I am just curious if anyone has ever done a convert of the 3.5 class, Swordsage? It is one of my PCs favorite classes and I am looking for info for him. Any advice or recommendations are also welcome.
I'm currently playing a swordsage in Shackled City. We're up to fourth level (although I AM a Thri-kreen, so technically I'm a second level swordsage) but I've encountered no problems so far, so I would agree with the previous poster in that it needs no changes to be compatible with Pathfinder.
Honestly I think all of the Tome of Battle classes are powerful enough on their own to hang with the Pathfinder classes. I've played a swordsage and a warblade while my roommate played a crusader, and they have always been among the hardest-hitting members of the party.
The only major changes needed to any of the Tome of Battle material is to consolidate the skill lists, as appropriate to the new Pathfinder skills. Also, you'll need to alter the key skillss for some of the disciplines.
Diamond Mind can no longer be keyed to Concentration, since that skill doesn't exist in Pathfinder. Perception would be an appropriate substitute, since most maneuvers using Diamond Mind's key skill involve striking just the right spot, or anticipating an attack or effect.
Also, under the consolidation, Desert Wind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw all get tied to Acrobatics, since that subsumes Tumble, Balance, and Jump. Then again, of those four, only Desert Wind and Tiger Claw have maneuvers directly affected by their key skills, so this is more of a fluff issue than anything else.
That all sounds good, and we did do some skill conversion but what about how with Pathfinder classes all the class levels are "supposed" to gain something each level? I think the class seems plenty powerful as it is, but I just want to be fair. This is out first Pathfinder campaign, and everyone else is using a new Base Class while he is the only one with 3.5 class.
Lastly, I believe the Swordsage Class is from the Book of Nine, not Tome of Magic so are we even talking about about the same class? I think there might be a Sword-Mage class somewhere as well.
Thanks for the current input!
The full title of the book the Swordsage appears in is The Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, to that might clear up some confusion.
While Pathfinder does clear up dead levels for the base classes, if you read the conversion guide, you aren't required by any means to grant new dead level abilities to any class.
That having been said, as with casters, the levels at which martial adept gains a new level of maneuvers isn't really a dead level, and the Swordsage only has seven dead levels, some of which correspond with levels at which they gain new levels of maneuvers (though I didn't sit down and see exactly how they match up). In other words, they really don't have that many dead levels to fill one way or another, and probably don't suffer if you don't modify those levels.
Well, there's a huge problem with Tome of Battle in Pathfinder.
Some disciplines have Key skills that no longer exist in Pathfinder and I don't have any idea on what substitutes would work?
---Diamond Mind has Concentration as a key skill
---Desert Wind has Tumble as a key skill
---Iron Heart and Stone Dragon has Balance
---Tiger Claw has Jump
Ok, so I guess change it to 4 disciplines have Acrobatics as a key skill, it seems. (real odd but whatever)
That leaves just Diamond Mind kinda screwed over. I can't think of any other skill to replace Concentration with.
There isn't really a "right" answer, but the GM can pick from several options pretty easily.
1. Concentration check works just like casters, with it being a level check +ability mod that the GM thinks is appropriate.
2. Martial Lore subs in for concentration, showing the initiators understanding of maneuvers as being important.
3. Perception takes over, measuring the character's awareness of his surroundings to pull of his moves.
4. Rope in autohypnosis from the psionics book to stand in for concentration, especially since it has more useful, and "willpower" based uses than concentration had.
Any one should work, but it would be up to the GM to decide what to implement.
Whatever you do, do not use the level check+ability modifier to replace Concentration in Diamond Mind maneuvers. That would be a very severe nerf, as the whole point of most of those maneuvers is to substitute a skill check for another roll.
I'd reccoemend perception in place of concentration.
maybe beef up the utility of martial lore.
all it does is tell you, "That 12 year old girl in the black Gi is really a swordsage, her specialty is shadow hand." and only when she throws a Cero (i mean shadow garrotte) or enters assasins stance, which has different forms for different swordsages.
In my opinion all of the ToB:Bo9S classes are way overpowered, even compared to Pathfinder revised Core classes. We tried a Swordsage in our current Pathfinder game and we needed to trim it down as it was far superior to any of the other classes. Even at the lower levels the class is a gish in feel, plenty of std melee power, plus so many abilities that feel like spells (and are available in every encounter) that it was way overbalance. Having only Rogue BAB at 3rd level seemed like a minor inconvenience when you have free weapon focus, and can "cast" a 3d6 burning hands, that is a 30' cone instead of the sorcerer's paltry 15' version, in every encounter. Not to mention all your other "strikes" do an extra 1d6 fire damage as well which basically gives you a free flaming weapon for several rounds in every encounter...scary.
As always, ymmv.
We tried a Swordsage in our current Pathfinder game and we needed to trim it down as it was far superior to any of the other classes.
Except the wizard, cleric, and druid, I imagine, once you get up past 5th level or so... The whole point of the warblade, for example, was to replace the fighter with a class that could actually hold his own with the casters above mid level. The swordsage was a monk replacement, and the crusader a paladin replacement.
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We tried a Swordsage in our current Pathfinder game and we needed to trim it down as it was far superior to any of the other classes.Except the wizard, cleric, and druid, I imagine, once you get up past 5th level or so... The whole point of the warblade, for example, was to replace the fighter with a class that could actually hold his own with the casters above mid level. The swordsage was a monk replacement, and the crusader a paladin replacement.
heh.
I read this, and resisted posting because I knew someone else would show up here.
We got to 9th level before tossing the swordsage. None of the casters were anywhere near as powerful. The swordsage had far more abilities that were seldom avoidable since Spell resistance has no effect on them and most are extremely targettable thus avoiding friendly fire issues.
Druids, Clerics, and Wizards must choose their spells beforehand and can often be caught without the best spell for a given situation. Sorcerers have far fewer spells at their disposal so are far less versatile in general.
I've been playing for almost 30 years now and I have never bought the whole Casters are so much more powerful than non casters. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses. Most casters can be eliminated or neutralized fairly easily by an intelligent opponent. True they are flashier and require more sophistication to play, but a well played fighter is a whirling tank of death dealing whose best attacks are available to him every single round. Mid level casters are one Black Tentacles, or other successful grapple, away from being completely worthless, and that's just one thing out of many.
We got to 9th level before tossing the swordsage. None of the casters were anywhere near as powerful. The swordsage had far more abilities that were seldom avoidable since Spell resistance has no effect on them and most are extremely targettable thus avoiding friendly fire issues.
Druids, Clerics, and Wizards must choose their spells beforehand and can often be caught without the best spell for a given situation. Sorcerers have far fewer spells at their disposal so are far less versatile in general.
I've been playing for almost 30 years now and I have never bought the whole Casters are so much more powerful than non casters. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses. Most casters can be eliminated or neutralized fairly easily by an intelligent opponent. True they are flashier and require more sophistication to play, but a well played fighter is a whirling tank of death dealing whose best attacks are available to him every single round. Mid level casters are one Black Tentacles, or other successful grapple, away from being completely worthless, and that's just one thing out of many.
See, and we've had the opposite experience. Several Crusaders and Warblades have been played in our campaigns and not only are they not overpowered, some Fighters and Barbarians, especially from Pathfinder, outclass them in many ways. I like them for the fluff and the the fact they do seem to bring parity with the spellcasters. Not just for damage potential, but for variety of things they can do, giving them the same versatility.
I've been playing for almost 30 years now and I have never bought the whole Casters are so much more powerful than non casters.
They haven't been for 30 years, only since 3.0. As a 30-year veteran myself, I'm keenly aware of that fact.
That's so odd. I'd love the chance to play in one of those groups that has had the opposite experience from all of mine, just so I could see why that was the case. I've played in 11 states from MD to FL to CO to CA and every campaign has been fairly similar in terms of class power ratios. I've seen a lot of tournaments that were heavily skewed to favor one group of classes over another, but most of those also felt flawed or artificial.
In one of our current groups a Whirling Steel Monk (from Eberron) rules the roost. He deals out as much or more damage as anyone and is so resistant to being neutralized that it is scary. With +12 on his worst save, Improved Evasion, Immunity to Disease and Poison, 5 attacks at +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 with his +2 Shock Longsword, and a lowly 25 AC unbuffed... In short at 11th level, he has a whale of a punch and is hard to put down or slow down. When the bard is playing and he power attacks...Yikes!
I've been playing for almost 30 years now and I have never bought the whole Casters are so much more powerful than non casters.They haven't been for 30 years, only since 3.0. As a 30-year veteran myself, I'm keenly aware of that fact.
Lol, actually in AD&D and 2nd edition I think it was often unbalanced at low levels since Sleep had no save. Any non-elven character under 4th level was instantly dead vs a lvl 1 mage.
When talking about wizards and clerics, I find there are two schools of thoughts which will never meet, even in a 5-ft passageway coming towards each other. They are the "full spell-casters control everything and win" group and the more liberal "spell-casters don't have to win" crowd. Chalk and cheese, methinks.
I'd suggest letting the Swordsage use his initiator level in place of his BAB when qualifying for combat feats and removing the ability to recover expended maneuvers in combat.
Might want to toss in a few extra feats (perhaps based on his discipline focus?) as well, as the Swordsage is extremely feat starved.
On the issue of Swordsages outblasting the arcanists; Hatchling's Flame (I guess this was what you were referring to) deals 2d6 damage and doesn't scale in damage (no maneuvers do). I really don't think an 30' CAoE dealing 3 damage on average once per encounter is an issue, especially not after level 3 (the level it is available).
I'd suggest letting the Swordsage use his initiator level in place of his BAB when qualifying for combat feats and removing the ability to recover expended maneuvers in combat.
Might want to toss in a few extra feats (perhaps based on his discipline focus?) as well, as the Swordsage is extremely feat starved.
On the issue of Swordsages outblasting the arcanists; Hatchling's Flame (I guess this was what you were referring to) deals 2d6 damage and doesn't scale in damage (no maneuvers do). I really don't think an 30' CAoE dealing 3 damage on average once per encounter is an issue, especially not after level 3 (the level it is available).
That's the right maneuver, and there is a scaled version of it you can replace it with as you go up in levels (Dragon's Flame, Wyrm's Flame). Also the feat Desert Fire (I think) adds 1d6 to all Desert Wind strikes if you move 10' and all of the cone fire attacks like Hatchling's Flame are strikes.
We ran a swordsage in a pathfinder campaign at level 9-12 before the guy playing swapped out, and with a minor change (we simply kept concentration as a skill in his case to make things easier, but treated his special attacks as magic for SR) he worked out quite well. He was still one of the hardest hitting in the party (barbarian, wizard, cleric, and monk) and seemed fairly balanced. Bypassing SR isn't a big deal in most 4.5 games, but SR is a bigger deal with pathfinder. With the extra feats you get in a pathfinder game taking spell penentration is a simple no brainer if you wish to hit a bit harder, although the player in question didn't have that feat and in multiple battles only failed the roll a few times.
..replace it with as you go up in levels (Dragon's Flame, Wyrm's Flame). Also the feat Desert Fire (I think) adds 1d6 to all Desert Wind strikes if you move 10' and all of the cone fire attacks like Hatchling's Flame are strikes.
Ah, beg your pardon then; didn't have the book with me at the time writing that post. Never been a fan of Desert Wind, though (emulates magic a tad too much for my taste).
I guess the real issue lies in Hatchling's Flame's higher level siblings. Perhaps raising the required number of Desert Wind manevuers so that having (for example) Wyrm's Flame and Diamond Nightmare Blade (quadruple damage on attack with a successful Conc v AC check) becomes impossible, or at least nearly so?Desert Fire does sound a bit over the top when used in conjunction with the CAoE abilities. Limit the damage to only be applicable to one target per round perhaps? That way it's similar to the Skirmish ability, but for Desert Wind strikes.
Addendum: as for advice/recommendations, my favourite character in 3.5 was an Elven Swordsage wielding a Thinblade (Curved Blade in Pathfinder) with Weapon Finesse. Concentrating on Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand disciplines, with a splash of Setting Sun and Tiger Claw.
Some strikes from the Diamond Mind discipline makes your target flat-footed for that attack and work well with Assassin's Stance from Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind also has excellent counters/strikes replacing normal checks/saves with Concentration checks. Shadow Hand brings means of getting away/moving around the battlefield with the Shadow Jaunt/Invisibility maneuvers. Setting Sun adds some great Counters/Stances and the strikes (and Blood in the Water, depending on how long you expect the fight to be) from Tiger Claw benefit greatly from your Thinblade's high crit-range.
I like others think the tome of battle classes dont need much beyond the consolidation of skills and the adjustment of key skills for schools that have been removed or consolidated. In my experience with the classes they have not been overpowered compared to casting classes in 3.5. I havent seen them used in pathfinder yet so I cannot attest to that.
So, ok this maybe is somewhat off-topic, but since there isn't currently a thread directly on it, can I ask a couple of questions of this audience regarding finding Casters overpowered and TOB classes not overpowered?
1. How many Encounters do you usually have before resting/recovering spells and how often do your groups find yourselves unable to rest/recover spells when the casters think they need to?
2. How often do you see spells either fail due to failed Defensive Casting rolls or be interrupted by damaging attacks?
3. How do Fighters, et al in your campaigns keep up with someone who can do 9d6+20 every other round while still doing 5d6+20 on the alternating rounds?
#3 comes from a 9th level warblade initiating Elder Mountain Hammer every other round while using Vital Strike as his recovery melee attack on alternating rounds, using a 2hdd sword with Power Attack and in the Iron Heart Punishing Stance.
So, ok this maybe is somewhat off-topic, but since there isn't currently a thread directly on it, can I ask a couple of questions of this audience regarding finding Casters overpowered and TOB classes not overpowered?
1. How many Encounters do you usually have before resting/recovering spells and how often do your groups find yourselves unable to rest/recover spells when the casters think they need to?
2. How often do you see spells either fail due to failed Defensive Casting rolls or be interrupted by damaging attacks?
3. How do Fighters, et al in your campaigns keep up with someone who can do 9d6+20 every other round while still doing 5d6+20 on the alternating rounds?
#3 comes from a 9th level warblade initiating Elder Mountain Hammer every other round while using Vital Strike as his recovery melee attack on alternating rounds, using a 2hdd sword with Power Attack and in the Iron Heart Punishing Stance.
1. As DM, you can throw a lot of encounters if you use mobile enemies, but there comes a point when you're artificially giving all the bad guys spidey-sense and discern location, just to keep them coming. High-level casters can wind walk past waste-of-time encounters and plane shift to slow-time planes for recovery time when needed. Failing to keep these abilities in mind is to let them set the number of encounters.
2. Never, until I changed the rules. Staying out of melee is simple. Casting defensively in 3.5 was trivially easy -- in PF, it's much harder for low-level casters, but even easier for high-level ones.
3. Fighters can't; the Warblade was intended to replace the fighter, not supplement it. In my campaigns, I've rewritten all the warrior classes, so that's no longer an issue.
So, ok this maybe is somewhat off-topic, but since there isn't currently a thread directly on it, can I ask a couple of questions of this audience regarding finding Casters overpowered and TOB classes not overpowered?
1. How many Encounters do you usually have before resting/recovering spells and how often do your groups find yourselves unable to rest/recover spells when the casters think they need to?
2. How often do you see spells either fail due to failed Defensive Casting rolls or be interrupted by damaging attacks?
3. How do Fighters, et al in your campaigns keep up with someone who can do 9d6+20 every other round while still doing 5d6+20 on the alternating rounds?
#3 comes from a 9th level warblade initiating Elder Mountain Hammer every other round while using Vital Strike as his recovery melee attack on alternating rounds, using a 2hdd sword with Power Attack and in the Iron Heart Punishing Stance.
1. In my group usually 3-4, sometimes less depending on the DM. One of our dms often has single or two encounter days for story reasons. It is also rare we are not able to rest when we need to. I can probably count on one hand the number of times it's happened within the last year of gaming.
2. Almost never in my group, i cant remember the last time it happened. And not because casters arent targeted, its just our casters work hard to avoid this.
3. In one level 10 game the fighters are churning out 60-80 damage, the 2 weapon fighting fighter rogue is puting out over a hundred damage at least once or twice a fight (all with full attacks mind you). So they are keeping up rather well. The warblade is ofcourse superior if they cant full attack, but that was the design intent of the ToB classes.
Ok...so now thngs are starting to become clearer maybe...
So you must never have adventures where you have to invade an enemy stronghold ala Return to Temple of Elemental Evil because resting to recover spells in that sort of situation isn't happening after only 3-4 encounters unless the party leaves at which point they will find their return much more hotly contested than before if not nigh impossible.
I'd definitely agree that if you aren't facing more than 3 or 4 encounters then lack of spells will never be an issue. That almost never happens in any of the campaigns I've been in. You often have far more fights than that unless travelling, and spellcasters must be careful of using their best spells too soon lest they find themselves lacking when it is most needed.
So do enemy spellcasters also not get disrupted? From what I've seen, we regularly disrupt enemy spellcasters and have to spend considerable effort to keep our own casters from suffering a similar fate. In 3.5 it was often too easy to 5 ft step back, but Step up and other feats help there immensely. As does an archer or spellcaster readying an action to nail a caster should they start to cast.
60-80 dmg at 10th level? So by my figuring a 10th level fighter using power attack with a 2hdd sword is going to be doing about 2d6+24 with 22 str and +2 sword, so even if he hits with both attacks that's only 58 pts on average. If he's using two weapons he can get out 4 attacks, but the bonus dmg is much lower say 1d8+18 and 1d6+15 using longsword +2/Shortsword +2 with power attack, double slice, weapon spec on both, 22 str, etc... so even if all 4 reduced attack bonus attacks hit (which is highly unlikely), that's about in the 80 pt range. I just don't see how they do that regularly. A Fighter/Rogue maybe using 2 weapons and sneak attack but unless he's using the broken (imo) Swshbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw combo he's got a much lower attack bonus than the fighter or Warblade.
So you must never have adventures where you have to invade an enemy stronghold ala Return to Temple of Elemental Evil because resting to recover spells in that sort of situation isn't happening after only 3-4 encounters unless the party leaves at which point they will find their return much more hotly contested than before if not nigh impossible.
Wind walk. Plane shift. Magnificent mansion.
Unless all enemy strongholds are permanent antimagic fields, mid- to high-level casters can come and go more or less as they please.
the 2 weapon fighting fighter rogue is puting out over a hundred damage at least once or twice a fight (all with full attacks mind you). So they are keeping up rather well. The warblade is ofcourse superior if they cant full attack, but that was the design intent of the ToB classes.
How is the rogue getting a full attack regularly? Are you fighting only unintelligent opponents? If a guy with dual weapons moves up and sneak attacks me I always make sure to move out of that situation or neutralize him so he can't make a full attack on me the next round. It's a rare joy when our rogue gets to make a full attack on anyone.
I've been playing for almost 30 years now and I have never bought the whole Casters are so much more powerful than non casters.They haven't been for 30 years, only since 3.0. As a 30-year veteran myself, I'm keenly aware of that fact.
Or high-level AD&D casters were still much more powerful than non-casters, but hardly any campaigns got up that high anyways.
So you must never have adventures where you have to invade an enemy stronghold ala Return to Temple of Elemental Evil because resting to recover spells in that sort of situation isn't happening after only 3-4 encounters unless the party leaves at which point they will find their return much more hotly contested than before if not nigh impossible.Wind walk. Plane shift. Magnificent mansion.
Unless all enemy strongholds are permanent antimagic fields, mid- to high-level casters can come and go more or less as they please.
Ok, I generally consider 6th level spells and up to be high level, RtToEE is for lvls 4-14 so none of those are available until the end.
Even still, Mage mansion is detectable and dispellable which is going to cause you huge trouble when you get plopped in the middle of a ready group of baddies while you're sleeping. Plane shift is not usable for accurate travel 5d100 mile automatic drift so how you're just happily jaunting off to a safe place and returning with that I'd love to know. As for Wind Walk? If you're indoors you're going to be moving 10 ft per round, and unless the place is a straight gauntlet, all the noise those nasty spells you've been using have likely alerted enough people that at high level they are going to notice that mvoing cloud coming back out towards the entrance and either dispel it or worse.
Plus, a single 6th level spell eliminates all of these except Wind Walk and takes out teleport and dimension door at the same time... Forbiddance. and it's permanent. plus a lower level caster cannot even attempt to dispel it.
1. Mage mansion is detectable; 2. Plane shift is not usable for accurate travel; 3. all the noise those nasty spells you've been using have likely alerted enough people; 4. a single 6th level spell eliminates all of these except Wind Walk and takes out teleport and dimension door at the same time... Forbiddance. and it's permanent. plus a lower level caster cannot even attempt to dispel it.
1. Magic aura.
2. That's what teleport is for.3. A 10 x 10 stronghold made of paper, maybe. Chanting a spell isn't earth-shatteringly loud, by the rules, unless you've houseruled it so.
4. All high-level modules should have forbiddance everywhere, then -- which means creating some logical reason why that would be the case. But then the PCs learn that one spell is ruining all theirs, every adventure. So do you just tell them "suck it up"? And, if so, why give them those spells in the first place? Just cap all spells at 5th level and the problem of high-level casters is solved!
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Well, forbidding your castle is pretty expensive, with a base price of 3k per 60ft cube. Worse if you need to give other alignments a password to avoid taking damage. That's 5k per 60ft. Now if you're playing Wish-economy it's no problem, but if you're like most people and care about GP costs then very few opponents are going to have their stronghold covered.
1. Mage mansion is detectable; 2. Plane shift is not usable for accurate travel; 3. all the noise those nasty spells you've been using have likely alerted enough people; 4. a single 6th level spell eliminates all of these except Wind Walk and takes out teleport and dimension door at the same time... Forbiddance. and it's permanent. plus a lower level caster cannot even attempt to dispel it.1. Magic aura.
2. That's what teleport is for.
3. A 10 x 10 stronghold made of paper, maybe. Chanting a spell isn't earth-shatteringly loud, by the rules, unless you've houseruled it so.
4. All high-level modules should have forbiddance everywhere, then -- which means creating some logical reason why that would be the case. But then the PCs learn that one spell is ruining all theirs, every adventure. So do you just tell them "suck it up"? And, if so, why give them those spells in the first place? Just cap all spells at 5th level and the problem of high-level casters is solved!
Magic Aura can only target objects, not spell effects like the Mage Mansion Portal.
So now you're carefully memorizing all those strongholds too so you can teleport back in? And how are your casters learning of these planes where time moves so slowly? and if they know about them, why aren't hordes of other people camping out there waiting to ambush unsuspecting parties coming to camp?
Chanting the spell probably isn't all that loud, only DC 0 to hear, but Battle is DC -10 and a fireball or lightning bolt should be at least DC -20. In a cavern or stone building that's going to echo or reverbrate through the entire structure.
Not all modules certainly, but some ought to.
The spells aren't there to enable the party to freely camp out effectively within an enemy stronghold. Plane Shift is meant as an escape/travel spell as in Wind Walk, Mage Mansion is meant as a super version of Tiny Hut, perfect for camping during overland travel. If they were really designed for the uses you describe, why not just make a 7th level spell that instantly rests the entire party and replenishes all their spells? Sounds to me like the spells are being abused and that abuse is being allowed. If the spells were really meant to be allowed to work that way then every stronghold would have Forbiddance for certain because no one would ever build ne without it since it wouldn't be at all secure.
Well, forbidding your castle is pretty expensive, with a base price of 3k per 60ft cube. Worse if you need to give other alignments a password to avoid taking damage. That's 5k per 60ft. Now if you're playing Wish-economy it's no problem, but if you're like most people and care about GP costs then very few opponents are going to have their stronghold covered.
25k approx per 100'x100' level. Not really all that expensive given the cost of not having it. Add another 17k per level or so if you need a password option.
So a 50x50 sq tower with 4 levels above ground would cost 42k to Forbiddance. Killing the average 9th level PC would furnish you that much wealth on average according to the letter of the rules...
Ok...so now thngs are starting to become clearer maybe...
So you must never have adventures where you have to invade an enemy stronghold ala Return to Temple of Elemental Evil because resting to recover spells in that sort of situation isn't happening after only 3-4 encounters unless the party leaves at which point they will find their return much more hotly contested than before if not nigh impossible.
Well stuff like that is generally reserved for much higher level parties in my group, and high level parties have ways to rest in even hostile territory. There are spells specifically designed for it. If we are assaulting a stronghold, we prep/get scrolls of those spells. In addition, there is the simple bar the door and set watches. Assuming we are using some element of stealth, (if you alert the whole stronghold to your presense there is a tpk anyway), you can get to a side room, bar the door and set a watch long enough to recover. Most of our dms allow this without too much difficulty, throwing in a middle of the night encounter a couple times a plot arc.
I'd definitely agree that if you aren't facing more than 3 or 4 encounters then lack of spells will never be an issue. That almost never happens in any of the campaigns I've been in. You often have far more fights than that unless travelling, and spellcasters must be careful of using their best spells too soon lest they find themselves lacking when it is most needed.
We do alot urban/investigative games, which generally means there is a fair amount of opportunity to rest if you need it. We rarely have a gauntlet of encounters since 3-4 encounters a day is what the game was designed for.
So do enemy spellcasters also not get disrupted? From what I've seen, we regularly disrupt enemy spellcasters and have to spend considerable effort to keep our own casters from suffering a similar fate. In 3.5 it was often too easy to 5 ft step back, but Step up and other feats help there immensely. As does an archer or spellcaster readying an action to nail a caster should they start to cast.
It depends on the dm and the encounter. My group is rather large so getting to the caster is difficult there are always a bunch of pcs in the way. We very rarely have anyone 'ready an action to nail the caster' since most of us would rather do something then maybe do something in a round. We also, now that i think about it, have a small portion of both pc's and npcs as ranged fighters, which makes it pretty moot. The is just a group preference i guess.
60-80 dmg at 10th level? So by my figuring a 10th level fighter using power attack with a 2hdd sword is going to be doing about 2d6+24 with 22 str and +2 sword, so even if he hits with both attacks that's only 58 pts on average. If he's using two weapons he can get out 4 attacks, but the bonus dmg is much lower say 1d8+18 and 1d6+15 using longsword +2/Shortsword +2 with power attack, double slice, weapon spec on both, 22 str, etc... so even if all 4 reduced attack bonus attacks hit (which is highly unlikely), that's about in the 80 pt range. I just don't see how they do that regularly. A Fighter/Rogue maybe using 2 weapons and sneak attack but unless he's using the broken (imo) Swshbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw combo he's got a much lower attack bonus than the fighter or Warblade.
Well I cant speak for everyone in the party because i dont know their specifics. We all have +3 weapons btw. Generalities, one of the party members was a Level 10 Barbarian, with a falchion. Improved crit power attack and rage on a 26 strength (20 starting +1 twice, and a +4 item) Ended up as alot of damage when hasted (which was up most fighters). We were facing some relatively low AC enemies i guess (bunch of plant/vine monsters from one of the Monster Manual Xs from 3.5). I dont know much in the details of the fighter rogue mix, but I know he was hitting with 3 or 4 of 5 attacks. He was almost always flanking with either the barb my dragon disciple or the cleric, so he didnt have alot of trouble hitting especially with the buffs that came from me or the cleric. (did i mention the cleric generally passed out buffs as well in the first round of combat?)
My own character was a sorceror 5 dragon disciple 5 with a 28 str and a +3 (self crafted) amulet of might fists. Keep in mind we also house ruled that claws and concequently bite are usable an unlimited amount of times per day. We also decided the bite would be d4. My character almost always put up haste in the first round of combat (contributing heavily to other players damage output and his own). Each claw attack was 1d6+3(magic)+9 (str)+4 (power attack) + 3 (arcane strike) Averaging 19.5 damage (thats 3 claws with haste) plus a bite which was 1d4+13(str) + 3 (magic) + 6 (power attack + 3 (arcane strike) 27.5. So with 3 attacks that did around 20 damage and 1 that did around 28, geting 60ish a turn was pretty easy.
For fights we had time to prepare for I usually passed out enlarge person via wand increasing damage further.
I admit this is aniqudotal evidence, I havent crunched the numbers on the specifics, but in my experience of a mid level pathfinder game, this is what I saw.
Wow, no wonder. If everyone in the party was carting around a sword (or two) worth at least 28000gp and you had a 45000gp amulet plus other stuff I assume...not surprised you had such high damage output. 28 str is also pretty high, guessing you must also have a +4 str belt?
Well, I assume he does it by full attacking. That's considerably less damage than your typical 9th-level fighter will do with a full attack. You're mistaking lots of dice for lots of damage.
How is a "typical" 9th level fighter doing considerably more than that with a full attack?
2hdd w/ 24 str - 2d6 +9(str)+9(Power Attack) +4(Wpn Spec + Wpn Trng) +2(magic sword) only equates to 2d6+24 which will sometimes be 2d6+24 twice if both attacks hit. So avg 31 or 62 if both attacks hit. Warblade avgs 45 and only needs to hit once with his best attack bonus which will be the same as fighter's best attck bonus -1 for lack of wpn training.
2wpns w/ 24 str - 1d8/1d8 +6/+6(str and double slice) +6/+6(Power Attack) +4/+4(wpn spec + wpn trng) +2/+2 (magic two-bladed sword). So 1d8+18 up to 4 times with Improved Two Wpn Fighting. So if all 4 attacks hit, 90 pts of dmg on avg. However, chance of hitting with all 4 attacks is really low given they are all at -5 (-2 for two wpn, and -3 for Power Attack). More likely 2 or maybe 3 hit. so 45-66 pts of dmg.
Now a fighter can do these only when he can full attack, but the warblade can so an avg of 54 on the first rd of any fight and can avg 45/rd in any fight when the fighter is making full attacks.
and that's just using 1 of the warblades many maneuvers. The warblade is infinitely more versatile on top of being close to the fighter's dmg output when it is optimal for the fighter.
Wow, no wonder. If everyone in the party was carting around a sword (or two) worth at least 28000gp and you had a 45000gp amulet plus other stuff I assume...not surprised you had such high damage output. 28 str is also pretty high, guessing you must also have a +4 str belt?
It seems like every time i forget to ctrl A ctrl C my post it gets eaten. Anyway,
We are half way between level 10 and 11. We follow (odly enough) the wealth by level chart (10th is 62k 11th is 82k) pretty closely My wealth is around 71k. The amulet is self crafted, (i have craft wonderous item and skill focus spell craft), costing me 22.5k. And you are correct I also have a +4 belt, which is also well within the wealth guidelines layed out in the core rules. The +3 weapons only cost 18k each. How exactly is this out of place for a character who has more then 70k in wealth? Or a belt that costs 16k?
The spells aren't there to enable the party to freely camp out effectively within an enemy stronghold. Plane Shift is meant as an escape/travel spell as in Wind Walk, Mage Mansion is meant as a super version of Tiny Hut, perfect for camping during overland travel... Sounds to me like the spells are being abused and that abuse is being allowed.
Good thing you're the arbiter of how the game is "meant" to be played, especially when it involves ignoring the written rules in favor of your interpretation.
In essence, what you've done is taken a fundamentally unbalanced game and balanced it by nerfing spells. That's a perfectly workable approach, and I applaud you for it. But it's not an approach that's mandated in the rules, or even supported by them in any way except a heavy reliance on "rule zero."
Tome of Battle took the opposite route of leaving the spells alone (since the rules for those were already in print) and elevating the warrior classes to near-equal power. If you've already applied a DM-specific spell nerf, then yes, their approach results in "overpowered" warriors. If not, they work pretty nicely. Using spells at full strength in that case isn't "abuse" at all; it's balanced.
As an aside, my own group likes for magic to be, well, magical. So I rewrote the combat chassis and the warrior classes to keep them on even footing. Same strategy as ToB, different one from yours. No better, no worse. The thing is, I own up to what I did in leveling the field, and am willing to admit that the rules as written need to be adjusted using one strategy or the other.
Well, I assume he does it by full attacking. That's considerably less damage than your typical 9th-level fighter will do with a full attack. You're mistaking lots of dice for lots of damage.
How is a "typical" 9th level fighter doing considerably more than that with a full attack?
2hdd w/ 24 str - 2d6 +9(str)+9(Power Attack) +4(Wpn Spec + Wpn Trng) +2(magic sword) only equates to 2d6+24 which will sometimes be 2d6+24 twice if both attacks hit. So avg 31 or 62 if both attacks hit. Warblade avgs 45 and only needs to hit once with his best attack bonus which will be the same as fighter's best attck bonus -1 for lack of wpn training.
2wpns w/ 24 str - 1d8/1d8 +6/+6(str and double slice) +6/+6(Power Attack) +4/+4(wpn spec + wpn trng) +2/+2 (magic two-bladed sword). So 1d8+18 up to 4 times with Improved Two Wpn Fighting. So if all 4 attacks hit, 90 pts of dmg on avg. However, chance of hitting with all 4 attacks is really low given they are all at -5 (-2 for two wpn, and -3 for Power Attack). More likely 2 or maybe 3 hit. so 45-66 pts of dmg.
Now a fighter can do these only when he can full attack, but the warblade can so an avg of 54 on the first rd of any fight and can avg 45/rd in any fight when the fighter is making full attacks.
and that's just using 1 of the warblades many maneuvers. The warblade is infinitely more versatile on top of being close to the fighter's dmg output when it is optimal for the fighter.
2hnd fighter with
Weapon SpecWeapon training 2 (its 2 at 9th level)
Improved critical
Critical Focus
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus.
Power Attack
18 Starting Strength +2 racial, +1 at 4 and 8 +4 item = 26 Str
+3 Great Sword
To Hit: 9+8(str)+2 (weapon Training) + 2 (weapon focus greater weapon focus) + 3 (magic weapon) -3 Power attack = +21/+16. Add in haste and Prayer (2 rather common buffs for this level) +23/+23/+18
2d6+12(str) 2 (weapon spec) + 2 (weapon training) + 3 (magic weapon) + 9 (power attack) with a 17-20 crit threat. Against an opponent with a 22 AC (average for 9th CR)
Unbuffed that is an average of: 39.9 damage with the first attack (including the crit thread and the chance of missing on a 1) and 32.9 damage on the iterative attack. 72.8 damage on a full attack including the chances for misses and crits against a 22 AC.
With haste and prayer you are well over 100 damage on a full attack.
Wow, no wonder. If everyone in the party was carting around a sword (or two) worth at least 28000gp and you had a 45000gp amulet plus other stuff I assume...not surprised you had such high damage output. 28 str is also pretty high, guessing you must also have a +4 str belt?+3 swords cost 18,300 plus weapon cost, which is well within the means of a level 9 character. Dragon disciples and barbarians get +str from class abilities. One assumes that his DD sorc was benefiting from Greater Magic Fang.
So...where's the broken warblade or swordsage example?
Typo on my part, 18k is correct and also more than a full third of the avg PC wealth at 9th level. I would expect a fighter might have one, but for everyone to have one?
Broken Swordsage:
10th level, Starting Str 20, +1 at 4th, +1 at 8th, +4 Str Belt so 26.
Maneuvers:
Disrupting Blow.
Hit with your melee attack and target must make a DC 22 (in this case) Will save or be unable to act for 1 rd.
Dragon's Flame.
30' Cone of Fire 7d6 (w/ Desert Wind Feat) DC: 20 Reflex
Hand of Death.
Make Foe Paralyzed for 1d3 rds. DC: 19 Fortitude
Strike of the Broken Shield.
+4d6 dmg, target is flat footed. DC 21 Reflex save to avoid
Elder Mountain Hammer.
Deal +6d6 dmg and overcome DR and hardness
Sudden Recovery so you can use one of these twice in a row on any given day.
So every fight you can hit a fighter and remove him from combat for a round or blast a bunch of foes almost as well as a mage, or paralyze someone, etc. and you can do these in every encounter. Othewise the only difference between you and a fighter dmg output wise is 2 pts of weapon training and 3 pts of bab...and you have evasion...and 2 good saves...and 10 more maneuvers and 4 stances I didn't bother to pick...and your abilities are unaffected by anti-magic or globe of invuln, or opportunity attacks...