So, after the first battle in Fortress, my players took down quite a bit of the adversaries. This was mainly due to a wizard being able to dish out a ton of damage with a wand of improved fireball. Also, using Pathfinder RPG rules and very experienced players all around, they were able to avoid much of the punishment the giants could dish out.
In the end, the body count was:
Terktinus (CR 10)
Longtooth (fled, CR 10)
6 Stone Giants (CR 8 each)
2 Dire Bears (CR 7 each)
If I'm not mistaken, this calculates to over 10K XP. The characters are 9th level. This comes to over half the XP needed to advance to 10th. Am I missing something? This seems really HUGE.
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So, after the first battle in Fortress, my players took down quite a bit of the adversaries. This was mainly due to a wizard being able to dish out a ton of damage with a wand of improved fireball. Also, using Pathfinder RPG rules and very experienced players all around, they were able to avoid much of the punishment the giants could dish out.
In the end, the body count was:
Terktinus (CR 10)
Longtooth (fled, CR 10)
6 Stone Giants (CR 8 each)
2 Dire Bears (CR 7 each)If I'm not mistaken, this calculates to over 10K XP. The characters are 9th level. This comes to over half the XP needed to advance to 10th. Am I missing something? This seems really HUGE.
Per Back cover - "Adventure for 10th level characters", They should have been 10th level for the fight. Per page 9, they should be 11th level when they are ready to delve into (Spoiler removed by author).
The attack on sandpoint should have been very hard for a 9th level party to pull off. If you have more than 4 characters, or the characters are overgeared/overequipped/overmagiced you will need to increase the difficulty of the monsters to compensate.
On a seperate note:
By "Improved Fireball"- do you mean wand of Delayed blast? (7th level spell, wands are not designed to support spells above 4th) If we are talking about applying a metamagic feat, the price of the wand is: level of spell X creator's caster level X 750 gold.
My concern is that I think the value of the wand they are using may be greater than the equivalent character wealth of a character their level. That is fine, as long as you are ok with it and it fits into your campaign.
Per Back cover - "Adventure for 10th level characters", They should have been 10th level for the fight. Per page 9, they should be 11th level when they are ready to delve into (Spoiler removed by author).
The attack on sandpoint should have been very hard for a 9th level party to pull off. If you have more than 4 characters, or the characters are overgeared/overequipped/overmagiced you will need to increase the difficulty of the monsters to compensate.
On a seperate note:
By "Improved Fireball"- do you mean wand of Delayed blast? (7th level spell, wands are not designed to support spells above 4th) If we are talking about applying a metamagic feat, the price of the wand is: level of spell X creator's caster level X 750 gold.
My concern is that I think the value of the wand they are using may be greater than the equivalent character wealth of a character their level. That is fine, as long as you are ok with it and it fits into your campaign.
Yes, I understand this, however, if you play the encounter the way it's described in the adventure, given a properly prepared party of 9th level, this can be a series of encounters that is not so difficult.
The wizard's wand is a wand of Empowered Fireball which he crafted (375 x 5 (spell level) x 9 (wizard's level) = 20250 gp). This is not out of line for the wealth by character level entry in the Pathfinder RPG. He was doing pretty much 40-50 dmg per blast which takes out a giant in 2 rounds along with help from other party members.
And given that the giants in each encounter are focused on thrashing buildings, they're not specifically paying attention to the characters when they show up. Especially when the wizard is flying and using greater invisibility, which again, is not out of line for his level, it makes it much easier for the PCs to win.
EDIT: Also, seeing as how the PCs do not face all the giants at once, but are more likely encountering 1-2 giants at a time as they manage to stop what they're doing and attack the PCs, it's not unheard of for the PCs to take down this much using all their resources.
I was under the impression that wands only went up to 4th level, even with metamagic added to it. Therefore, a wand of empowered fireballs(5th level) is not even possible to create.
I was under the impression that wands only went up to 4th level, even with metamagic added to it. Therefore, a wand of empowered fireballs(5th level) is not even possible to create.
This is correct. A 5th-level equivalent wand like empowered fireball is not possible under normal wand rules. Unless you are specifically allowing it, it should not be purchasable.
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It's not quite a minor artifact, but the wand is beyond what the game is built for and what the cost equation was designed for.
I think the only way we can trouble shoot the encounter is if we have some more details.
Can you tell us how the Irontooth encounter went?
Longtooth has Blindsense 60, "keen senses" plus his immunity to fire could have tipped the scales in his favor. I really could see the Dragon flying over to the bursts of fire that he did not create, (Draconic version of "WTF is that?") flying over the area, reaziing that something was out of the ordinary with these fireballs and then flying around the area with the invis wizard. If he got within 60 feet of the wizard, the wizard would probally literally be toast.
It's not quite a minor artifact, but the wand is beyond what the game is built for and what the cost equation was designed for.
So, I ran the encounter pretty much as described in the adventure. With any attack by giants, I included 1 extra giant, including the attack on the North Gate. The PCs had the advantage since the giants had to go 1 by 1 through the 10' wide gate. However, it's the same pattern with most battles, wizard casts fly, goes up and starts using his wand. Softens up targets then the fighter goes in with cleric right on his heels for healing. A fourth PC is a sorcerer who used greater invis and went after giants with scorching ray/enchantment spells the wiz couldn't catch in a fireball. They always remembered to attack then move so even if the giants attacked the square they were hit from, they would be attacking an empty square.
Few rounds go by and they finish those giants. Then they head for the second group. Same pattern as before, except the giants start throwing rocks first. Again, wizard softens up with fireballs then the fighter/cleric combo moves in. As soon as the fighter is down 50% of hit points, he gets healing from the cleric.
The giants in this encounter were attacking town guards and the dire bears with them were eating innocents. The dragon shows up and given the flight rules and (my impression) that the dragon is more interested in destroying the town than confronting the PCs, the heroes can do little to intercept him.
After a couple more rounds, the fighter and cleric make it to the air via potions of fly. They watch the actions of Terak as he heads for the Old Light. They are focused on him because they believe he's up to something dangerous. The wizard wants a shot at the dragon so he maneuvers himself into the center of town so that he's most likely in range for a flyby. He barely gets range to put up a wall of force and the dragon flies directly into it.
I guess, as the previous poster pointed out, that I did not take into account Longtooth's blindsense and have him scope for invisible heroes. I figured, per the script, that the dragon is there to maintain presence as the distraction and isn't worried if a few giants get killed until something attacks him directly. After the dragon hit the wall, he falls to the ground and the wizard follows up with a cone of cold. As a group we discussed the damage for hitting the wall and the resulting fall. That damage was a little too much (the rules we came to agreement on weren't so great) and the wizard rolled well for the cone of cold damage. That basically sent longtooth packing.
The remaining PCs meanwhile focus on Terak as soon as he gets to the old light and they're able to take him down with a modest amount of effort. With terak and Longtooth out, the battle is over and the rest of the giants pack up and leave. That was round 22.
Both the cleric and the fighter have approx 31 AC which means any attack from a stone giant will only likely hit on the first attack. In addition, the fighter can dish out d8+12+1d6 electricity damage per attack.
In the end, I feel like I was just outmatched by better thinking and better equipped heroes. The giants had pretty much 0 spellcasting and the dragon never really focused on them. And it was kindof my understanding that that's the way the encounter is supposed to work.
I was under the impression that wands only went up to 4th level, even with metamagic added to it. Therefore, a wand of empowered fireballs(5th level) is not even possible to create.This is correct. A 5th-level equivalent wand like empowered fireball is not possible under normal wand rules. Unless you are specifically allowing it, it should not be purchasable.
He crafted it. Still not allowed?
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Its a basic limitation in the fundamental nature of magic items, just like potions cannot be made to emulate a spell higher than 3rd level. Regardless of whether he made it, bought it, or stole it from a dragon horde, according to the base rules, it should not be possible to create normally. Obviously you can do whatever you like in your own game, but I think what the other posters on the thread were pointing out is that its an atypical item which could have influenced how easily the party succeeded.
Core rulebook, pg 496 "A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower." I would interpret that to mean taking into consideration the effects of metamagic in my world, but you could decide to rule differently. Just realize that this could one day open the door to a wand of empowered, maximized, widened fireballs, since the "base spell" is still 3rd lvl. In my game I don't let my players use metamagic on wands, only staves, since they are more powerful and take into consideration the players DC ehancements and also require a higher caster level to craft, which is more in line with chaincasting metamagic spells via a device.
If that particular item was required to be a staff, your player could not have crafted it yet, and it could have impacted the outcome of the game, since tossing multiple empowered fireballs around is possibly a little powerful at this point in the AP, at least IMHO.
In a different line of discussion, I am looking forward to sending the various groups at different targets in town and giving my players fits, since each has several people or places in Sandpoint near and dear to their heart. Assaulting the Hagfish, Turandurock Academny, the temple, the theatre, the Rusty Dragon, etc, is going to send each character flying off to protect their own so to speak, so it should be interesting to see how they handle it. I suspect their emotional reactions may prevent them from executing up to snuff and allow a fair number to get away from the confines of the town.
Its a basic limitation in the fundamental nature of magic items, just like potions cannot be made to emulate a spell higher than 3rd level. Regardless of whether he made it, bought it, or stole it from a dragon horde, according to the base rules, it should not be possible to create normally.
I have a question posted in the Rules forum regarding this. I have read conflicting sources in the Pathfinder rules. It maybe the wand which is the balance shifter here, but I'm not ready to lay blame on the wand just yet.
In a different line of discussion, I am looking forward to sending the various groups at different targets in town and giving my players fits, since each has several people or places in Sandpoint near and dear to their heart. Assaulting the Hagfish, Turandurock Academny, the temple, the theatre, the Rusty Dragon, etc, is going to send each character flying off to protect their own so to speak, so it should be interesting to see how they handle it.
That was another issue for this combat. The PCs were relatively new to the town (they're all from around Magnimar) and they didn't have any particular affection for any one place.
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Where does it conflict? I haven't seen any conflict as much as they don't explicitly say anything about the effects of metamagic on level for item and potion creation for that matter, at least not that I have seen.
In response to your other post, yeah that does reduce the difficulty level of the encounter a bit, since really they only have to worry about saving their own hides, plus whatever incidental bit of assistance they can render. In my party, the wizard would have been more concerned with protecting townsfolk and putting out fires than gunning for the dragon, so it definitely changes things.
Where does it conflict?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
3rd Paragraph
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
EDIT: Please post a reply to this thread
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Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread with the whole wand debate.
Does anyone else have druids in their group? I think the giants using the dire bears in town is going to cause more upset than anything with my party, since the druid in my game has a bear for a companion and everyone in town knows them to be sweet and cuddly now. I made the druid teach the bear a "cute" trick to please the children and make the bear seem less fierce, if the druid wanted to be able to walk around town with his animal companion. Once the giants maraud dire bears through the town, the town's panic level over bears may go up again significantly.
To answer your original question in the initial post, it probably won't throw off the adventure difficulty too much. You could also switch to using level up points in your AP, like Lisa Stevens and some others have done. Details are here...
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Does anyone else have druids in their group? I think the giants using the dire bears in town is going to cause more upset than anything with my party, since the druid in my game has a bear for a companion and everyone in town knows them to be sweet and cuddly now. I made the druid teach the bear a "cute" trick to please the children and make the bear seem less fierce, if the druid wanted to be able to walk around town with his animal companion. Once the giants maraud dire bears through the town, the town's panic level over bears may go up again significantly.
Yes, and my player's Druid also had a bear. The townspeople didn't get too worried about the threat of bears since the Druid was shapechanged into a bear for the entire encounter (Bear vrs bear almost)
If the PC hasn't been too warmn, I could see that being an issue.
"Threat of Bears"- Not a bad band name, or adventuring party name
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After a couple more rounds, the fighter and cleric make it to the air via potions of fly. They watch the actions of Terak as he heads for the Old Light. They are focused on him because they believe he's up to something dangerous. The wizard wants a shot at the dragon so he maneuvers himself into the center of town so that he's most likely in range for a flyby. He barely gets range to put up a wall of force and the dragon flies directly into it.
The only three things I think I can comment on are:
The Dragon encounter. We used to use Wall of force like that in 2nd edition to take out flying creatures, and it's still a valid tactic that can make DMs scream. Rules wise it's 100% ok. However, you are throwing up a wall in front of a target going pretty fast. Think of it like throwing a mattress in front of a car going at 80 miles an hour. If you're holding on to the spell till the last minute to make sure you get him there is a pretty good chance the caster can screw it up. Just something you might want to address in your game before you get further in the AP, it's legit tactics, but I think you are within your rights to ask for a high DC spell craft check to make sure they are accounting for the velocity and flight path of the Dragon.
You've got a LOT of arcane magic in that party, which can be really really fun but can also allow them to blow through a lot of content. You might have to have a lot of the encounters adopt more anti-caster tactics to make the AP still challenging to the PCs. Maybe even have some of giants later on have a few alchemical items that simply explode in a 30x30 area of pink chalk dust. The forces of evil know about the PCs by now, so they may start taking precautions. Also, have the player's tactics used against them. I know a certain spell caster later on that would love to turn that wall of force trick against the PCs.
32 AC? That could be a bit high for 9th level non-monk PCs, even assuming Plate and shield. Did they get to 9th by playing through the AP or did they start in from somewhere else? Maybe just something to adjust for.
Suggestion:
Later on in the fort, move the kobold barbarian into the same room as Mokmurian, or have him hold back the hounds for the final encounter. Your PCs should not go up against Mokmurian 4 to one.
I hope some of this helps. I think you are doing fine and let us know how it goes!
32 AC? That could be a bit high for 9th level non-monk PCs, even assuming Plate and shield. Did they get to 9th by playing through...
They started at 6th after a TPK, otherwise all the equipment is legit. I think it might total out to slightly higher than average wealth per level.
But you're absolutely right, I have been up until this series of encounters re-arranging the opponents to provide maximum lethality. I will probably have to go back to that.
I guess my real problem was that it seemed like this encounter was very scripted, and following the script, it didn't work out so well.