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I was chatting with a player of mine the other night about the lack of rules in dealing with the costs of maintaining armor and weapons compared to the inflated costs of a wizards spellbook.
For along time now we have always felt that the costs imposed on a wizard to maintain his spellbook has always been unfair compared to most classes who can use the same 2gp dagger from 1st level right up to 20th level with no loss in power or upkeep. Yes I know wizards get 2 free spells per level but that isnt often enough to please the appetites of most wizards planning on a life of adventure.
Anyway, going over the pathfinder rules it dawned on me that the new broken condition might provide a nice side-effect to add an upkeep cost to armor and weapons so I quickly threw these house rules together...
Critical Fumbles with Weapons
On any attack roll that the dice lands on a natural 1 (automatic miss) the player must make a second attack roll with that weapon against his target if the attack roll misses he has scored a critical fumble smashing his weapon into a solid object and giving it the broken condition; the weapons hit points are halved. Further fumbles with the weapon do not destroy the weapon completely and do not reduce the weapons hit points but may still be destroyed by a sunder.
Damaging armor with critical hits
A successful critical hit against you deals 1 point of damage for light weapons, 2 points of damage for one handed weapons and 4 points of damage for a two handed weapon to your armor plus the creatures size modifier x the weapons critical modifier. Hardness applies as normal to this damage.
The size modifiers are Fine -8, diminuative -4, tiny -2, small -1, medium +0, large +1, huge +2, gargantuan +4, colossal +8.
For example and ogre scores a critical hit on a paladin in fullplate armor with a greataxe. The armor suffers 4 + 1 x 3 for a total of 15 points of damage, minus the armors 10 hardness means the armor uffers 5 hit points of damage from the blow.
Thoughts comments and suggestions welcome.
I think this is already balanced out by the fact that a Wizard never 'needs' to buy enchanted weapon or armor. In fact a 20th level Wizard could almost function with his spellbook alone. Melee characters constantly have to sink cash into upgrading their weapons and armor. Adding in regularly occurring repair costs is a bit much, IMO.
The reason I don't like critical fumbles or extreme critical hits (critical hit decks, critical hit charts, etc) is that they affect the players much, much more strongly than they affect their foes.
For example, using the old 20-20-20 instant kill rule dramatically increases the chances of a player character dieing in a campaign while not really making the campaign any easier on the players. The reasoning behind this is that any given PC will, on average, be attacked thousands of times over the course of a campaign, while any given NPC will be attacked a few dozen times at most. Furthermore, the NPCs are supposed to die, ultimately, while killing off PCs at the whims of the dice gods is really pretty lame.
Now, obviously, your proposal here isn't nearly as extreme as the 20-20-20 rule, but it still has the same inherent mathematical problem. Namely, that the PCs will make thousands of attack rolls (and be attacked thousands of times) over the course of the campaign, while their opponents won't.
Another reason I dislike it is that characters with full BAB are more likely to break a weapon than characters with medium or low BAB, because they get effective attacks more often. That punishes the full-BAB characters, who are already the ones lowest on the power totem pole.
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I was chatting with a player of mine the other night about the lack of rules in dealing with the costs of maintaining armor and weapons compared to the inflated costs of a wizards spellbook.
For along time now we have always felt that the costs imposed on a wizard to maintain his spellbook has always been unfair compared to most classes who can use the same 2gp dagger from 1st level right up to 20th level with no loss in power or upkeep. Yes I know wizards get 2 free spells per level but that isnt often enough to please the appetites of most wizards planning on a life of adventure.
Anyway, going over the pathfinder rules it dawned on me that the new broken condition might provide a nice side-effect to add an upkeep cost to armor and weapons so I quickly threw these house rules together...
Critical Fumbles with Weapons
On any attack roll that the dice lands on a natural 1 (automatic miss) the player must make a second attack roll with that weapon against his target if the attack roll misses he has scored a critical fumble smashing his weapon into a solid object and giving it the broken condition; the weapons hit points are halved. Further fumbles with the weapon do not destroy the weapon completely and do not reduce the weapons hit points but may still be destroyed by a sunder.Damaging armor with critical hits
A successful critical hit against you deals 1 point of damage for light weapons, 2 points of damage for one handed weapons and 4 points of damage for a two handed weapon to your armor plus the creatures size modifier x the weapons critical modifier. Hardness applies as normal to this damage.The size modifiers are Fine -8, diminuative -4, tiny -2, small -1, medium +0, large +1, huge +2, gargantuan +4, colossal +8.
For example and ogre scores a critical hit on a paladin in fullplate armor with a greataxe. The armor suffers 4 + 1 x 3 for a total of 15 points of damage, minus the armors 10 hardness means the armor uffers 5 hit points of damage from the blow.
Thoughts...
Just making sure, but do you know the costs changed in Pathfinder?
In 3.5 it cost 100 GP per level of spell.
In PRPG it costs 10 GP x the level of the spell squared.
So...3.5/PRPG
1st - 100 / 10
2nd - 200 / 40
3rd - 300 / 90
4th - 400 / 160
5th - 500 / 250
6th - 600 / 360
7th - 700 / 490
8th - 800 / 640
9th - 900 / 810
That may make a difference if you were unaware.
I'm not going to try to do this math, but off the top of my head, it sounds like one "broken" condition on a +5 sword would cost more to fix than a dozen 9th level spells cost to inscribe.
And my bet is that, given the swordsman likely has multiple iterative attacks, maybe haste, maybe two weapons (both +5 - I'm thinking near-epic levels here), he could be swinging his sword 5 or 6 times a round. That's at least one natural-1 every 4 rounds of combat (or just about one/encounter). Some of those, especially at the tail end of his iterative attacks, are likely to miss. He could end up repairing his sword once every few combats, statistically.
Let's call it once per adventuring day, more or less.
That's a lot of repair bills.
Are we sure that's adequate compensation for the wizard's spellbook costs? Is the wizard scribing a dozen 9th level spells every adventuring day?
Even if he is, the wizard ostensibly gains power by scribing spells, while your poor fighters are losing power while their equipment is broken and then spending good gold to return to their previous power - no gains at all.
Again, that's a math-free analysis off of the top of my head, but it seems to me, this might be a bit overmuch.
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The only other problem I see with this is that almost any party can fix most weapons and armor as long as they are not actually fully broken. At the end of the day you just have the cleric cast mending on the sword, or maybe make whole if its really bad, and it never breaks. It will be damaged sometimes, but actually letting a weapon be broken or destroyed is nearly impossible, unless you focus on breaking the weapon. And the only rule I have for that is what the rogue yelled at the fighter last time he went sunder happy, "Stop destroying the loot!"
Critical Fumbles with Weapons
On any attack roll that the dice lands on a natural 1 (automatic miss) the player must make a second attack roll with that weapon against his target if the attack roll misses he has scored a critical fumble smashing his weapon into a solid object and giving it the broken condition; the weapons hit points are halved. Further fumbles with the weapon do not destroy the weapon completely and do not reduce the weapons hit points but may still be destroyed by a sunder.
Interestingly enough, I begin to wonder who's Scrying on my gaming. I literally JUST implemented this when running Bastards of Erebus.
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@ Wolf - I see where your coming from with this but the cost of repairing items does become mitigated with certain spells, not to mention that many spellcasters will make and use charged items like wands and staffs to increase their arsenal much the same way melees use weapons of different types and materials.
@ Zurai - I agree with you 100% on this and I didn't think about the problem with multiple attacks from full attacks. I'd be inclinded to rule that the confirm fumble roll be made with the characters full BAB regardless of the base modifier for the fumbling attack. I personally never allow critical hits against the PCs in my games and I'm inclined to rule that natural 1s from opponents are always fumbles.
@ Karui Kage - Aye I was aware of the changes in spell costs and I love it! but I would still like to see wear and tear on standard equipment even if just for realism more than a balancing issue.
@ DM-Blake - Good analysis there on the cost spread on the average group makeup but theres something I've seen more since running pathfinder that wasn't so common in 3.5 (mainly due to the removal of the XP cost) and thats wizards increasing their firepower per day with the application of scrolls. That cost alone matches the repair costs of a weapon or the replacement of spent ammunition (barely).
@ Chris Van Horn - Having a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, or bard present with mending spell (0-level) can remove the broken condition with a single cast unlimited times per day... hmmm considering this I might have to adjust the rule since this rather trivialises the whole broken condition somewhat. well spotted, the threat is still present in a combat though, breaking your sword does make you the likely target for a sunder unless your willing to step out of the combat to have the caster repair it for you.
@ Gorbacz - While I like the products paizo produce critial decks have never been openly embraced by the groups I have played in but its certainly a viable alternative.
@ Mikhailia B 313 - Crystal Balls are wonderful things as long as you dont break them :)...
I do critical hits/critical fumbles in my game, but they aren't quite what they were in 3.5.
Obviously, criticals have their own function (x2 or x3 or x4 etc) on the damage.
Critical fumbles usually result in someone being either weaponless or flat-footed. For example :
Critical Failure (confirm with full BAB) while attacking with a ranged or melee weapon : Either weapon damaged (string broke, trigger jammed), or weapon lost (dropped), or hit an ally (if possible and you missed your confirmation big time, like needing a 25 to avoid a miss and rolling a 10 to confirm).
Critical Failure (confirm with full BAB) while attacking with a spell or special ability : Loss of spell (obviously) plus magical backfire (bad magical effect to caster, based on spell, like being hit with your own spell) or hit an ally (same as above) or lose access to the power/spell level for remainder of fight.
Critical Failure (confirm with second test) while using a skill : Flat-footed (in combat, like critically failing an Acrobatics check and landing on your back) or distracted (again, in combat, -4 AC) or you broke something (repair) or set off a trap (disable device) or lost all your goldpieces (crafting, alchemy).
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The way we handle Natural 1's in my campaign is to simply allow an attack of opportunity against that character/monster. Of course if there is nobody threatening that square, ie Missile weapon, it is just a clean miss.
We have been doing this since 3.0 came along and it works well for us. Assume the weapon slipped in your hand or something like that.
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Just looked over the Mending dilemma and it isn't as all encompassing as it first appeared.
Firstly it has a limit of items weighing 1 lb per caster level meaning you would need a 12th level spellcaster to fix a greataxe and you cant repair any armor heavier than studded leather!
This eliminates mending from most weapons but thankfully there is Make Whole (Cleric 2, Sor/Wiz 2) that not only repairs 10 cubic ft of objects per level but also restores the magical properties of destroyed weapons. I think this would come with a suitable price tag from a hired spellcaster to warrant the reduction in the replacement of a magic item, and would go some way to paying for the wizards increased spell arsenal :)
The way we handle Natural 1's in my campaign is to simply allow an attack of opportunity against that character/monster. Of course if there is nobody threatening that square, ie Missile weapon, it is just a clean miss.
We have been doing this since 3.0 came along and it works well for us. Assume the weapon slipped in your hand or something like that.
We've always had Critical Fumbles in our games. Rolling a 1 always negates your next attack (You thud your weapon into that tree stump and get it lodged, etc). At low levels this can be really painful as the attacker loses a round freeing their weapon, at higher levels it loses some significance but its always painful when a 1 (on the higher iterative attack dice) shows up next to a crit.
I also have the Critical Hits Deck that I allow players to choose, NPC's that use the deck have to take a feat for access to it (Powerful Criticals). Natural 20's by melee weapons not only crit, but allow for an extra attack at the same bonus.