Wizard Specializing After 1st Level ???

[Rezdave]

I understand why Wizards are required to choose a specialization at 1st level from the standpoint of simplifying mechanics, discouraging min/maxing or "speciality-dipping" and so forth.

Realistically, however, it makes a lot of sense that a wizard would start their career as a generalist and then specialize somewhere between 3rd-5th level. I consider this not unlike the way most people go to college for a BA/BS, but then some continue to a Masters and others continue on to an PhD. I'm talking here about degrees of specialty, not necessarily "Levels" of education, so please don't take any counter-arguments that direction.

Currently, I have an NPC that for backstory reasons sensibly would have been a generalist at lower levels, and later become a specialist (more than just taking the Spell Focus feat).

So, here's the scenario:

NPC begins as a generalist Wizard at 1st Level and progresses through 4th, then at 5th level becomes a Specialist

I can envision the following DM rulings:

1) NPC at 5th level loses all Universalist abilities and gains those of the Specialty School as if they had been a Specialist their entire career;

2) NPC keeps any Universalist benefits/abilities gained from 1st-4th levels, and only gains Speciality benefits for higher levels (or perhaps gains all Specialist benefits, but at a level-offset); NPC casts 1st and 2nd level spells normally but gains no bonus spell of any school while 3rd+ spells gain a bonus spell and are cast using Opposition School rules;

3) NPC must restart their career, as if multi-classing, becoming a Wiz4 (Uni.) / Wiz1 (Spec.) rather than a Wiz5 (Spec. w/HR).

So my question is:

How would you rule ... ?

( ... and, would your ruling differ substantially between 3.5 and PFRPG )

Thanks,

Rez

[Morgen]

I believe flavor wise the game is set up such that by the time your 1st level your already out of school. That's why they're normally significantly older then the other members of their race.

You've done the math and learned enough to be quite set in your ways.

3.5 had retraining which allowed wizards to rethink their specialization which always seemed a little hard to understand.

Your NPC back story should be about them, not about how they justify class features or the like. Just push their decisions back into their apprentice decade(s) and it should work out fine.

Mixing and matching different school powers would probably grow incredibly silly and overpowered if you allowed it in a game. I'd imagine quite a few people would start out as diviners...

[Rezdave]

Morgen wrote:

Mixing and matching different school powers would probably grow incredibly silly and overpowered if you allowed it in a game. I'd imagine quite a few people would start out as diviners...

I wouldn't allow switching specialities, but I do think going from generalist to specialist is (or should be, in limited circumstances) fair game. Especially for NPCs.

R.

[riatin]

Rezdave wrote:

Morgen wrote:

Mixing and matching different school powers would probably grow incredibly silly and overpowered if you allowed it in a game. I'd imagine quite a few people would start out as diviners...

I wouldn't allow switching specialities, but I do think going from generalist to specialist is (or should be, in limited circumstances) fair game. Especially for NPCs.

R.

Me and a fellow DM were talking about something like this last weekend, he was stating how some past Dragonlance book had suggested that parties start at 3rd level due to the fact most wizards were training during the 1st and 2nd levels in the Tower of High Sorcery. I'd say if you have a setting like that in which wizards aren't finished with their training till later in their career, say 1st through 5th, then that's good to use. But, if they're out adventuring they're most likely out of school and have chosen their specialty by that point.

[Rezdave]

riatin wrote:

wizards were training during the 1st and 2nd levels in the Tower of High Sorcery. I'd say if you have a setting like that in which wizards aren't finished with their training till later in their career, say 1st through 5th, then that's good to use.

Perhaps my College Degrees analogy is misleading people. I'm not necessarily talking about "formal training" or apprenticeship or even "going back to school".

Routinely in real life, people who start out as generalists (e.g. a Civil Engineer with a B.S.) will at some point over the course of their career develop a speciality (e.g. bridge design or environmental engineering or whatever) without necessarily going back to school. It is just the natural evolution of their career to go from generalist to specialist, whether through repeated exposure to a certain type of project/contract or through pursuit of evolving personal interests.

Wizards are assumed to continue to constantly study and research throughout their careers (e.g. new spells between levels, anyone?) so why should a generalist not become enamored of some speciality at a later point and chose to pursue that for the continuation of their career? I see this as one-way, of course. You cannot switch specialities or go from specialist to generalist. But generalist to specialist should be possible.

In my world, "wizard training" or apprenticeship is a relative thing. A 15th level Wizard can be an "apprentice" to a 23rd level Archmage. He will, of course, have his own 7th level apprentice who will have a 2nd level apprentice who will oversee the gaggle of "0-level" apprentices running around the archmage's citadel.

R.

[riatin]

The character has been getting the benefits of the univeralist wizard for 4 levels now, I can understand specializing and picking a something to go into, I always pictured that's how spell focus and greater spell focus reflected determined study of that school. What I wouldn't understand is the sudden decline in ability when it came to the two opposition schools, I'm sure a reasonable suggestion could be made, but to me it seems a bit strange. Going from your example, how would studying to become a bridge designer suddenly make you a poorer designer in another aspect of engineering, usually specialization in an area has a snowball effect for other aspects of the field and increasing overall understanding.

Wizard specializations dont reflect this, when you pick a certain field, two of your other fields get weaker or takes twice as much energy to produce effects from. That's my only big hangup about your analogy and why someone would want to pick it up at 5th. This of course applies to my example earlier of DL, but could see all of that coming into effect between the time the character finished training and adventuring began.

In answer to the actual question, I'd say that given the choice as the DM and for simplicity's sake, I'd simply go on as if the character had chosen the specialization at 1st and continue from there.

[Set]

I'd allow a specialist to generalize, or a generalist to specialize without much hassle, but probably not go for a specialist trying to change to another kind of specialist 'in-game.' (That sort of thing I'd be more likely to hand-wave and say, 'You were always an Illusionist.')

I don't necessarily see a Specialists difficulty preparing spells of his Opposition schools as being because he's suddenly dumb, or doesn't 'get' those spells, but that he's specifically aligned himself towards the energies of his Specialty school, and that in the process, he had to choose Schools of magic to become *less* attuned towards.

The generalist who becomes a specialist evoker with opposed schools of illusion and enchantment doesn't 'forget' how to cast color spray or charm person, he just becomes attuned to evocation magic, at the cost of being 'negatively attuned' to illusion and enchantment magic. Those sorts of magic resist him, like trying to grasp a handful of squirming eels, while evocation slides comfortably into place so readily that he can prepare an extra spell per day, so long as it's evocation.

[Sean FitzSimon]

I realize I'm speaking from a 3.5, but hear me out.

I played a Wizard in a 3.5 game for 2 1/2 years, and he was a blast. I'm a big-time optimizer, but flavor/RP comes first. I mean, he was (gasp) a Rainbow Servant with 3 lost caster levels. Shameful.

Anyways, my wizard was a conjurer who had chosen Enchantment/Necromancy as his barred schools. Mechanically wise, Boledrin wasn't able to cast them because those were the price for an additional Conjuration spell every level. Flavor wise, he just didn't get it. This is something that I don't think the rules discuss very well.

Magic in Dnd is interesting. Clerics gain magic by asking for it from beings OF magic. Druids gain magic by attuning themselves to the energy of the universe. Sorcerers gain magic by sharing a blood connection with said beings of magic. Wizards gain magic by deciphering and understanding the universe. It's deep, complicated, and incredibly difficult, but wizards devote years of their lives to unraveling the very fabric of reality to bend to their own wishes. This is magic to a wizard, and it's not a child's game. That's why they require such ungodly high IQs to even understand the big stuff. (My understanding was always IQ = Intelligence x10, on the basis that average humans had INT 10, and the average IQ is 100).

Once you break into arcane magic, wizard style, you begin studying the different schools of magic. They're schools because of how they affect the universe, and by that knowledge, how a wizard must learn to affect the universe. Conjuration spells are cast differently, and with different understandings, than abjuration spells. It's not just a matter of truenaming (know its name and have its power), it's a matter of understanding the formulas of space, time, and correspondence.

When a wizard BEGINS his study of magic, he can choose to pursue a certain school and gain a better understanding of it (via more spells). When he does this, in pathfinder, he focuses less on other schools, and thus doesn't quite get how they work. After all, as a wizard gains levels, he's simply deepening his understanding of the fabric of reality. His "barred schools" are more complicated for him, and thus require more energy and effort to succeed.

So really, the 1st level of wizard represents years of study and understanding, not your first couple weeks on the job. From a roleplaying standpoint it makes zero sense that he can suddenly become awesome at conjurations and crap at enchantments if he's spent years studying these concepts.

These are all just my opinions and understandings of the magic of DnD, so take them as that. I'd second the suggestion to simply pretend he'd been the specialization all along.

[Mirror, Mirror]

For simplicity sake, I would rule the transition from generalist to specialist to simply replace any generalist abilities with the corresponding specialist abilities. This would be easier in 3.5, but fundamentally stays the same. I would use some caveats, though...

1) Only a Generalist can move to being a specialist.

2) A specialist may move to Generalist, then again to Specialist, but only after spending time (levels) as a Gneeralist equal to the time they had been a Specialist (so spc3/gen2 needs to wait another level before trying out a new specialty)

3) You may not move into a category you previously left. This means once you move from Generalist to Specialist the first time, you can never go back. A Specialist can go from one specialty to another once, after meeting the level requirements, but then can never go back again.

This is to prevent moving every-other level. Since the abilities are replaced, you gain very little by moving, and it's a pain, but if that's what you want, go for it.

[Rezdave]

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

My understanding was always IQ = Intelligence x10, on the basis that average humans had INT 10, and the average IQ is 100

This idea has been around since 1st Ed. It's not really accurate, since you're much more likely to roll a 3d6 18 Int for your character than you are to possess a 145 IQ (which is considered "Genius"). In fact, the bell curve of 3d6 stats doesn't even make 3 Standard Deviations, meaning a 145 "genius" IQ is something like a 20 or 22 Int.

Quote:

So really, the 1st level of wizard represents years of study and understanding, not your first couple weeks on the job.

I generally figure an apprenticeship lasts 5 years to become a wizard (assuming a bright, human child starting at the age of 12), but can vary from as little as 6 months of intensive study and training from a devoted master to an older pupil to 7 years or even much longer if the master is inattentive or the apprentice starts especially young.

However, considering that for most NPCs (and that's what I'm discussing in this thread) it takes even more years of study to move from level to level, I see no reason not to make a switch down the line from Generalist to Specialist over the course of a career as a wizard which could, for an elf, last into multiple centuries.

R.

[Rezdave]

Incidentally, the NPC has been created, using 3.5 House Rules.

NPC is a middle-aged Elf Wiz8/Exp4 with Practiced Caster;

From Levels 1-4 was a Generalist;

At 5th Level, due to both circumstances in his life and changing interests, specialized as an Evoker, choosing Enchantment and Necromancy as opposition schools;

As an Evoker, automatically gained a House Rules version of Spell Focus that scales with level ( +1 plus 1 per 5 levels ) for a total bonus of +3 at CL 12;

Can still cast 0-2nd level Enchantment and Necromantic spells he previously knew, but cannot learn new spells of these schools nor cast higher level ones;

Gains only half his Focus bonus to 0-2nd level Evocations (+1 when rounded down);

Does not gain bonus Evocation spells at 0-2nd level, but does for 3rd level and above.

I think that's it,

R.