As I understand the rule though even with Maker's Call the eidolon has to be within 100 feet of the summoner to not lose hit points. At least I would definitely rule it that way. Maker's call is nice but I don't read that as replacing the proximity requirement for hit point strength of the eidolon.Totally correct... Hmm, That does complicate things a lot. Makes it a trickier choice. Having him there in a standard but with 25% fewer HP, or having him summonable after a minute ritual.
I would take the HP hit because if I need him at full HP I can still summon him to me, dismiss him then re-summon him. In the mean time he is quickly available and still pretty tough. Worst case scenario with that is it takes 1 minute and 1 round to retrieve him at full HP (Dismiss him then summon him).
Right but that all takes time as you mention and not very handy if you are in the middle of a combat.
So realistically if you want to park them somewhere and use Maker's Call you are going to have the eidolon at least 25% down. In some cases could easily be 50%. Just another example of limitations that people keep leaving out of the details of how this is so overpowered.
Which is why I would also consider fast healing of at least 1 point. It won't help you immediately in a fight, but at least the eidolon could heal back those points in less than an hour. Also why having UMD for Summoner is good to use wands, and why having the medium BAB and d8s is good since you won't always have that eidolon handy at full health.
Right but that all takes time as you mention and not very handy if you are in the middle of a combat.
So realistically if you want to park them somewhere and use Maker's Call you are going to have the eidolon at least 25% down. In some cases could easily be 50%. Just another example of limitations that people keep leaving out of the details of how this is so overpowered.
Which is why I would also consider fast healing of at least 1 point. It won't help you immediately in a fight, but at least the eidolon could heal back those points in less than an hour. Also why having UMD for Summoner is good to use wands, and why having the medium BAB and d8s is good since you won't always have that eidolon handy at full health.
Fast healing is a really excellent call. then you only have to worry about emergency healing. It's not available until higher level (10th?) though.
Fast healing is a really excellent call. then you only have to worry about emergency healing. It's not available until higher level (10th?) though.Right but that all takes time as you mention and not very handy if you are in the middle of a combat.
So realistically if you want to park them somewhere and use Maker's Call you are going to have the eidolon at least 25% down. In some cases could easily be 50%. Just another example of limitations that people keep leaving out of the details of how this is so overpowered.
Which is why I would also consider fast healing of at least 1 point. It won't help you immediately in a fight, but at least the eidolon could heal back those points in less than an hour. Also why having UMD for Summoner is good to use wands, and why having the medium BAB and d8s is good since you won't always have that eidolon handy at full health.
11th level actually which is rough. Wouldn't mind seeing fast healing handled like Improved Natural Armor. You can buy one point of fast healing earlier in the progession (one or two point base ability), and then you can buy one more point every 5 levels a summoner posseses up to a maximum of fast healing 5 at 20th level. Each additional point maybe costing two more evolution points. Haven't really thought the mechanic part through yet.
Now I would really like to see the people coming up with these monstrosities wander into a city with their eidolons. Even better, what if you are in a city-based campaign? Many of these power builds with dragon-like or demonic looking creatures just are not feasible to be walking around with.No. No, no, a thousand times no. You do not balance an ability around the idea that the character will arbitrarily not be allowed to use it.
I am not talking about balancing the ability at all. I am saying it is fine as is. My point is everyone is making these builds and saying how overpowered it is based on ideal scenarios.
My point was you are not going to walk around with a huge eidolon everywhere you go 24 hours a day, which people are not taking into account.
Really Digging the summoner, despite that at first I was disinterested in summoning allies, but when I looked through the Eidolon's evolutions I had an epiphany. :p
I do want to agree with what others are saying about the witch being a fairly weak character in general.
It's strongest point would be enchantment spells, which fit the archetypal witch like they had in Snow White and Wizard of Oz. Although it's hexes are primarily melee touch. Which, as I believe Draeke pointed out that due to a lack of armor training or a good BAB, the witch will most likely die quite quickly.
Which is kind of disappointing in my opinion because I was looking forward to play testing this class.
However with the way the witch is set up it looks to be a support based character at best, like the Bard.
What might work out in my opinion is that some hexes be changed from Melee touch to a range of 30 ft or 60 ft (IE Fortune & Misfortune, ), or even make a few of them use the rules of a Gaze attack (IE Slumber, Eternal Slumber).
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Really Digging the summoner, despite that at first I was disinterested in summoning allies, but when I looked through the Eidolon's evolutions I had an epiphany. :p
I do want to agree with what others are saying about the witch being a fairly weak character in general.
It's strongest point would be enchantment spells, which fit the archetypal witch like they had in Snow White and Wizard of Oz. Although it's hexes are primarily melee touch. Which, as I believe Draeke pointed out that due to a lack of armor training or a good BAB, the witch will most likely die quite quickly.
Which is kind of disappointing in my opinion because I was looking forward to play testing this class.
However with the way the witch is set up it looks to be a support based character at best, like the Bard.
What might work out in my opinion is that some hexes be changed from Melee touch to a range of 30 ft or 60 ft (IE Fortune & Misfortune, ), or even make a few of them use the rules of a Gaze attack (IE Slumber, Eternal Slumber).
Losing the portion that gives AoO against the melee touch hexes would be a great start as well. Currently, all melee touch hexes proc an AoO. I don't know anyone who would think it was worthwhile to take such a hex.
Losing the portion that gives AoO against the melee touch hexes would be a great start as well. Currently, all melee touch hexes proc an AoO. I don't know anyone who would think it was worthwhile to take such a hex.
Why would someone get an AoO against a Witch using a touch attack?
Page 182, Core Rulebook -
"a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed"
They don't provoke an attack of opprotunity when using their touch attacks.
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Losing the portion that gives AoO against the melee touch hexes would be a great start as well. Currently, all melee touch hexes proc an AoO. I don't know anyone who would think it was worthwhile to take such a hex.Why would someone get an AoO against a Witch using a touch attack?
Page 182, Core Rulebook -
"a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed"
They don't provoke an attack of opprotunity when using their touch attacks.
Yes they do, it's in the description for hexes.
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Losing the portion that gives AoO against the melee touch hexes would be a great start as well. Currently, all melee touch hexes proc an AoO. I don't know anyone who would think it was worthwhile to take such a hex.Why would someone get an AoO against a Witch using a touch attack?
Page 182, Core Rulebook -
"a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed"
They don't provoke an attack of opprotunity when using their touch attacks.
Hex: Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table 4–1. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.
Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier.
Word choice, format, spelling, error
Okay maybe not spelIingl. :-)
However the wording of the eidolon's Weapon Training should be changed to:
"An eidolon learns to use weapons,"
Remove the A and make weapons plural. This is more accurate to what gaining the Simple Weapon Prof does.
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Just realized a problem with the witch.
The sidebar says that a familiar belonging to a dead witch forgets all its spells after 24 hours.
This means if a the party witch dies and they take more than a day to res her, she loses all her spells!
I doubt this was the intention, it should probably be clarified (And if it is, at least give them back the spells they'd get if the familiar was died and replaced! Hmm... 'Sorry fluffy, but since I died you lost all your spells, so... I have to off you and get a new one!')
Welp Playtested the Witch.
As I suspected I was not able to do much.
Mostly because in practical gaming the witch had little room to shine.
I took the Warding Hex and was effectively using that to buff our fighter-type through the whole mod. Other than that I was completely useless, but that was due to monster placement. How I thought the witch was originally, regarding enchantment spells, proved ineffective vs swarms, undead, and constructs. all at level 1 mind you. :D
Taking a closer look at the witches spell list I am noticing that she does get summoning spells, but those are almost useless because you'd have a conjurer wizard, or the summoner class overshadow the witch in that respect.
I really want to like this class because at later levels the witch gets a fair amount of good hexes but the minor hexes I feel need to be redone, because I got the feel that I was playing a conjurer/illusionist/enchanter that could heal some wounds.
Would there, by chance, be more hexes coming out soon?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Welp Playtested the Witch.
As I suspected I was not able to do much.
Mostly because in practical gaming the witch had little room to shine.
I took the Warding Hex and was effectively using that to buff our fighter-type through the whole mod. Other than that I was completely useless, but that was due to monster placement. How I thought the witch was originally, regarding enchantment spells, proved ineffective vs swarms, undead, and constructs. all at level 1 mind you. :D
Taking a closer look at the witches spell list I am noticing that she does get summoning spells, but those are almost useless because you'd have a conjurer wizard, or the summoner class overshadow the witch in that respect.
I really want to like this class because at later levels the witch gets a fair amount of good hexes but the minor hexes I feel need to be redone, because I got the feel that I was playing a conjurer/illusionist/enchanter that could heal some wounds.
Would there, by chance, be more hexes coming out soon?
Should have taken Evil Eye, sounds like it's the go-to Hex.
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Should have taken Evil Eye, sounds like it's the go-to Hex.Welp Playtested the Witch.
As I suspected I was not able to do much.
Mostly because in practical gaming the witch had little room to shine.
I took the Warding Hex and was effectively using that to buff our fighter-type through the whole mod. Other than that I was completely useless, but that was due to monster placement. How I thought the witch was originally, regarding enchantment spells, proved ineffective vs swarms, undead, and constructs. all at level 1 mind you. :D
Taking a closer look at the witches spell list I am noticing that she does get summoning spells, but those are almost useless because you'd have a conjurer wizard, or the summoner class overshadow the witch in that respect.
I really want to like this class because at later levels the witch gets a fair amount of good hexes but the minor hexes I feel need to be redone, because I got the feel that I was playing a conjurer/illusionist/enchanter that could heal some wounds.
Would there, by chance, be more hexes coming out soon?
The best part is you can cackle it repeatedly, even if they save they can't seem to win because you just will keep it going.
Ok. So I played my 4th lvl Gnome Summoner for the first time this past Saturday. My intitial reaction is that the Summoner himself really did not do a whole lot, combat wise. When it came to the first encounter, I summoned the Eidelon and then went invisible. The Eidelon did all the work, while the summoner stayed out of the way. Granted, my gnome is not the best at fighting, but the Eidelon is much better. The spell list is mostly defensive in nature, which makes him more support and all his critters are the attack power.
My GM and I talked about the Summon Monster duration. I tend to agree with what I hav read on the boards. 1 min/lvl seems a bit long, but there were times when 1 round/lvl seemd a little short. I agree that a bonus could be that middle ground. Say round/lvl + CHA bonus.
I do wonder how many other summoner players actually picked Summon Monster as a spell they know. It seems a little redundant when you can already cast it on youe own.
Over all I enjoy the class. So far it does not seem too overpowered and it is like running 2 characters at once. With a Biped Eidelon with INT of 7 that can speak, it is more than a Druid and her pet. It is a whole other character.
More to come after next game day.
I do wonder how many other summoner players actually picked Summon Monster as a spell they know. It seems a little redundant when you can already cast it on youe own.
You can cast multiple normal SM spells at the same time, you can only have one running as the class ability.
Ok. So I played my 4th lvl Gnome Summoner for the first time this past Saturday. My intitial reaction is that the Summoner himself really did not do a whole lot, combat wise. When it came to the first encounter, I summoned the Eidelon and then went invisible. The Eidelon did all the work, while the summoner stayed out of the way. Granted, my gnome is not the best at fighting, but the Eidelon is much better. The spell list is mostly defensive in nature, which makes him more support and all his critters are the attack power.
My GM and I talked about the Summon Monster duration. I tend to agree with what I hav read on the boards. 1 min/lvl seems a bit long, but there were times when 1 round/lvl seemd a little short. I agree that a bonus could be that middle ground. Say round/lvl + CHA bonus.I do wonder how many other summoner players actually picked Summon Monster as a spell they know. It seems a little redundant when you can already cast it on your own.
Over all I enjoy the class. So far it does not seem too overpowered and it is like running 2 characters at once. With a Biped Eidelon with INT of 7 that can speak, it is more than a Druid and her pet. It is a whole other character.
More to come after next game day.
As the DM of this game I wanted to lay out a few more snippets about the campaign we are currently playing.
- We are playing a pretty modified version of the Second Darkness AP in the old FR setting.
- All PCs were level 4, and include a druid with mountain lion companion, abberant sorcerer, dwarven fighter 2/wizard 2, dwarven fighter, and we were joined by GreatJawa's gnomish summoner and his 4 armed biped eidolon. Our cleric went AWOL on us a few weeks back so the party is short healing. All characters leveled to 5 the other night as we finished the arc of the first AP book.
- I was one of the people presuming that there needed to be a limit on the number of summons out at one time to keep the game moving and to not crush level appropriate CR encounters.
- Even though its RAW to not be able to communicate with your summoned creatures unless you speak their language, I allow my PCs to have a bit more control over their summoned creatures so they can set them up to flank, use special abilities, etc...
After the changes Jason made late last week and playing one session I have the following thoughts after a bit of reflection.
- I would still allow the SLA summons to be 1 min/level. GreatJawa used a summoned wolf to help chase and then track a foe through Riddleport for the four minutes the spell lasted. Rounds/level really makes out of combat uses for summoned monsters difficult. Beyond that I would reinstate the standard action spell cast length but keep the current limit of one active use of the SLA at a time.
- I would still limit the use of the summon monster spell to rounds/level.
- Given the small number of spells available to the summoner I don't think it is automatic that they are going to take Summon Monster X as part of their spell arsenal. This combined with the rounds/level would go a long way in my mind to making the summon nova problem much less of a possibility. Can it still happen? Yes, but I think it much less likely after watching the class played a bit.
- The eidolon can still be a bruiser even overshadowing the dwarf fighter in the group. I do like the customization this class offers but I fear that if built correctly they can outstrip other PCs.
- I know GreatJawa felt like he was playing the eidolon more than the gnome summoner, especially during combat. He and I need to keep working on this a bit as I think it was a very different way for him to play this game. The way his character is built the gnome is the social aspect of the class while the eidolon is the expression of his physical will.
We will continue to playtest the class with these restrictions in mind and see if anything new comes out from Jason prior to the end of the playtest period.
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- Even though its RAW to not be able to communicate with your summoned creatures unless you speak their language, I allow my PCs to have a bit more control over their summoned creatures so they can set them up to flank, use special abilities, etc...
Check the link ability under the eidolon description. It gives the summoner and the eidolon a telepathic link. It has also been ruled that the Eidolon knows( can speak and understand ) all languages the summoner knows( check the threads... it's in one of them, It might have been archived by now ).
The class however lacks any built in role-playing flavor.
I wouldn't say it has 'no' roleplay flavour, it's just... Overly seasoned so only one flavour comes through strong. ^.^
Wow, I couldn't disagree more strongly with either of you. I think there is lots of roleplaying flavor to be had with the summoner. Summoner is just as open as wizard, but I think we're all used to the standard wizard tropes, so we don't see that as a problem. Summoner is a new class with fewer associated tropes.
Just read the sample eidolons thread, or "how I got my eidolon" for some widely varying roleplaying flavor.
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Summoner is a new class with fewer associated tropes.
This is more what I was trying to say, that it's more limited. I just wasn't really at one with my words. I can't agree that it's 'just as open as wizards'. On the very basic level 'City Protector, Adventurer, Enterteiner, Hermit....' sure, There are lots of ways to do put the Summoner forward (though a lot of the utility for such things was lost with the duration cut to the SLA).
By the flavour what I meant was; regardless what role you play, the mechanism will always be pretty much the same 'I'll help by getting creatures to help and buffing.' Thier own spell and skill list is far too limited to really diversify on that effectivly.
You can, however, always use your Eidolon to help support any role you take quite easily. Through the Skilled, and SLA evolutions, you can reinforce different roles,even passing such things onto yourself with aspect.
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Just thought I would share, made a Level 10 witch for an upcoming play test, fluff aside, she focuses mostly on debuffing, and the non-evil necromancy. Given some feed back I tweaked her to have 15 dex, 10 con, instead of 16 dex 8 con, and moved her Favoured Class bonus from skill points to hp. So she is about 20 hp over where she used to be, and feeling much less fragile.
Also it was suggested to sub in Empower, Heighten, and Toughness over some of her Spell Focus feats.
Otherwise I think the whole package is compellingly balanced other then the two big ones that have been going around the board, AoO's on touch hexes and Familiar Death and Spell loss.
I'm playing a witch in a new campaign. I have an 18 int and a viper as my familiar. We started at 1st level and I felt a little underpowered than the rest of the party, but I have played wizards many times and that is pretty standard in my opinion until higher levels are reached.
Then we came across the big bad of our adventure, a Orc cleric with the destruction domain. One of his first moves was to cast Shield of faith which raise his AC. So I did the logical this by using my evil eye. I do believe that this choice saved the party as we were all rolling horribly against him. He eventually failed the save so I moved on to using my evil eye against his attacks. This also helped the party and saved our Fighter who was down to only a few hit points from getting smitten.
We leveled and I was encouraged to take the cure light wounds hex. I'm still iffy if I actually want it. We have a healer (He is a priest from the Tome of Secrets by Adamant Entertainment) but the extra healing would give us a little more staying power especially is we get ambushed at night. I could heal the party before we all go to bed and he could save his heals for emergencies. I also thought it would work if we come across a lot of people that need healing. In the adventure we are about to save a town attacked by Orcs and they have been beaten and in slaved. So I could heal the townsfolk without wasting any party resources.
The only other thing I have to say right now is I'm really scared that my familiar will die. Unlike a wizard I can't have a second spell book on stand by. I try to keep my familiar out of harms way. That pretty much means that its just role play with it as I don't want to chance it getting hurt in combat. It also means I can't risk it to scout or anything else that I have used wizard familiars for in the past. I know that this was done to make the witch different from a wizard but it may be better to keep the familiar, but use grimoire of some sort for spells.
I will try to keep you updated on how things are going, but right now I'm really enjoying playing my witch.
Hi all,
Sorry for my english.
My first feedback about the new class. I’m the GM and i have ten players. I post here the conclusion about the witch class.
This class is really … bad. All players and me are agree. This class is really bad, not attractive.All reasons :
Again a class with arcane spell and the same style of wizard or sorcerer.
You can’t custom the witch.If 2 players want create a witch, you have the same character, all spell and special power doesn’t change.
Witch is just another wizard type or sorcerer.
Hex is simple and really not innovative.
This witch is a spell class. It’s a problem because with the pathfinder rule you have 4 spell classes, 4 no spell classes and 2 mixed classes. With the new classes, you have 4 new classes with spell (i don’t know if the inquisitor is a full spell class or a mix class) and it’s not a good idea. Try to create a new style of class with the witch. You have too much class with a spell type evolution.
An example of witch :
A witch can use different power. She can use transform spell. Maybe you can give her a transformation as a rat or a crow. (Directly in the first level ? why not).
A witch can use dark power of nature but you can divide in different path.
The path of beast : the witch use the beast of nature. She can gain lot of power as a werewolf or can Summon nature’s ally.
The path of spirit pact: The witch starts with a pact with a powerful spirit. She gain spell and power. You can choose different spirits (Evil spirit of nature, …). All spell is not selected. All spell is linked with the spirit.
The path of hex: The witch talks with spirit and can call them to curse all enemies.
The path of elemental: you can call spirit of elemental and you can summon them to fight for you. (Something like that)
Path of charm and madness: You use power of nature to charm enemies.
It’s a fast example but you can start with this idea. Maybe other players can create a new style of witch ?
Maybe I try to create a...
You might be on to something there.
Quick first read and first impressions are good, but there's some stuff that irks me.
1) "Evolutions" the concept is solid and I like it, but the name has gotta go. Sounds too scientific. Augmentations maybe?
2) I'm not in love with the idea of introducing new spell lists. I know why you did it (there's a damn good mix of spells), but I still think they should work off of an existing list like the oracle does.
3) IMO the Witch should be the Cha caster (hexes and cackles sound like mind effecting abilities to me). The Summoner should maybe be Wis based (force of will to penetrate the dimensions and to bond with an alien mind).
Evolutions is a bit strange. The whole class is a bit too metaphysical for me, a little bizarre.
Ok, finally one of my players (the most prone to powergaming) has played a summoner in my RotR campaign. He built a 8th level summoner with a biped eidolon with four arms (two of them with pincers), a bite attack. It was Large size, counted its attacks as magical, and wore a +2 full plate and a heavy shield.
I'm not going to review the summoner apart because it is in no way overpowered, except he used the starting rules (summons can be cast while another is still in effect; when I told him that would probably go he said that would be bad but I don't think so).
The eidolon is incredibly over-powered in my opinion. Combat-wise, it hit most of the time, even against my villains. At the same time, my highest hitters could only hit it on a natural 20. I think that the combination of high natural armor and heavy armor and shield is a bit too much, or that the heavy armor should come at a higher price.
Well another playtest with the Witch and almost the same result.
I was slightly more effective this time around because some things were susceptible to my enchantment spells, and the only draw back was that the dice were against me that day.
However as predicted using the Slumber Hex was almost impossible to use when I went into close combat.
As everyone has been saying trying to go into combat with no armor profeciencies, and a poor BAB, while trying to succeed on a touch attack that the enemy gets a save on to negate it too much against the Witch.
Looking at the early hexes about half of them are touch based hexes, and half of those provoke AOO's when used on an opponent.
It would be more effective for a witch to use these hexes at a range of 30 or 60 feet depending on hex. The Healing Hexes can stay touch based obviously.
Looking at the early hexes about half of them are touch based hexes, and half of those provoke AOO's when used on an opponent.
Actually, the hex description (before the list of hexes) states that ALL hexes provoke AoO's.
I'm long of the opinion that the Eidolon has to be handled strictly as any other summon. NO ITEMS WHATSOEVER. Put that into your test and see how it comes out.
Err... other summons can use items. Hell, quite a few of them come with their own items.
Looking at the early hexes about half of them are touch based hexes, and half of those provoke AOO's when used on an opponent.Actually, the hex description (before the list of hexes) states that ALL hexes provoke AoO's.
Without a doubt, but I was pointing out the difference between the Hexes used at a range, and the Hexes that are melee touch.
Ally Use:
Fortune
Healing
Ward
Enemy Use:
Blight
Misfortune
Slumber
These latter 3 are melee touch that would undoubtedly provoke an AOO from who you plan to use it on.
And there is the possible threat that you try to use a Healing Hex (for example) on an ally who is fighting a creature with reach and you have to step in a threatened area to heal your buddy.
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The Summoner and Eidolon in my RotRL game hasn't caused any problems. But I can see where some people are coming from about the power of the Eidolon and summon monster ability. At one point she did create a small but effective army when she and the partys monk were the last characters standing in the Skinsaw Murders.
So here some ideas I had during last nights game. Drop the Summoner to a D6. Musch like the druid allow the summoner to choose from two abilites. They either get their Eidolon or they can choose to have the the summon monster ability (also I see no problem at this point why they shouldn't have this at a 1 minute per level).
At one point she did create a small but effective army when she and the partys monk were the last characters standing in the Skinsaw Murders.
People keep bringing this up. Why is this a problem? Numerous other spellcasters can do this rather easily. Note that the updates to the summoner mean that the summoner who is doing this is using spells known on Summon Monster, as only one use of its SLA can be active at one time.
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I'm in the boat that any gear on the summon disappears with the summoned monster if it dies/is dismissed. It's a simple solution to a silly problem (and intuitively makes the most sense).
An equally simple solution would actually be to buff (I know that sounds like madness) the eidolen to a limited degree, and remove the ability for it to use magic items.