Greater Protection from Arrows ???

[Rezdave]

From Where is the Natural 1 ...

Abraham spalding wrote:

Threadjack:

Protection From Arrows bugs me. Protection from non magical projectiles is more like it. Honestly if Resist Energy can scale I don't understand why Protection From Arrows doesn't. Simply adding that the DR scales to +1 at 5th level, +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and +4 at 20th level would do lots to improve the spell. It's still low enough that like caliber foes will peg you through it, but low enough that the minions/mooks/etc won't get throw it with a simple first level spell (magic weapon)!

There's nothing that says you can't develop a 4th level Greater Protection from Arrows spell, a 6th level Superior Protection from Arrows and so forth.

The +x scale is so 3.0 and not really 3.5 DR standard, much less PF, so I wouldn't go that route.

GPfA = Ignore the nonmagical portion of damage from any projectile and only the magical portion counts.

SPfA = Ignore nonmagical and enhancement damage from arrows, but not energy or other effects (resist energy and other protections still apply).

That's the 3.5 / PF way to solve that problem, IMO.

FWIW,

Rez

[Abraham spalding]

Actually I would probably end up with the following:

First gotten: DR/magic
Level 7: DR/Adamantine and magic
Level 13: DR/--

And I would leave it as a 2nd level spell without any need for higher level ones. It is a very specific spell that only protects you from mundane ranged attacks, which do happen but not as often as all that. DR/magic is pitiful past level 5, and with this scaling it would stay 'even' with what Resist Energy does, however it still has a maximum damage absorbed which give it yet another limit that Resist Energy does not have. Mirror Image would still be a better general spell however this would actually give a reason to use protection from arrows instead of before mentioned Mirror Image or simply Wind Wall (granted of different level).

[Rezdave]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Actually I would probably end up with the following:

Generally, 3.x spells only scale quantity, not quality. To change qualities you need to upgrade the version of the spell.

That was my main point, trying to remain consistent with existing rules, spells, patterns, protocols and such.

R.

[Abraham spalding]

In many cases Quantity is Quality for these spells.

You would have a very hard time convincing me that more energy resistance is not better energy resistance. Same with Greater Magic Weapon... more bonus is a better bonus. More is better for all of these spells. However this isn't the case with Protection from Arrows. More DR will not fix the fundamental problem of the spell being too easy to bypass. Invisibility is of more use, as is mirror image, or blur. Heck Mage Armor is a better spell since it actually affects the likelihood of getting damage.

Basically I'm saying the spell Protection from Arrows is flawed in its approach to the problem from the word "go". That there doesn't need to be more spells, that this one simply needs to be fixed. While I agree that usually simply giving "more" will fix the problem that really isn't the case with this spell, and while the usual solution does not preclude a solution that works in a different fashion. In fact I would argue that several spells actually do work in the fashion I'm describing just not at first glance. Consider Magic Circle of Protection -- It has a feature that isn't really accessible until you are of higher level (high enough to cast lesser planar binding). It doesn't directly tie it to your caster level, but until you are actually able to cast that higher level spell you really can't use that function. Banishment offers something similar in that you can get others to cast spells to increase your DC.

In this case increasing the amount of DR won't really fix the problem or indeed even come close to addressing it since any magical arrow automatically bypasses the spell. Considering the ease with which one can get that magical shot off to begin with it's a waste of the slot.

Indeed considering that Stoneskin is a fourth level spell it makes no sense to actually come up with more spells of the same or higher level that are actually weaker than that spell.

[Rezdave]

Abraham spalding wrote:

In many cases Quantity is Quality for these spells.

You would have a very hard time convincing me that more energy resistance is not better energy resistance.

You're confusing the very specific denotation of the terms "quantity" and "quality" in regards to D&D. "Quality" does not mean good or bad, but rather "attribute", such as "magical melee weapon qualities vs. ranged weapon qualities vs. armor and shield qualities".

Certainly higher CL and thus more points of resist energy gives you more quantity and thus more "quality" in the "good" sense, but as you increase in level you don't start resisting a second then a third then a fourth type of energy on a single casting. You simply resist a greater quantity of a single quality.

That's generally the way of D&D spells, that as level increases you gain benefits of quantity, but not quality. To gain benefits of quality, you need higher level spells, often in the form of greater versions of the base spell.

Write it up however you like and think is beneficial and balanced, I really don't care. My point is that PfA itself doesn't need to scale in qualities but just do what it does in quantity. Higher level spells can give you other types of DR, and even if your bow-wielding opponents now all have magic arrows that bypass it that wonderful 2nd level PfA when you're higher level helps keep giant-thrown boulders from being such a problem.

FWIW,

Rez

[selios]

I think that divine favor scales in "quality", or greater magic weapon, or other spells.
Protection from arrows as it, is useless past level 5. I'm for a revision of this spell to make it useful at higher levels.

[Rezdave]

selios wrote:

I think that divine favor scales in "quality", or greater magic weapon, or other spells.

Perhaps you need to re-read the post immediately above yours, or re-read the spell descriptions.

All these spells scale in "quantity" but not "quality". They simply do "more of the same" rather than "something new". For example, divine favor does not begin to affect spell damage when you become more powerful, and greater magic weapon simply keeps increasing your bonus but doesn't add flaming or keen or vorpal or other quality as it increases in level.

Simply put, other spells to that. Hence my whole point in this thread.

R.

[Kirth Gersen]

The thing is, a higher-level version would still be fairly useless, because at those levels you have a lot more to worry about than someone targeting one person with a bow. So anything that fills the "PfA" niche HAS to be a low-level spell.

To keep it slightly relevant, and to fulfill Rezdave's (correct) comments regarding changes in qualities, a "protection from arrows, version b" spell could maybe provide DR 1/- vs. missiles, increasing with level (DR 2/- at CL 2nd, up to DR 20/- at CL 20th).

[tejón]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Greater Protection from Arrows.

[Abraham spalding]

tejón wrote:

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Greater Protection from Arrows.

Which is exactly the problem with simply creating a higher level spell.

Kirth's solution would work for me though.