A psion will lose a good deal of power from being cuffed and blindfolded, it seems simple to modify that to not letting the manifest at all that way. Or maybe give them 'self' powers only (which might let them escape, with the right powers).
Wasn't there a second edition rule that they couldn't manifest while wearing a metal helmet? You could bring that back too.
...changing the system away from points is not the major change.Maybe, but I'd have to convert spell slots back into power points every time I want to make use of any ability of the elan player character race, the mindfeeder weapon property, the psychic weapon property, or two entire categories of psionic items (cognizance crystals and psicrowns), as well as the psionic rules from Magic of Incarnum and various third party psionic sourcebooks.
If that is the case you would have to also have to convert spell slots into spell points anytime you wish to use another spellcasting class with something that refers to points.
Also I would have to convert almost all psionic monsters to make them work with many of the things you list as well. If there can be psionic monsters that can't benefit from these ability, isn't it understandable for there to be versions of the referenced psionic classes that don't benefit from them either?
I was talking 3.5 really, in that case he stands alone there. Under the new classes there amy be issues for them, but binding and gaging them should stop almost all ablitys. Not so with psions
Edit: yep in 2e there was a helmet rule.
You guys are really getting far into right field with all this worrying over rules that will most likely change. Who cares who can cast/manifest while wrapped in duct tape & bailing line under the OLD, OLD be the operative words, rules.
Look, you want psionics to actually appear in an AP? Then you will be playing whatever Paizo puts out. Otherwise, you can just convert whatever material Paizo puts in an AP to whatever rules you want to use.
The main thing is that if Paizo can't put psionics in an AP, with minimal reprinting of rules, then it will not be supported beyond the rule book. That would mean Paizo would most likely NOT print any psionics rules.
I personally will not use psionics unless it is seamless with core rules.
Good points all. And seamless with core is the issue for many, I would like it to stop being the red headed step child. And seamless is how that happens
Dammit Meepo, are you gonna get on my dev thread and send me your email or just keep teasing me with comments which fully embody the goals I hope to achieve? :D
Psions have d6(assuming Paizo's model is followed) hit points. Once they are pinned just knock them out.
Edit: If psionics are held to the same standards as spells they should be upgraded to the same power level however. That means me being able to apply 25 metamagics if I can find a way to do it. 25 was an exaggeration but you get my point.
|
I was thinking over this whole thing yesteray from a player´s point of view. And realized that most classes have an specific archetypical goal to represent for hose who play them (the flying blasting wizard, the undead erradicating cleric, the animal shifting fruid etc). And those who do play the class expect to get that feel eventually. Howrver a great advantage the psion had was that having a unique system allowed them to achieve said feel from the get go (level 1), which makes them, reazonably so, so appealing for those looking for said archetype.
However, as stated before, most classes take a while to achieve said flavor with their mechanics and psions should not be the exception.
Now, I know a lot of people hellbent on maintining psionics just as they are will argue this for the sake of argument (and I understand their position as reluctancy to change is part of the human condition). But I do ask if it would be at leats reazonable to accept a system that using a vancian skeleton would EVENTUALLY (through their career) reach the feel and mechanical versatility of the current psions?
Psions have d6(assuming Paizo's model is followed) hit points. Once they are pinned just knock them out.
Edit: If psionics are held to the same standards as spells they should be upgraded to the same power level however. That means me being able to apply 25 metamagics if I can find a way to do it. 25 was an exaggeration but you get my point.
I am gonna agree here, It should use the same system structer with many of the same "spells" as other caster if they fit, as such I can still see it's schools being disciplines and it should and would have meta feats that worked just like other casters.
Really in the long run moving it to a more core like system helps top bring it out of the rain and out of red headed step child statues
Good points all. And seamless with core is the issue for many, I would like it to stop being the red headed step child. And seamless is how that happensAt which point it also stops being psionics, at least for a psionics grognard like myself.
I seem to be in the minority here, but for me, being point-based is one of the primary defining features of psionics. If it isn't point-based, it's just an update of the mentalist school of magic from AD&D 2nd Edition (which was just a bunch of wizard spells that mimicked various psionic powers).
I understand that, from the persepctive of a DM or an adventure developer, power points are sometimes more annoying to track. However, as Blazej pointed out in his last post, there are plenty of psionic monsters that have powers without using power points. So you can just use NPCs of that sort as psionic adversaries if it makes things easier.
(...)
About being point based defining what IS Pisionic, it's easy to see that when looking at how the people on Wizard is creating the 4th Edition Psion: HE STILL USES POWER POINTS!
(a friend of mine that plays 4th talked about it and I searched on google for the class preview of Psion)
Last point.
Why are power points more annoying to track than Vancian Magic???
I can't see how "I have 20 points left." is more complicate than "I have 5 first level spells, plus 4 second level spells, plus 2 third level spells and two uses of ability X".
Last point.
Why are power points more annoying to track than Vancian Magic???
I can't see how "I have 20 points left." is more complicate than "I have 5 first level spells, plus 4 second level spells, plus 2 third level spells and two uses of ability X".
It's a sub system of a sub system that requires you to publishe a page or 3 on how it works every time you use it, + pages for every power with full write ups. The you are expected to recall how this new sub system works.
I fail to see how "I have 5 first level powers, plus 4 second level powers, plus 2 third level powers and two uses of ability X"
make it feel un psionic.
I understand the general sentiment. People WANT psionics to be different. It is at the same time, its selling point & downfall. Uber grognards, on the subject, have always had a different feel for psionics in their D&D. That is not the case in other gaming systems, mostly. The 'feel' they want is really, "Magic without crutches." That means no material components, focuses, etc. The power is all you, baby. I can really sympathize, from the roleplay standpoint. Problem is, this is usually a nightmare from the rules balance standpoint. The 'different' argument could be placed on divine vs arcane, too. With the flavor presented in many D&D based novels, a newcomer would really expect some more pronounced differences in divine & arcane magic, than what is potrayed in the rules now. I could argue that there should be some penalties/bonuses between the interaction of the two styles. If that rule was core, then adding psionics to the mix might be a little less painful. Maybe, as a way to placate some of the previously mentioned grognards, there could have some optional rules put out sometime (say a PDF online after a Psionics Guide is released), that shows a system for using power point for ALL casters. An optional guide can let grognards (don't you just like the term grognard?) apply power points to any psionic NPCs in published APs. Still won't correct the perceived problem of powers just being some of the same spells available to other casters, but what can you do?
Ya know I have started fooling with this , and I am thinking psionic powers should have compontes like spells.
All powers should at lest have a :Visual, verbal, or sesmonic component to it. They also should gain oth level ability and discipline powers
Am thinking some powers will be "spells" with them taking some spell into the new "schools" There is alot of powers that work close to a spell just written different with a diff name. This will also mean psionics powers will get shuffled about and some will get stronger, as will higher level powers
I think it could work well with the system and still keep it feeling different
About being point based defining what IS Pisionic, it's easy to see that when looking at how the people on Wizard is creating the 4th Edition Psion: HE STILL USES POWER POINTS!
(a friend of mine that plays 4th talked about it and I searched on google for the class preview of Psion)
However, from what I recall, it is still not a power point system like Expanded Psionics Handbook. It is not a spell point system, rather, a system where one can use points to augment powers.
If that is all that is necessary, then I would suggest that a Vancian Psion that had a number of points like a Monk which could be spent to cast an improved spell.
Although there is nothing wrong with this, just having points is not the same as a spell point system.
grognard
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
About being point based defining what IS Pisionic, it's easy to see that when looking at how the people on Wizard is creating the 4th Edition Psion: HE STILL USES POWER POINTS!
(a friend of mine that plays 4th talked about it and I searched on google for the class preview of Psion)
However, from what I recall, it is still not a power point system like Expanded Psionics Handbook. It is not a spell point system, rather, a system where one can use points to augment powers.
If that is all that is necessary, then I would suggest that a Vancian Psion that had a number of points like a Monk which could be spent to cast an improved spell.
Although there is nothing wrong with this, just having points is not the same as a spell point system.
I agree with you here. It's very different from having a spell point system, however the psion use a far different mechanic than the rest of classes.
I guess I would like a new psionic system that stickies with what psionic is (IMO): a flexible char, able to power-up his power with power points! (too much power in a sentence. :P ). Maybe you could do this with:- a guy that casts on the fly like a sorcerer,
- gains power at same levels as a wizard
- and which power could be augmented with some type of points to do greater stuff.
This way you could have "power slots per level" stuff that seems more like core AND the "power points/augment" psion combination.
Adding some mechanic to break high level slots into lower ones and vice-versa and you got a Psion!
I think this could work.
Someone has any thoughts about this???
Spontaneous sorcerer casting at wizard progression sounds GREAT. And not unbalanced at all whatsoever. Throw some class features on top of that an everyone will wanna play it. (literally anyone would have to be blind to play a wizard or a sorcerer with that thing around)
Yeah.
Of course the powers you could use should be balanced to not transform that thing in a really freaking omgwtf mighty class!
Spontaneous sorcerer casting at wizard progression sounds GREAT. And not unbalanced at all whatsoever. Throw some class features on top of that an everyone will wanna play it. (literally anyone would have to be blind to play a wizard or a sorcerer with that thing around)Yeah.
Of course the powers you could use should be balanced to not transform that thing in a really freaking omgwtf mighty class!
yep I would go sorc number of powers per day but the powers must be balances, some will need moved in level, some buffed some nerfed and some just gone
Psionics represent the idea that a "caster" has a certain amount of collective power.
Vanican caster represents that a caster can cast so many spells of this level and so many spells of that level.
I would not change psionics because they are still less troublesome than magic to deal with, and I dont want vanican psionics. I might as well use magic at that point. I wish the sorcerer worked on power points. It would make more sense than limiting it to X spells of a certain level per day.
PS: I also wish psionics used charisma since its something you are born with, and not something that is learned.
grognardYou keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
As a grognard myself, I do know what it means. Crumudgen, 'Old F@rt', pig headed (to some), conservative, etc.
Psionics represent the idea that a "caster" has a certain amount of collective power.
Vanican caster represents that a caster can cast so many spells of this level and so many spells of that level.
I would not change psionics because they are still less troublesome than magic to deal with, and I dont want vanican psionics. I might as well use magic at that point. I wish the sorcerer worked on power points. It would make more sense than limiting it to X spells of a certain level per day.
PS: I also wish psionics used charisma since its something you are born with, and not something that is learned.
I disagree with cha as almost every time it's ever been used it is a learned skill.
Also psionics is power of the mind not collective power. Power points are not a must have or it's not psionics. Many many systems do phyic powers with out the points they are not must haves
yep I would go sorc number of powers per day but the powers must be balances, some will need moved in level, some buffed some nerfed and some just goneSpontaneous sorcerer casting at wizard progression sounds GREAT. And not unbalanced at all whatsoever. Throw some class features on top of that an everyone will wanna play it. (literally anyone would have to be blind to play a wizard or a sorcerer with that thing around)Yeah.
Of course the powers you could use should be balanced to not transform that thing in a really freaking omgwtf mighty class!
Exactly.
Actually the thing that really deserves some atention on psionics are some powers that (as well as some spells from 3.5) are misundertood or simple off balance (and as you said some are weaker than expected).Ahh. And One think that would do a big job is making the discipline powers really exclusive, so you can't have Schism, Tornado Blast and Astral Construct on the same character.
There was a feat - Versatile Spellcaster - that allowed you use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.
Something like that as a class feature maybe...
yep I would go sorc number of powers per day but the powers must be balances, some will need moved in level, some buffed some nerfed and some just goneSpontaneous sorcerer casting at wizard progression sounds GREAT. And not unbalanced at all whatsoever. Throw some class features on top of that an everyone will wanna play it. (literally anyone would have to be blind to play a wizard or a sorcerer with that thing around)Yeah.
Of course the powers you could use should be balanced to not transform that thing in a really freaking omgwtf mighty class!
Exactly.
Actually the thing that really deserves some atention on psionics are some powers that (as well as some spells from 3.5) are misundertood or simple off balance (and as you said some are weaker than expected).Ahh. And One think that would do a big job is making the discipline powers really exclusive, so you can't have Schism, Tornado Blast and Astral Construct on the same character.
There was a feat - Versatile Spellcaster - that allowed you use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.
Something like that as a class feature maybe...
What I am doing and thinking about is arranging all powers into displins as all are labeled as such. So much like a wizard when your pick a discipline 2 are barred from you(harder to use)
One thing while looking why can't stuff like astral construct work just like summon monster? Just state that the "construct" can look how you want but fits one of the listed stats. You add a bit of fluff to i to make it workable but it would still mechanically be summon monster
You could work something like so
Astral Construct
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Shaper 1
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Components: Vocal, Sermonic
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One created creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
This power creates one extraplanar construct of solidified ectoplasm from your subconses that attacks your enemies. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. As a free action, you can mentally direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The construct acts normally on the last round of the power’s duration and dissipates at the end of its turn.
The spell creates one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10-1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell. It may look however the Psion wishes
When you use Creation power to create a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a power of that type. Creatures on Table 10-1 marked with an "*" are created with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature. Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. crafting these creatures makes the power type match your alignment
Good points all. And seamless with core is the issue for many, I would like it to stop being the red headed step child. And seamless is how that happensAt which point it also stops being psionics, at least for a psionics grognard like myself.
I seem to be in the minority here, but for me, being point-based is one of the primary defining features of psionics. If it isn't point-based, it's just an update of the mentalist school of magic from AD&D 2nd Edition (which was just a bunch of wizard spells that mimicked various psionic powers).
I understand that, from the persepctive of a DM or an adventure developer, power points are sometimes more annoying to track. However, as Blazej pointed out in his last post, there are plenty of psionic monsters that have powers without using power points. So you can just use NPCs of that sort as psionic adversaries if it makes things easier.
I did, because power points are a defining feature of psionics from the player's side of the GM screen. Ultimately, as far as psionics are concerned, I could care less what monster stats look like, or how psionic abilities get assigned to NPCs in adventures. When I'm on the player's side of the GM screen, I do not consider any class to be psionic unless it has point-based resource management to go along with its flavor. (And no, I don't consider soulknives to be a psionic class in any way. Tacking on extraneous psionic fluff does not a psionic class make.)
For me, if so-called psionic rules do not allow me to have the same play experience, as a player, that I've been having for a couple decades now, they are not psionics. Psionics, to me (and at least a few other psionics grognards), are about a specific 'feel.'
And by 'feel,' I do not mean fluff. Everyone always talks about fluff and crunch being the two elements that together make up the game. Meanwhile, something that seems oft...
I agree with most of what you have to say, particularly on the interplay of fluff and mechanics. For years, I have been trying to argue that mechanics and flavor are not discrete from one another and that two classes with different mechanics, but same fluff, are going to have a different flavor. For me, at least, mechanics informs flavor to a significant extent. Alas, this appears to be a receding view and game systems seem to be moving away from recognizing this.
A Vancian system, as much as I like it for magic, is definitely not something I would want as mechanics underlying psionics and thus influencing the meta-flavor (heh, that's a new word) of the psionic classes. A point system, by contrast, does fit the bill. That said, although I think a point system provides a sufficient 'underpinning' of psionic flavor, I do not necessarily think it is the only system that could do so and can imagine various other systems that could do so (an at-will system based on psionic skill-checks [and appropriately reduced power to reflect it], for example).
The debate, however, seems squarely fixated on a Vancian versus a point system. If these two are the only potential options for psionics, I would vote for the point system a thousand times over a Vancian system.
Disclaimer: I should note that I care little about whether Psionic characters will appear in any official adventures, since as a Dungeon Master/Game Master/Path Master I tend to run my own settins, campaigns and adventures.
I did, because power points are a defining feature of psionics from the player's side of the GM screen. Ultimately, as far as psionics are concerned, I could care less what monster stats look like, or how psionic abilities get assigned to NPCs in adventures. When I'm on the player's side of the GM screen, I do not consider any class to be psionic unless it has point-based resource management to go along with its flavor. (And no, I don't consider soulknives to be a psionic class in any way. Tacking on extraneous psionic fluff does not a psionic class make.)
I would then suggest that if Paizo did do a set of Vancian or spontaneous-casting psionic characters, that it could serve as NPCs and monsters for the GM's side of the screen.
Other than that I understand your argument, it is just that I don't feel a point system is psionic, or at the very least more psionic than a Vancian caster. I do agree that feel is important to the implementation for the class, I don't think that a psionic feel requires a total point system.
To steer the discussion away from the type of underlying mechanical system, how do you all guys feel about what Psionics should be allowed to do and what it shouldn't be allowed to do?
I think that certainly telepathic powers, telekinesis-type powers, powers that provide sensory enhancement, as well as various self-enhancement powers are highly appropriate for psionics. Much less appropriate , in my opinion, are powers like Astral Construct, or the various Psionic Teleport powers and I wouldn't mind seeing all of these removed. I do think that restrictions define something as much as possibilities and Psionics probably ought to be restricted from doing some things magic can do (especially if they don't have the right feel for Psionics, despite attempts at re-flavoring them from their arcane versions). Optimally, magic would also be prevented from doing some things Psionics can do, but it is sort of late in the design process for that - it would have to have been accounted for from the start.
What I really dislike is the energy blaster, fire-starting sure fine...balls of energy? energy ray? crystal energy rays? No. I also dislike the astral creations but can live with em.
I would also like to see the new age crystal orgy gone or cute back alot. I want masters of the mind and body not a crystal monger
What I really dislike is the energy blaster, fire-starting sure fine...balls of energy? energy ray? crystal energy rays? No. I also dislike the astral creations but can live with em.
I would also like to see the new age crystal orgy gone or cute back alot. I want masters of the mind and body not a crystal monger
I am in complete agreement - the energy blaster is just so... unpsionic. Not all energy powers are equally bad - I can imagine a psionicist shooting lightning, but if he projects say acid that's another matter.
Crystals are also something I would prefer to see gone.
To be honest, there is little I would say is wrong in the hands of a psionic character. While my mind first jumps to mind reading and control, but I can see a psionic causing a nearby building to explode with a ball of fire, shoot lighting bolts from their hands, and freezing a person by moving the heat in their body somewhere else followed by causing another person to melt from the inside out by making their body more acidic.
I think I can recall some fictional characters that I would describe as using psionic teleportation and I have been considering psions that create imaginary creatures with a thought.
While there are certainly some things that I might not think appropriate, overall I can see reasons for psions doing many of the things wizards can do (although some might be harder or easier to do).
I'm similarly fine with crystals. I don't think there needs to be a focus on crystals to the exclusion of all others, but I would think it is fine as yet another option.
|
I think I can recall some fictional characters that I would describe as using psionic teleportation and I have been considering psions that create imaginary creatures with a thought.
In my readings, teleportation (particularly apportation) has been associated with the parapsychological / psychic realm *far* longer than it has with the more recently popularized fantasy wizards. (Gandalf sure didn't teleport around, he rode a horse, but these days, people think nothing of Harry Potter being able to zip around with 'flue powder' or 'disapparate' himself.)
Teleportation is one of quite a few psychic / sci-fi concepts that has been poached shamelessly by 'magic-users,' to the point where now you can find people claiming that psionics is trying to 'steal the wizards tricks,' which is at least one definition of ironic...
As for creating psychic creatures, tulpa or thoughtforms are probably the best known version, but you can find the same concept in phenomena called sendings, conjures, duppies, fetches, etc.
The astral construct is generally based on the practice of ectoplasmic materialization or manifestation, from around the 19th-20th century turn, in which a goopy or filmy substance (I believe this is the original use of the term ectoplasm, which in reality was probably glue, silk or simply smoke in most cases) was apparently extruded from one or several of a psychic medium's facial orifices, and then coalesced into the form of a spirit guide (i.e. assistant in a white robe).
Google image search shows plenty of examples, most very old, some Brazilian.
|
|
As a parting thought, you could probably make the sorcerer “warlock-like” by removing all spells beyond cantrips, change the cantrips into spell-like abilities, bump up the powers usable 3+ times per day to usable at will, make the bonus spells available at one sorcerer level lower, and turn the bonus spells into spell-like abilities that are usable once per day plus an additional use when the next bonus spell is available (in other words, the first bonus spell is usable once per day at 2nd level, twice per day at 4th level, three times per day at 6th level,...
That's a pretty decent suggestion. A 'telekinetic' Warlock could have mage hand, mending, ray of frost and open/close usable at will (perhaps a fire damage variation on ray of frost?), while a 'telepathic' Warlock would use message, ghost sound, lullaby and / or daze.
The 'Eldritch Blast' would come in several modes, from the telepaths mental blast to the telekinetics hurled objects or bull-rush-blast to the touch-range life-force manipulations of the psychometabolicist.
Teleportation effects could be folded into the kineticist, while Clairsentience could be combined with aspects of Psychocreativity to make a fourth variation, all about seeing through 'the illusion of reality' allowing them to combine extrasensory powers with some illusory/shadow-conjuration type effects, as they attempt to substitute their opponents reality with a nightmarish one of their own devising.
This would result in four very different 'Warlocks.'
One uses communications and control effects, similar to enchantment spells (and a few divinations, such as telepathy) for the most part, along with 'mental blasts' that would likely inflict only nonlethal damage, unless modified to be lethal by a later invocation, but have an array of mind-affecting options like fearful blast, dazing blast, etc. Most abilities would be based off of enchantment spells (barring spells like telepathic bond, and some illusion/phantasms and necromancy/fears).
Another uses telekinetic projectiles, temperature manipulations, telekinetic effects to bull rush / throw people, wards off physical attacks and eventually learns to fly and even teleport. Abilities would be based off of transmutation effects, some abjuration effects (warding off energy damage or arrows), some evocation effects (specifically related to creating light, heat or cold, but never to the extent of throwing fireballs around?), and some conjuration effects (telekinetically assembling matter, and teleporation effects).
The third practices mind over body and manipulations of flesh and life-force, having limited healing ability, and the ability to cause harm with a touch, as well as various personal shapeshifting effects and physical defensive abilities (granting self energy resistances) that can later be applied to allies as well, or extend to damaging effects applied to others. Unlike the other three, this one is all touch range... Abilities would come from many Transmutation spells (physical buffs and debuffs, as well as shapechanging / transformative effects like Enlarge Person), some necromancy spells (that drain physical abilities like Ray of Enfeeblement or Touch of Fatigue, or the various Inflict Wounds spells) and some Conjuration (healing) spells.
The final 'Psychic Warlock' option combines clairsentient and reality-warping effects, with most effects altering their own sensations and hostile effects targetting a foes senses, causing them to perceive (and, eventually, be very really hurt by) phantasmal / shadowy forces. Abilities would come from Divination spells, as well as some Illusion (shadow) spells, with a dash of utility stuff like Dimensional Anchor and Dispel Magic from various schools, reflecting the Seers increasing ability to 'play with the rules.'
None of this would replace actual Psions or Psychics, which would be best dealt with by updating and 'pathfinderizing' the 3.5 SRD rules, IMO, but would offer a few more alternatives for a psychic-feeling set of classes.
Porting them into the 'fluff' of Golarion, I'd go with names like;
Geist (Avistan/Garund) or Hathbhuvana (Vudra), Mastery of the World (meant as an insult), limbs that defy land/space, 'hand moving stone'
Physic (Avistan/Garund) or Garajala (Vudra), the shapers of flesh, the Clay of Creation, 'body like water'
Mesmerist (Avistan/Garund) or Soachira (Vudra), heart and mind, the Seat of the Soul, 'thoughts on the wind'
Seer (Avistan/Garund) or Nayanbaru (Vudra), the Halls of Seeing (or Sensation), 'eyes of fire'
The Vudrans schools would consider the telekinetics the lowest of the low, trapped in a lesser state, only affecting the material world external to themselves. The healers / shifters would be only a step above them, at least respected somewhat for the usefulness of their art and their step towards awareness of Self. The telepaths and clears would bicker over who is the most spiritually advanced, with the telepaths saying that the clears have only been further trapped by crude sensations in the illusion of the world, while the clears say that the mind-readers are trapped in a prison of their own self-love, the perception of Self As All. No matter what they bicker, telekinetics are still in hot demand for battlefield and civic construction duties, so they don't mind much that their ivory tower cousins look down on them and see them as 'less spiritually advanced.'
Instead of psicrystals, a Vudran mentalist using these four divisions might be more likely to have one of three 'companions.' Most common among the movers are animated objects, with weapons, shields and tools the most common choices. Most common among readers and flesh-shapers are animal companions using Familiar rules. Most common among seers (and mind-readers) are incorporeal presences that cannot affect the material world, but make excellent scouts and messengers. These would just be guidelines, however, and a flesh-shaper could make use of an animated healer's kit, and a seer could have a cat familiar.
I really really like this idea, and had a whole rant on why but my post got eaten.
Expect something from me in homebrew if nobody beats me to it.
|
I can not speak for Anderlorn, but I believe he wants a supernatural ability that is not magical. I am pretty sure he wants it to function unlike any magic as, you know, it is not magical. And this new supernatural ability's (which is not magical) shtick will be that it is mentally focused.
In that case, I want a sandwich. On this sandwich, I want cheese that is white, nutty, bittersweet and riddled with holes. It cannot be Swiss cheese, but it should taste, smell, look, and feel like it.
Do you get the metaphor? If it accomplishes similar results as magic, looks sounds and feels like magic, and in all respects is magic except that you call it psionics then what is preventing you from getting creative with magic?
If a normal townsfolk unfamiliar with the various schools of magic or psionics saw a psionic doing his thing, he'd probably think it was magic. Same for the superstitious tribesman out in the wild. Those same people would think that a pistol or laser pointer were magic, too.
I understand what you're trying to say, and I do think that Psionics are a worthy edition. I also think, though, that they should work within the same parameters as Arcane and Divine magic. Reflavored, of course, but it should not have an entire system just so psionic players feel that they are sufficiently disjointed from other "magic" users.
I have yet to see what is so wrong with the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionic? I have been DMing 3E with psionics for years and I have the full effect of:
1) It is different and feels different and is well-balanced with the magic system.
2) My players are happy (and actually feel like they are playing a psionicist and not being a wizard with enchantment spells and no somatics, verbal, or components...they can see through that crap easily) and all of them, at some point, has made a psionic character and it was never unbalanced in the slightest.
Can someone point out what is so wrong with 3.5e psionics? I've been using them since first published and I've never encountered any problems (well in 3.0, a few, but not 3.5 psionics).
just read this thread. what many find "wrong" with it is here. The biggest issue is as long as it is a sub system like it is now you will never see it used much, other then home games.
Psionics represent the idea that a "caster" has a certain amount of collective power.
Vanican caster represents that a caster can cast so many spells of this level and so many spells of that level.
I would not change psionics because they are still less troublesome than magic to deal with, and I dont want vanican psionics. I might as well use magic at that point. I wish the sorcerer worked on power points. It would make more sense than limiting it to X spells of a certain level per day.
PS: I also wish psionics used charisma since its something you are born with, and not something that is learned.
I disagree with cha as almost every time it's ever been used it is a learned skill.
Also psionics is power of the mind not collective power. Power points are not a must have or it's not psionics. Many many systems do phyic powers with out the points they are not must haves
Psioinic powers manifest at an early age, just like sorcerer powers do, and while other systems may work for psionics, Vanican is not one of them, at least not in D&D/Pathfinder anyway. It does not fit the sorcerer to well either, but it would require people to learn a new mechanic so it was thrown on as an easy fix.
To tell the truth, I am on who believes most of the feel comes from the imagination of the player. Case in point, I felt that the 3.5e Psion was a cross of the sorcerer & wizard. It felt like a wizard with a giant 'mood ring'. That said, don't tell me that Vancian can't capture the psionic 'feel'. It already has captured the feel, because, for all intents & purposes, the Power Point setup still boils down to a Vancian system. It creates a slightly more flexible sorcerer. I say sligtly, because all of the adding points to get the extras, and the metapsi feats, and power-ups was too confusing. The main reason I didn't include them in my Eberron campaign.
Now, that being said, I plan to handle magic using a variation of Legends of Sorcery. If I want psionics, I can just treat the powers as spells, and use the classes from one of the conversion guides for the XPH that were put up on the boards a few times. Everybody would then be using skill rolls for spells/powers.
Edit: Tallforadwarf put up one I find very good for using psionics in Pathfinder.
|
Personally I want the six differant base psions from the XPH. I can live with a vancian progrssion. I want 0-9 level powers with the psion getting the 0 level powers being spell like abilities.
What I would like changed. Less new age-y? (Not a word but...) If some of the stuff stayed I'd live, but I really don't want crystal pets. Talk about sticking out like a sore thumb.
I'd like the attack progression brought in line with the Bard. Many of the powers bring the psion into direct contact with the opposition, what is the point if you can manifest something, but can't do anything with it. It would take the Hit Die up to a d8 and I don't think it would really make the Psion stronger than the Wizard or the Sorcerer. If so, I think that you pair down some of the powers that they have that effect wide area effects or change up some of the psions so that some are on the weaker BAB (examples: the Seers, Shapers and Telepaths. Classes more likely to be backline combatants), and some on the higher BAB (examples: Kineticists, Egoists and Nomads. Classes that are more than likely midline/support combatants.) This is all very fexable however in my mind.
Jason hit the nail on the head with the powers that come like the Sorcerer or the Wizard. I want the six differant psion to really be differant from one another. Perhaps the Egotist has the ability to change their outward apperance (but not their gear) as a standard action at will.
I'd like some simple armor proficency given to the psion and simple weapons too.
And then lets clean up that spell, oops I mean powers list. I don't want to see "Psionic Fly", I just want to see "Fly". That's it, make it simple. Don't dress it up. Don't come up with some psionic way of renaming a spell, make them the same thing.
Some things should remain strictly in certain camps. Some spells should be strictly divine, some should be strictly arcane and some strictly psionic. but plenty should cross over. I'm my mind once a "spell caster" sees someone else do something that they can't do, many will try and replicate it. And that's why some powers overlap and some simply can't be done.
As far as the verbal, somatic, focus thing. I really don't know what to think. I'd like something simular to it, but differant. I like to think that a psion that is gagged and bound is just as bad off as any other spell caster bound and gagged.
Lot of good things
I am going to agree with alot of what you have said. I think we will see one class with "schools" or disciplines I had not thought going bard progression and limiting the powers to 5 levels but that is a good ideal, But what do you fill it out with? What other ability would it gain?
|
|
Lot of good thingsI am going to agree with alot of what you have said. I think we will see one class with "schools" or disciplines I had not thought going bard progression and limiting the powers to 5 levels but that is a good ideal, But what do you fill it out with? What other ability would it gain?
I'm not sure that you need to limit the levels in casting. I imagine the Psion to be something between the Cleric and Wizard/Sorcerer rather than something between the Wizard and the Sorcerer.
The way I envision a Psion is someone who is awakens with powers. The Sorcerer gets thier ability due to thier birthright as it were. Wizards get thier ability by talent and learning. Clerics get their power from faith or by being chosen.
I imagine psions getting powers either by havign the powers thrust upon them like experimentation by an Aboleth or by happenstance like a earthshattering event or even just sheer mystery. For whatever reason power just eminates from the Psion and they have to learn to control it rather than it control them.
The big differance between the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list and the Cleric Spell list is the Wizard/Sorcerer list is much more flexable. I propose that the Psion list be somewhat more restrictive like the clerics.
I think that someone else propsed something earlier that might be a bargin that we all might be able to live with.
Perhaps other than the Psionic Spells, Psions had a pool of points like the Monk and that is what powered discipline poweres?
Imagine a Psi Pool rather than a Ki pool. The number of points in a psion's psi pool is equal to 1/2 his Psion level + his Intellegence modifier. As long as the psion has points he can execute psionic disipline powers and certain psionic feats like deep strike.
So rather than lets say the ability to alter your appearance as a egotist as a at will power. Perhaps it is a 1 times per day power that can be reactivated by 1 point from your Psionic Pool? Activating the power could be a free action. So an Egotist could activate "Thicken Skin" as a free action as many times as he had points. Only one Discipline Power could be activated per round.
Optionally, if the player wanted he might use more than one point to buff up the power.
By giveing some freedom in one area, and restricting in others, we prevent the Psion from going nova.
Thoughts?
Maybe I'm being dense, but I can't see what the problem is with the present SRD Psionics.
Some people just don't like the (point-based) system. Other people don't like the fluff.