I think it's reached the point where we're just going to have to agree to disagree, as I'm of the opinion that all SRD base classes should receive the exact same level of consideration. (Except maybe the soulknife, which, if I recall correctly, first appeared in the SRD as a prestige class, not a base class.)As I was saying, referring to a "Pathfinder psion" should be as meaningful as referring to a "Pathfinder fighter." If Paizo's official line becomes - as it seems to be now - "We're going to make a Vancian psion, but you can use some other compatible version of the psion if you don't like it," then we have two valid classes named "psion."My feeling is that it should be most meaningful for the classes in the Core Rulebook, and that other classes shouldn't receive that same consideration (even for Paizo's later classes).
Overall, I have sort of been there for a while. I was trying to note my own opinion and reasons for believing it rather than convince that your opinion was wrong.
As for the 3.0 SRD, I believe that the Psion and Psychic Warrior were present as base classes, the Soulknife was there as a prestige class, and the Wilder was absent.
Like I said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm sorry if I came off as selfish. That wasn't my intent. My point was, those who like psionics enjoy the system as much as they do the fluff - more-so in every fan of psionics I've seen. There are things that psions can do better, and things spell-casters can do better (more actually).
Those who enjoy psionics for what it is will, I believe, be less attracted to a Vancian caster with the name "Psion" or "Psychic Warrior". I also believe that those who like Vancian casting would be less attracted with there exist Sorcerer and Duskblade (insert any Gishy fighter/mage class here).
I play with Psionics in my games all the time. I consider the XPH to be the best expansion to the core 3.5 line there is. It is perhaps the most balanced expansion I've found; balanced more than the 3.5 core books I believe. That said, I don't recall much of the Vancian casting you mentioned in XPH/SRD; unless you are speaking of Psi-like abilities, which are like spell like abilities (usable at-will or x/day). In which case, I think you may be a little confused as to what I was meaning originally with my statement. If a creature with Psi-like abilities takes on a psionic using class, their psi-like abilities and psionic powers are in...
As someone who likes the idea of psionics, but doesn't particularly care about the XPH system, you might see why I greatly disagree with comments trying to set me in a near absent minority.
While I have not hate for the XPH, I don't have any particular love for it either. All I really desire is, when appropriate, psionics get attention in the world of Golarion for NPCs and such. Specifically, I would like to see it if/when there is a focus on Vudra. So if the issues with psionics mean that Paizo can't really use it for NPCs, then I'm perfectly fine with altering the system as needed. Because, for me, the system matters much less if I'm not seeing it expanded upon within world products. For that, I would say that I believe that the system is broken, and that is reinforced when I see comments on how psionic enemies should limit their response to avoid being more powerful adversaries than they are intended.
As for my "Vancian-like casting" comment, I was talking about Psi-like abilities (which function pretty much exactly like Spell-like abilities). While they aren't exactly like the spells in the way a Wizard prepares, I think that describing them as the same is fair enough as the last page of discussion has often been calling the spontaneous casting of Sorcerer as the same system as the Wizard. Spell-like abilities aren't very different from Wizard spells and I would say that Sorcerer spells were more different. I'm just trying to use this point to counter the idea that anything but a point-based system is psionic and that XPH presented psionics as only a point-based system. That there is an area were there are psionic abilties that are not point-based.
As someone who likes the idea of psionics, but doesn't particularly care about the XPH system, you might see why I greatly disagree with comments trying to set me in a near absent minority.
While I have not hate for the XPH, I don't have any particular love for it either. All I really desire is, when appropriate, psionics get attention in the world of Golarion for NPCs and such. Specifically, I would like to see it if/when there is a focus on Vudra. So if the issues with psionics mean that Paizo can't really use it for NPCs, then I'm perfectly fine with altering the system as needed. Because, for me, the system matters much less if I'm not seeing it expanded upon within world products. For that, I would say that I believe that the system is broken, and that is reinforced when I see comments on how psionic enemies should limit their response to avoid being more powerful adversaries than they are intended.
As for my "Vancian-like casting" comment, I was talking about Psi-like abilities (which function pretty much exactly like Spell-like abilities). While they aren't exactly like the spells in the way a Wizard prepares, I think that describing them as the same is fair enough as the last page of discussion has often been calling the spontaneous casting of Sorcerer as the same system as the Wizard. Spell-like abilities aren't very different from Wizard spells and I would say that Sorcerer spells were more different. I'm just trying to use this point to counter the idea that anything but a point-based system is psionic and that XPH presented psionics as only a point-based system. That there is an area were there are psionic abilties that are not point-based.
I think we're beginning to communicate this through and understand each other better. I too would like to see Psionics expanded upon and represented in Golarion. I was even very happy to see it included in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting I purchased this past year (the 3.5 one).
I'm just saying, I don't want to see them rework "Psionics" as something different and call it psionics. If you wanna throw creatures, the odd template, or things around that give spell-like abilities (like the Monster Manual mindflayer or quoatle), fine by me. Theme sorcerers as psychics and throw 'em a few reflavored spells if you feel it enhances the flavor more, that's great. That would work fine for NPCs, and offer a few new options for the Vancian fans. However, virtually everyone I've ever met (until now, I guess) who is a fan of psionics is a fan of the system as much or more-so as the fluff.
To me, this very much sounds like a friend of mine who keeps hounding me to "give up on that old stuff, and come play 4E". My friend who loves Wizards (the class) in play, hates 4E because it doesn't feel like playing a wizard anymore. I guess I understand how he feels. I don't want Paizo to kill off a wonderfully effective and balanced ruleset that already exists in the SRD, to change it into something it's not to so many psionics fans.
Pathfinder is SRD with a lot of changes, and re-balances. The 3.5 SRD psionics needs even fewer changes to work. There's far fewer gameplay problems with the entire Psionics system than were present in the 3.5 PHB! Paizo could practically copy the d20 SRD, change a handful of things (make the psionic classes a bit better for Pathfinder, fix energy stun, write a better metaconcert), add their beautiful artwork and Pathfinder seal of approval, and I'd buy it.
In fact, the XPH is hard to find nowadays. Some would probably buy it even if they didn't care for Pathfinder for that reason (but I'm just guessing, so feel free to ignore this point).
For that, I would say that I believe that the system is broken, and that is reinforced when I see comments on how psionic enemies should limit their response to avoid being more powerful adversaries than they are intended.
Please explain this to me. Maybe you know something I don't. I really don't understand what you mean by this statement yet.
I think we're beginning to communicate this through and understand each other better. I too would like to see Psionics expanded upon and represented in Golarion. I was even very happy to see it included in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting I purchased this past year (the 3.5 one).
I'm just saying, I don't want to see them rework "Psionics"...
I also have no desire for a list of psionic characters that don't feel psionic. It is just, in general, it seems that what Paizo creates is in line with my own thinking, so combined with the idea of any open playtest the system would go through, I'm not really worried that Paizo is going to make a non-psionic feeling system (to me at least). I think there is a great enough variation with Vancian and spontaneous one can create with other class abilities to make such a caster feel psionic.
I would say that the XPH options are not good enough to require minor changes. The biggest issue I see with it is that (from the perspective of creating adventures) it is among the neediest systems that exist. For example, what Paizo has done for NPCs in APs (from what I can tell) back to Shackled City, is reprint all the rules in order to run a character with just the Core Rulebooks. To do that with most of the XPH classes is very costly as practically all known powers would need to be reprinted along with the rules for augmenting and psionic focus. They could start changing the class to worth within the context of general adventures, but I would think the result would be a quite different class that they would need to develop somewhat anyway. For me, at minimum to be useful to general published adventures, it would mean that the wording would become more like magics (spells instead of powers), the majority of the spells on their spell list come from the Core Rulebook, and Psionic Focus (in general) goes away. That would leave a spell-point caster wielding metamagic feats and such.
I believe that if some company did that, most of the really dedicated psionic fans would ignore it because they already had the system they wanted with XPH and Dreamscarred Press. That the people really happy with XPH will stick with it and just ignore anything that deviates from that book, and especially so when all the new book is doing is trying to mimic the system they really like. I would similarly think that the people looking for a psionic system that they felt wasn't broken would look at it, see the spell point system, then ignore it as well.
The majority left buying it (in my uneducated estimation) would be the people that were just going to buy whatever Paizo made (because they didn't have the other products, wanted a pretty art book, or such). Because of that, I can't see Paizo going that route (along with them not really liking the point casting system in general) as I would believe they would have a lot of other books that more people were going to want.
There was some quote that either James Jacobs or Erik Mona made about the psionic system that I really liked. My faulty memory tells me it was something along the lines of :
A product can be a complete success, return with an average showing, or a failure. We think that if we did psionics right now, it would be an average showing, which is fine, but it would likely mean the interest would be too low for much, if anything, later supplementing that product. We want to make this a complete success, which means not angering the current psionics crowd along with bringing in new people.
(I probably smash some of the other posts they also gave, it was a long while ago, I really wish I saved a link to it)
Quote:
For that, I would say that I believe that the system is broken, and that is reinforced when I see comments on how psionic enemies should limit their response to avoid being more powerful adversaries than they are intended.Please explain this to me. Maybe you know something I don't. I really don't understand what you mean by this statement yet.
It pretty much comes down to the concept of psionic "Nova-ing," that a point using character can expend all of their power as fast as they can for a brief increase of power beyond what the character would have normally. Sort of glazing over the fact that some people disagree that spending points at this rate gives a substantial power boost to save that argument for another time, the common statement why "Nova-ing" isn't a problem is that it is a wasteful expenditure of power, and that the GM should really enforce that the party should be going through multiple encounters in a day (So the Psion spent all his power in the first five minutes, send the riled monsters now that he is powerless and trying to rest).
Now, if that is the appropriate solution, then a problem comes about when the Psion is a villian who facing off with the party. For this character, this battle may be his last, and giving his all is his only option. Spellcasters typically use this advantage by casting all the buff spells of which they only had one of, Psions can do that and just have no limit on how much power they can toss out. They may have little to no power after the battle, but for them that is their best and only option.
As for when they finally do happen, I can pretty much guarantee that psionics will NOT be substantially different than the game's current spellcasters... they're very likely to, mechanically, be even closer to arcane and divine spells than they are even in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and that's something that a lot of psionics fans are going to have difficulty with accepting. But since no one at Paizo's interested in building a set of psionics rules that breaks the game or makes the core classes of the game feel underpowered (which is the way it works now in 3.5), that's not really something that's up for debate.
This is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard of. 3.5/XPH Psionics, aside from a few sticking points (which are largely the same broken bits of their non-psionic equivalents) is more balanced than out-of-the-box arcane/divine magic. It is also a more fluid system that better resembles how one should deal with the powers of the mind, and frankly when explaining it to a new player, psionics are easier to describe ("remember that final fantasy? Yeah, PP is like MP, except you can't spend more than your level on one power").
Psionics handily avoids the metamagic stacking cheese found within Vancian spellcasting. You don't see chain twin repeating split energy rays in psionics because you can't do it. You'd need psionic foci for each metapsionic feat--and it is downright impossible to feasibly get more than two foci.
Psionics does have some strong powers--energy missile, schism, and temporal acceleration immediately spring to mind--but one would think that would be a problem more of those specific powers, rather than one endemic to the entire system.
I am curious to know what, exactly, makes you consider psionics to be woefully overpowered in comparison to base Vancian spellcasting, as from where I'm standing it seems that 3.5/XPH psionics is one of the few things in the 3.5 game that does not need to be altered at all to make it fully compatible and on-par with the rest of Pathfinder.
Fax,
I am not James but from my viewpoint the problem with psionics is how to integrate it with their Adventure Path line of product. Rebuilding a psychic warrion using a bard's spell know and spells per day method is a very easy change. Combine that with the concept of scalable spells and you have caught most of the flavor of a PP based character and stayed with the spontaneous casting mechanic.
Claws of the Beats could be changed to if mainifested as a 1st level power then the claws do 1d6 damage and for each higher level it is manfested at add an additional 1d6 damage to a maximum of 6d6 point of damage if cast as a 6th level power.
While not what some of us would like to see changing the method of manifesting from spending power points to a spontaeous Vancian casting method will allow us to play a psionic character in Pathfinder Society.
Doug
Fax,
I am not James but from my viewpoint the problem with psionics is how to integrate it with their Adventure Path line of product. Rebuilding a psychic warrion using a bard's spell know and spells per day method is a very easy change. Combine that with the concept of scalable spells and you have caught most of the flavor of a PP based character and stayed with the spontaneous casting mechanic.
Claws of the Beats could be changed to if mainifested as a 1st level power then the claws do 1d6 damage and for each higher level it is manfested at add an additional 1d6 damage to a maximum of 6d6 point of damage if cast as a 6th level power.
While not what some of us would like to see changing the method of manifesting from spending power points to a spontaeous Vancian casting method will allow us to play a psionic character in Pathfinder Society.
Doug
I can understand changing the system for thematic purposes. That entirely makes sense. But changing it because it's "broken" when it's fundamentally one of the least exploitable pieces of the 3.5 game (arguably, the least exploitable under the OGL) speaks of assumptions about how psionics works and what it is, rather than actual knowledge of the psionics system itself.
Heya, long-time member of a variety of D&D boards here, and... I entirely agree with Fax, and thought it was worth signing up over. Psionics were overpowered and nasty in 3.0, but the XPH pretty much completely fixed all that for 3.5. It's now considerably more balanced than Arcane or Divine; there's a very famous survey of classes by perceived power, and you'll notice a significant gap between Wizard/Cleric/Druid and the Psion (8.35/10). The Wilder (6.46/10) and Psychic Warrior (6.02/10) are much farther down the list as well. This survey is hardly scientific, now, but was made by many of the best minds in the D&D community. I do understand that PF has tinkered with class balance quite a bit, changed a number of the most abusive spells, but that should be easier, not harder, for psionics.
It's also a much easier and nicer system. Vancian Casting, for all its illustrious association with D&D, is an extremely awkward system. It always involves a whole lot of bookkeeping, and I've honestly never seen a high level Wizard (or Cleric, or Druid) who didn't slow down play substantially every time they wanted to prepare a new spell list, or every time they weren't exactly sure what they'd cast because their notes were confusing. All three also suffer from having massively extensive spell lists, further aggravating the bookkeeping problem and slowing down play even more.
The 3.5 Psionic system, on the other hand, is much more fluid. All you need to track is your current PP, a single number as opposed to the massive tiered lists of the Wiz/Sorc/Druid. It's even less bookkeeping than the Sorc, since you don't need to work out some complex system of tracking how many spells of how many levels you've used where; all you need is that one number, and the rest is good.
In addition, the Augment system means that low level powers stay more useful for your entire career and become your mainstays, which makes for more familiarity and consistency, while Arcane/Divine casters of all stripes are liable to gain strange new powers in the middle of a dungeon and then have to learn the nuances of what they do if they want to stay with the power curve. The Psionicist just augments the powers he already had, and calls it a day. Vancian Casters rely on their higher level spells, which change every couple levels, while Psionicists rely on augmenting their lower level spells, which are constant. Guess which creates more of a bookkeeping headache?
Then there's the believability quotient. Let's say you've got an 10th level Sorcerer who happens to not have metamagic (not an uncommon situation), and you need to lay Arcane Mark on things, say a pack of cards so you can cheat like crazy. Your Sorc, with all his massive arcane might, can cast Arcane Mark... six times, then he's done for the day. Oh sure, he still has enough magic left to blow up a city, turn the king into a frog, and raise the rest of the royal family as zombies... but putting a symbol on the other 46 cards is now, somehow, too taxing for him.
The only thing "wrong" with 3.5 Psionics is the leftover grudge a lot of people have from the failed 2.0 and 3.0 attempts, and the whole "ooo new agey crystals oooo" that is off-setting to some. I'd be happy to see either of those changed. The system could be renamed (instead of "Psi" you could call it "Ki" if you're not too worried about the Monk, or "Chakra" if you're not too worried about Incarnum, or something else along those lines), and the reliance on crystals and ectoplasm could be adjusted as well with little work. Making it Vancian though, that sounds like the worst of both worlds and a horrible mistake. If that's what you're planning, then I strongly urge you to reconsider.
Thanks.
I can understand changing the system for thematic purposes. That entirely makes sense. But changing it because it's "broken" when it's fundamentally one of the least exploitable pieces of the 3.5 game (arguably, the least exploitable under the OGL) speaks of assumptions about how psionics works and what it is, rather than actual knowledge of the psionics system itself.
I suggest not really trying to go this route in the argument. You are essentially telling someone who has played with system and had issues with it, and that their experiences do not qualify for "actual knowledge." You can choose to ignore the fact that those experiences led him to this decision, but in that case I would note that your own experience proving this system is super-balanced are also worthless.
I suggest not really trying to go this route in the argument. You are essentially telling someone who has played with system and had issues with it, and that their experiences do not qualify for "actual knowledge." You can choose to ignore the fact that those experiences led him to this decision, but in that case I would note that your own experience proving this system is super-balanced are also worthless.
I suppose it is. I still think it's a ridiculous idea, and one that will cause me--and likely many others--to pass over Pathfinder in favor of something else.
In addition, the Augment system means that low level powers stay more useful for your entire career and become your mainstays, which makes for more familiarity and consistency, while Arcane/Divine casters of all stripes are liable to gain strange new powers in the middle of a dungeon and then have to learn the nuances of what they do if they want to stay with the power curve. The Psionicist just augments the powers he already had, and calls it a day. Vancian Casters rely on their higher level spells, which change every couple levels, while Psionicists rely on augmenting their lower level spells, which are constant. Guess which creates more of a bookkeeping headache?
This has not been my experience. When augmenting powers I have felt the power boost it gave was somewhere around the same area as metamagic feats have on spells. It make a spell/power more powerful, and make it cost as much as a spell/power several levels higher, but it doesn't make it as powerful as another spell/power of the same cost without metamagic/augmenting. An energy ray augmented with 16 points isn't as powerful a 9th level spell/power.
Then there's the believability quotient. Let's say you've got an 10th level Sorcerer who happens to not have metamagic (not an uncommon situation), and you need to lay Arcane Mark on things, say a pack of cards so you can cheat like crazy. Your Sorc, with all his massive arcane might, can cast Arcane Mark... six times, then he's done for the day. Oh sure, he still has enough magic left to blow up a city, turn the king into a frog, and raise the rest of the royal family as zombies... but putting a symbol on the other 46 cards is now, somehow, too taxing for him.
This kinda of leaves me with an odd thought as the rules kinda seem to say that higher level slots can be used to cast lower level spells. While with a brief look I don't find a specific statement to the effect for Sorcerers or Bards in the 3.5 SRD, the fact that every person that I have ever played with has used the same spontaneous casting interpretation, it leaves me thinking that this argument is incredibly weak and damaging to the rest of your post.
I really shouldn't post in this thread, but...
I didn't like the Expanded Psionics Handbook precisely because of the issues that have been mentioned, primarily that while the book was balanced against itself, it wasn't well balanced against the Core Rules. I ended up telling people that I would either run a game with only the Core magic system, or I would run a game with only Psionics, and no Arcane or Divine magic, because the balance issues made building an adventure take about 5-10 times as long for me. This is what problems I have had, and that is my experience. I understand why people like it, but I've had issues.
That said, I would love something that brought it more in line with the Core rules and that wouldn't require me to learn an entire new sub-system and operates on the same core principles as the Core Rules. I would like to see the New-Agey feel go somewhat by the wayside more in favor of a kind of Mystic. In short, I'd love to see what Paizo could do to actually make it so I actually can use psionics in the vast majority of my games.
My two cents, and my opinion, which everyone knows the value of...
This kinda of leaves me with an odd thought as the rules kinda seem to say that higher level slots can be used to cast lower level spells. While with a brief look I don't find a specific statement to the effect for Sorcerers or Bards in the 3.5 SRD, the fact that every person...
Regardless of the validity or commonality of a house-rule, it is still a house-rule. As far as I'm aware, no such rule exists.
This kinda of leaves me with an odd thought as the rules kinda seem to say that higher level slots can be used to cast lower level spells. While with a brief look I don't find a specific statement to the effect for Sorcerers or Bards in the 3.5 SRD, the fact that every person...Regardless of the validity or commonality of a house-rule, it is still a house-rule. As far as I'm aware, no such rule exists.
Doesn't this cover it?
"The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell."
This kinda of leaves me with an odd thought as the rules kinda seem to say that higher level slots can be used to cast lower level spells. While with a brief look I don't find a specific statement to the effect for Sorcerers or Bards in the 3.5 SRD, the fact that every person...Regardless of the validity or commonality of a house-rule, it is still a house-rule. As far as I'm aware, no such rule exists.
For Pathfinder RPG it is here. It is under Spell Slots for Arcane spells. It was also in the same section of the 3.5 rules, under the Arcane Prepared Casters.
While it didn't exist under the spontaneous caster section, it should be noted that no description of spell slots existed and that point was meant to be used by the sorcerer section as well. Aiding this view is that it starts the statement "The various character class tables show how..." when there is only one arcane prepared caster. That it is talking about the other classes outside that very small group in the core rulebooks.
This has not been my experience. When augmenting powers I have felt the power boost it gave was somewhere around the same area as metamagic feats have on spells. It make a spell/power more powerful, and make it cost as much as a spell/power several levels higher, but it doesn't make it as powerful as another spell/power of the same cost without metamagic/augmenting. An energy ray augmented with 16 points isn't as powerful a 9th level spell/power.
See, I've found the reverse. My highest level Psion (level 12) almost entirely relied on 1st and 2nd level powers. Astral Construct, Mind Thrust, Ego Whip, Energy Missile, and Vigor were all mainstays via augmentation, and would still be valid powers at level 20. Her 5th and 6th level powers, by contrast, were powerful but too expensive to be used reliably and rather niche anyway. I mean, Plane Shift and Overland Flight and Major Creation and Fiery Discorporation are nice, but those aren't things I'm tossing out every round. Temporal Accelleration and Mass Cloud Mind were worth using in combat, but honestly I generally found that I was doing just fine with what I had at level 3. And that's not a luxury most Vancian casters have. I'm not saying Psions must use lower level powers, just that they can and that it's easier than it is for Vancian casters, what with how augment works and the lack of caps. They just have to pay for that advantage via increase PP costs.
I've had different DMs say different things. Thank you Hogarth for actually clearing that up! I still think it's an awkward system, having to dance around the spell slots of each level, and causes more problems than it solves.
Psionics like any other system, core, ToB, and so on can be broken, but its not inherently broken. It is actually weaker than casting spells.
Rather than argue something that has already been argued I will just point to this place -------> click me
It pretty much comes down to the concept of psionic "Nova-ing," that a point using character can expend all of their power as fast as they can for a brief increase of power beyond what the character would have normally. Sort of glazing over the fact that some people disagree that spending points at this rate gives a substantial power boost to save that argument for another time, the common statement why "Nova-ing" isn't a problem is that it is a wasteful expenditure of power, and that the GM should really enforce that the party should be going through multiple encounters in a day (So the Psion spent all his power in the first five minutes, send the riled monsters now that he is powerless and trying to rest).
Now, if that is the appropriate solution, then a problem comes about when the Psion is a villian who facing off with the party. For this character, this battle may be his last, and giving his all is his only option. Spellcasters typically use this advantage by casting all the buff spells of which they only had one of, Psions can do that and just have no limit on how much power they can toss out. They may have little to no power after the battle, but for them that is their best and only option.
I see what you mean. However, I must politely disagree. They're no more dangerous than a well-played wizard or sorcerer. Now, I could mention the spontaneous meta-magic feats in the complete arcane (think normal metamagic feats, but 1/day you could spontaneously apply them to a spell for free); but for the sake of argument I'll stick to core only.
Wizards and sorcerers go nova just as well. Many of my big bads are spellcasters, or have spellcasting servants, and all of them are dangerous because of their "nova" aspect regardless of level.
1st level adepts wielding spears and casting "sleep" over and over until run out of spells will make your 1st - 4th level party cry. I know. A group of 1st level adepts wearing studded leather and carrying longspears and slings, who have sleep prepared twice, and a couple of cure minor wounds spells make for dangerous low-level enemies. Each one could take out an entire party in 1 round, and you could easily encounter 2-4 of them in a single encounter. This is a tiny nova - more of a spark really, but showing that NPCs are more dangerous than the PCs because they have no reason for conserving their magic.
On the reverse side, let's compare a 20th level wizard or cleric or druid. Now if we have the wizard, he time stops then begins summoning monsters (the biggest and baddest monsters he can - without fear of reprisal). He then proceeds to blow through his 9th level spells, and then his 9th level scrolls (since y'know, he has no reason to conserve his consumable equipment 'cause he's gonna die if he looses).
In fact, he may have made his equipment, and thus has plenty left to spare. So in this case, not only is he punishing the players 'cause he has no reason to conserve any of his resources, he's also including his equipment as that resource (read - destruction of the PC's treasure).
Now, the cleric, druid, and other spellcasters all have options of similar power. In some cases arguably more powerful.
The Psion could start eating through his items as well, but he'll probably just keep burning his power points. Maybe pop a temporal acceleration to get off a buff; but even if he wants to start pumping out some meta-psionic hurt, it's not going to do much for him compared to the wizard or sorcerer.
Now another thing that's important to remember is the action economy. Even if you CAN blow through 443 power points without letting up, the likelihood of actually getting to do so is likely slim. You see, in the time that a Psion keeps throwing out fully powered powers (read 9th level spells), the wizard is too; and likely both of them will not exhaust their options before their deaths or defeat (a quickened teleport gets the wizard out of there ASAP, along with his treasured equipment).
Spellcasters can "go nova" as well. In fact, I believe one of the biggest complaints with the 3.5 system people mentioned all the time was the 15 minute workday (spellcasters go in, blow stuff up, rest, repeat). This is going nova at its finest (or worst).
Also, keep in mind that due to magic/psionics transparency, spells like lesser globe of invulnerability work on psionics as well. In fact, they block augmented powers as well (so a protection that stops 1st-3rd level spells also blocks 1st - 3rd level powers, regardless of how many PP you used).
So I believe your previous statement is incorrect. Psions cannot go nova any worse than a standard NPC or PC can that is a magic user. The Pathfinder wizards and sorcerers are actually a bit better at going nova now, because they have some powers that aren't based on spells, which they can use when not facing a "important" enemy, so they can conserve their resources even further for when they go "BOOM". Of course, I don't have a problem with this, and I don't see others complaining about it much.
Then there's the believability quotient. Let's say you've got an 10th level Sorcerer who happens to not have metamagic (not an uncommon situation), and you need to lay Arcane Mark on things, say a pack of cards so you can cheat like crazy. Your Sorc, with all his massive arcane might, can cast Arcane Mark... six times, then he's done for the day. Oh sure, he still has enough magic left to blow up a city, turn the king into a frog, and raise the rest of the royal family as zombies... but putting a symbol on the other 46 cards is now, somehow, too taxing for him.
The only thing "wrong" with 3.5 Psionics is the leftover grudge a lot of people have from the failed 2.0 and 3.0 attempts, and the whole "ooo new agey crystals oooo" that is off-setting to some. I'd be happy to see either of those changed. The system could be renamed (instead of "Psi" you could call it "Ki" if you're not too worried about the Monk, or "Chakra" if you're not too worried about Incarnum, or something else along those lines), and the reliance on crystals and ectoplasm could be adjusted as well with little work. Making it Vancian though, that sounds like the worst of both worlds and a horrible mistake. If that's what you're planning, then I strongly urge you to reconsider.
I agree with SonofZeal. While I've never withheld casters from using their higher level slots to cast spells, he does make the point that you are still limited by the number of slots instead the amount of power. For example, a 20th level psion has 343 + (1/2 Int * level) (let's say he's got a 30 intelligence from magic items and the like, so that's an extra 100) for about 443 power points. Now he could manifest 22 fully powered powers if he were to use them entirely for the most bang he can manage. Alternatively, you could use a 1st level power (1 pp) 443 times; which is likely the equivalent of "at-will" in most games; or something in between.
This makes more sense to many people. It also is important to note that spellcasters benefit from "Free scaling", which means a 5th level wizard's "Shocking Grasp" spell deals 5d6 damage for the same 1st level spell slot. While a Psion would have to pay 5pp for the same benefit (the same as manifesting a 3rd level power).
Toss in that it costs a manifester about 5,000gp * power level to learn a new power through the use of Psychic Chirurgery manifested by an NPC (see purchasing spellcasting in the SRD), and that requires a high level NPC to get the power from, and you quickly begin to understand why psions have a bit of versatility in their damage powers (such as being able to change the element of their offensive powers). Just think of it as Energy Substitution as a bonus feat.
Break Wall o' Text
Phew, ok, this post is getting long; but let me continue. I've got a pretty diverse group of players. One of my friends loves wizards, another loves psions. They have no complaints with how powerful each other is. The first player doesn't understand psions, and prefers wizards. The second doesn't get spell slots and hates preparing stuff. The closest thing he does to vancian casting is the bard; but he loves psionics. Both have played in many of my games from to levels 14+.
While I never actually had problems with anything going on from either of them; I will admit the wizard came out as more powerful in most situations. He tended to outright end encounters before they began, and could also out-blast and out-ward the psion in most situations. This is humorous because the one thing psionic characters actually can do better than other classes on average (barring feats like energy substitution) is be effective damage dealers with powers (because they CAN change their element on the fly). However, it's obvious to anyone who's done their homework that damage spells are generally considered poor options for spellcasters anyway (when compared to other options they already have).
I would also note that the wizard player is notorious for holding up the game trying to decide which spell to cast in which situation, or needing to reference a spell he's got prepared and paging through the PHB constantly. On occassion, I and the rest of our group have opted that while he decides on his action, we would go grab a drink and some snacks or go pick up a pizza (no, I'm not exaggerating). This doesn't bother us too bad, 'cause he's our buddy and we're not gonna tell him what to play; but man I would love it if he'd try a psion for a change.
These issues of "balance" that some posters keep mentioning do not seem to exist. In fact, I wish I could play in a few games with others to show more specifically, through playing, exactly what I'm describing here. It is provable through demonstration.
Post Done
Phew, time to go cook dinner. ^_^
So I believe your previous statement is incorrect. Psions cannot go nova any worse than a standard NPC or PC can that is a magic user. The Pathfinder wizards and sorcerers are actually a bit better at going nova now, because they have some powers that aren't based on spells, which they can use when not facing a "important" enemy, so they can conserve their resources even further for when they go "BOOM". Of course, I don't have a problem with this, and I don't see others complaining about it much.
While I understand all of that, it hasn't really moved my position. Spellcasters are also capable of expending all the resources very quickly to gain a short burst in power as well.
They can set of their magic items, buff spells, and highest level spells often without a real worrying about having to save anything but that one teleportation spell when they need to escape.
My point would be, the psionic character can do the first two items just as well, and perform the third even better. While the spellcaster will "quickly" degrade from his highest level spells, to his second highest spell, then so one; the psionic is perfectly capable of choosing his most powerful power appropriate to the situation and using it with no deterioration of abilities until their fuel runs out. So that 17th level psion could be dumping something like 30 points each round to defeat opponents when the spellcaster quickly loses that pace after the first few rounds.
Given buff time, I might suggest some advantage to the psion here as well given what he knows. He might be able to expend more powerful buff spells before combat, knowing that casting a high level buff won't stop him from casting an offensive power in combat.
While there are issues of augmenting not overcoming globes, well, neither does a quickened empowered magic missile. It is sad for the manifester/spellcaster that wants to use a powered up low level power/spell, but given the number of options each has, I don't think that would be a massive deterrent for either of them.
Now, bringing up a "Complete" books into this I would mention that at the end of Complete Psionic, there is a Psionic NPC variant that does say what I'm trying to say. That power points can burn faster and hotter than other options.
The entire point of D&D psionics is that it is a subsystem. If you aren't interested in a new subsystem, then you aren't interested in D&D psionics. In the entire history of D&D, "psionics" has never been equivalent to "mental powers." "Mental powers" is a larger category that includes things like enchantment spells and the 2nd Edition mentalist spells as well as psionics.
Now, outside of D&D, "psionics" and "mental powers" do mean the same thing. Ignoring D&D definitions of terms, enchantment spells are psionics, and the two should work the same way. But ignoring D&D definitions of terms, gorgons aren't bulls, harpies aren't bird ladies, and necromancers can't cast spells that kill people.
Many fans of 3.5 psionics aren't interested in a generic system of mental powers that doesn't use the D&D definition of psionics. They want D&D-style psionics, just like they want D&D-style gorgons and harpies and necromancers. If Pathfinder wants to stay true to the history and spirit of the game, they can't just throw out the specific connotation that D&D has always attached to the word "psionics."
You mean that the entire point pf D&D psionics, in your opinion is that is a subsystem. I don't mind that you have your interpretation. I gave mine, because I would like to have something that I can use without having to spend hours on end memorizing new quasi-schools of magic for, when they already have schools that I know. And tell me, what did I mean by 'Mystic' hmm? A Mystic, in my view is not a Mentalist. But yes, I have had bad experiences with psionics, and I've had these discussions with other people who've played before 3.0 came out, which was when I first even heard of D&D. That's the way it is. I don't have that experience, but unless it's easily integrated into the game in a way that doesn't make me have to throw my entire approach to campaign design out the window, I'm not going to even bother trying it anymore. If I want something that handles Psionics completely differently than Magic, I'll play Anima. It did it better than 3.0 did, and was in it's core rulebook.
That said, go ahead and say what you want. I gave my opinion, and that is what it is. Just like your comments are.
Edit: I should add that I also think that Anima did their Psionics better than the Expanded Psionics Handbook did as well, but you probably wouldn't consider it Psionics, though my friends who played the original D&D say it reflects it closely.
Psionics like any other system, core, ToB, and so on can be broken, but its not inherently broken. It is actually weaker than casting spells.
Rather than argue something that has already been argued I will just point to this place -------> click me
I think that is a very good post.
But I don't think it doesn't defend against any of the arguments I've been making.
I would even suggest it sort of agrees with them in the second paragraph. It seems to submit that, if a psion was actually going through less than the recommended number of battles per day, the balance of power would be skewed. That the class has a greater potential when the GM is not running with that reccommended number of encounters, the way the system is intended to be run.
That post sets no additional argument against it despite covering various powers, classes, feats. It does not defend that the system doesn't exceed other systems when that core condition isn't met. Given that is an issue that I have, that seems very much like an admission of that issue.
Now, it may not be a problem for people who "properly" use the system. But for my games, I don't feel this is a indicator of balance when I have to worry that much about keeping the psionic characters in line.
While I understand all of that, it hasn't really moved my position. Spellcasters are also capable of expending all the resources very quickly to gain a short burst in power as well.They can set of their magic items, buff spells, and highest level spells often without a real worrying about having to save anything but that one teleportation spell when they need to escape.
My point would be, the psionic character can do the first two items just as well, and perform the third even better. While the spellcaster will "quickly" degrade from his highest level spells, to his second highest spell, then so one; the psionic is perfectly capable of choosing his most powerful power appropriate to the situation and using it with no deterioration of abilities until their fuel runs out. So that 17th level psion could be dumping something like 30 points each round to defeat opponents when the spellcaster quickly loses that pace after the first few rounds.
First off, you can't spend 30pp a round at 17th level. You just broke the number 1 rule of psionics; and that's evidence to me and others that you don't know what you're talking about (up until now I've assumed we were on equal ground in our debate). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say: unless you're talking about quickening your powers, requiring a higher point cost and expending your psionic focus (remember, that thing that fuels your feats, and you can't effectively use to super-cheese with meta-modifications), at which point you're also manifesting a faster but weaker power than you can WHILE burning through your power points.
Given buff time, I might suggest some advantage to the psion here as well given what he knows. He might be able to expend more powerful buff spells before combat, knowing that casting a high level buff won't stop him from casting an offensive power in combat.
Like what? A wizard has access to Mind Blank, Wish, Limited Wish, Spell Turning (works on Psionics too!), Globe of Invulnerability (again, works on Psionics), Contingency, Protection from Spells, Forcecage (cast on self as a barrier), and Gate (summon baddies that will make your Astral Constructs weep).
The psion can pop a Mind Blank, and Augment a few low level buffs for some AC increases, but doesn't have the self-buffs that are that powerful. Also, he could try to use Shatter Mind Blank (lvl 5 psionic power), but its a will negates and functions similar to a Dispel Magic check. This means he likely won't be able to even cancel the Mind Blank ability, especially since the wizard can have Protection from Spells (+8 to all saving throws vs magic/psionics) up.
Not to mention the wizard is STILL nova-ing at a rate easily comparable to a psion and being more dangerous while doing it!
If I have a 20th level super big-bad evil-guy, with an intelligence of 30 (15 base, +5 for level ups, +6 for magic item, +4 from wish spells), he should have about 5 9th level spells per day. He has 18,000 gp according to the P-SRD for expendable items, and has Scribe Scroll, so we toss in about nine scrolls of 9th level or about 15 charges in a 9th level staff (self made). He also has 55,000gp in weapons, so we can go ahead and throw out a few more spell-trigger items, for about 45 charges worth of 9th level spells (could be a general staff of big-smack).
With his 44,000gp for various wondrous goodies, we'll pick up a rod of absorbtion with a bit left over, since he's picked up the crafting feats.
Ultimately, I feel this shows that even an NPC wizard can match or exceed what a psion can do. Couple with the fact the Wizard can use meta-magic stronger than psions, gets better results from spell DC enhancing feats (see Spell Focus versus Psionic Endowment), and not only do they get plenty of spells but they're stronger to boot. Pathfinder wizards pull ahead even further from school powers, and the ability to make use of magic items outside their prohibited schools.
While there are issues of augmenting not overcoming globes, well, neither does a quickened empowered magic missile. It is sad for the manifester/spellcaster that wants to use a powered up low level power/spell, but given the number of options each has, I don't think that would be...
Showing that Wizards are equally as good at repelling meta-magic spells as they are repelling psion powers. However, psions can't do this as well either, unless it's specifically a single-target spell using the 8th level Kineticist power Reddopsi.
The Big Reveal
The fact remains that, while I believe I've made a very solid case on how an NPC wizard (not even close to the WBL for players) can shell out as much epic-nova as a psion potentially could. He's also got a larger variety (much, much larger) of options to choose from, and in general he has better control spells, wall spells, and so forth...
The Psion could also get lots of sweet magic/psionic items, and have tons of options and such too. Instead of magic items, maybe they pay out the back-end to learn more powers via Psychic Chirurgery, or they try to get PP enhancing items to manifest more, or psionic versions of spell trigger items, and so forth. Maybe the psion could match everything the wizard can do, pound for pound from his NPC-WLB.
But here's the kicker...
It doesn't matter, because if they're going up against a party of high level heroes, it's likely they aren't going to last more than 10 rounds; in which case neither comes ahead. Hence, the "Enemy Psion PP" problem does not exist.
So I would ask others, what do you think?
PS - The complete psionic is one of the worst books released by WotC, period. People, especially the fans of psionics, mock it relentlessly for its exceedingly great shortcomings and stupid rulings. It's the only complete book I wouldn't buy (I have all but Champion, and CompPsi, but I've heard Champion is nice).
I am not gonna go point by point but the issues is to use psionics in a game a GM and the players must learn a whole new system, with it's own flaws, abuse areas and issues.
It will never have wide scale use until folks can run it with the core rules
First off, you can't spend 30pp a round at 17th level. You just broke the number 1 rule of psionics; and that's evidence to me and others that you don't know what you're talking about (up until now I've assumed we were on equal ground in our debate). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say: unless you're talking about quickening your powers, requiring a higher point cost and expending your psionic focus (remember, that thing that fuels your feats, and you can't effectively use to super-cheese with meta-modifications), at which point you're also manifesting a faster but weaker power than you can WHILE burning through your power points.
Yes, that is what I was talking about. When I say both classes burning at full power. I mean it. Two spells per round with all the focus on delivering all the power they possibly can. Along with the fact that there are many more powers in the XPH that can be manifested as a swift or immediate action without a feat than there are similar spells in Core Rulebook. That you don't really know those powers is evidence to me that you don't know what you're talking about, would be an inappropriate thing to say. Treating me as if I were less knowledgeable and need to be spoken down to is a very bad idea.
I am not gonna go point by point but the issues is to use psionics in a game a GM and the players must learn a whole new system, with it's own flaws, abuse areas and issues.
It will never have wide scale use until folks can run it with the core rules
It's not like it's a complicated system. We psi fans don't rave about it because it's like THAC0 or something. It's been pointed out that it's easier to learn than core magic, especially for newbies.
1) You get as many points as your class tells you.
2) You get 1/2 your key ability modifier every level as bonus points (don't even have to look at a chart to figure out your bonus points, like with bonus spells).
3) You can spend up to 1pp per manifester level (so level 1st = 1pp, 5th = 5pp) per power. Anything higher, and you can't do it.
4) Pick your powers, and spend your points to cast them.
5) Make concentration checks for pretty much everything spellcasters already do.
Congradulations, you just learned Psionics. Class dismissed.
Oh I have used the rules and will disagree it's easier. I will agree it's easier to abuse and hard to stop then the core classes. It's been 8 months since the book was last used and I am rusty but it was used for a year and I do not care for it's issues
You also left out all my "spells " work diff, I gain 2 free meta magic feats at no cost and have afar more intimidate and swift "spells" then core and is needlessly complex
If ya want to use the system cool more power to ya, I however am unlikely to allow this system used in a game without dropping all other types of casting
First off, you can't spend 30pp a round at 17th level. You just broke the number 1 rule of psionics; and that's evidence to me and others that you don't know what you're talking about (up until now I've assumed we were on equal ground in our debate). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say: unless you're talking about quickening your powers, requiring a higher point cost and expending your psionic focus (remember, that thing that fuels your feats, and you can't effectively use to super-cheese with meta-modifications), at which point you're also manifesting a faster but weaker power than you can WHILE burning through your power points.Yes, that is what I was talking about. When I say both classes burning at full power. I mean it. Two spells per round with all the focus on delivering all the power they possibly can. Along with the fact that there are many more powers in the XPH that can be manifested as a swift or immediate action without a feat than there are similar spells in Core Rulebook. That you don't really know those powers is evidence to me that you don't know what you're talking about, would be an inappropriate thing to say. Treating me as if I were less knowledgeable and need to be spoken down to is a very bad idea.
The powers that can be manifested as swift actions are mostly Psychic Warrior buff powers, powers like Catfall (which are like Feather Fall), or powers that grant boosts to various things. These are not powers that people have to worry about in a combat situation as making a character overpowered, or even to be seen as a threat. The Psychic Warrior has been heralded as an icon of game balance.
Moreso, most of the powers that CAN be manifested as a swift action begin at a standard action, and then must be augmented by spending more points to equate to a higher level spell. This is in essence akin to quickening it, without the feat. Again, this often the case with psychic warrior powers.
Also, you can only use one swift action per round, so you cannot manifest these powers and a quickened doomsday power, and a regular power at once. If you wanna blast the party in your BBEG ubercheese, then you're not doing it with these.
Also, let me clear something up. I said I would give you the benefit of the doubt, but that saying you're going to be burning 30pp a round at level 17, supposedly to crush the party 'cause of the NPC-PP "problem", sets off a red flag to a psionics fan. You didn't explain how you're going to go about doing this, but as I said before, it's 1 PP per level per manifestation. If you ARE using quicken power, you're doing it only once per round or once every other round, to manifest smaller less damaging or debilitating powers, or you're spending much more juice on the fly to manifest what amounts to Enlarge Person on yourself to charge into melee with.
Yes, I said it seemed like we suddenly weren't on the same ground in the debate, because truthfully, it sounded (and perhaps still does) like you didn't understand what you can actually do compared to a wizard of equal level; at which point we would no longer be on an even argument because one of us is arguing under false pretenses.
Oh I have used the rules and will disagree it's easier. I will agree it's easier to abuse and hard to stop then the core classes. It's been 8 months since the book was last used and I am rusty but it was used for a year and I do not care for it's issues
You also left out all my "spells " work diff, I gain 2 free meta magic feats at no cost and have afar more intimidate and swift "spells" then core and is needlessly complex
If ya want to use the system cool more power to ya, I however am unlikely to allow this system used in a game without dropping all other types of casting
Can you give me some examples? You must make concentration checks for everything wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and so forth do. You are subject to spell resistance, spell turning, spell protection, rods of absorbtion, and everything magic is. Dispel Magic works on Psionics. "Powers" don't work different than spells. Spells increase in effect as you gain caster levels, powers increase in effect as you pay more for them (and limited by caster level) in much the same ways.
There a PHB spells that are swift actions, as well as any spell that you can quicken. Also, the psionic powers that come with the ability to augment for a swift action are limited in their scope, and unique to the power. You don't gain free quickening for everything. You could pay a crapload more PP to manifest Expansion (read - Enlarge Person) as self only (only targets you) buff, but not Energy Ball (the psionic equivlant to Fireball).
Also, Swift and Immediate actions are not unique to Psionics. It occurs in the core books (after errata), as well as tons of other books that came out afterwards. If you cast Feather Fall, swift action, Quicken - Anything here, swift action. If you have the PHB-II, it's loaded with swift and immediate actions.
What is needlessly complex?
So I would ask others, what do you think?
From what I can tell your explanation is what I saw from your previous post in a extended format. From what I can tell you placed so many 9th level spell items to just overcome what the Psion is potentially capable of. But the Psion isn't likely to run out of power points during the battle even if he didn't prepare like that and he went all out (at higher levels), so he doesn't need to increase how much power he can draw on and just focus on other magically items. Potentially ones that cover the holes left by those buff spells that the Psion himself can't manifest.
I'm not really trying to use Complete Psionic as proof that this is a problem, only that this issue isn't something that just comes out of nowhere.
You probably are correct on the lacking of the Psion spell list in the XPH, and that probably affects of their power compared to the Wizard just from the Core Rulebook. But, even then, I can't see that as that powerful of an argument given what I said before about a Psion needing to use spells from the Core Rulebook. Their current power list lacking in comparison to the Wizard's is not significant when that has to be changed around anyway.
So I would ask others, what do you think?From what I can tell your explanation is what I saw from your previous post in a extended format. From what I can tell you placed so many 9th level spell items to just overcome what the Psion is potentially capable of. But the Psion isn't likely to run out of power points during the battle even if he didn't prepare like that and he went all out (at higher levels), so he doesn't need to increase how much power he can draw on and just focus on other magically items. Potentially ones that cover the holes left by those buff spells that the Psion himself can't manifest.
I'm not really trying to use Complete Psionic as proof that this is a problem, only that this issue isn't something that just comes out of nowhere.
You probably are correct on the lacking of the Psion spell list in the XPH, and that probably affects of their power compared to the Wizard just from the Core Rulebook. But, even then, I can't see that as that powerful of an argument given what I said before about a Psion needing to use spells from the Core Rulebook. Their current power list lacking in comparison to the Wizard's is not significant when that has to be changed around anyway.
I'll be honest. I gave a detailed example in the previous post of what a wizard was capable of, because it's so ludicrous. Note at the end of my post I said, in the end, none of it matters; because whether a wizard casts 5-10 9th level spells, or a psion manifests 5-10 fully augmented powers (equivalent to 9th level spells), they're likely toast before they get done. Or the party is dead. Or somebody has escaped.
Showing that the wizard can have 45+ 9th level spells to flush down the toilet was an attempt to drive the point home; to show that when it actually comes to the gameplay, it's a non-issue. Truthfully, I wouldn't bother to cast JUST 9th level spells as a wizard, 'cause many spells between the levels 4-6 are better than 9th levels in more situations, and if I need to, I can use Highten Spell to up the spell's level and save DC (which allows me to penetrate protections).
Also, yes. It's harder to adjudicate core magic than it is psionics. Even with Pathfinder this was realized, as you will find tons of spells that have been smacked with the hammer down to something less abusable.
I love playing Wizards and Psions the most of any classes. I love how much they added to the wizards in Pathfinder. Sure, a few broken spells were nerfed, and a few that weren't broken were nerfed, but all in all, there's no huge difference I feel (except for the lack of good save or die spells, which Psionics lacks anyway - not that they don't exist, but that they're smothered in the weak-sauce compared to 3.5 spellcaster SoDs). Both play differently, feel different, but no one has shown me a good example of "Psi-Powah" that's struck me as overpowered.
In fact, I love when my players play psions, 'cause it's going to be easier as a GM. :P
Edit
I would also like to point out that I didn't even use all the wizard's resources. I didn't purchase his protective items such as rings, cloaks, armors, and so forth. I just dropped in weapons (45 charge staff), consumables (another staff or scrolls), magic item (rod of spell absorbtion), and left the rest alone. None of these items are even stacking the wizard out of the way a 20th level NPC would likely be.
After such a long time, no I can't give ya examples. I find the whole system needlessly complex where it does not need to be. I am not sure on the number of swift or immediate spells in core 3.5 But I got to 11 in the XPH and was in the g's before I stopped counting
At the time we used it i found the system to abuse able, did not play will with other casting classes and over all made a mess of things. Ya can show me examples all day, but at the time I did indeed know the rules, kept the book real close to look things up as well. And in the end it was a hot mess, needlessly complex that did not play well with others
After 4 trys at being a subsystem that never works with core, I think it's time to try something that will work with core
As it stands the system really can not be used in AP's and well anything other then the book it's in, so it remains the red headed stepchild. I would need at lest 10 pages to even began how to use a psionic NPC. There in lays the real issue
As always YMMV
Also, let me clear something up. I said I would give you the benefit of the doubt, but that saying you're going to be burning 30pp a round at level 17, supposedly to crush the party 'cause of the NPC-PP "problem", sets off a red flag to a psionics fan. You didn't explain how you're going to go about doing this, but as I said before, it's 1 PP per level per manifestation. If you ARE using quicken power, you're doing it only once per round or once every other round, to manifest smaller less damaging or debilitating powers, or you're spending much more juice on the fly to manifest what amounts to Enlarge Person on yourself to charge into melee with.
Yes, I said it seemed like we suddenly weren't on the same ground in the debate, because truthfully, it sounded (and perhaps still does) like you didn't understand what you can actually do compared to a wizard of equal level; at which point we would no longer be on an even argument because one of us is arguing under false pretenses.
But that would be the purpose of the Quicken, using it once per round or less just goes with the territory. That Quicken Power takes more energy than Quicken Spell is mitagated somewhat by the reduced cost of Quicken Power meaning you can manifest higher level quickened powers than cast quickened spells.
I'm just more irritated because if I said, "I'm using at least two level 8 spell slots per round," that I wasn't going to be be jumped by the proponents of Vancian/Spontaneous magic for not knowing the system. :P
I'll be honest. I gave a detailed example in the previous post of what a wizard was capable of, because it's so ludicrous. Note at the end of my post I said, in the end, none of it matters; because whether a wizard casts 5-10 9th level spells, or a psion manifests 5-10 fully augmented powers (equivalent to 9th level spells), they're likely toast before they get done. Or the party is dead. Or somebody has escaped.
Showing that the wizard can have 45+ 9th level spells to flush down the toilet was an attempt to drive the point home; to show that when it actually comes to the gameplay, it's a non-issue. Truthfully, I wouldn't bother to cast JUST 9th level spells as a wizard, 'cause many spells between the levels 4-6 are better than 9th levels in more situations,...
But it didn't have that impact on me, because I know that if I start attaching anything near that value of consumable items to my NPC, that from my experience, that I'm just shooting for a character that is meant to trash the party beyond what his level would indicate. And that is what the typical Psion brings the field without magic items. That a consumable laden character has similar issues to the Psion is not a counter in my view, it is a confirmation that unless the GM pulls back on the gas, he will be torching the party because that is what I would expect from the character burning magic items left and right. That once I say, my wizard has cast 10 level 9 spells in the battle, my instinct is something has run amok.
I'm was not trying to suggest that you need to spend all the wealth to reach that point, just that the money you spent didn't have to be spent in the same way as the Psion.
Edit: While I've been running with the 3.5-isms being used, it should be noted that staves in Pathfinder RPG only have 10 charges, but can be recharged.
I can use Highten Spell to up the spell's level and save DC (which allows me to penetrate protections).
While I'm not incredibly convince that there is a major difference in power due to the cost of the feats and skills required between the two systems (Like what is required for psionic focus) , I think it is fair to note that costs a feat for the spellcaster to pick that up, and that the psionic can typically do that spontaneously without increased casting times, and sometimes can have additional effects like vastly increasing a duration, increasing number of targets, and such.
I would rather not harp on this, but I kinda would like some response to the issue of a Paizo conversion needing to have a spell list of Core Rulebook spells rather than psionic powers. If Paizo did that, would you be still interested in the system, or is that too big of a change from what you want?
After such a long time, no I can't give ya examples. I find the whole system needlessly complex where it does not need to be. I am not sure on the number of swift or immediate spells in core 3.5 But I got to 11 in the XPH and was in the g's before I stopped counting
At the time we used it i found the system to abuse able, did not play will with other casting classes and over all made a mess of things. Ya can show me examples all day, but at the time I did indeed know the rules, kept the book real close to look things up as well. And in the end it was a hot mess, needlessly complex that did not play well with others
After 4 trys at being a subsystem that never works with core, I think it's time to try something that will work with core
As it stands the system really can not be used in AP's and well anything other then the book it's in, so it remains the red headed stepchild. I would need at lest 10 pages to even began how to use a psionic NPC. There in lays the real issue
As always YMMV
I ran a CotCT game recently, with a player who sported a Psion. Shaper Psion with Astral Construct (summon monster), Energy Ray (1d6 ray), and Entangling Ectoplasm (ranged touch to entangle for 5 rounds). Among him was also a bard, a rogue, and a fighter. Game went smoothly.
Also, as I said. Every spell in the PHB is potentially swift action. Either modified by Quicken Spell, or by a metamagic rod, they can be cast as swift actions. Thus there are in fact more potentially swift-action spells in the PHB than in the entire XPH.
A swift action is what sort of action it takes to cast it. It's no more complicated than standard, move, or full-round. You have 1 standard, 1 move, 1 swift. Some actions use a swift action, typically due to quickening, or because it's something minor to use but not as freely used as a free action. Having 1 swift action under the casting or manifesting time, is no stranger than having 1 round or full-round action next to it.
Also, the 10 page thing is bogus. Behold, I present you a 5th level Psychic Warrior NPC (with as many swift action powers I can stuff into it, just to prove a point).
Telgorn Thunderhammer - CR 5
LG Dwarf Psychic Warrior 5
Scores: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 15, 6; (+1 wis at 4th level)
Initiative: +2, Speed: 20ft;
HD: 5d8+15+8 (45.5 hp), AC: 22, Touch: 12, Flat: 20;
Fort: +6, Ref: +3, Will: +3, +2 vs Poison/Spells/Psionics;
+1 Dwarven Waraxe: +8 (1d10+3, x3);
Comp. Longbow: +6 (1d8+1, x3), mighty +1;
Skills: Concentration +10, Ride +10;
Feats: Weapon Focus (Waraxe), Toughness, Psionic Body*, Expanded Knowledge* (Astral Construct), Psionic Talent*(+2), Psionic Talent*(+3); (*: Psionic Feat)
Psionics: ML 5, PP: 22, DC 12 + Power Level;
Powers Known (*: Augmentable)
- 1st Level (1pp): Astral Construct*, Expansion*, Burst, Vigor*, Catfall*
- 2nd Level (3pp): Animal Affinity*, Hustle
Equipment: +1 Dwarven Waraxe, Full Plate Armor, Heavy Wooden Shield, Composite Longbow (+1 Mighty), Quiver with 50 arrows, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (9hp, 2);Description
Telgorn Thunderhammer is a psychic warrior of the Thunderhammer clan of dwarves. He adventures for many reasons, but mostly to leave his mark through the act of Clandreggin. He draws out his inner power to aid him in combating the evils he encounters during his travels; often believed by dwarves to be tapping into the energy that forged the world.Telgorn has little patience for snooty wizards and their fanciful pets and spells. He feels most at home next to his clansmen of warriors and paladins.
Combat Notes
Telgorn's Psionic Body grants him 2 hit points for each psionic feat he has (8hp total). He has taken the Talented feat twice (for +5pp). When he is about to go into combat, he typically begins battle by augmenting expansion (as enlarge person on self, 3pp, 5 min duration), or a fully augmented Vigor (5pp, +25 temporary Hp, 5 min duration, doesn't stack with itself). If he takes a fall, or gets tripped, he attempts to manifest Catfall (1pp) as a swift action to regain his footing or to ignore up to 10ft per PP spent (50ft, 5pp max). If he has time to prepare, he will manifest Animal Affinity twice (+4 strength, +4 constitution, enhancement bonus, 1 min / level). Once per round, as a swift action, he will manifest Burst (+10ft speed, for one round), usually before charging.When he's outnumbered or needs a flanking buddy, he will attempt to manifest an Astral Construct, which he learned with the Expanded Knowledge feat (usually a shaper 1st level power). This small construct lasts for 5 rounds (astral constructs are found here).
If hurt badly, he will attempt to manifest Hustle as a swift action (3pp) to get an additional move action to help escape, or drink one of his healing potions (9hp).
If in melee when he wishes to use a power, he will attempt to Manifest Defensively (DC 15 + power level) to avoid an attack of opportunity. If he fails, he wastes the power points spent with no effect. Remember to make a concentration check for anything that would require a concentration check for spellcasting (such as being grappled, entangled, damaged, jostled, distracted, bad weather, etc).
Now, how many people here think you could run this NPC in your games as presented, without 10 pages of stuff? Any takers?
After such a long time, no I can't give ya examples. I find the whole system needlessly complex where it does not need to be. I am not sure on the number of swift or immediate spells in core 3.5 But I got to 11 in the XPH and was in the g's before I stopped counting
At the time we used it i found the system to abuse able, did not play will with other casting classes and over all made a mess of things. Ya can show me examples all day, but at the time I did indeed know the rules, kept the book real close to look things up as well. And in the end it was a hot mess, needlessly complex that did not play well with others
After 4 trys at being a subsystem that never works with core, I think it's time to try something that will work with core
As it stands the system really can not be used in AP's and well anything other then the book it's in, so it remains the red headed stepchild. I would need at lest 10 pages to even began how to use a psionic NPC. There in lays the real issue
As always YMMV
It's.... er, possible to abuse psi (King of Smack, and a couple Schism builds). Almost invariably it's easier to abuse arcane, though (Gate-chaining, Timestop + Cloudkill, Shapechange abuse). It's harder though, and the abuses generally aren't as world-shattering.
As for easier/harder to learn, well, that's personal opinion. I think Psi is easier to pick up since it's so similar to so many consol RPGs, but I could go either way here. Someone mentioned Swift/Immediate powers; I don't know where you've been, but there's dozens of spells like that in PHB2 alone (I count 31, to be precise). I don't think that's an argument either way.
I'd say it's certainly easier to play, though. There's far, far less bookeeping, less tracking, more fluidity and adaptability, and more recycling of good base powers. I mean, there's a certain start-up cost; when you played your first mage, you probably did things wrong and broke rules, and only gradually learned to fix your mistakes. Same here. But it's fundamentally a more natural and open system.
I love the pp system. It's fluid, it's natural, it's intuitive, it's effective. I love getting to choose how much power to put into my punches, trying to figure if I should hit the zombies with a mere 5 pp Energy Missile, or go the whole 10, and having the option of a smooth gradient in between. I love how psi-disciplines work, gaining access to a series of really distinctive and unique powers. I love a lot of the psi powers. If I could, I'd run all of D&D with the psi system, convert Sorcs and Wizards and Clerics and Druids to THAT, rather than trying to shoehorn the psion into a sort of pseudo-vancian system.
THE BIG PROBLEMS WITH PSI THAT I'D LOVE TO SEE CHANGED
- Transparency. The way the Psi rules were set up, it was ambiguous. It said that psi-resistance works against magic and vice versa, but the existance of two sets of terms was inherently confusing. They should never have had Psi-Resistance, or Dispel Psionics, or Null Psionic Field. Changing the latter two to "Dispel Magic, Psionic" and "Antimagic Field, Psionic" would be a brilliant idea. The idea was to allow DMs to run them as different things, but in practice that's a pretty horrible idea in most settings. Far better to just have it as an unusual sort of magic.
- Displays. These were poorly-handled as well, IMO. They're harder to remember since they change more than the V/S/M of traditional mages, and they're the first thing most psi players and DMs tend to forget. The Verbal component could be a chant of some sort, the Somatic component could be a gesture of the sort you see in buddhism or yoga, a sort of mystic self-focus thing rather than sigils and signs. A bit of shoehorning might be necessary, but better this one little piece than the whole system.
- Psi Focus. This I could take or leave. On the one hand, it's nice to have something that gives you powers while you have it and can be blown to do nicer things for a single round at the cost of losing those constant things. It's a nice choice, and I wish there was more like that in the game. It also serves as a limiter; you can't stack Metapsi on a single power without spending massive feats, and even then you're still capped at two, and then you're without your psifocus for at least a turn. On the other... it's rather fiddledy, unnecessary, and inelegant. If something's going to be cut, I'd cut this.
And if it's no less complicated... why bother changing it to a point based system in the first place? That's my point.This is a great reason why I want to rebuild psionic characters so that they work like sorcerers; if, say, 50% or even 75% of their psionic spells are identical to the divine/arcane spells in the core book, we COULD print a psionic NPC stat block in an Adventure Path. But as long as their powers work so fundamentally differently, we'd have to reprint ALL of the powers they know and that's a sure-fire way to not get into an AP.Well, I certainly agree with the logic behind rewriting powers. If a power is almost the same as a spell, it would be easier to just make it exactly the same as the spell.
However, since you wouldn't need to hard-wire a point cost into the description of any non-augmentable power/spell, I'm still not sure how this warrants Vancian psionics.
Consider that the following...
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6th)
3rd (4/day) - suggestion
2nd (6/day) - detect thoughts, touch of idiocy
1st (7/day) - charm person, daze monster, hypnotism, magic missile
0 (at will) - daze, detect magic, flare, mage hand, message, open/close, touch of fatigue...is no less complicated than...
Psionic Spells Known (CL 6th, 45 power points)
3rd (power point cost: 5/casting) - suggestion
2nd (power point cost: 3/casting) - detect thoughts, touch of idiocy
1st (power point cost: 1/casting) - charm person, daze monster, hypnotism, magic missile
0 (at will, power point cost: none) - daze, detect magic, flare, mage hand, message, open/close, touch of fatigue
This might have already been addressed but I think what most people are getting at is that if you don't change the system then you are basically just giving us a sorcerer/wizard of a different color. Which in that aspect you are not making the concept unique. I believe the effects and names of the powers really aren't important but how you utilize the powers is. As an example, Divine magic feels different than Arcane magic due to minor changes in how it is used. For starters most Divine magic is different than Arcane. Secondly, Clerics and Druids have unique abilities to their class that further separate them from Arcane magic users. So in summary, I think what everyone is trying to get at is do what you feel will work best with the system AS LONG AS it feels unique and different from existing classes. I certainly wouldn't want to play a dressed up sorcerer just because you exchanged the word psion for it.
As an aside, the biggest reason I believe most people feel that psionics are overpowered is because they are only talked about how game breaking they can be. Yet, no one ever really talks about exactly how game breaking regular magic is because its and accepted staple to fantasy gaming. In one game I had a player do over 3k damage in a single round. While this was set up over several rounds using Delayed Blast Fireball, and utilizing several metamagic feats it was still very ridiculous in terms of damage output. As another example, I knew a player who made a Wizard with the ability to cast 20+ spells in a round which is way less than any psion could hope to achieve. Both of these examples are from players that had been playing the characters for many levels (20+) and are probably only a few of no less than a hundred such stories. Essentially, all of the game's mechanics tend to be "broken" once players reach a certain point because the resources and abilities available to a player are more numerous. I always love it when people talk about a 20+ level class vs a different 20+ level class. Classes were never meant to be balanced against each other, they were meant to be balanced against the NPCs/Monsters that exist in the game.
Also, is there a link to the psionics stuff that Dreamscarred is putting out?
You did not list any of the powers. I have a state block with little info on how to run him, I would be pissed if I paid money and that's all the info I got.
Now make a 5th level psion, with all the rules to run it and all the powers and do it in less then 2 pages. By the way the basic info from the XPH takes 5 pages I just look, thats not counting powers, feats, classes or any other non core thing
Can you do that, for a 5th level Wizard? The Magic Overview is just as intimidating. Don't make a challenge if you can't meet it yourself.
heh I had deleted that, but anything in core can reference the core book. Anything outside of core would need to be reprinted. That is the issue. Even the few powers that are just spells have diff rules and diff write ups they do not match the PHB ones. What I am saying is a guy with 5 powers is far from writing up a psion with 11 or a level 12 with 24 which you would have to reprint, and reprint how they work. The fact they do not use the same rules as the magic section in the PHB means that to really use them you need to print that section or start replacing powers with spells like they did with the monsters.
I pulled the 10 pages at random but it is not far off really. In RotRL Karzoug the Claimer took up 2 full pages to stat up with him and his one of a kind magic items, Now he was a total of 20 levels now stat up your 20 level psion with everything I need to run him in 2 pages or with in the core book.
See the issue here? To use him you would need to own yet another book + the AP , which means the AP sales poorly or you would need to print everything you could need within the AP killing a crapload of page count as every single power he knew would have to be reprinted, as well as his class info , any non core feats and so on.
Ya could split it up with the class in one books, some feats in another part, but still gonna kill a lot of page count to write up the BBEG
Edit: The reason I deleted that is 1. I have been awake way, way to long, and 2. I have not used the book in near a year, I can not recall enough of the little things to agure without getting my facts mixed up with me misremembering rules
Now, how many people here think you could run this NPC in your games as presented, without 10 pages of stuff? Any takers?
First off, given that, I don't think I could run that well, the power descriptions are mixed into his combat strategy making me think that using him in an actual battle would be difficult to say the least (If this were just a printed product the astral construct reference would need to be included rather than just linked to). But even if the powers were given in a more organized format, he would not take 10 pages (nor would any reasonably set up psionic character.
(Numbers are assuming I didn't make a error that will make me want to smack myself in the head later on)
But even abbreviating his powers (accumulating at least one error) and not picking anything significantly complicated, I think you demonstrated the significant footprint that doing this creates. Two hundred and twenty-nine words for what would amount to describing his powers
To compare the Archons in the Bestiary (At least I really do hope) have a total word count for their name, appearance, stat block, abilities, and some social information as:
Five hundred and four for Hound Archon
Six hundred and forty-seven for Lantern Archon.
Four hundred and seventy-eight for the Trumpet Archon.
(And then, just because, Five hundred and seventy-two for the Neothelid)
That two hundred words just for describing non-core feats and powers seem very large to me when compared to these monsters. And this is just a 5th level psychic warrior.
Once again, I disagree with the hyperbole that making an average psionic character requires that many pages to show of. But the adventures do have limits on space and a 5th level character asking for two hundred extra words seems quite horrible to me. I could see it for a higher level character, but I imagine the higher level Psion or Psychic Warriors are going to have much larger word counts.
Can you do that, for a 5th level Wizard? The Magic Overview is just as intimidating. Don't make a challenge if you can't meet it yourself.You did not list any of the powers. I have a state block with little info on how to run him, I would be pissed if I paid money and that's all the info I got.
Now make a 5th level psion, with all the rules to run it and all the powers and do it in less then 2 pages. By the way the basic info from the XPH takes 5 pages I just look, thats not counting powers, feats, classes or any other non core thing
Paizo adventures assume one has the Core Rulebook(s). So far they haven't assumed that people have other books (aside from random monsters and references to the creature rather than actually using them).
It is an advantage the Wizard has by being in the Core Rulebook and a disadvantage the psionic classes took on by choosing to avoid direct references to the Core Rulebooks (rather than sending things through a [Spell Name], psionic; like that spell except for as noted filter). Paizo has rarely used a non-core class and prestige classes in adventures. They were able to fit with less space needed by the psionic characters due to them using the core rulebooks most of the time.
Also, is there a link to the psionics stuff that Dreamscarred is putting out?
Part of the Dreamscarred Press Forums dealing with the Pathfinder Compatible stuff they are making.
Dreamscarred Press Downloads available for purchase from the Paizo store.
Paizo adventures assume one has the Core Rulebook(s). So far they haven't assumed that people have other books (aside from random monsters and references to the creature rather than actually using them).
It is an advantage the Wizard has by being in the Core Rulebook and a disadvantage the psionic classes took on by choosing to avoid direct references to the Core Rulebooks (rather than sending things through a [Spell Name], psionic; like that spell except for as noted filter). Paizo has rarely used a non-core class and prestige classes in adventures. They were able to fit with less space needed by the psionic characters due to them using the core rulebooks most of the time.
Granted, then. Vancian-esque systems do have the advantage of being Core, and hence more ubiquitous to the average D&D player. We're sort of forced to learn that system if you want to play this game. I still think it's a generally inferior system though, and keeping psi the way it is gives an out to players who want something different.
Even assuming the two systems are "as good" in different ways (and I still think Psi makes for better gameplay than Vancian), you're going to have people who click better with one or the other, or find one or the other fits their playstyle, gamestyle, or specific character better than the other. Maybe somebody can't cope with the bookkeeping of Vancian and doesn't mind the little mental math bits of Psi. Maybe somebody else gets confused by augmentation and doesn't mind the inflexibility of Vancian. Including both systems allows those with a preference to express that preference. The two can peacefully coexist with ease as long as you handle Transparency well, since the mechanical rulesy parts are almost purely internal to your character and not directly observable. It doesn't matter if you used 5 pp or a 3rd level spell slot for an effect, as long as the rules handle the effect well enough.
But it didn't have that impact on me, because I know that if I start attaching anything near that value of consumable items to my NPC, that from my experience, that I'm just shooting for a character that is meant to trash the party beyond what his level would indicate. And that is what the typical Psion brings the field without magic items. That a consumable laden character has similar issues to the Psion is not a counter in my view, it is a confirmation that unless the GM pulls back on the gas, he will be torching the party because that is what I would expect from the character burning magic items left and right. That once I say, my wizard has cast 10 level 9 spells in the battle, my instinct is something has run amok.
I'm was not trying to suggest that you need to spend all the wealth to reach that point, just that the money you spent didn't have to be spent in the same way as the Psion.
Ok, let me try it another way. If you have a 20th level Psion, you can shell out, assuming you have picked up the Quicken Power feat, and currently have your Psionic Focus (which you must spend a full round to gain, or spend another feat to allow you to gain it as a move action) to expend, you can pull off a 9th level power (20pp) and 7th level power (14 + 6 = 20 pp), every other round (or likely a good opening strategy). A wizard can do the same with a 9th level and 5th level spell, and instead just need spell slots (which I showed isn't difficult to get one way or another). Alternatively, a metamagic spell rod can pimp-jump higher level spells to a swift action 3/day (but this is generally outside of an NPC's WBL unless you count it as a weapon AND a magic item, which is reasonable).
With the Psion, you might be able to pull out some Crystalize (Flesh to Stone), while the Wizard might use Baleful Polymorph. If you're going strait damage, the wizard actually wins out because his 5th level spells cap out at 15d6, while the Psion's will cap at 14d6 ('cause he's paying 1pp per 1d6 on almost every damaging power; though disintegrate may work better if they would fail their save). However the wizard likely has better save DCs (Spell Focus), as Psionic Endowment requires you to expend your Psionic Focus (which you just did to manifest a quickened power in addition to paying PP).
Now, assuming they survive the first round (and the party should, easily), then the Psion could continue to manifest a power each round after for 20pp a pop. Assuming he's optimized, I said before he could pull this off 22 times before being completely useless. However, assuming he was smart, he self-buffed before the fight. If he doesn't have Psionic Contingency, the alternative would be burning through his PP faster and using that psionic focus he was going to open with to buff up quickly.
Now assuming a standard party of adventurers, it's now Psion vs World. The Psion's subject to the party's dispel magic attempts, as well as making concentration checks when taking damage, or grappled. His powers are still affected by globes of invulnerability and spell turning, or rods of absorbtion, and so forth. The only thing he doesn't have to worry about is being silenced ('cause you're a psion, not harry potter), so I'll give the psion that advantage (but the old silenced rock grenade's kinda cheap anyway).
If he can manage to survive 10 rounds, he could spend upwards to 300 power points if he kept burning points at the fastest rate he could; this includes having the psionic meditation feat to regain focus as a move action, manifesting Hustle (for extra move action) each round, and popping 20pp standard powers whenever possible. If he tries to blast them down, he could deal up to 20d6+20 fire damage per round (average 90) with a reflex save for half, then applying energy resistances or immunities. Alternatively, he could play it safe and manifest all his powers as Electricity (you get +2 to the save DC) for a flat 20d6 damage (average 70, reflex for half). He could drop 300+ PP over 10 rounds, for a total of 74d6 damage every 3 rounds (assuming you're stopping to regain your focus every other round) for an average of 259 with reflex saves to halve the damage from the 4 full-power manifestations making use of several feats, with a reflex save for half on each manifestation (with one of those manifestations being at a lesser save DC, 'cause it's just quickened).
The problem is, he won't live this long. Also, the cleric can cast Mass Heal and throw a monkey wrench into this hardcore. Or the party's wizard can ready an action to cast a pair of lightening bolts (3rd level + 7th level quickened) when the Psion begins manifesting for a total of 20d6 electricity damage, reflex for half - but now he's got to make some killer concentration checks for the damage taken during manifesting.
The fact is, the wizard can last just as long under the same conditions; and be as dangerous.
Quick Question
You said "That a consumable laden character has similar issues to the Psion is not a counter in my view, it is a confirmation that unless the GM pulls back on the gas, he will be torching the party because that is what I would expect from the character burning magic items left and right. That once I say, my wizard has cast 10 level 9 spells in the battle, my instinct is something has run amok."
Yet you claimed that the problem with Psionics was the GM had to "pull back on the gas", when really he should be trying to unleash everything he reasonably can muster against a party because his life is on the line. So, assuming the wizard has standard wealth by level for an NPC, distributed properly based on weaponry, magic items, consumables, and so forth; then by that one must agree that A) the NPC should have no such things at all, because using them is cheap or B) NPCs are broken and shouldn't be played in core because they have to willingly hold back against the players or be unfair.
Care to comment?
On a side note, I would consider playing with the psionic system with core magic BUT I would like to do it as with the psionics system. That would mean paying more PP for spells like Shocking Grasp, Fireball, and so forth. It may require some tweaking, but I would be happy to play with wizard spells with the psionics system. I'd considered writing up a few spell-to-power conversions before for that reason.
But the mechanics are important to me and many other fans of Psionics. There's a reason we herald the 3.5 psionics as the "one that got it right".
make a 5th level psion, with all the rules to run it and all the powers.
Wow man, I just posted that NPC with everything needed to run it scribbled on his notes like a monster out of a MM, off the top of my head and the SRD, and you want another one? Yeesh. Ok, let me try to fill your request.
Psionics Overview for the DM
Psionic characters have power points (PP) which they may spend to manifest their psionic powers (similar to casting spells). Here are a few things you will need to know.
1) You may not spend more than 1PP per manifester level (think caster level).
2) Powers do not have components. However, you must still make a concentration check for all conditions that would call for a concentration check for casting a spell.
3) Powers and Spells are transparent in the rules. Powers such as Dispel Psionics work on magic, and vice versa. Spell Resistance affects powers, and vice versa. Any effect that have an effect based on spells or a spell's level also affects powers equally.
4) By spending more power points (up to your manifester level limit, see rule 1) some powers can be improved (as noted in their descriptions).
5) A psionic character my hide the outward signs of manifesting a power by making a DC 15 + power level Concentration check. Failure indicates an obviously visual indication of manifesting a power (usually glowing eyes). A manifester may take 10 on this check, but not 20.Kalli Xentari(Sample Psion NPC)
LE Human Psion (Telepath) 5;
Scores: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 12; (+1 int from levels, +2 int from human, +1 con item)
Initiative: +2, Speed: 30ft;
HD: 5d6+25 (42.5 hp), AC: 16, Touch: 12, Flat: 14;
Fort: +3, Ref: +3, Will: +4;
Quarterstaff +1 (1d6-1);
Crossbow +4 (1d8, 19-20), 60ft range;
Skills: Concentration +10, Diplomacy +9, Sense Motive +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +12, Psicraft +12;
Feats: Toughness, Psionic Body*, Psionic Talent* (+2pp), Psionic Talent* (+3pp), Psionic Talent* (+4 PP), Expanded Knowledge* (Astral Construct); (*: Psionic Feat)
Psionics: ML 5, PP: 44, DC 14 + Power Level;
Powers Known (*: Augmentable)
- 1st Level (1pp): Energy Ray*, Astral Construct*, Charm*, Empathy*, Vigor*, Grease
- 2nd Level (3pp): Ego Whip*, Energy Push*, Read Thoughts*, Suggestion*
- 3rd Level (5pp): Dispel Magic/Psionics*, Energy Bolt*
Equipment: Mithril chain shirt, buckler, dorje of energy ball(5 charges,*); (*: Described below)Character Information
Kalli is a human telepath hailing from nation of Cheliax. Early in her life she found she had a certain way with people, which reached deeper than simple social graces. As she grew, she felt power stir within her and her mind, and she slowly began developing the ability to manipulate the world around her in marvelous ways. She has since used her powers to become quite wealthy, and keeps a number of psionically influenced lackies around her for protection, and sometimes pleasure.She is often best used as a secret villain in an adventure or campaign, or perhaps as a potential ally to the players. As an opponent, it's a lot of fun to have her use her social skills and psionic powers to influence others against the party from the sidelines or behind the scenes.
Encounter Information
Kalli is typically found with four 1st level human warriors under her employ, or her psionic charms. If pressed into combat, she usually starts off by trying to charm the most heavily armed attacker, while hiding behind her warriors if possible. She will attempt to do this three times before she begins shooting energy rays at those out in the open (to avoid penalties for cover or firing into melee). If two or more of her guards are killed or disabled, or her hit points fall below half, she will attempt to escape by casting grease, then casting energy bolt down alleyways or key points during her escape. If she feels she is in great danger, she will begin using her dorje to shoot energy balls while fleeing as well.When she manifests her powers in a social situation, she may make a DC 15 + power level Concentration check to avoid displaying any outward sign of using her powers. She does so with Charm, Read Thoughts, and Empathy. She may take 10 on this check when not distracted or in danger. Failing means her eyes glow brilliant red. She doesn't bother with powers such as energy ray, grease, and other flashy powers which have an obviously visual effect.
Notes
This character makes use of the rules from the Pathfinder Psionics Handbook (doesn't really exist). If you do not have this book, make the following adjustments.Kalli's psionic powers
Replace her psionic powers with the following spells, and change them as indicated here.
1st Level Powers (cost 1pp)
- Charm: As Charm Person spell.
- Energy Ray: As ray of frost except it deals 1d6+1 damage per PP spent, up to 5d6+5 cold damage.
- Astral Construct: As summon nature's ally I, II, or III (1 PP, 3PP, or 5PP respectively).
- Grease: As Grease spell.
- Vigor: Use the following rules. Cast Time: 1 standard action, Target: Personal, Effect: You gain 5 temporary hit points for each power point you spend on this power, up to a maximum of 5pp (25 temporary hp). Temporary hit points do not stack, nor do multiple manifestations of this power.
- Empathy: Use the following rules. Cast Time: 1 standard action, Range: 30ft, Area: 30ft radius center on you. Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min/level. Effect: You gain a +2 insight bonus on any Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive checks that you make in the round when you cease concentrating on this power.
2nd Level Powers (cost 3pp)
- Energy Push: Replace with Acid Arrow.
- Ego Whip: Replace with Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
- Suggestion: As Suggestion.
- Read Thoughts: As Detect Thoughts.
3rd Level Powers (cost 5pp)
- Energy Bolt: As Lightening bolt (5pp, 5d6 electricity damage).
- Dispel Magic/Psionics: As Dispel Magic (1d20 + PP spent on caster level check).Items
Treat her Dorje as a wand of fireball with the same number of charges.
Phew, that was a good bit o' typing. Took me a bit to come up with a cool character concept and ways to throw her into something instead of just being a pile o' numbers.
PS - I mentioned this topic to my 11yo brother, and said some people on here think Psionics is overpowered. I kid you not, his face was priceless as he said "Have they ever seen a wizard or sorcerer!?"
Haha, that's my lil' man. Had 'im playin' this game since he was like...4?
Paizo adventures assume one has the Core Rulebook(s). So far they haven't assumed that people have other books (aside from random monsters and references to the creature rather than actually using them).
It is an advantage the Wizard has by being in the Core Rulebook and a disadvantage the psionic classes took on by choosing to avoid direct references to the Core Rulebooks (rather than sending things through a [Spell Name], psionic; like that spell except for as noted filter). Paizo has rarely used a non-core class and prestige classes in adventures. They were able to fit with less space needed by the psionic characters due to them using the core rulebooks most of the time.
Keep in mind this would be true for ANY expansion Paizo ever would put out, in one form or another. Also, in the Red Hand of Doom book by WotC (very much like an AP in some ways, closest thing to that quality by WotC), most NPCs are made up of core classes with the odd special enemy from some random book here or there, or with a prestige class from a complete book or something. They just noted the abilities that were important.
ALSO!! ^_^
The previous point was, Psionics is balanced. If Paizo wouldn't be using actual psions for their NPCs in adventure paths, that would be fine by me. Considering it's been mentioned that a traditional caster can be themed like a psion, but using the Sorcerer class, then it sounds like that alone fixes all the problems.
Example
1) You say Psion NPCs are too powerful 'cause they nova.
A) Paizo uses Core Only in their products, so you don't need to worry 'bout it.
2) What about the "hassle" of needing the Psi-Book for your adventure?
A) Let them put their "psychics" in the book as flavored sorcerers. People that have the Psionics Handbook gets to play their psions using their system, but the adventure won't need it. This is really no different than how creatures have various spell-like abilities that are psionically themed (like mind flayers).
Having the book would give the option to play the - WELL BALANCED - characters using that system, while the DM can continue to use the X/day system for the NPCs.
I personally wouldn't mind a collaboration between Paizo and Dreamscarred Press to release a Paizo approved Psionics Handbook. I doubt the likelihood of that happening is good, but I can wish.
Ashiel I was not gonna say anything but failed my will save.
You keep makeing the other sides point, That last statblock is near un-usable, it would be in a published book and you still had to replace 10 of your 12 powers just to make it work, which is the point the other side is making
If it was me making that adventure with that statblock, he would just be a level 5 wizard as it's less confusing and less space and does the same thing. I can not think of anyone who would publish that block as it stands it's just to confusing and still does not address the issues of not having the rules or knowing just how psionics work, which is a must to be in a published format
You said "That a consumable laden character has similar issues to the Psion is not a counter in my view, it is a confirmation that unless the GM pulls back on the gas, he will be torching the party because that is what I would expect from the character burning magic items left and right. That once I say, my wizard has cast 10 level 9 spells in the battle, my instinct is something has run amok."
Yet you claimed that the problem with Psionics was the GM had to "pull back on the gas", when really he should be trying to unleash everything he reasonably can muster against a party because his life is on the line. So, assuming the wizard has standard wealth by level for an NPC, distributed properly based on weaponry, magic items, consumables, and so forth; then by that one must agree that A) the NPC should have no such things at all, because using them is cheap or B) NPCs are broken and shouldn't be played in core because they have to willingly hold back against the players or be unfair.
Care to comment?
My comment would be that presented character didn't seem to be distributed properly. Looking back, I now realize what you did with attaching price reductions to his equipment for having the item creation feat. I would say that, you took the NPC rules and abused them heavily to get that result. It does sort of seem that you are playing down every advantage the Psion character has, while inflating every advantage the Wizard has.
I'm going to save you some time and tell me that throwing yet more numbers at me isn't going to have any significant effect, as I think that numbers can easily be used to show what the person using them wants. I done my best to read what you have been giving me, but overall, to me, it has not be convincing. I don't believe you have any magic bullet to win this argument and neither do I. In trade I'm not going to go on about the ability to Nova.
On a side note, I would consider playing with the psionic system with core magic BUT I would like to do it as with the psionics system. That would mean paying more PP for spells like Shocking Grasp, Fireball, and so forth. It may require some tweaking, but I would be happy to play with wizard spells with the psionics system. I'd considered writing up a few spell-to-power conversions before for that reason.
I've thought about this and quickly fell out of love with the idea as that brings similar problems to having a very different spell selection. I can't think of a way of doing what you suggest without running into the issue of word count in NPC stat blocks. If you can suggest a way to do it without an incredible boost in word count (like the other stat blocks you presented), I would like to see it.
But, if what I think is true, and they have to use magic spells as written (or some different system altogether), why should Paizo be trying to appease you, when you are going to dismiss their product anyway because it can't meet your demands?
Right now, assuming many others share that view, I think that the greatest barrier to Paizo ever producing Psionic material would be the psionic fans (who want a system more like XPH) themselves. Because, what they want, Paizo can't do, and what Paizo can do, they don't want.
Keep in mind this would be true for ANY expansion Paizo ever would put out, in one form or another. Also, in the Red Hand of Doom book by WotC (very much like an AP in some ways, closest thing to that quality by WotC), most NPCs are made up of core classes with the odd special enemy from some random book here or there, or with a prestige class from a complete book or something. They just noted the abilities that were important.
ALSO!! ^_^
The previous point was, Psionics is balanced. If Paizo wouldn't be using actual psions for their NPCs in adventure paths, that would be fine by me. Considering it's been mentioned that a traditional caster can be themed like a psion, but using the Sorcerer class, then it sounds like that alone fixes all the problems.
Example
1) You say Psion NPCs are too powerful 'cause they nova.
A) Paizo uses Core Only in their products, so you don't need to worry 'bout it.
2) What about the "hassle" of needing the Psi-Book for your adventure?
A) Let them put their "psychics" in the book as flavored sorcerers. People that have the Psionics Handbook gets to play their psions using their system, but the adventure won't need it. This is really no different than how creatures have various spell-like abilities that are psionically themed (like mind flayers).Having the book would give the...
Yes, this would be true for any expansion Paizo put out. But one might notice the Oracle preview on the blog last week. While it had to reprint it's class abilities, the spell descriptions didn't. I could see that character in a Pathfinder adventure. I can't say the same for most of the psionic characters.
Since you repeated it, I shall repeat my response. I really dislike the idea that a psionic Sorcerer is enough for me. That isn't what I want of feel is required for the material.
1) Yes, I think they have that capability in general.
A) Actually they do, two adventures used a OGL class and another used a set of prestige classes.
2)
A) Still hate that idea. And Paizo could make a set of spontaneous and/or Vancian casters, publish them in a book, and use them in the adventure providing all the information needed. People who prefer the point-system can continue to use that instead and the adventure would not be affected. This is no different than how there are psionic themed creatures with spell-like abilities.
With the views presented I don't think that a Dreamscarred Press/Paizo fusion would go anywhere at all. It would start, live, and die within a debate whether or not to use the point system.
You mention that the Expanded Psionics Handbook is the most balanced system. I would say that there are other people who believe that is the not the truth just as much as you believe what you say. Repeating over and over takes us no where. Me splashing, "because the XPH is the least balanced system" (don't believe) into various posts should do nothing to affect your opinion. Why should your comments affect others? Also, saying it is the truth isn't a valid response as I'm pretty sure other people think what they are saying is the truth as well.
Now, it may not be a problem for people who "properly" use the system. But for my games, I don't feel this is a indicator of balance when I have to worry that much about keeping the psionic characters in line.
Any system that is not properly used can cause issues with misrepresentation of its power. ToB was notorius for people playing it incorrectly and it getting a bad rep. Even spells when used incorrectly such as stacking empower spell and maximize spell to multiply the maximized dice by 150% was an issue in one of my games. You can't blame people doing it wrong on the system.
The only time the nova can happen all the time is when the player figures out he only gets one or two battles per day so he saves his powers for those battles, but the same logic could apply to spells. I have yet to see a psion do something nova-wise that I could not do with a caster.
Even assuming the two systems are "as good" in different ways (and I still think Psi makes for better gameplay than Vancian), you're going to have people who click better with one or the other, or find one or the other fits their playstyle, gamestyle, or specific character better than the other.
I would say that each system has different advantages, I would say that another book with an array of variant casting methods would be preferable to staking out psionics as the system that must not be touched.
Every psionics system in the history of D&D has been point-based.
Is that true for OD&D and AD&D First Edition?
Any system that is not properly used can cause issues with misrepresentation of its power. ToB was notorius for people playing it incorrectly and it getting a bad rep. Even spells when used incorrectly such as stacking empower spell and maximize spell to multiply the maximized dice by 150% was an issue in one of my games. You can't blame people doing it wrong on the system.
Yes, but those are mistakes in interpreting the system. The post that you linked to added that certain game play styles are not appropriate for the system. To me these are two different things.
ya know then again, this is Pathfinder now, not D&D so it's time to try something that works will with core for once maybe