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Good analogy for me. YES you work with what you have in life. My point exactly. You may start out optimizing your choices, but you dont get your whole life mapped out in advance. You will make wrong choices. You will make a suboptimal decision. You can't erase it off you 'character sheet' & rebuild.Even aside MIB's excellent answer to this, that's what makes gaming fun. It's NOT real life. It's NOT "you're stuck with what you have". It IS "you can be the best you can be", it IS people who are nothing less than superhuman.
Indeed.
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Toon - when you mean character - I understand it's reference to the CGI animated character that you portray in a computer gameActually, it's older than that by a bit. "Toon" comes from (text-only) MUDs, where a "toon" was developer slang for a player-controlled object. Since the difference between developer and player with regards to MUDs is slim, it slipped out into the playerbase, and from the MUD playerbase it slipped into MMOs. "Mob" (for "mobile object", which was generally a monster you had to kill) and "con" (short for "consider", the command to evaluate how tough an enemy is relative to you), which I see in D&D discussions occasionally, come from the same origin.
Well thank you for the info.
It doesn't at all make me appreciate the term when used to speak about my own or their character at our table games.
Robert
Even casting a min/level spell means you have an idea the BBEG is nearby.CoDzilla. What is this but a way to spend 3-5 rounds buffing yourself and smash the BBEGs head in when he had less than 10hp left? Oh look, a hypothical situation full of special conditions.Maybe you've been talking to Dragonchess Player? The traditional CODzillas put on hour/level buffs along with their socks, then spend one round in combat buffing. Anyone who spends three rounds in combat playing with themself doesn't deserve XP.Uh-huh.
Just like forcing 1 min/level spells to be cast in combat or ignoring certain 10 min/level buffs aren't "hypothetical situations full of special conditions?" Besides, neither you nor anyone else has shown how the "traditional CoDzilla" (as you define it) is so much more powerful than even a bard (bard/fighter/eldritch knight at higher levels) with a heroism spell cast and a few potions of enlarge person, much less a fighter with level appropriate gear.
Yep. It's called research and scouting (to include magical means such as arcane eye, a crystal ball, etc.). If a middle to high level party can't get a pretty good idea of the layout, inhabitants, and routines of the location before they start kicking in doors, they either aren't trying or the GM is deliberately shutting down options. See also "scry and fry," although that specific tactic depends more on high level movement spells, the "scry" portion can be accomplished much earlier.
With the persistent or hour/level spells you cast the spells when you wake up, and you are always ready, no buffing needed unless you just want to. That is a lot different than entering combat and wasting time buffing up. If you can't see the difference run a mock fight with a 3.5 buffed up cleric doing fighter-level damage to you bad guy, and have another guy sitting in the corner doing nothing.
Again with forcing 1 min/level spells to be cast in combat.
All the fighter with appropriate level gear can do is fight. A cleric buffed up could fight as well or better, and still had the option of casting spells.
A fully buffed cleric, using long term buffs, 1 min/level spells on the cleric list, and one or two in-combat spells (divine power and righteous might) can out fight a fighter. With just the long term buffs and divine power, you are close to being on the same footing as the fighter (who will have a higher Str and a girdle of giant strength), but without the bonus feats (and probably a lot less feats invested in increasing combat ability). And righteous might, apart from the DR, isn't that much better than using a potion of enlarge person (market cost 50 gp).
BTW, those that wish to put their money where their mouth is on how well a "buffed up cleric" actually fights, head on over to here (uses Pathfinder RPG rules). So far, the cleric isn't looking that great.
So far, the cleric isn't looking that great.
...And that wont be quickly rectified :p
I've thrown a lot of work at that thread, please don't misrepresent it, DCP.
True, but even bending the limits slightly (one round of preparation in addition to long term buffs), the cleric is not as great as some people claim. You showed that yourself with the archer cleric in the same thread when you included the effects of divine power under "random factoids."
Yes, the cleric can serve as an effective combatant. But so can just about any character, with the right level-appropriate feats, spells, and equipment. The cleric doesn't automatically overshadow all other classes in combat, just because of divine power, greater magic weapon, and magic vestment.
And your thread does accurately answer to:
With the persistent or hour/level spells you cast the spells when you wake up, and you are always ready, no buffing needed unless you just want to.
I've been reading up on design theory lately, so I'm pretty well sick of all those terms and arguments for and against their use.
A Certain Fallacy - People are going to take a game and do whatever they want with it; that's just the nature of the beast and right or wrong, you can't stop them from doing it. Sure, maybe they might completely mangle any enjoyment or intention intended with the product, but Rule 0 is as much an admission as it is a piece of advise.
Fluff, Crunch, Nerf - I don't really dig these terms, but they're easy and people know what they mean, so I use them.