I'm very new to running a 3.5e type game (I'm from the way back days of B/X and 1e ... then Labyrinth Lord ... and now Pathfinder) and I have a question for my fellow Gamemasters out there:
When a player attempts to use a skill, do you tell them what the DC is for the skill they are trying? I've just finished running the first part of a homebrew campaign and as a general rule, I don't announce what the DC is. Say, for a Disable Device roll to pick a lock, I will describe the lock as being very complex or a type not encountered before, then the player makes a roll and I will describe the consequences depending on their success or failure; ya know -- role play it. :)
I do not, however, know if this is in line with current role playing etiquette. Are players expecting the GM to tell them how difficult a thing is to do, or is it accepted behaviour to role play it?
Any/all feedback is welcome!
I'm very new to running a 3.5e type game (I'm from the way back days of B/X and 1e ... then Labyrinth Lord ... and now Pathfinder) and I have a question for my fellow Gamemasters out there:
When a player attempts to use a skill, do you tell them what the DC is for the skill they are trying? I've just finished running the first part of a homebrew campaign and as a general rule, I don't announce what the DC is. Say, for a Disable Device roll to pick a lock, I will describe the lock as being very complex or a type not encountered before, then the player makes a roll and I will describe the consequences depending on their success or failure; ya know -- role play it. :)
I do not, however, know if this is in line with current role playing etiquette. Are players expecting the GM to tell them how difficult a thing is to do, or is it accepted behaviour to role play it?
Any/all feedback is welcome!
It depends on the skill involved. Most skills I'll just give them the DC, but for certain skills like Bluff, Sense Motive, and Stealth it's not always appropriate for them to know just how well or badly they've done.
Ditto the situational.
Making an Item : I just tell them, they can figure it out themselves.
Perception Check : Almost never tell them the DC.
Disable Device : Almost never tell them the DC.
Bluff Check : Almost never tell them the DC.
Gather Info : Never tell them the DC.
Follow a Trail : Usually tell them.
Search a Room : Never tell them the DC.
Overcome Spell Resistance : Only tell them after the 3rd attempt.
Those are just examples obviously, but it gives you an idea of when I do or don't give a verbal DC. My usual response to 'What is the DC' is 'Five more than it was before you asked' if it's for something like searching a room or gathering info. :)
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It depends on how much suspension of belief you'd like in your games honestly. I've played under GM's who won't tell you anything and GM's who'll blurt things out immediately.
I find it better to keep track of what you can as a GM and only give them the simplest of things as a DC. A lot of skills work best being rolled by the GM just like they were in older editions.
Perception, Disguise Self, Disable Device, Spellcraft to create magic items, etc. all work out better to me as a player or a GM as being rolled by the GM. Not only does it work better, but a lot of them are intended to be rolled in secret.
If I'm try to find or disable a trap and roll a 4 on my d20, I pretty much know I failed but now I have to pretend that I came up clean. Much more fun as a player to be told I don't find anything after the GM rolls a hidden d20 and then actually blunder forward into a trap. :)
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As the Dm, you set the precedent. It is ok to tell them the DC, if you want. It helps the game speed a lot, actually, but it does sort of hurt them mood as well.
It is much more on how you handle and describe it than what the players know out of game.
For example, the characters are walking into a cave to fight a dragon, and the dragon is waiting to divide and destroy. So opens up with a surprize fear aura.
1.) Everyone give me a DC 25 Will save. Whoever makes it, raise your hand. And one person makes it "As your creeping along, trying to catch the dragon unawares, all of the sudden [player 1, 2, and 3] start feeling very cold and hollow. It only takes a second or two, but their worst and most vivid nightmares spring to the front of their mind. In terror, they drop their arms and shield, or whatever they are holding, and embrace that oldest of pirate traditions. Leaving [player 4] wondering what just happened, but only a moment as the dragon lurches from the shadows. . .
2.) Ok, your all trying to sneak in and get a surprize round on the dragon. As you advance, give me some Will Saves.
22, Nat 1, 10, and 27. "Ok Players 1, 2, and 3 all run away in fear, and the dragon steps into view. . ."
My gamemaster usually doesnt give us the DC. She gives us a rough descriptive estimate of how hard something appears to be (usually based off an average of die roll of 10). if we want an actual DC, that take a DC10 Int+Skill check and an action to evaluate it.
Ok,
Made up anecdotal evidence does nothing to help the discussion. We all know female players are as rare as hen's teeth. The mere concept of a female GM is so full of Paradox that the universe is trembling just from your post. An actual female GM would likely cause the planet to be sucked into a quantum hole never to be seen again.
Thanks for the replies, all good stuff. Glad to see I'm at least playing in the correct ball field!
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My gamemaster usually doesnt give us the DC. She gives us a rough descriptive estimate of how hard something appears to be (usually based off an average of die roll of 10). if we want an actual DC, that take a DC10 Int+Skill check and an action to evaluate it.
Ok,
Made up anecdotal evidence does nothing to help the discussion. We all know female players are as rare as hen's teeth. The mere concept of a female GM is so full of Paradox that the universe is trembling just from your post. An actual female GM would likely cause the planet to be sucked into a quantum hole never to be seen again.
Muahahahaaa! I knew I could destroy the universe if I tried hard enough!
Wait...what are you all still doing here?
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Some rolls are done in secret.
For instance, if there is a secret door nearby and the elf gets a perception check to see if he notices: If I ask him for a perception check, and he rolls low, the player is now on to the fact that something is there and they've missed it.
But if I roll it ahead of time or even as they pass, looking like I'm checking for wandering monsters or something.... Then the elf either senses something is wrong with that wall or they pass by oblivious.
Same with Disable Device and a few other rolls.
Think of it this way--do you tell the players what AC the bad guys have? There are some things they know, and some things they can figure out, but when I run, i generally don't give out that kind of information. If the player asks what the DC is, I tell them they don't know. If they ask if they have a chance at it, I give them an estimate (good chance, probably not, etc.) and they decide whether they want to try based on that. Like others have said above, certain rolls the players never get to make are looking for traps, disarming traps, gathering info, and so on. For that, I just tell them the result, not the DC (and maybe not even how close they came, depends).
If they ask if they have a chance at it, I give them an estimate (good chance, probably not, etc.) and they decide whether they want to try based on that.
LOL my players usually just try and who cares about the DC!
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Do whichever you like.
Change your mind if you want, you're the GM!
I created mini character tags for the each PC last week. Now I keep their key skills handy and sometimes make the roll for them. This has added a "classic" smooth feel to the story.... try it.
Sometimes I've announced the DCs, especially when I think I want the players to feel the challenge. Par example, they faught the advanced elite rust monster from PAIZO's monster ecologies this past Monday. I told the figher who was carrying around a Sunsword and several other amazing items that the DC was 28 to save for his magic items.
This way, the group knew he needed to roll a 20 to pull off the save. And, when he did for one of the items, it made success for the challenge sweeter, and also set the expectation early that stuff was going to turn to rust - a lot of stuff including magic armor and whatnot.
So, this decision is up to you, but the application of the technique of reveal or no-reveal may vary by circumstance to enhance the game moment as you see fit. It does not need to be all or nothing.
MDT, i think of it as my one little way of serving the Lords of Destruction...i figure being the only guy in a gaming group with three women should just about damn the planet to implosion. Never seen a planet implode, should be neat for about .5 seconds.
jess, I am still here because a side effect of being the only guy is that I am shielded form the devestation triggered by the proximity of female GM by the other two female gamers in the group. It is like being the token guy in a magical girl anime...sure some not happy things happen to him, but in general he is warded against the worst things because he is the token guy. ;)
That and well... He's surrounded by magical girls. That's an upside in itself usually worthy of the "not happy things" that will happen to him. ;)
I allow my players to roll their own dice, but never tell them DCs. For disguise, stealth, and sense motive type checks I'll roll behind a screen and make them role play it out. Mostly to keep the fun and mystery in the game.
I guess I agree that giving the exact DCs doesn't really make sense (how often does a person know, within 5 percentage points, how hard it is to climb a fence?), but neither does it make sense to keep players completely in the dark about the likelihood of success. Some kind of balance must be struck using the GM's knowledge of the in-game situation. Edit: I guess I'm trying to say, when appropriate (and determining that is up to the GM), use adjectives instead of numbers.
One thing to remember though: Sometimes characters will think something is easy to achieve when it's not, and also contrariwise. It's yet another way to keep them guessing. Insert your own Malevolent GM Grin here. :']
But I don't like to take it too far. I once had a GM who, and I can only say this by inference, hated giving players information. We'd have to pry knowledge out of him. "How hard is it to make this jump?" "Try it and see." Feh.
Speaking of player knowledge of rolls: You know what I do when I make secret rolls, like whether or not people succeeded at a Perception check? Don't roll them at all, not even behind the GM screen. I use random.org to generate a hundred d20 rolls at a time, then pick the next one off the list when the time comes for a secret roll. That way, my players don't even know when I've rolled anything. It saves a ton of time too because I can use them for attack rolls or anything else.
GM I'm playing under (he's still stuck on 3.5, but plays Pathfinder), will roll 3, 4, maybe 5 dice at the same time, at random times during the game, just so we won't know when he's really rolling for surprise, or search checks, or saves, etc. Sometimes he rolls the dice just to hear them clatter in his little plastic dice-rolling tower.
Muahahahaaa! I knew I could destroy the universe if I tried hard enough!Wait...what are you all still doing here?
Wrong universe.
Tell them the DCs? Are you mad, man?
Players aren't told anything. They are lucky we tell them whether they succeeded!
To go from half-serious to mostly-serious for a second:
I'd give them a ball-park if appropriate ("That lock looks quite well-made and seems to have an ingenious mechanism") but no actual numbers. They're not supposed to know just when they can take 10 without risk.
GM I'm playing under (he's still stuck on 3.5, but plays Pathfinder), will roll 3, 4, maybe 5 dice at the same time, at random times during the game, just so we won't know when he's really rolling for surprise, or search checks, or saves, etc.
Of course. Time-honoured practice among GMs! Especially recommended for metagaming-prone players. Also, let them make perception checks or stuff like that for no reason.
GM "Your character's an elf, right? Make a perception check!"
Elf "17"
GM "Well, okay, then."
All players "WE TAKE 20 ON PERCEPTION LOOKING FOR SECRET DOORS"
GM *describes, in great detail, how they go about searching* "After over an hour, you haven't found any secret doors. But the elf did find a filthy elven limerick written in near-invisible ink written on the wall over there."
Or just let them roll stuff, wait for them to tell you the result, and then just smile to yourself.
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In my games I have the players roll perception checks and record them on a sheet ahead of time. That way their own dice save or doom them. Then when something pops up, a trap or an encounter, I just check off the next set of Perceptions and check for success or failure. Works especially well for rogues with the trapspotter and elves with the secret door thing. It does have one down side. Sometimes the players know they have had a really good or very poor set of rolls and they may still stop and examine everything. But usually they just let those rolls go and press on. Has sped up adventures immensly. No more rogue checking every 10' and no more stopping mid hallway when a die gets rolled.
I find that in a typical game 10 rolls each are more than enough. 5 would probably do, but every now and then I go over 5 and of course Rogues and anyone else that has a passive detect something or other will chew up extras.
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Of course. Time-honoured practice among GMs! Especially recommended for metagaming-prone players. Also, let them make perception checks or stuff like that for no reason.
My Tuesday night game is played online using MapTool and I will sometimes ask the players to "hold on a second, I'm whispering" even when I'm not ("/whisper" is the command to send a private chat to a player). I know the players whisper to each other as well, so now they'll be whispering trying to figure out who I was sending to and all of them will reply that it's not them! Fun galore! :) Of course, I use an open mic on my end so they can hear me typing furiously during this time...
Another nice thing about MapTool is that I have a macro set up so that I can select a set of figures on the map (called "tokens") and click a button to run a Perception check for each of them. The results are sent privately back me and not the players. (The tokens have all of the PCs stats so the macro can produce a result for each token and I don't need to look at a charsheet summary.) I can also choose a different skill to roll as well; Sense Motive, Stealth, and Knowledge checks are common. Objects on the screen can also have macros; my secret doors have their Search DCs embedded in a macro as well: I select the PCs in the room and click the object's "Skill Check" macro and I have the results. Each object can check one or more different skills.
In general I would suggest not to give it. Maybe say "It looks really hard" or "Should be a cakewalk".
The only time it's important to know the DC in advance is if there is a negative consequence to failure (beyond just not getting to do something). If you are disabling a trap it's good to know how tough it's going to be.
The only time it's important to know the DC in advance is if there is a negative consequence to failure (beyond just not getting to do something). If you are disabling a trap it's good to know how tough it's going to be.
IMO, that's exactly the time I am most determined not to tell them the exact DC.
A vague "It looks like an ordinary trap" or "Wow, this trap amazes you!" or some other such thing is all I'm willing to give. It's enough for the player/PC to know the general ballpark he's playing in, without knowing mechanical/metagamey details he shouldn't.
The only time it's important to know the DC in advance is if there is a negative consequence to failure (beyond just not getting to do something). If you are disabling a trap it's good to know how tough it's going to be.IMO, that's exactly the time I am most determined not to tell them the exact DC.
A vague "It looks like an ordinary trap" or "Wow, this trap amazes you!" or some other such thing is all I'm willing to give. It's enough for the player/PC to know the general ballpark he's playing in, without knowing mechanical/metagamey details he shouldn't.
Hehehe... I was going to suggest how accurate the information you give should be based on how well they aced the search DC. No real hard and fast rule but if the player nailed the Search DC by 10 you would give them better feedback than if they barely succeeded.
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In my campaign, players can burn experience to buy Action Points (which can add a d6 to the roll of a d20, but only before their success is announced), so rolls typically go like:
Me: The dragon statue breathes a cloud of noxious chlorine gas! I need a Fortitude save from you, Nigel.
Nigel: I roll a 10. With adds, that's a 18.
Me: Are you happy with that, or did you want to use an Action Point?
Nigel: I don't know. Does it seem particularly virulent?
Me: Even if you save, your tunic will be bleached white.
Nigel: Then yes, I think I'll buy an Action Point. Make that a 21.
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do you tell them what the DC is for the skill they are trying?
I only tell them DC's when they exceed them.
For instance, if a player wants to know what DC a lock was I will tell him (if he asks) after he succeeds but never before succeeding.
I also tell (without being asked) what AC a monster is when they exceed the AC by a few points (but not when they blow it out of the water.)
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I do the same as all those who go with situational revealing of the DC, when it's appropriate or when it doesn't matter. But most of the time when asked for the DC, I respond, "you think that would be difficult/easy/cake" or whatever.
As a result, whenever a player sets a DC for an NPC or creature and I ask, "What's the DC on that?", you can guess what kind of response I get. :|
It generally never reveal dc's but I will try to give some description to indicate difficulty. "The side of the cliff looks nearly impossible to scale". "The lock looks fairly simple and ordinary". I try to do the same with attack rolls. "Your enemy nearly ducks out of the way but you catch him with your blade" "Your blade bounces off his thick hide" etc.
I also like others have mentioned try to keep the players on thier toes. Perception checks especially are made in secret, often I have the players give me 20 d20 rolls prior to the session, and I use their own dice rolls to make the secret rolls. Not only is this more satisfying for the players (their rolls are still theirs) but it also means I dont actually have to roll dice for secret rolls, thus not alerting them unless they succeed and saving game time.