But not having the weaknesses of spellcasting comes at the price of having weaker powers that don't naturally scale with level. As has been pointed out before, where an Arcane caster might have 5 spells per day of his top three levels, if a psion were to try to use his top three level/equivalents 15 times he would be out of power points somewhere around 12 castings.
This isn't right really
A 20th level psion with int of 19 has 383 points9th level=17 points
8th level= 15 points
7th level=13 points
casting each 5 times each is 135 out of 383 points all with free still and silent spell
In fact ya can do 22 9th level powers all with free still and silent spell, no components no way to really stop it all on the fly
But not having the weaknesses of spellcasting comes at the price of having weaker powers that don't naturally scale with level. As has been pointed out before, where an Arcane caster might have 5 spells per day of his top three levels, if a psion were to try to use his top three level/equivalents 15 times he would be out of power points somewhere around 12 castings.
This isn't right really
A 20th level psion with int of 19 has 383 points
9th level=17 points
8th level= 15 points
7th level=13 pointscasting each 5 times each is 135 out of 383 points all with free still and silent spell
In fact ya can do 22 9th level powers all with free still and silent spell, no components no way to really stop it all on the fly
Spellcasters, even sorcerers can get new spells*. Once a psion chooses a power it is his to keep. You can always ready an action to hit them, and they still have to make concentration checks. If psions are to be held to the same standards as arcane casters they should be able to get rid of useless ones, and have the same amount of versatility. As it stand casters still own the game.
*by this I mean even the sorcerer can trade out useless spells for useful ones of the same level.
You can always ready an action to hit them, and they still have to make concentration checks.
The issue is your captured , tied up and gagged...how does that stop a psion? That is an issue alot of folks have. and at low end at lest they are very powerful. With int of 14 at level one I have 3 pp and 3 powers but if I wanted I could nova with a ray and do 3d6. Eh in 3.5 the wizard only got one 1st level spell but nothing at 3d6
All I am saying is there are real issues if used in a game with standard casters. I am alfor reworking into the standard format, you can still keep the schools and powers but have them more spell like. I also think the psion will need some 0th level like ability
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True, but James has repeatedly indicated in this thread that Paizo has no intention of ever putting point-based psionic characters in their adventures.
He's also said that they don't plan on putting Oracles, Summoners, Inquisitors, Witches, etc. into adventures very much, if at all, because it would take away from the wordcount for the adventure itself if they had to reprint the class abilities of those classes every time they used them (for people who didn't have the necessary books).
That doesn't mean that they aren't writing a book about Oracles, Summoners, etc. just that they aren't gonna force them on adventure purchasers. I suspect that psionics would be the same. They won't put them in adventures so as not to force people who don't own whatever product the psionic class(es) appeared in to go punt.
Ideally, they'll just stick to core classes in adventures, and mention in sidebars if a particular encounter would be a great place to use exotic class X. (See web enhancement for this BBEG as a Summoner or Mesmerist!)
casting each 5 times each is 135 out of 383 points all with free still and silent spell
True, but those spells have used up one third of his power points, without augmentation. Not only that, actually look at 9th level powers and compare them to 9th level spells, spells have more variety in their effects and in some cases just outright more powerful.
Not only that, if a psion wastes his power points blowing it all on 9th level powers, he's out of power points. A wizard, once out of 9th level spells, still have 8th level spells (which have a caster level equal to his level), then 76th and 6th etc. What's more, level for level, quite a few spells are stronger than powers. That's why psionic powers are built with a certain level of versitility, they need it just to match their counterparts.
In fact ya can do 22 9th level powers all with free still and silent spell, no components no way to really stop it all on the fly
Well..that assumes only 9th level powers with no augmentation, which on their own are actually pretty weak, especially when comapred to 9th level spells. What's more, they'll be out of power points.
A wizard will get 12-15 spells level 7-9, 15-18 if they specialise, which doesn't seem that far behind a psion considering that if they use up all of those, they still have 1st-6th level spells, which can still be increadibly powerful if used right (after all, Fly is only a 3rd level spell for wizards and can potentially make some enounters an absolute breeze(even though it's a 4th level Nomad only power for Psions)).
What's more, this is meant to be the arcane spellcaster that favours versitility over spells per day, not to mention that psions have a limtied number of powers whilst a wizard's list is infinate, and theres little to stop a wizard prepering spells for specific situations. Theres nothing to stop a wizard leaving a spell slot open in case they might need Knock or Levitate later.
Theres also metamagics. I love how people argue about Psions "going nova" when a wizard with quicken spell can do the same. Psions can only can the benifit of a single metapsionic feat at a time, and must expend their focus to do so, unlike other casters which can use their metamagic feats as they please.
And yes, they're silenced and still, but they also have afr more restrcitions. Effects like Capatsi and Psionic shackles can really hamper a psion, and theres no arcane or divine equivilent of either. They don't have an equivilent for metamgic wands. Not to mention that theres feats specifically designed for fighting psionics (such as hostile mind). Yes, they have still spell and silent spell, but they also take quite a hit for it. Unlike arcane and divine casters theres options for actually limiting and opposing psionic casters.
For all that it matters in Pathfinder you really have only one type of magic, Clerics and Druids call their uses for it divnine and Wizards and their ilk call it Arcane, but in effect it all follows the same rules. There is no reason I could not create a world of no gods but still have "Clerics" and call them White Mages, and use the existing cleric spell lists as their spell lists. Same magic, different use in that situation.
Actually there is. If theres no divine aspect about it, then theres no mechanical reason as to why "Good" clerics cannot cast evil spells. Not to mention that there is a difference between divine and arcane, in that theres no such thing as divine spell failure.
And if you really feel it's appropraite to just take existing classes and alter them slightly, then it quickly becomes a slippery slope. Remember that paladins and rangers were origonally fighter varients, ditto for the druid and cleric.
Sorcerers, monks and barbarians were also origonally splat-book classses. Really, if you put enough effort into them, you could easily replicate the entire core class system into only 3 or 4 classes if they have enough flexability, so if you really feel that way why aren't you playing a game like that? This is also why I had such a strong opinion behind the "make them core" idea, since I honestly feel alot less people would defend the sorcerer, monk, barbarian, druid etc if they weren't in the main rulebook.
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Unlike arcane and divine casters theres options for actually limiting and opposing psionic casters.
Well unless of course you count
Destroy/steal spellbook
Destroy/steal Arcanebond
Destroy/steal Holy symbol
Destroy/steal Spellcomponent pouch
Gag and bind the spellcaster
Cast silence on him
None of which unless I am mistaken work on a psionic (except for the occasional power that requires a focus)
Well unless of course you countDestroy/steal spellbook
Destroy/steal Arcanebond
Destroy/steal Holy symbol
Destroy/steal Spellcomponent pouch
None of which I've actually ever seen in a game (except for one or two, but then again the DM was intentionally trying to stick it to the spellcaster). That said, a DM taking the same approach could easily use Capatsi or Psionic Shackles as I said.
Gag and bind the spellcaster
Actually that would stop them if thye're blindfolded, since a fair portion of offenesive powers require sight to the target or some such. Being stuck in a cell with psionic powers isn't much good if you're limited to buffs.
The whole point of what Jason was saying is that they DON"T want to make it different. I can think of a few systems that have psoinics/mentalism in them & they use IDENTICAL mechanics for all magic styles....I assume by "Jason" you actually mean "James," yeah? Although I suspect Jason shares my ideas and believes on how to handle psionics if and when that day comes around.
But yeah... the idea of not rebuilding an entire new system for psionics and just using the sorcerer or bard as a model for how they use their magic is INCREDIBLY appealing to me. And I fully realize that that opinion might not be popular with current psionics fans, which makes me not that eager to get started on Pathfinder Psionics to be honest.
Yeah, sorry about that. Anyway, I find the Psychic Bloodline works for what I want to do with psionics.
The problem with the whole ¨you can´t stop me from casting¨ is about having to beat the freaking psion to the ground in order to stop him. No amoun of grappling or silence zones wl stop him, it makes for very volatile situations on PvP and PvNPC.
But the same can be said about other classes anyway. Theres little point in throwing a high level monk behind bars, because even if bound and gagged, he can still headbutt the bars and overcome hardness due his unarmed strikes counting as adamantine. A wizard without a spellbook still has feats like Spell Mastery (which he can even gain as a bonus feat).
And again, any existing spellcasters with silent/still/quickened spells preprered offers the same problems. A grappled druid can still wildshape, a silenced barbarian can still rage, so why do these disadvantages have to be forced on certain classes?
It might be hard to stop a Psion, but it's not impossible. And well...at the end of the day, you're asking for ways to completely negate the class features of 3 classes, it should be hard.
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I´m comparing the psion in this case to full casters, in which case all of them are much easily calcelled than the psion without actually beating on it. And while they can still do things to avoid being stopped, it still requires them to invest on feats and others.
Again I like the psionic system but it needs to be more on pair, give it´s manifesting some restrictions to bring it on par with wizards oon that specific area.
And just wanna point out that all this comes from personal experience, where players had to literally beat any given psion into the negatives in order to intrrogate or somehow neutralize him. That just makes for poor character dynamics.
I´m comparing the psion in this case to full casters, in which case all of them are much easily calcelled than the psion without actually beating on it. And while they can still do things to avoid being stopped, it still requires them to invest on feats and others.
Again I like the psionic system but it needs to be more on pair, give it´s manifesting some restrictions to bring it on par with wizards oon that specific area.And just wanna point out that all this comes from personal experience, where players had to literally beat any given psion into the negatives in order to intrrogate or somehow neutralize him. That just makes for poor character dynamics.
Your lucky my game the players just killed them all. Every one, "Can't hold em alive" and all that. I think something needs done. every single power should not gain free still and silent spell.
Lets take the first level power mindthrust, it can be used while blindfolded, hands tied behind ones back . at level one if your using all your power points that 4d10 damage at level 1 with an Int of 14. All you need is a target, someone touch you, hear a voice anything you do not need to see them
Creative Director
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He's also said that they don't plan on putting Oracles, Summoners, Inquisitors, Witches, etc. into adventures very much, if at all, because it would take away from the wordcount for the adventure itself if they had to reprint the class abilities of those classes every time they used them (for people who didn't have the necessary books).
The difference is, of course, that the oracle and summoner and all the new classes who cast spells CAST SPELLS. The spells they cast are mostly in the core game. We can easily print an oracle character, reprint her special abilities, and give her a full selection of spells that we don't have to reprint; the end result would be a stat block no larger than, say, a stat block for any relatively complex monster from a 3rd party source.
We can't do this right now for psionic characters as they exist in 3.5, because the powers they use are NOT the same. There's a lot that are completely different, but even the ones with the same names as spells don't work the same as spells. This is a great reason why I want to rebuild psionic characters so that they work like sorcerers; if, say, 50% or even 75% of their psionic spells are identical to the divine/arcane spells in the core book, we COULD print a psionic NPC stat block in an Adventure Path. But as long as their powers work so fundamentally differently, we'd have to reprint ALL of the powers they know and that's a sure-fire way to not get into an AP.
James,
If you do find a way to created a psion and psychic warrior using a sorcerer and bard as starting points the DMs I play with would be more likely to allow them into the game. So please go forward with a Pathfinder Psionics.
Doug
To be fair Seeker, even thou we are in agreement, a first level psion would not be able to use all 4 of his pp on a single power at once (thou it is still silent and still hehe).
You are correct . there are a few feats if I recall that fix that issues(brake really) But still ya can do 1d10 to every one that touches you or talks to you Bound, blindfolded and gagged. So yeah we agree
Of course, to inflict that 4d10 they have to be spent over the course of 4 turns (2 turns if your a wilder, but that feedback would HURTTT), and, unlike burning hands, there's no half damage on a save.
Remember, you can generally only spend your manifester level in a given casting.
You are correct, but as I said before you can still do 1d10 to anyone talking or touching you , or you can guess where they are while blindfolded, gagged and bound.
And sure no damage if they save but Gagged, blindfolded and bound!
Minor hijack, but if there's an appropriate thread this is it... I've been working on a rather different point-based system for a little while now (actually using the PF monk's ki pool as a starting point), and have reached a point where I'd love some review, feedback, and contribution if anyone is willing. Details here.
And on a decidedly related note: I really like the idea of Paizo not presenting their own point-based system. As has been brought up on a couple of occasions, Dreamscarred Press is already working on a proper conversion of OGL/XPH psionics, and the "mysticism" I've been toiling over is another take (closer to the incarnum niche, but with strong influence from psionics). The less expansion Paizo does into alternate-mechanics territory, the more room there is for third parties. Furthermore, on top of the reprint-for-module issue, I would much rather see the space in future hardbound PFRPG books dedicated to fully exploring the options and potential of the existing mechanics, and classes which use them. I would have much rather seen the gratuitous new psionic powers in several WotC splatbooks replaced with lists giving some of the new spells in those books to hexblades, shugenja and wu-jen. Depth over breadth from the primary source... breadth will arise on its own!
And heck, anything with the PF compatibility logo is OGL by mandate. If pagecount permits, any of it can go into modules (Paizo's or otherwise).
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Creative Director
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This is a great reason why I want to rebuild psionic characters so that they work like sorcerers; if, say, 50% or even 75% of their psionic spells are identical to the divine/arcane spells in the core book, we COULD print a psionic NPC stat block in an Adventure Path. But as long as their powers work so fundamentally differently, we'd have to reprint ALL of the powers they know and that's a sure-fire way to not get into an AP.Well, I certainly agree with the logic behind rewriting powers. If a power is almost the same as a spell, it would be easier to just make it exactly the same as the spell.
However, since you wouldn't need to hard-wire a point cost into the description of any non-augmentable power/spell, I'm still not sure how this warrants Vancian psionics.
Consider that the following...
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6th)
3rd (4/day) - suggestion
2nd (6/day) - detect thoughts, touch of idiocy
1st (7/day) - charm person, daze monster, hypnotism, magic missile
0 (at will) - daze, detect magic, flare, mage hand, message, open/close, touch of fatigue...is no less complicated than...
Psionic Spells Known (CL 6th, 45 power points)
3rd (power point cost: 5/casting) - suggestion
2nd (power point cost: 3/casting) - detect thoughts, touch of idiocy
1st (power point cost: 1/casting) - charm person, daze monster, hypnotism, magic missile
0 (at will, power point cost: none) - daze, detect magic, flare, mage hand, message, open/close, touch of fatigue
And if it's no less complicated... why bother changing it to a point based system in the first place? That's my point.
And if it's no less complicated... why bother changing it to a point based system in the first place? That's my point.
So you'll only consider a complicated point-based system, not a simple point-based system? That's....strange.
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The fact that they are different should not be changed completly. They could in theory follow a vancian system based on thei´r own list of powers. And as they go up in level gain the ability to augment their powers with an specific pool of aailable points (keeping their flavor without completly being alien). Also a class ability to play arund with spell slots shouldn´t be hard to justify. In the end it should end up having all the versatility and feel of a 3.5 psion without being completly anathema to the rest of the world.
That´s just my opinion. And on that note I´m gonna start working on a psion class that embodies everything that I just said.
Psionics have been as long as I have been playing odd and in most cases vastly overpowered. A good deal of the reason they have been overpowered is because they are vastly different from the other magic in the game and thus few is anyone outside of those with Psionic powers have any defense against it.
While that was certainly true in 2nd edition, 3.0 gave equivalent defenses to monsters (anything with SR had equal PR) and 3.5 made transparency standard.
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And if it's no less complicated... why bother changing it to a point based system in the first place? That's my point.So you'll only consider a complicated point-based system, not a simple point-based system? That's....strange.
My interpretation is that he isn't interested in doing psionics wrong with a quick fix (which, IMO, would probably piss a bunch of people off anyway). If it's going to be converted, it should be done right, which is going to take an actual class write-up and rules relevant to the class, not just 'Sorcerer using spell points.'
Either the Psion(ic/icist/whatever) is going to be it's own class, with it's own rules, or you can 'fake it' with a Sorcerer with the appropriate selection of charms, detect thoughts, scrying and telekinesis.
I mean, seriously, is James really being criticized for not wanting to rush out a crappy sorcerer-with-spell-points and calling it a 'Psion?' I'm not the biggest fan of psionics in the world, but I think that would be pretty darn underwhelming, just like being told that if I want to play a Monk, I should just play a Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike...
My interpretation is that he isn't interested in doing psionics wrong with a quick fix (which, IMO, would probably piss a bunch of people off anyway). If it's going to be converted, it should be done right, which is going to take an actual class write-up and rules relevant to the class, not just 'Sorcerer using spell points.'And if it's no less complicated... why bother changing it to a point based system in the first place? That's my point.So you'll only consider a complicated point-based system, not a simple point-based system? That's....strange.
That makes more sense. The idea that a system isn't worth doing unless it's more complicated than what already exists didn't make any sense to me!
Lets take the first level power mindthrust, it can be used while blindfolded, hands tied behind ones back . at level one if your using all your power points that 4d10 damage at level 1 with an Int of 14. All you need is a target, someone touch you, hear a voice anything you do not need to see them
Well...theres quite alot wrong with this. Firstly, a psionic character cannot spend more than his/her manifester level on a single power. That includes things like metapsionic feats as well. It's players not understanding things like this that give 3.5 psionics such an undserved reputation.
Seconedly, unless stated in the power entry, powers with a "Target" section require line of sight or touch. To quote the SRD
Target or Targets
Some powers have a target or targets. You manifest these powers on creatures or objects, as defined by the power itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. However, you do not have to select your target until you finish manifesting the power.
So mind thrust cannot do that. I learned that the hard way. Truthfully, partly the reason why I defend psionics so much is because alot of people quite readily say things like "They're unbalanced" without really looking at them.
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Lvl one wizard gagged and in cuffs - 0
Lvl one psion gagged and cuffed - 4
That´s how many powers&spells they can use in that situation both Int base clases.
Does that make the psion broken or unbalanced? No. But beyong mechanics it does make it disruptive in game. To the point that you CANNOT STOP A PSION FROM MANIFESTING NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO unless you beat it to the ground.
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I'm not seeing the issue re: changing psionics into a vancian system.
In the game if a person uses Suggestion or Psionic Suggestion either way you're hypnotising an individual.
In game nobody knows who is spending points or spell-slots, all they know is that some supernatural effect occurred due to the oddly dressed individual with the gnarly staff. (Whether a cleric, wizard, psion, houngan or yogi).
The points, the slots, those are all metagame definitions that exist outside the world. Power Points don't equal psionic flavour, any more than spell points (from unearthed arcana) change the flavour of magic.
If conversion to a vancian system makes it so psionics can be better integrated into the setting, then they should go for it. Because at the moment if someone asks me to play psion, I have A LOT of work to do to integrate them into the setting. I've got to create organisations whole cloth, I've got to change treasure tables to include psionic items alongside magic items.
So if it comes to a choice between tradition and integration of psionic flavour, I'd rather have integration please. Power points don't mean all that much to me, but incorporation of psionics into the campaign setting (and adventure paths) means a lot.
So mind thrust cannot do that. I learned that the hard way. Truthfully, partly the reason why I defend psionics so much is because alot of people quite readily say things like "They're unbalanced" without really looking at them.
I said touch a few times.A psion can still 'cast" blindfolded, gagged and bound. I picked mind thurst at random. But I have used the rules more then once but it has been 8 months since I have used or read the rules and I can't keep rules in my head I do not use all the time, so I need to reread rules that have not been used in such a long time and sometimes leave small things out.
There were issues in the games I ran, the party tended to just kill every psion. Easier that way
Epic Meepo what he means is ya capture them , bound and gag em..they can still cast unless ya beat them into sleepy land
True, but James has repeatedly indicated in this thread that Paizo has no intention of ever putting point-based psionic characters in their adventures.
With that best-case option off the table, which of the two remaining options is better for point-based psionics fans:
1) Paizo never creates official versions of SRD psionic base classes, instead creating a new Vancian base class, or
2) Paizo recreates all psionic classes from the SRD as Vancian casters, thereby declaring the point-based psionics from the SRD incompatible with PRPG.Of those two remaining options, I would prefer the one that doesn't involve Paizo officially declaring my preferred version of psionics incompatible with PRPG. Hence my suggestion that Paizo support its system of Vancian mind magic by creating a new base class, not by co-opting the names of existing psionic base classes.
Essentially, I'm saying I would find it much easier to accept a Vancian system called "cerebromancy" that is used by "cerebromancers" than a Vancian system called "psionics" that is used by "psions."
I wouldn't say that point-based psionic characters in adventures would qualify as a best case scenario for the reasons James describes above. Even though I have no real dislike for the point-based system, the issue of needing to reprint rules is a very significant cost that would greatly impact any Paizo adventure that uses it.
I vehemently opposed the declaration that Paizo creating classes with the same names would mean that they are incompatible with PRPG. Having the same name as another class/monster/feat/etc. in any 3rd party book doesn't render it anymore incompatible if Paizo makes an item with the same name. I believe it just offers a choice rather than overriding the other option. It isn't something that people are forced to use or even consider if they don't want to.
All I want is continued psionic support in Golarion, rather than cerebromancy and declaring that the word "psion" is off-limits is a large problem for me.
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DC whatever is still better than unable to cast (as mages when it concerns powers with somatic components). Also how would a person without psycraft know when someone is ¨concentrating to manifest¨?
Again, I´m not against psionics remaining they´re own system and be different. But it only hurts the cause to be stubborn about the psion having A LOT of advantajes over vancian casters.
I have to agree with blazej here, reusing the names is not an issue. You always...ALWAYS have the option to use a 3pp rule set. Always
And if it's no less complicated... why bother changing it to a point based system in the first place? That's my point.Change psionics to a point-based system? It's already a point-based sytem. You make it sound as though I'm the one advocating a major overhaul of OGL psionics. I'm advocating that it be left as close to its existing form as possible.
From what I saw you were also advocating a major overhaul of OGL psionics in your own previous post as the alternative. Changing the entire power list to a spell list, causing rules for meta-psionics to change and augmenting to disappear, and such. I would suggest that your own suggestion is not vastly different from what James is suggesting and that the changing the system away from points is not the major change.
In addition, I think it is fair to note that even the Expanded Psionics Handbook didn't use the point-based system for pratically all of the monsters. That they do use safely use a system more similar to Vancian without any issue.
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My problem with psionics as they are is mainly from a DM perspective. It is much harder as a DM to keep track of pp than spell slots. It is much harder to challenge parties with psions on them with challenges that do not include straight up combat as all their powers are available at whatever time needed. It is harder to neutralize said character without having to kill it.
Alltogether they´re harder to control than everyone else in the damn party, which for players is great but for Dm is a pai in the butt.
Again, I do not think psionics are broken or more powerfull than other classes. They are just disruptive to the game dynamics.
There were issues in the games I ran, the party tended to just kill every psion. Easier that way
In all honesty, that might just be a group thing. If I throw a Psion at the party and they beat him to a pulp and try to capture him, he's going to be smart enough to realise "You know, I could still use my powers, but then again if I went at them full-force and they still beat me down then theres no chance for me to escape anyway".
Also, a party member only needs to wake the psion every few hours to stop them regaining power points, so when capture the situation can become extremly dangerous for a Psion. Unlike a wizard, psions must have 8 hours of quiet and peaceful rest. A wizard could have a rought night, but by RAW they can still prepere spells the next day. A psion that has a rough night does not regain power points
Peaceful Environment
To regain power points, a psionic character must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The psionic character’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions, such as combat raging nearby or other loud noises. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might incur while concentrating on regaining power points.
If your Psion prisoner is giving you greif, make him sleep, bound and gagged, outside, then he'll be no threat at all. Even bound and gagged spellcasters can be a nuisence once they gain some rest.
Also, again, to quote the SRD
Entangled
If you want to manifest a power while entangled in a net or while affected by a power with similar effects you must make a DC 15 Concentration check to manifest the power. You lose the power if you fail.
By RAW, a Psion with limited movement is already making checks to avoid lossing their powers. This, to me, surgests that RAI, a completely bound and gagged Psion still cannot use powers anyway.
Even if your DM rules they can, they'll still be stuck, at the bare minimum, with the check above (which would need to be updated to PF anyway. Given what the standard DC for concentration in PF is now, Psions should stand a 50% chance of failure on average when casting powers with power points equal to their manifester level).
And, as said before, capturing PC's with classes of any sorts can be a problem. Suddenly rope isn't an issue for barbarians who can rage for a single round and add their level to the check to escape, or a cleric with the travel domain who can just teleport a short distance. When you really look at it, Psions aren't particularly hard to subdue, they're just harder compared to certain classes (like the wizard). Compared to other classes they seem pretty easy actually.
Thank you for pointing out that they are harder to contain then any other full caster class. Which was the whole point
Thank you for pointing out that they are harder to contain then any other full caster class.
He didn't. He only pointed it out with regards to an other full caster class. Unless the wizard has a contingency or a prepared still silent spell, he's screwed (unless he's a conjurer, in which case he just dribbles acid on the rope)... but that's a wizard thing.
Try restraining a sorcerer who has both of the above metamagic feats, or one of several bloodlines. Try getting to step one of binding and gagging a druid (by which I mean, a snake). How about a cleric with any of the Elemental domains, Liberation, Strength or Travel. Psions aren't inherently more slippery than every other full caster, even considering only core.