This Quick adaption only took me 5 minutes to plan out and 15 to type.
The martial adepts don't really need any new abilities to be pathfinder compatable. i borrowed a few ideas i liked from other people. implemented a few of my own.
heres the easy adaption (i recently noticed that they all for some odd reason have acrobatics and perception on thier lists, oh wait, i know why? they had one or more acrobatics components, plus they had concentration and/or a perception component) a few have new class skills.
Tome of Battle Pathfinder Conversion
Swordsage Class Skills
Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (History) Knowledge (nobility) Knowledge (nature) Knowledge (local) Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (Martial Lore) Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim (added sleight of hand, escape artist and knowledge (religion) to list of class skills as all 3 sound thematic.)
Swordsage Starting gold (As Rogue), Starting Age (As monk)
Crusader Class Skills
Acrobatics, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (Martial Lore), Perception, Ride, Sense Motive (Perception replaced concentration as the most viable substitute, sense motive was thrown in due to fitting the theme)
Crusader Starting gold (As Fighter), Starting Age (As paladin)
Warblade Class skills
Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Martial Lore), Perception, Swim. (Since Concentration is no longer a skill, Perception was added as the most thematic replacement)
Warblade Starting gold (As Fighter), Starting Age, (As Paladin)
Updates to the 9 disciplines
Desert wind’s key skill, change to Acrobatics, change any references as appropriate, Acrobatics is the new Tumble
Devoted spirit, keep as is (Key Skill, intimidate)
Diamond mind, change key skill to Perception, change any references as appropriate, Perception was the closest thematic skill
Iron heart, change key skill to Acrobatics, change any references as appropriate, Acrobatics is the new balance
Setting sun, keep as is (Key Skill, Sense Motive)
Shadow hand, change key skill to Stealth, change any references as appropriate, stealth is the new hide
Stone Dragon, change key skill to Acrobatics, change any references as appropriate, Acrobatics is the new balance
Tiger claw, Change key skill to Acrobatics, change any references as appropriate, Acrobatics is the new jump.
White raven, keep as is, (Key Skill, Diplomacy)
how do you like this easy conversion? now they work just fine as pathfinder classes. they already closely met the power level. a little below the pathfinder mark, but not too steep a gap. no real dead level fillers neccessary.
hope you enjoy! take a glass of milk on your way out.
This Quick adaption only took me 5 minutes to plan out and 15 to type.
The martial adepts don't really need any new abilities to be pathfinder compatable. i borrowed a few ideas i liked from other people. implemented a few of my own.
heres the easy adaption (i recently noticed that they all for some odd reason have acrobatics and perception on thier lists, oh wait, i know why? they had one or more acrobatics components, plus they had concentration and/or a perception component) a few have new class skills.
Tome of Battle Pathfinder Conversion
Swordsage Class Skills
Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (History) Knowledge (nobility) Knowledge (nature) Knowledge (local) Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (Martial Lore) Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim (added sleight of hand, escape artist and knowledge (religion) to list of class skills as all 3 sound thematic.)
Swordsage Starting gold (As Rogue), Starting Age (As monk)
Crusader Class Skills
Acrobatics, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (Martial Lore), Perception, Ride, Sense Motive (Perception replaced concentration as the most viable substitute, sense motive was thrown in due to fitting the theme)
Crusader Starting gold (As Fighter), Starting Age (As paladin)
Warblade Class skills
Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Martial Lore), Perception, Swim. (Since Concentration is no longer a skill, Perception was added as the most thematic replacement)
Warblade Starting gold (As Fighter), Starting Age, (As Paladin)
Updates to the 9 disciplines
Desert wind’s key skill, change to Acrobatics, change any references as appropriate, Acrobatics is the new Tumble
Devoted spirit, keep as is (Key Skill, intimidate)
Diamond mind, change key skill to Perception, change any references as appropriate, Perception was the closest thematic skill
Iron heart,...
Looks fine. If you liked ToB in 3.5 you will like it in pathfinder. I dont think any changes need to be made to the classes themselves, they are pretty solid in my view.
...This Quick adaption only took me 5 minutes to plan out and 15 to type.
The martial adepts don't really need any new abilities to be pathfinder compatable. i borrowed a few ideas i liked from other people. implemented a few of my own.
heres the easy adaption (i recently noticed that they all for some odd reason have acrobatics and perception on thier lists, oh wait, i know why? they had one or more acrobatics components, plus they had concentration and/or a perception component) a few have new class skills.
Tome of Battle Pathfinder Conversion
Swordsage Class Skills
Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (History) Knowledge (nobility) Knowledge (nature) Knowledge (local) Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (Martial Lore) Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim (added sleight of hand, escape artist and knowledge (religion) to list of class skills as all 3 sound thematic.)
Swordsage Starting gold (As Rogue), Starting Age (As monk)
Crusader Class Skills
Acrobatics, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (Martial Lore), Perception, Ride, Sense Motive (Perception replaced concentration as the most viable substitute, sense motive was thrown in due to fitting the theme)
Crusader Starting gold (As Fighter), Starting Age (As paladin)
Warblade Class skills
Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Martial Lore), Perception, Swim. (Since Concentration is no longer a skill, Perception was added as the most thematic replacement)
Warblade Starting gold (As Fighter), Starting Age, (As Paladin)
Updates to the 9 disciplines
Desert wind’s key skill, change to Acrobatics, change any references as appropriate, Acrobatics is the new Tumble
Devoted spirit, keep as is (Key Skill, intimidate)
Diamond mind, change key skill to Perception, change any references as appropriate, Perception was the closest
i liked the concepts, but i never had a dm that will allow me to play any of the 3 martial adept classes. even with a cheesecake bribe. hopefully pathfinder fixes that.
i liked the concepts, but i never had a dm that will allow me to play any of the 3 martial adept classes. even with a cheesecake bribe. hopefully pathfinder fixes that.
Unfortunately that is unlikely. I am pretty sure once people get a bad impression of a dnd subsystem (im looking at you psionics) it pretty much sticks. It is possible your dm may see the light, but I am confident their distaste for ToB if they had one will remain. Good luck though. I always liked Tome of Battle, and have always allowed it at my table.
i liked the concepts, but i never had a dm that will allow me to play any of the 3 martial adept classes. even with a cheesecake bribe. hopefully pathfinder fixes that.Unfortunately that is unlikely. I am pretty sure once people get a bad impression of a dnd subsystem (im looking at you psionics) it pretty much sticks. It is possible your dm may see the light, but I am confident their distaste for ToB if they had one will remain. Good luck though. I always liked Tome of Battle, and have always allowed it at my table.
i guess my quest to walk the sublime path will never be fulfilled, unless i show my dm the light. he claims to be afraid of Cheese, but i think he never read the system. especially as i spend hours a week glossing over the swordsage, drooling, saying, "The Day will come, that i shall play you."
i come to realize, it may not be cheese he's afraid of, but the concept of anime. or that he has heard negative rumors about the class.
i liked the concepts, but i never had a dm that will allow me to play any of the 3 martial adept classes. even with a cheesecake bribe. hopefully pathfinder fixes that.Unfortunately that is unlikely. I am pretty sure once people get a bad impression of a dnd subsystem (im looking at you psionics) it pretty much sticks. It is possible your dm may see the light, but I am confident their distaste for ToB if they had one will remain. Good luck though. I always liked Tome of Battle, and have always allowed it at my table.i guess my quest to walk the sublime path will never be fulfilled, unless i show my dm the light. he claims to be afraid of Cheese, but i think he never read the system. especially as i spend hours a week glossing over the swordsage, drooling, saying, "The Day will come, that i shall play you."
i come to realize, it may not be cheese he's afraid of, but the concept of anime. or that he has heard negative rumors about the class.
Well there are definately lots of negative opinions of the classes in the book. And while the crusader and the warblade in my mind fit fantasy just fine, the swordsage is all anime. I happen to like the flavor, but there are lots of dms especially out there that take one look at a manuever that lets you leave a flaming streak of doom as you shoot accross the battlefield and say....um...no. Personally I dont see anything in ToB a spellcaster cant do, and probably do better, which is why I dont mind them. It brings martial style characters up nice and close to spellcasters.
The problem is ofcourse lots of people already see spellcasters as overpowered, so when they see everyone at the table that powerful they think its total cheese. One of the most important limiting factor i know was if i remember correctly the errate removed the ability to recover manuevers for the 3 classes. Which is a wise way to go, as the infinite powers per combat was a way out of touch with normal party resource management. If you include that with a big shiny stamp on it, most dms will at least be more likely to consider the classes.
Wait, there was an errata that removed the maneuver recovery?????????????
Wait, there was an errata that removed the maneuver recovery?????????????
Not that I've seen...
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The designer of ToB said he had a few fixes that make his classes playable without being the endless killing machines they are currently. These proposed fixes are in no particular order...
1) Get rid of the Ability of a Warblade to take fighter only feats.
2) Remove the Warblade d12 hit dice, reduce it to the normal d10.
3) Crusaders get their maneuvers like anyone else. They start with them already prepared.
4) Remove all maneuver refresh systems. They were clunky and tacked on really. (His own admission)
The only one of those that is a good change is to switch the Warblade's HD with the Crusader's. The Tome of Battle is eminently playable and well balanced precisely <i>because</i> the marital adepts have a stable of interesting tricks they can do regularly (but not constantly; even the Warblade can only use the same maneuver once every other round, and is usually better off doing other maneuvers first). The book is one of the few in 3.5 that gives melee nice things, and one of the very few that gives it <i>interesting</i> nice things, as opposed to spamming a charging Power Attack combo that is the only thing the character can do. Tome of Battle does not need fixes.
The only one of those that is a good change is to switch the Warblade's HD with the Crusader's. The Tome of Battle is eminently playable and well balanced precisely <i>because</i> the marital adepts have a stable of interesting tricks they can do regularly (but not constantly; even the Warblade can only use the same maneuver once every other round, and is usually better off doing other maneuvers first). The book is one of the few in 3.5 that gives melee nice things, and one of the very few that gives it <i>interesting</i> nice things, as opposed to spamming a charging Power Attack combo that is the only thing the character can do. Tome of Battle does not need fixes.
The most important fix is the change to the recovery methods. I agree that melee types should have fun and interesting things to do, but the ability to do it indefinately with no need for resource management is game breaking. As it is the per encounter mechanic clashes with the vancian system, allowing them to reset their per encounter powers with at most a full round action is unreasonable.
I also think that no class should get fighter only feats, thats the fighter's thing. You dont give away the bread and butter of a class to another. The warblade should be its own class, not a fighter replacement.
It gets fighter only feats as a fighter of a lower level. Just like the ranger gets the druid's animal companion 'thing' as a druid of a lower level. Besides, the warblade and the fighter both represent the archetypes of highly trained weapons masters; from a fluff perspective, it's pretty strange that the warblade shouldn't be able to get Weapon Specialization if he wants it.
Also: 'At most a full round action'? A full-round action is enormous. A swordsage who has to recover his maneuvers is doing <i>nothing</i> else that round. He's vulnerable and contributing nothing--and unless he spends a feat, which he has precious few of, he only gets one maneuver back from that. The warblade certainly has it easier, taking swift action to recover his readied maneuvers (which is pretty small, especially at low levels). But doing so means he can't use any of his counters to protect himself when attacked, and either his damage or mobility will drop for the lack of using maneuvers. A crusader doesn't have to worry about action economy for his maneuvers, true. But his selection of usable maneuvers is also randomized, and he might not be able to use the most optimal maneuver right when he needs it. And as far as it goes, a standard character can Power Attack, Trip, Grapple, and other speial maneuvers idnefinitely without having to worry about resource management (besides, of course, HP and stuff). Martial maneuvers are on the whole slightly more esoteric (and in some instances, slightly more mystical) versions of that. They have a mild resource management costs, but to make them completely non-repeatable would not make sense with the flavor.
And the intelligent caster or characters fighting from range still have the advantage over the martial adepts, who have next to no skill in ranged combat.
It gets fighter only feats as a fighter of a lower level. Just like the ranger gets the druid's animal companion 'thing' as a druid of a lower level. Besides, the warblade and the fighter both represent the archetypes of highly trained weapons masters; from a fluff perspective, it's pretty strange that the warblade shouldn't be able to get Weapon Specialization if he wants it.
Also: 'At most a full round action'? A full-round action is enormous. A swordsage who has to recover his maneuvers is doing <i>nothing</i> else that round. He's vulnerable and contributing nothing--and unless he spends a feat, which he has precious few of, he only gets one maneuver back from that. The warblade certainly has it easier, taking swift action to recover his readied maneuvers (which is pretty small, especially at low levels). But doing so means he can't use any of his counters to protect himself when attacked, and either his damage or mobility will drop for the lack of using maneuvers. A crusader doesn't have to worry about action economy for his maneuvers, true. But his selection of usable maneuvers is also randomized, and he might not be able to use the most optimal maneuver right when he needs it. And as far as it goes, a standard character can Power Attack, Trip, Grapple, and other speial maneuvers idnefinitely without having to worry about resource management (besides, of course, HP and stuff). Martial maneuvers are on the whole slightly more esoteric (and in some instances, slightly more mystical) versions of that. They have a mild resource management costs, but to make them completely non-repeatable would not make sense with the flavor.
And the intelligent caster or characters fighting from range still have the advantage over the martial adepts, who have next to no skill in ranged combat.
I would argue that a druids 'thing' is wildshape and divine spellcasting, the animal companion is a boost but not a primary feature. Fighter only feats are really the only meaningful thing that makes a fighter unique (except to a lesser degree armor training).
And no, an action to get all of your powers back, be it swift, standard or full round is not balanced, when the closest existing comparison is spellcasting, which is a per day mechanic. The endurance of the initiator classes was way above and beyond what casters could do, making them more powerful then the existing top tier classes. That isnt power creep, thats power leap. A single round doesnt even come close to covering that since almost all the manuevers are some kind of an attack even when they buff the initiator, where as caster often have to spend a round or two casting buffs in the first place.
I also fail to see how most of desert wind, diamond mind, or especially shadow manuevers are some form of an existing combat manuever? There are groups that are more martial and others that are more in line with magic. But that isnt hte issue to me, the issue is these are potent abilities, comparable to spells, that can be done all day long with no regard to resource management. That is overwhelmingly more powerful then existing classes and it is a big part of what left a bad impression of the classes on alot of people. So yea at low levels a sword sage, or warblade might have to use a normal attack, but that is still considerably better then when a wizard had to pull out his crossbow at low levels. I honestly would have much prefered to see a vancian system in ToB but wizards was experimenting with per encounter effects for 4E (no this is not a cheap shot at 4E, I am just saying it seems that later books in 3.5 were a lead in to some of the 4E mechanical changes) by then.
Martial maneuvers are organized int he same way as spells, but they are not spells, and they are certainly not comparable to what a Wizard or Cleric can do. Let's compare shall we?
9th level Diamond Mind: Two Full Attacks. Pretty damn nice. More actions are always good, since an action is a hefty cost. At the same level, the Wizard casts Time Stop for even more actions. 9th level Tiger Claw forces a Fort Save or Die on a target, plus a hefty amount of damage. The Cleric, meanwhile casts Implosion, which causes a save or die every round for 4 rounds, and can affect multiple creatures. 9th level Stone Dragon inflicts hefty Con damage (if the adept is on the ground, mind you, which means flying creatures can easily make themselvesz immune to it. Like, say, a Wizard with Overland Flight or Phantom Steed.) The Wizard can inflict Con Damage much earlier, with a Cloudkill (And by this level, they can force the adept to remain in the Cloudkill with a Force Cage.
The Tome of Battle classes are not better than the top tier (read: casters). They're just far better balanced against them than the fighter, or, Kord bless them, the monk or paladin--and are competitive in part because their tricks are repeatable, subject to the limits of the action economy--which, especially in the case of the swordsage's full-round recovery is more important than you think.
Martial maneuvers are organized int he same way as spells, but they are not spells, and they are certainly not comparable to what a Wizard or Cleric can do. Let's compare shall we?
9th level Diamond Mind: Two Full Attacks. Pretty damn nice. More actions are always good, since an action is a hefty cost. At the same level, the Wizard casts Time Stop for even more actions. 9th level Tiger Claw forces a Fort Save or Die on a target, plus a hefty amount of damage. The Cleric, meanwhile casts Implosion, which causes a save or die every round for 4 rounds, and can affect multiple creatures. 9th level Stone Dragon inflicts hefty Con damage (if the adept is on the ground, mind you, which means flying creatures can easily make themselvesz immune to it. Like, say, a Wizard with Overland Flight or Phantom Steed.) The Wizard can inflict Con Damage much earlier, with a Cloudkill (And by this level, they can force the adept to remain in the Cloudkill with a Force Cage.
The Tome of Battle classes are not better than the top tier (read: casters). They're just far better balanced against them than the fighter, or, Kord bless them, the monk or paladin--and are competitive in part because their tricks are repeatable, subject to the limits of the action economy--which, especially in the case of the swordsage's full-round recovery is more important than you think.
I am certainly not saying the economy of action is not important, but the manuevers in ToB already have an advantage in the economy of action built right in. The strikes are all part of a normal attack that can be boosted by normal feats (in pathfinder they will still have a pretty good supply of these). Stances are essentially free boosts with no action required unless you want to switch it, and counters do not hit the player in the economy of action. Casters on the other hand often cast buffs, or have to manuever AWAY from the enemy, this reduces their available actions. Tome of Battle classes are more durable as they are designed to be front liners, particularly the warblade and crusader and certainly are not going to retreat or worry about using their powers in combat.
And while the manuevers are not as potent as spells of the same level, they are comparable, they dont provoke attacks of opportunity, they are done by a much more durable character (in AC HP and probably saves as well), and the initiator still gets to attack most of the time. I am not saying that the powers are as varied as spells that would be nonsense, but they are comparable in power (i didnt say equal, just in the same ballpark) and to make them infinately more flexible then an existing caster (because you dont have to worry about using up the one for the right situation due to the recovery methods) is not maintaining game balance.
Understand this, I like tome of battle, I like bringing the martial characters in line with spell casters. I think its a good idea and the variety of ToB can fit just about any flavor. I just think they should still have to manage thier resources like casters do.
Most of a caster's buffs are up well before combat begins, especially at higher levels--as the wizard in my RotRL campaign likes to joke, now that he knows Overland Flight, he will never walk again. (Not to mention, if you're using certain splatbooks, the Cleric has all his buffs Persisted.) They have several spells that are very efficient in the economy of action, or hit their enemies there, and Time Stop is better than anything else at getting an action edge. As for flexibility, they have spells that make whole classes obsolete to put into wands and scrolls. Warblades and Crusaders have a nice variety of tricks, but they're limited in maneuvers known and readied, preventing them from having anywhere near the flexibility of a caster (even <i>if</i> maneuvers had the variety spells do). Swordsages can be very flexible in the maneuvers available to them, but their recovery method is a killer in the action economy, and they're much more fragile than the warbade or crusader.
At any rate, if forcing them to manage resources to the same exent of casters is your goal, you'd have to make maneuvers per day, which would make using them completely unviable for the Crusader or the Warblade, who have too few to bother.
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There are several things about Tome of Battle that makes me want to kick a puppy, most are in relation to how much Wizards blatantly showed it didn't care. There are several maneuvers so badly worded that its not even funny, as well as the fact that they never EVER gave the mechanical definition of a key word. (Here's a hint, its Ally)
Using Tome of Battle as written (RaW) has several flaws, not the least include the fact Firesnake has no listed duration on the snake, but it talks of controlling the snake and moving it around. Since there is no duration except instantaneous, that means it lasts forever.
White Raven Tactics, is broken unless you say you can't be your own ally.
Three words, Iron Heart Surge. One of the most heavily house ruled maneuvers in that book.
These are just what I've noticed in the scant using of the book. I also find the book highly boring and useless to me. I get some people think melee should be able to break the game, simply because magic has been doing it for far longer. I get that they want melee to have its chance in the sun, but that is no excuse to have classes replace other classes. Bad game design begins when instead of trying to FIX a class, you merely decide to make a new class to take its place.
They did this to the Fighter, the Monk, and the Paladin.
If I wanted to play that kind of stuff, I'd play fourth edition as it has that in spades. (In fact, I do usually every Thursday, but not so much in recent times) WOTC also blatantly admitted to using it as a test for fourth, which I find highly irresponsible as they dumped it in the system with no care for what came before. Then, after they dumped it, they refused to clean up their mess by fixing problem things, even going so far as to clarify Iron Heart Surge into being able to disable planar traits.
I'm not kidding.
If you ever wanted to see how much WotC DIDN'T care, take a look at the errata for Tome of Battle some time. It doesn't even cover anything remotely important.
They don't give the definition of Ally because it's a key word that has already been used in several other books. Unfortunately, the existing definition means that by the RAW White Raven Tactics can be used to affect yourself--but this is easily fixed by any sane DM.
As for Firesnake--interesting. I'd never noticed that before, and I've never seen it brought up on any other forum discussing ToB. Nonetheless, it's easy to make it perfectly functional as lasting for a single round. It seems to read as you move the firesnake as if it were a creature capable of moving 60 feet per round, and it affects any square it passes through; the reference to only being able to affect a creature once per round is a poorly worded way of saying that you can't wind it back through the same creature's square to any affect.
And yes, IHS is borked, everyone agrees on that. (Though the people who claim it can put out the Sun are simply deluding themselves.) Congratulations, you found three poorly worded maneuvers out of what's got to be over a hundred. ToB is not without its flaws, but by and large, the mechanics are some of the best in the game.
You are correct that WotC utterly dropped the ball on the ToB errata, though. It is almost literally non-existent, and that is very unfortunate.
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They don't give the definition of Ally because it's a key word that has already been used in several other books. Unfortunately, the existing definition means that by the RAW White Raven Tactics can be used to affect yourself--but this is easily fixed by any sane DM.
As for Firesnake--interesting. I'd never noticed that before, and I've never seen it brought up on any other forum discussing ToB. Nonetheless, it's easy to make it perfectly functional as lasting for a single round. It seems to read as you move the firesnake as if it were a creature capable of moving 60 feet per round, and it affects any square it passes through; the reference to only being able to affect a creature once per round is a poorly worded way of saying that you can't wind it back through the same creature's square to any affect.
And yes, IHS is borked, everyone agrees on that. (Though the people who claim it can put out the Sun are simply deluding themselves.) Congratulations, you found three poorly worded maneuvers out of what's got to be over a hundred. ToB is not without its flaws, but by and large, the mechanics are some of the best in the game.
You are correct that WotC utterly dropped the ball on the ToB errata, though. It is almost literally non-existent, and that is very unfortunate.
No, I found three without trying. These are off the top of my head.
Should I continue about the shadow hand teleportation maneuvers working in an anti-magic aura because they are not supernatural.
Or how about the fact that these are not spells, and therefore ignore the normal rules of line of effect that is a spell rule?
the ability to do it indefinately with no need for resource management is game breaking.
No resource management? Have you ever played a ToB class or are you just talking out your rear? Initiator classes place more importance on resource management than any other class in the game.
They don't give the definition of Ally because it's a key word that has already been used in several other books. Unfortunately, the existing definition means that by the RAW White Raven Tactics can be used to affect yourself--but this is easily fixed by any sane DM.
This is false. You are not your own ally, and never have been. Ally is defined as a relationship between two separate parties.
I like the Crusader, the Swordsage and the Warblade. Some of my players do as well, and they are played in conjunction with Fighters, Paladins and Rangers. We've changed the d12 HD from Warblade to Crusader.
The classes are strong, especially Crusader and Warblade, but not unbearable so. The Fighter usually picks up a stance and a maneuver or two herself which she finds very useful. In fact the party's rogue utilizes the Assassin's Stance with the Shadow Blade feat for great impact, making the Swordblade envious.
If you use the book, allow other classes (esp. the Fighter) to take the Martial Maneuver feat.
As for regaining the Maneuvers, yes, the classes can be eternal warriors and that can be a problem when the Wiz needs to sleep, the Pally is out of smite. One fix could be to have expended Maneuvers only refresh between encounters as for the Martial Maneuver feat.
We've found the Crusader's Maneuver mechanic clunky, especially for me as a DM when a lot of them are NPC antagonists. Having to randomize sifts to much time, so we skipped that mechanic.
In fact, nerfing the standard recovery mechanics are probably not that bad (having the Maneuvers for one encounter only), but the Adapting Style feat can then recharge them for the cost of a full round which is a feat most anyone takes anyway. Perhaps that feat has to go, if consistency is sought after.
Other than that, we like those classes. They make warriors almost able to compete with the Wizard and the Cleric, especially at lower to mid levels.
All you need to make the Crusader's recovery simple to track is a deck of cards with maneuver info on them. Deal yourself a hand equal to your maneuvers granted, draw each turn, and reshuffle and redeal when you have no more cards to draw.
the ability to do it indefinately with no need for resource management is game breaking.No resource management? Have you ever played a ToB class or are you just talking out your rear? Initiator classes place more importance on resource management than any other class in the game.
I have played a sword sage and a warblade. The warblade was with it as written recovery mechanic. The Sword sage was not. With the warblade if i used an ability i wanted back all i had to do was attack something. This made a HUGE difference in long fights. With the sword sage, i had so many manuevers by mid levels i could use one every turn with little regard to worrying about resources. And I could use them without concern becasue I knew that even if i needed one again, it would be back next encounter. The per encounter mechanic is a HUGE advantage over the per day vancian system. So no I am not talking out of my rear.
All you need to make the Crusader's recovery simple to track is a deck of cards with maneuver info on them. Deal yourself a hand equal to your maneuvers granted, draw each turn, and reshuffle and redeal when you have no more cards to draw.
Yes, the player did that, but as a DM having multiple decks for each antagonist Crusader, reshuffling and drawing cards from those stacks wasn't smooth.
I have played a sword sage and a warblade. The warblade was with it as written recovery mechanic. The Sword sage was not. With the warblade if i used an ability i wanted back all i had to do was attack something. This made a HUGE difference in long fights. With the sword sage, i had so many manuevers by mid levels i could use one every turn with little regard to worrying about resources. And I could use them without concern becasue I knew that even if i needed one again, it would be back next encounter. The per encounter mechanic is a HUGE advantage over the per day vancian system. So no I am not talking out of my rear.the ability to do it indefinately with no need for resource management is game breaking.No resource management? Have you ever played a ToB class or are you just talking out your rear? Initiator classes place more importance on resource management than any other class in the game.
Warblades in particular are by far the most resource management intensive class in the entire game. A level 6 Warblade knows 6 "spells" total and can only "memorize" 4 of them. Those 4 "spells" have to cover ALL of a Warblade's offensive and defensive needs, which means you have to choose both your "spells known" and "spells memorized" extremely carefully. You also have a huge opportunity cost to using maneuvers because you cannot under any circumstances (barring the 1/day recovery feat) use the same maneuver two rounds in a row. That means you have to decide every round whether you need to use each maneuver now or if it would be better to wait; this is even more obvious on defensive maneuvers.
A level 6 Swordsage knows 11 "spells" and can "memorize" 6 of them, and he's boned if he needs to use any of the ones he "memorized" more than once in an encounter.
In comparison, a level 6 sorcerer knows 14 spells and can cast any of them at any time, 7 of them infinitely round after round.
Frankly, any claim that Martial Adepts are free from resource management are just plain ignorant at best, and intentional falsehood at worst.
Warblades in particular are by far the most resource management intensive class in the entire game. A level 6 Warblade knows 6 "spells" total and can only "memorize" 4 of them. Those 4 "spells" have to cover ALL of a Warblade's offensive and defensive needs, which means you have to choose both your "spells known" and "spells memorized" extremely carefully. You also have a huge opportunity cost to using maneuvers because you cannot under any circumstances (barring the 1/day recovery feat) use the same maneuver two rounds in a row. That means you have to decide every round whether you need to use each maneuver now or if it would be better to wait; this is even more obvious on defensive maneuvers.
A level 6 Swordsage knows 11 "spells" and can "memorize" 6 of them, and he's boned if he needs to use any of the ones he "memorized" more than once in an encounter.
In comparison, a level 6 sorcerer knows 14 spells and can cast any of them at any time, 7 of them infinitely round after round.
Frankly, any claim that Martial Adepts are free from resource management are just plain ignorant at best, and intentional falsehood at worst.
Calling me ignorant does not make your opinion fact. A warblade as written can make an attack, and get ALL HIS RESOURCES BACK. This is free of resource management. You dont even lose a turn, you still get to attack. Dont worry about blowing all your resources, you can get them back. That means i dont have to manage them. I am not talking about tracking resources, I am talking about having to consider their use, as casters do in a vancian system.
And even without the recovery method, that level 6 Warblade can use those 4 spells in every encounter. If you have 20 encounters he can use them in each one. In a normal 4 encounter day that is 12 spells. Add to that the martial prowess of the warblade (BAB HD, armor, etc) and you have a good class without the recovery method. And he can shift those 4 'spells' more easily then a wizard can.
That Sword sage has those 6 of them in every fight, totaling up to 24 in a 4 encounter day. Way more then a sorcerer despite having a wide array of powers known like a wizard.
And unlike the sorceror and the wizard, who when they run out, are down to pulling out Mr Crossbow, in the event they run out of manuevers they are still halfway descent martial characters. And if there is another fight, not to worry, they will have a whole new set of powers.
As for the warblade having to fit all his offensive and defensive capabilities into those 6 powers. Um really? Last i checked, he can wear armor, has a good bab, and can use weapons well. You know what that is? Part of his offense and defense. So no unlike a wizard or sorcerer every bit of the character is not crammed into the manuevers, there is more to the class, that is just the best part.
So yeah, just because you like a class doesnt mean someone is being ignorant for criticizing some aspect of it. With a recovery method there is zero reason for a ToB class to conserve their powers at all, they might as well use their best stuff right away, they can just get it back, and already have it reset every fight. That is pretty much the definition of not having to manage resources.
A warblade as written can make an attack, and get ALL HIS RESOURCES BACK.
Only if he has a swift action available (meaning he hasn't used an immediate action ie defensive maneuver in the previous round, or activated/switched stances) and only if he hasn't and does not use a maneuver that round.
Dont worry about blowing all your resources, you can get them back. That means i dont have to manage them. I am not talking about tracking resources, I am talking about having to consider their use, as casters do in a vancian system.
This is false. Let's consider a Warblade with Moment of Perfect Mind readied. He's facing a spellcaster. Said spellcaster casts a spell and forces the Warblade to make a Will save. Does the Warblade use MoPM now? What if the spell was a red herring and a worse Will save will occur in the next round? After all, if he uses MoPM, he cannot recover his maneuvers next round, which means he's vulnerable. Or, how about a Warblade with Iron Heart Surge (working as intended rather than the poorly edited version in the book); he's fighting a medusa sorceress who manages to land a stinking cloud on him and he fails the save. He's now nauseated, but if he blows Iron Heart Surge on the nauseated condition, the Medusa can turn him to stone before he has the chance to recover.
That is the very definition of resource management.
And even without the recovery method, that level 6 Warblade can use those 4 spells in every encounter. If you have 20 encounters he can use them in each one.
I won't hold my breath for a 20 encounter day. Saying "it's powerful in circumstances that are impossible to re-create in an actual game!" is not an argument, it's a logical fallacy.
In a normal 4 encounter day that is 12 spells.
Yes, and the level 6 Sorcerer has a bare, rock-bottom minimum of 15 spells, with 7 choices to the Warblade's 4. What's your point?
As for the warblade having to fit all his offensive and defensive capabilities into those 6 powers. Um really? Last i checked, he can wear armor, has a good bab, and can use weapons well. You know what that is? Part of his offense and defense. So no unlike a wizard or sorcerer every bit of the character is not crammed into the manuevers, there is more to the class, that is just the best part.
As anyone who's ever played a Marshal or Dragon Shaman can tell you, having good weapons and armor means jack-all. If all you can do is use a normal attack, with no bonuses and no special effects, you're not likely to contribute meaningfully to the combat with those attacks.
Also, you're clearly not talking Pathfinder here, because in Pathfinder neither Wizards nor Sorcerers are entirely dependent on their spells. So please, get with the picture; this is a Pathfinder thread in a Pathfinder section of the boards.
That Sword sage has those 6 of them in every fight, totaling up to 24 in a 4 encounter day. Way more then a sorcerer despite having a wide array of powers known like a wizard.
A wide array like a Wizard? Are you on something? Wizards have infinite spells known. A level 6 Swordsages knows -- wait for it -- 11. 11 is significantly smaller than infinity. Even the Sorcerer knows more spells than the Swordsage does, at every level (except level 1-3, where the two classes are even).
It's less that Fighter-only feats suck, IMO, and more that only Fighters have enough feats to really dive into the Fighter-only feats.
Anyway, the reason Warblades have access to those feats is that they were envisioned as a total replacement for Fighters, just as Crusaders were to replace Paladins and Swordsages were to replace Monks. In a game with both Fighters and Warblades, there's no harm in dropping the Fighter-only feats from the Warblade; Warblades don't have enough feats to take many of them anyway.
It's also controversial because the editors did a horrible job. I can forgive the erroneous stat blocks (although I laugh at the Swordsage focused on ranged weapons ... when there's only like three maneuvers in the whole book that work with them) because every stat block WotC ever printed in a rulebook had at least one error. All the OTHER editing mistakes are just beyond the pale, and they're piled up thick.
Not to mention: Tome of Battle does have many things inspired by anime and wuxia. It's useless to deny that the connection exists, since its admitted in the introduction. (And really, what's wrong with getting some Eastern flavor into your Western fantasy, when it comes to that? I rarely saw as much complaint that the Monk was 'too anime' despite obviously coming from the same roots.) But it's just as easy to take the material in Tome of Battle and build a relatively 'mundane' Western style action hero.
Beowulf wrestled giant monsters to death with his bare hands, and swam an ocean in full armor to engage in a duel on the other side. Batman's skill, tactics, and discipline allow him to compete with beings of immense supernatural power. Conan shrugs off foul sorceries with a cry of rage, crushing the thrones of the world beneath his sandaled feet with not but his sword, his strength, and his wits. Fantasy and pop culture abounds with characters who accomplish nigh-superhuman feats by means of skill, discipline, and determination.
My game has had two warblades in it and neither broke the game.
Neither had house rules wither.
Now with the switch from 3.5 to Pathfinder these characters have had a bit of conversion work.
Here is what I done:
Weapon Aptitude is removed. Replaced with Fighter Aptitude
Fighter Aptitude = you are considered a fighter of 3 levels less for the purposes of fighter only feats, bravery, weapon and armor training.
Manuevers are usable once per encounter.
All manuevers reviewed to determine intended effect when used. Poor wording ignored.
Iron Heart Surge: To me the intent was to will or physicaly power yourself out of an effect or condition while in combat.
So I have ruled on things as follows:
Hold Person & Paralysis: yes it works
Web: yes it works, but the web does not go away.
You break free of it not dispel it.
Antimagic Field: No, it does not affect you, it does effect your stuff.
Staggered: yes
Starvation: No - go get a sandwhich
Suffocation: Yes,temporarily as I allow the use to reset your time without air back to the first round for purposes of figuring the DC needed to stay conscious.
Anyways the one use per combat makes most maneuvers reasonable.
Thanx!
Hawk
Kolokotroni wrote:
A warblade as written can make an attack, and get ALL HIS RESOURCES BACK.Only if he has a swift action available (meaning he hasn't used an immediate action ie defensive maneuver in the previous round, or activated/switched stances) and only if he hasn't and does not use a maneuver that round.
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Dont worry about blowing all your resources, you can get them back. That means i dont have to manage them. I am not talking about tracking resources, I am talking about having to consider their use, as casters do in a vancian system.This is false. Let's consider a Warblade with Moment of Perfect Mind readied. He's facing a spellcaster. Said spellcaster casts a spell and forces the Warblade to make a Will save. Does the Warblade use MoPM now? What if the spell was a red herring and a worse Will save will occur in the next round? After all, if he uses MoPM, he cannot recover his maneuvers next round, which means he's vulnerable. Or, how about a Warblade with Iron Heart Surge (working as intended rather than the poorly edited version in the book); he's fighting a medusa sorceress who manages to land a stinking cloud on him and he fails the save. He's now nauseated, but if he blows Iron Heart Surge on the nauseated condition, the Medusa can turn him to stone before he has the chance to recover.
That is the very definition of resource management.
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And even without the recovery method, that level 6 Warblade can use those 4 spells in every encounter. If you have 20 encounters he can use them in each one.I won't hold my breath for a 20 encounter day. Saying "it's powerful in circumstances that are impossible to re-create in an actual game!" is not an argument, it's a logical fallacy.
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In a normal 4 encounter day that is 12 spells.Yes, and the level 6 Sorcerer has a bare, rock-bottom minimum of 15 spells, with 7 choices to the Warblade's 4. What's your point?
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As for the warblade having to fit all his offensive and defensive capabilities into those 6 powers. Um really? Last i checked, he can wear armor, has a good bab, and can use weapons well. You know what that is? Part of his offense and defense. So no unlike a wizard or sorcerer every bit of the character is not crammed into the manuevers, there is more to the class, that is just the best part.As anyone who's ever played a Marshal or Dragon Shaman can tell you, having good weapons and armor means jack-all. If all you can do is use a normal attack, with no bonuses and no special effects, you're not likely to contribute meaningfully to the combat with those attacks.
Also, you're clearly not talking Pathfinder here, because in Pathfinder neither Wizards nor Sorcerers are entirely dependent on their spells. So please, get with the picture; this is a Pathfinder thread in a Pathfinder section of the boards.
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That Sword sage has those 6 of them in every fight, totaling up to 24 in a 4 encounter day. Way more then a sorcerer despite having a wide array of powers known like a wizard.A wide array like a Wizard? Are you on something? Wizards have infinite spells known. A level 6 Swordsages knows -- wait for it -- 11. 11 is significantly smaller than infinity. Even the Sorcerer knows more spells than the Swordsage does, at every level (except level 1-3, where the two classes are even).
Ok First, there is nothing that prevents you from using a swift and immediate action in the same turn. I dont know where you are getting that from. Unless I have missed something big in the rules, though you can only take a single swift action, an immediate action in no way interferes with this.
So the warblade worried about perfect mind can use it against that first spell, and then on his turn attack the wizard, once again having perfect mind available before the wizard can cast another spell. I will admit I do not have tome of battle in front of me right now. But my understanding is that After the attack he can once again have perfect mind readied. I will check when I get home as to the actual RaW. And when I say resource management, I am not talking about timing. Obviously anyone with any kind of limited use ability has to worry about using it at the perfect moment. I am talking about having to manage the number of resources he has. A paladins smite for instance, or a sorcerors spells, eventually he runs out. And while obviously a 20 fight day is hyperbole, a 5 fight day is not, and i have seen 6 fight days, have you? That is a significant advantage over casters (long days are their biggest weakness).
And yes, I have seen a marshal, just having a sword and armor is not enough. I am well aware of this. However, if you have other potent offense (manuevers), and have to use just a sword armor and normal feats SOME of the time, you know what that is called? A Paladin. A paladin has his smite and his divine bond, and they are awesome. But when he is not using those, he is a warrior with some healing.
And while pathfinder gave the sorceror and the wizard some actual class features, they are still a minute portion of thier abilities. The wizard basically got something that is probably less powerful then a sword an power attack and usable only a limited number of times per day, and a the equivalent of another single spell (things like elemental wall for instance). The sorceror got more, but still none of the class abilities are superior to a sword and armor, because on their own, without spells they are substandard, but at least they are something.
And even considering that, the whole point I am trying to make, is when a sorceror or wizard runs out of spells, they are out for the day. If they have to nova in the second fight to save the party thats it, they are done for the day. Welcome to commoner town. Maybe i have a few rounds of a claw attack, or a acid dart that does 1d6+3 damage. Its slightly better then my crossbow, but not by some huge amount. If a warblade runs out, he is a warrior for a few rounds (even if he doesnt recover his powers), then next fight, boom back to warblade which is superior to the Paladin's smite for instance, who also has the couple rounds of warrior problem. The per encounter makes a huge difference in longevity, which is the biggest problem casters have. So compared to casters, they do have to worry less about resource management.
Ok First, there is nothing that prevents you from using a swift and immediate action in the same turn. I dont know where you are getting that from. Unless I have missed something big in the rules, though you can only take a single swift action, an immediate action in no way interferes with this.
Yes, actually, there is something that prevents this. Read the text of immediate actions. Using an immediate action takes up your swift action on your next turn.
And when I say resource management, I am not talking about timing. Obviously anyone with any kind of limited use ability has to worry about using it at the perfect moment. I am talking about having to manage the number of resources he has.
Then you aren't talking about resource management. You're talking about one single aspect of resource management.
And while pathfinder gave the sorceror and the wizard some actual class features, they are still a minute portion of thier abilities.
And this isn't true for Martial Adepts? Aside from maneuvers, what do they get?
Crusaders get a delayed damage pool, furious counterstrike, one third of a Paladin's save bonus, 1/day save reroll, 2/day single-hit Smite, and Mettle.
Swordsages get extra Initiative, Wis to AC, and a free Weapon Focus (if they take a weapon that's a favored school weapon).
Warblades get +Int to a handful of situations, the ability to access Fighter feats at a delayed progression, and a few bonus feats from a lousy list.
However, if you have other potent offense (manuevers), and have to use just a sword armor and normal feats SOME of the time, you know what that is called? A Paladin. A paladin has his smite and his divine bond, and they are awesome. But when he is not using those, he is a warrior with some healing.
Completely ignoring the fact that Paladins have spells in addition to mega-Smite Evil...
boom back to warblade which is superior to the Paladin's smite for instance
Bullshit. Maneuvers are balanced to be slightly better than a full attack on average. Smite is balanced to be dramatically better than a full attack, because it IS a full attack with mega-bonuses.
Kolokotroni wrote:
Ok First, there is nothing that prevents you from using a swift and immediate action in the same turn. I dont know where you are getting that from. Unless I have missed something big in the rules, though you can only take a single swift action, an immediate action in no way interferes with this.Yes, actually, there is something that prevents this. Read the text of immediate actions. Using an immediate action takes up your swift action on your next turn.
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And when I say resource management, I am not talking about timing. Obviously anyone with any kind of limited use ability has to worry about using it at the perfect moment. I am talking about having to manage the number of resources he has.Then you aren't talking about resource management. You're talking about one single aspect of resource management.
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And while pathfinder gave the sorceror and the wizard some actual class features, they are still a minute portion of thier abilities.And this isn't true for Martial Adepts? Aside from maneuvers, what do they get?
Crusaders get a delayed damage pool, furious counterstrike, one third of a Paladin's save bonus, 1/day save reroll, 2/day single-hit Smite, and Mettle.
Swordsages get extra Initiative, Wis to AC, and a free Weapon Focus (if they take a weapon that's a favored school weapon).
Warblades get +Int to a handful of situations, the ability to access Fighter feats at a delayed progression, and a few bonus feats from a lousy list.Quote:
However, if you have other potent offense (manuevers), and have to use just a sword armor and normal feats SOME of the time, you know what that is called? A Paladin. A paladin has his smite and his divine bond, and they are awesome. But when he is not using those, he is a warrior with some healing.Completely ignoring the fact that Paladins have spells in addition to mega-Smite Evil...
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boom back to warblade which is superior to the Paladin's smite for instanceb&@#@&%&. Maneuvers are balanced to be slightly better than a full attack on average. Smite is balanced to be dramatically better than a full attack, because it IS a full attack with mega-bonuses.
You are right about the immediate actions, I did indeed miss it. Definately a case of edition overlap (i play star wars saga edition as well where I believe this doesnt cause a problem RaW) and I dont think I would ever make an immediate action eat a swift action too, but that is a house rule and obviously doenst apply. You a rigth there. However, the thing I admit I am confused about is, does a warblade need a swift action to get his manuevers back? I thought he needs to take a standard action to either attack or make a flourish of some sort and his manuevers are returned. Again I dont have the book in front of me, so I will have a look when I get home, it is certainly possible I have been in error there.
And we definately had a disconnect on what we meant. I am sorry I should have been more clear, but yes, concern with recovering manuevers was in longevity, not the choice of when to use a specific resource.
In terms of the paladin, my point was simply that once his bit tools are used for the day (smite, divine bond, and spells) he too is just a warrior for a few rounds. Smite is more powerful then damage dealing manueuvers certainly, but he can only use that smite against a limited number of enemies. So again, clearly you and I have a different value of the Per Encounter vs Per Day mechanics. I think the Per Encounter mechanic provides a very large advantage over other classes which simply dont have it.
In terms of manuevers being balanced to be slightly better then a full attack, maybe in terms of damage, but how do you compare a full attack to a status effect? Or the ability to fly? Or the ability to self fireball (desert wind 9th level power). But anyway. I am not saying a manuever is better then smite. Please look at my words in context. I am saying that the fact that a warblades powers Come back in the next fight, is far superior to per day mechanics, that when expended are simply gone for that day. A paladin once he has smited twice a level 6, does not have smite anymore. That warblade still has all 4 manuevers every fight. It is better in that sense, not in a direct comparison. I aplogize for not being clearer on that.
The "But you get all your maneuvers in every encounter no matter how many there are!" complaint is just a thinly veiled fallacy. If the rest of the party is tapped out and the Warblade is raring to go, guess how likely the party is to go out looking for another fight?
It's a comparative advantage that will very rarely show up in actual play because parties do not continue to adventure when their spellcasters are bone-dry, ever. That makes it ... not an advantage.
The "But you get all your maneuvers in every encounter no matter how many there are!" complaint is just a thinly veiled fallacy. If the rest of the party is tapped out and the Warblade is raring to go, guess how likely the party is to go out looking for another fight?
It's a comparative advantage that will very rarely show up in actual play because parties do not continue to adventure when their spellcasters are bone-dry, ever. That makes it ... not an advantage.
But the point is, all those other party members must concerve resources based on that. The warblade does not. And while some dms allow parties to stop after 1 fight if they are burnt out, others do not, and the system itself was meant for a 4 fight day, and that is what you have to approach when looking at a class. I have had many occassions as a paladin when i was all out of lay on hands and smites for the day, and we continued on (this is pre-pathfinder so no divine bond). And even more so as a caster when i just had a few low level spells left but resting was as yet not an option. So it does come up in games i have played. And it certainly comes up in alot of the published adventures ive seen that tend to impart as much urgency as possible.