're pretty much immune to being tripped.
2)To advance the queen for the giant template you have to go up in size. Are the stats in the Ability Scores section (+4 Str & Con, -2 Dex) taking into account the size difference? Or Do we need to use Table 2-2 Size Changes (med to large +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor) to alter the Ability Scores further?
Ant, Giant, size medium Starting Stats
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 17 Int -- Wis 13 Cha 11 +5 natural armorAnt, Giant, Queen size large (adds advanced and giant templates)
Template figures only
Str 22 Dex 12 Con 25 Int 4 Wis 17 Cha 15 +10 natural armor
Size Table figures & Template figures together
Str 30 Dex 10 Con 33 Int 4 Wis 17 Cha 15 +12 natural armorI would think the Template figures only would be correct the correct figures, but I'm not sure.
The "Ability Scores" section in the Giant Creature simple template's rebuild rules present a faster way to adjust a creature's size. If you actually use table 2–2 to rebuild a monster at a different size, use those ability score adjustments; in that case, you'll need to look more closely at its final abilities to determine its actual CR. The Giant simple template is just that: simple. Its ability score modifiers are more limited, and this means it's easier to apply a flat CR adjustment. So... depending on which route you choose to adjust your ant, you'll get different results; which one is "right" is up to you.
3)How do the templates affect XP? I realize the CR went up and looked for a table to see how much the XP increases and couldn't find any information (table or text). Did I just miss it somewhere?
Once you apply a template, the monster's CR probably changes. You simply use that new, final CR to determine how much XP it's worth. You ignore whatever the monster's original CR was.