The Multiple Spell Potion Idea, Already Done? Broken?

[pres man]

So I've had this thought of allow multiple spell potions to be created, this would cut down on the number of rounds people have to spend buffing up (perhaps making the BBEG's pre-buffs a bit more believable). Now there is already a precedent for having more than one type of effect on a magic item, the second one costs 50% more. So my idea is to allow a potion to have multiple spells built into it with the cost increasing for each additional spell.

Now I can already see some problems with this. One that jumps out, what if you allow the same spell twice? Say a potion of cure light wounds(x2)? 2d8+2 healing is pretty much the same as a cure moderate wounds which costs 300 gp. Should a potion of cure light wounds(x2) cost the same as a potion of cure moderate? No, it should be slightly cheaper (does 2d8+2 vs. 2d8+3), but how much cheaper? 250 gps? I think pricing is going to be the biggest issue.

Maybe something like:
1st spell (always the lowest level): normal price
2nd spell (always the 2nd lowest): 4 x normal price
3rd spell (always the 3rd lowest): 8 x normal price
4th spell (always the 4th lowest): 16 x normal price
...

So a "Mr. Hyde" potion (enlarge person, bear's endurance, bull's strength, rage) would cost:
enlarge person: 50 gp (50 x 1)
bear's endurance: 1,200 gp (300 x 4)
bull's strength: 2,400 gp (300 x 8)
rage: 12,000 gp (750 x 16)
Total: 15,650 gp
Too pricey? Not pricey enough?

[Viletta Vadim]

Fifteen thousand gold for a handful of first- and second-level buffs? Yeah, that's bonkers.

The problem with potions to begin with is that by and large, they're far too expensive to be worthwhile. The only buffing potion that's truly worthwhile is a CL1 potion of Enlarge Person. Other than that, they're only extreme emergency measures, like a potion of Fly, which is still brutally expensive for a one-shot item.

Healing is not a combat action, buffing is not a combat action unless the buffs are round/level, and spending thousands on a one-shot list minor buffs is not remotely worth it.

And really, the pre-BBEG buff is not at all unbelievable. If the Cleric wants to cast ten buffing spells before hand, that's literally stopping for one minute to pray. Finding one minute for prayer is generally not unreasonable.

[Morgen]

Wouldn't that be a highly toxic thing to create?

At least in the older editions of D&D, mixing potions was a really bad idea. Honestly I think I'll bring that rule back for my Pathfinder games, makes it so the BBEG can't be a cheap jerk and burn a few thousand gold in disposable magic items to become uber for the only combat he'll exist in.

So you can only be under the effect of a single potion at a time. Woo! Think it was more then just that though, I'll have to check my DMG...

[stardust]

Admixtures, from Book of Hallowed Might II

Admixtures
Admixtures are potions or oils with multiple effects. For
example, a potion of cure moderate wounds and bull’s
strength not only cures 2d8+3 hit points but grants the
drinker a +4 Strength bonus. With a single action, the
drinker gains the effects of all the potions in the
admixture. One can place up to three potion effects
into a single admixture. Only effects normally available
for potions can be made into admixtures, and
multiple potions of the same type (two cure light
wounds potions, for example) cannot become an
admixture. Anyone with the Brew Potion feat can create
an admixture with some basic instruction and at
least 5 ranks of the Craft (alchemy) skill.
The price for an admixture equals the sum of the
costs of all its potion effects plus 50 percent of the
total cost. So the aforementioned admixture of cure
moderate wounds (50 gp) and bull’s strength (300 gp) would cost 525 gp (50 + 300 + 175 gp). Common admixtures include:
• Admixture of escape: invisibility and fly, 1,575 gp
• Armor in a vial: barkskin +5, shield of faith +5, and mage armor, 3,225 gp
• Combat boost: heroism, barkskin +3, and haste, 3,150 gp
• Elemental protection admixture: protection from fire, protection from cold, and protection from electricity, 3,375 gp
• Fighter’s cocktail: bull’s strength and bear’s endurance, 900 gp
• Greater fighter’s cocktail: bull’s strength, bear’s endurance, and heroism, 2,025 gp
• The cure-all: neutralize poison, remove disease, and lesser restoration, 2,700 gp
• Ultimate blade oil: greater magic weapon +5 and keen weapon, 5,625 gp

[pres man]

Thanks Stardust, I was sure that this idea had probably been concieved of before. I think I start using those rules, it even gives a reason to take craft (alchemy).

Morgen wrote:

Wouldn't that be a highly toxic thing to create?

At least in the older editions of D&D, mixing potions was a really bad idea. Honestly I think I'll bring that rule back for my Pathfinder games, makes it so the BBEG can't be a cheap jerk and burn a few thousand gold in disposable magic items to become uber for the only combat he'll exist in.

So you can only be under the effect of a single potion at a time. Woo! Think it was more then just that though, I'll have to check my DMG...

Well if you've read any PF modules/AP, you'll notice that BBEGs are constantly assumed to have consumed multiple potions prior to battle. I'm just trying to give the PCs a chance to do the same thing, and at the same time make it more believable that the BBEG could have had time to do it.

[Rezdave]

pres man wrote:

Now there is already a precedent for having more than one type of effect on a magic item, the second one costs 50% more. So my idea is to allow a potion to have multiple spells built into it with the cost increasing for each additional spell.

I'd simply follow the pattern for Wondrous Items or Staves:

Most expensive effect is full-price;

Second most costly effect is 75% normal price, so long as it is related (aka, similar) to the primary effect;

All other effects are 50% of the normal, individual price, but must also be "similar";

All dissimilar effects are twice their normal price.

In this way, even if you couldn't cast "heal" you could still produce a potion of "remove/cure everything" by combining remove blindness/deafness, remove curse, remove disease, cure serious wounds, lesser restoration into a single potion, for a cost of 2,213gp. Considering that you probably don't need all of those at once it's pretty pricey, but then again if you need 2-3 and can't spare the rounds/AoOs then it's worth it.

Of course, since the above example removes effects AND cures hit points AND restores ability damage some DMs might argue it combines dissimilar effects. That's a judgement call. Also, I allow potions above 3rd level, so things like neutralize poison or restoration or heal become options. It allows for some interesting combinations.

Incidentally, it also gives you a legitimate mechanic for crafting Keoghtom's ointment, which is arguably a rule-breaker.

pres man wrote:

what if you allow the same spell twice?

You already answered your own question with the CLW example, but the answer is "NO", if only because the effects overlap. For that reason it is also pointless to put CLW and CCW in the same bottle.

Think of it like crafting a wondrous item. Even if you use different spells in the item if the bonus type is similar then they overlap, not stack. The only way to increase the bonus is to increase the caster level. Same with potions.

pres man wrote:

So a "Mr. Hyde" potion (enlarge person, bear's endurance, bull's strength, rage) would cost:

SOME MATH RESULTING IN:
Total: 15,650 gp?

This can't really be replicated, since the duration of rage is the caster's Concentration plus rounds/level, thus requiring a CL 30 potion to match the 3 minute duration of the other CL 3 effects (note that enlarge person is bumped in CL for duration's sake as well). However, assume that a 5th level caster could give you 3 minutes (rather than 5 rounds) of rage then we get:

All Similar = 1,200 gp

All Dissimilar = 2,250 gp

Otherwise:

CL 30 rage, All Similar = 4,950 gp

CL 15 extended rage, All Similar = 3,450 gp

CL 15 extended rage, All Dissimilar = 4,500 gp

Again, all these prices are determined using the extant mechanics of the 3.5 rules.

In all cases, I'd probably require an additional feat to brew multi-function potions.

FWIW,

Rez

[Hunterofthedusk]

this raises the question: why can't I just pour these ten potions into a flask and then down them all at once at some later time? I'm actually surprised that they never addressed the medical issues that might arise were someone to do something like this.

Ooooor... Someone could simply devise a bottle that is made of 3+ vials with one stopper. You remove the whole top, and then down all three(+) potions at the same time, thus circumventing this method. Seems like something I'd do with any of my gnome characters (as they are always spellcasters).

[Rezdave]

Hunterofthedusk wrote:

this raises the question: why can't I just pour these ten potions into a flask and then down them all at once at some later time? I'm actually surprised that they never addressed the medical issues that might arise were someone to do something like this.

Actually, this was address in 1st Edition. There was a table for what might happen if you mixed two potions together, including an explosion. If my DMG wasn't packed away I'd look up some fun stuff right now.

Also, back then you were only able to have one potion effect active at a time. If you even drank a second potion then you were risking some type of odd reaction (again, including a explosion, but internal).

Potions were conceived like medicine back then, and so immediately came up the idea of "drug interactions". Just like a doctor knows what prescriptions do and don't mix, I suppose a good alchemist knows what potions do and don't mix.

The actual rules about potion mixing and ill effects seem to have gone away, but for the grognards who are developers, the underlying mindset is still there. As a result, it doesn't get explicitly addressed. That's my guess, anyway.

R.

[silverhair2008]

I found a reference to taking different potions on the Wotc website, it is here.

[wraithstrike]

Viletta Vadim wrote:

Fifteen thousand gold for a handful of first- and second-level buffs? Yeah, that's bonkers.

The problem with potions to begin with is that by and large, they're far too expensive to be worthwhile. The only buffing potion that's truly worthwhile is a CL1 potion of Enlarge Person. Other than that, they're only extreme emergency measures, like a potion of Fly, which is still brutally expensive for a one-shot item.

Healing is not a combat action, buffing is not a combat action unless the buffs are round/level, and spending thousands on a one-shot list minor buffs is not remotely worth it.

And really, the pre-BBEG buff is not at all unbelievable. If the Cleric wants to cast ten buffing spells before hand, that's literally stopping for one minute to pray. Finding one minute for prayer is generally not unreasonable.

+1, again.

[A Man In Black]

Morgen wrote:

Wouldn't that be a highly toxic thing to create?

At least in the older editions of D&D, mixing potions was a really bad idea. Honestly I think I'll bring that rule back for my Pathfinder games, makes it so the BBEG can't be a cheap jerk and burn a few thousand gold in disposable magic items to become uber for the only combat he'll exist in.

So you can only be under the effect of a single potion at a time. Woo! Think it was more then just that though, I'll have to check my DMG...

There is already a tool to prevent this: Dispel Magic, or any lengthy combat-ender area control spell (clouds, fogs, etc.) Also, third-level buffs, seriously. It's not that big a deal.

[Virgil]

pres man wrote:

So a "Mr. Hyde" potion (enlarge person, bear's endurance, bull's strength, rage) would cost:

enlarge person: 50 gp (50 x 1)
bear's endurance: 1,200 gp (300 x 4)
bull's strength: 2,400 gp (300 x 8)
rage: 12,000 gp (750 x 16)
Total: 15,650 gp
Too pricey? Not pricey enough?

Way too pricey. I'm of the position that it should follow something close to the admixture paradigm:

* CL must be the same for all potions combined
* Duration of all effects become equal to the lowest (for math ease only), except instantaneous
* Most expensive potion at 100%, next most is 75%, all further at 50%

I would personally switch out the rage spell for heroism to make all of the effects last 3min, assuming minimum CL. This would create...

Blood of Battle: Casts [i]enlarge person, bear's endurance, bull's strength, heroism[i], all at CL 5, and lasts for 5 minutes.
* Large size
* -2 Dex
* +2 size Str
* +4 enhancement Str/Con
* +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks
Market Price: 1.500gp