Hey folks, just got my Pathfinder copy (hooray!) and while skimming over it, I was looking to see what was done for the fighter.
One of the things I had been somewhat disappointed about the 3.5 rules was that the majority of feats stopped having (worthy) requirements beyond about 8th level. Just glancing over PF, doesn't look like things have changed.
Have I missed feats that only really come into play (for any class/race) above 8th level or do none still exist?
Assuming the latter, I'd really like to see feats that are both reasonable and have requirements that can't be reached until 8th level or greater. Somewhat like the spell system, I personally believe there should be feats that scale upwards, available at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th & 18th level - preferably chains extending the existing feats into higher tiers. If you can suggest any - existing or homebrewed, I'd like to hear them.
And before someone suggests it, I want nothing to do with the psuedo 4E Tome of Battle. The content of that book takes my game in a direction I do not wish to go.
Would you mind explaining exactly what that direction you don't want to go is? There are alot of different ways of interpretting and applying the Book of Nine Swords, it would be nice to understand what exactly your looking to avoid before trying to offer any advice.
Well, two-fold on the Book of Swords - definitely no new classes or mechanics to activate the feat, such as an action focus to use a feat or such. The feats should be either constant use (like Toughness, Spell Focus or Iron Will) or at-will (like Power Attack, Silent Spell or Improved Trip). Nothing like the "powers" within the ToB, where its essentially a new subsystem akin to an alternate version of a spell system.
An, example, if perhaps a bad one:
Improved Whirlwind Feat
Prerequisites: BAB 11+, Whirlwind Attack
Benefits: When you make a Whirlwind Attack, you deal an extra 1d6 damage on a hit (OR, you make two attack rolls against each target and take the better result).
I plan on writing a lot of this stuff, as well as converting still more from Iron Heroes before I'm through.
For one thing, most of my races have at least one racial feat that isn't available until after 10th level.
Personally, though, I think that "feats for high level people to take" is a worthier goal than "feats which ONLY high-level people can take". What I mean is that a "high-level" feat can be one with lots of other feats as prerequisites, not necessarily one with a hard level prerequisite; something a barbarian might not take until 15th but which a fighter might work his way to around 8th or 10th.
You know Hydro, between you, me, and Kirth (I think there were one or two others involved in massive rewrites, but I don't remember offhand) there's practically going to be an entire alternate pathfinder ruleset floating around lol.
lol
That reminds me that I need to go touch up my bard and ranger (I've been putting it off while trying to get other things finished).
Personally, though, I think that "feats for high level people to take" is a worthier goal than "feats which ONLY high-level people can take". What I mean is that a "high-level" feat can be one with lots of other feats as prerequisites, not necessarily one with a hard level prerequisite; something a barbarian might not take until 15th but which a fighter might work his way to around 8th or 10th.
If you can work them up that way, I'd certainly like to see how you'd handle it.
Also, though I didn't mention it earlier, one of the other beefs I had with the old 3.5 feats is that just about ANYONE could get the combat feats. To me, that stinks as bad as letting any old class be handed the wizard's spells or some other class feature. Combat feats are the fighter's bread and butter. Just as if someone wants Sneak Attack they should take a few rogue levels - or if someone wants arcane spells they need to take sorcerer/wizard/bard levels, I really feel anyone who wants combat feats ought to be taking fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian levels. If your rogue wants to fight, say with two weapons, make him take a couple levels of fighter or ranger to get the feats. The wizard wants Combat Focus with Rays? Make him take a level of fighter. If the fighter wanted to add True Strike to his arsenal, he'd have to take a level of Wizard, right?
Just a rant.
Also, though I didn't mention it earlier, one of the other beefs I had with the old 3.5 feats is that just about ANYONE could get the combat feats. To me, that stinks as bad as letting any old class be handed the wizard's spells
You mean it stinks as bad as the "potion" and "wondrous item" sections? =p
I firmly believe that feats should be open to anyone who qualifies for them; you're not going to see much class-protectionism in the stuff I write. Occorse, I've also written a Harrow Elf feat that lets a 14th level character (of any class) get a 3rd level spell-like ability, soo...
It's an understandable concern Stephen, but my goal, is to flood the system with so many very good combat feats that all do different things, that sure rogues and barbarians can take the feats, but if there are 100 really really high quality feats and very few (hopefully none at all) crap ones, then the fighter is going to be so much better at the feat game because he gets so many.
Btw, Stephen, what's your oppinion on my revised whirlwind attack?
(If the wording wasn't clear, please tell me so, it's supposed to be usable any time you make an attack, and let you swing at that attack's bonus vs all targets within your reach)
Feats don't all have to be straight-up combat effects; I'd love to see plenty of feats that give the classes other than fighters some neat options - for example, some of the abilities presented as skill tricks on Complete Adventurer would make nice higher-level at-will feats.
As for the Whirlwind Feat, I think the feat is a bit too powerful to remove all restrictions - for example, allowing it to be used as any iterative attack (especially considering haste effects, which would be available to most groups by 5th level). I'd been thinking more along the lines of the Two-Weapon fighting, Improved Two-Weapon fighting and such where Whirlwind would start out with only one attack (as it currently is), then add more options at higher level - say extra damage, attacks or loosening the restrictions on what can be coupled into a whirlwind attack (the fighter's AoE effect). Whether it's additional feats to buy or options that only kick in at higher levels (say extra damage at BAB 11+ and again at 16+) or other effects (allowing certain feats to be used with whirlwind, such as Improved Trip, such as "at 11th level, you can add in one additional combat effect, such as Tripping, Stunning, Disarming, etc."), I think that would be a better avenue. *Some* of the restrictions on Whirlwind are there for good reasons, IMHO.
Also, though I didn't mention it earlier, one of the other beefs I had with the old 3.5 feats is that just about ANYONE could get the combat feats. To me, that stinks as bad as letting any old class be handed the wizard's spellsYou mean it stinks as bad as the "potion" and "wondrous item" sections? =p
I firmly believe that feats should be open to anyone who qualifies for them; you're not going to see much class-protectionism in the stuff I write. Occorse, I've also written a Harrow Elf feat that lets a 14th level character (of any class) get a 3rd level spell-like ability, soo...
Touche on the potion/wondrous item comment, though conceivably, feat potions/wondrous items can likewise be made so that's sorta a wash.
The Harrow Elf feat is granting something 9 levels below "standard" abilities for that level, so that *might* not be so bad. Can you post the feat here?
Of course, if you're going to make "race feats" that are only available to members of a certain race, I see no reason why class-specific feats are so bad - I mean, how useful are the turning/channeling feats to a fighter or rogue - or for that matter, the metamagic feats? I do think each class should have a group of feats that really only benefits them - rogues could be tied to sneak attack or trapfinding, wizards would obviously be tied to spells, clerics can get channeling feats, druids could have shapeshifting specific feats. But how do you make feats only really useful to, say, fighters without somehow tying them to high BAB or Fort saves? In PF, I guess it'd be tied to Weapon/Armor Mastery?
As for the Whirlwind Feat, I think the feat is a bit too powerful to remove all restrictions - for example, allowing it to be used as any iterative attack (especially considering haste effects, which would be available to most groups by 5th level). I'd been thinking more along the lines of the Two-Weapon fighting, Improved Two-Weapon fighting and such where Whirlwind would start out with only one attack (as it currently is), then add more options at higher level - say extra damage, attacks or loosening the restrictions on what can be coupled into a whirlwind attack (the fighter's AoE effect). Whether it's additional feats to buy or options that only kick in at higher levels (say extra damage at BAB 11+ and again at 16+) or other effects (allowing certain feats to be used with whirlwind, such as Improved Trip, such as "at 11th level, you can add in one additional combat effect, such as Tripping, Stunning, Disarming, etc."), I think that would be a better avenue. *Some* of the restrictions on Whirlwind are there for good reasons, IMHO.Not going to lie my feat is much more powerful than the origonal whirlwind attack, and has feats that fit the concept better, but to look at my houserules you have to understand I'm endeavoring to make non-casters equally effective to casters, and to do that non-caster class features need to be very strong, and combat feats need to be equally strong (it's a delicate balance, making sure that the feats are just right that the fighter is equally balanced to the other full BAB classes in his own way)
My whirlwind attack feat is designed for two-handers, two-weapon fighters have alot of valuable options and assets in my houserules, and they can use whirlwind attack but only 1 weapon at a time.
Here's what it would look like with... lets say an 11th level fighter surrounded by 4 Orks (I'm going to say that they are level 8 barbarian Orks, just to make this interesting.)
He's under the effect of Haste, so he has 4 attacks this round.
...
I've run into the same quandry - attempting to find a way to keep the fighter pertinent without throwing them out of balance. However, I'd be careful...fighters aren't the only ones who can get this...imagine a monk who takes this with Flurry of Blows. Rogues with this feat (+Sneak attack), could throw things out of whack as well.
I like the idea of specific mechanics having their own feats to modify them, but that's totally different from restricting feats to a given class. Channel Smite doesn't care if you're a paladin, a cleric, a fighter who's taken an undead hunter PrC, whatever. Its a feat with a specific job in the system, not a feat invented to make a specific class feel special because only they can take it.
I am considering a "generalist" feat which would let the fighter apply his Weapons Training bonuses to all weapons, not just one type.
Here are those harrow feats (it will probably be reposted along with a bunch of other elf stuff once I finish this dream bloodline):
HARROW BLOOD
Few alive today are as physically deformed as the first harrow elves, nor as magically powerful: these perversions have grown less pronounced with each passing generation. You are an exception.
Prerequisites: Harrow elf, character level 1st only
Benefit: Choose one 1st-level sorcerer/wizard spell. You may use this as a spell-like ability once per day. In place of this ability, you may cast any spell that you already know without consuming a spell slot. In either case you suffer 2 points of wisdom damage every time you use this ability.
Special: Your appearance is considerably more gruesome than that of even other harrow elves, and you suffer a -1 penalty to all charisma-based checks (except intimidate) unless you take some effort to physically cover or magically disguise your flesh.
HARROW CORRUPTION
Long practice, research, and foul meditation have honed your magical talents.
Prerequisite: Harrow Blood, spellcraft 7 ranks
Benefit: Choose a 2nd level sorcerer/wizard spell- you may use this spell as a spell-like ability in place of the one you chose when you took Harrow Blood, and may cast either one a second time per day. You may still cast a spell that you already know (without consuming the slot) in place of a daily use of these spell-like abilities, and still suffer 2 points of wisdom damage when doing either.
HARROW DEPRAVITY
While your ancestors had corruption forced upon them, you have actively pursued it: a path that has lead to great power but also made you an abomination in the eyes of your fellows.
Prerequisite: Harrow Corruption, spellcraft 14 ranks
Benefit: You may choose a 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spell to add to your list of spell-like abilities, and gain a 3rd daily use of said abilities.
Whenever you choose to cast a spell that you already know in place of a spell-like ability, the spell deals 2 points of ability damage (of your choice) to any targets who fail their save. These spells also gain the evil descriptor.
So, actually 3 uses of that SLA per day, but you pay 3 feats to get it.
As you can probably tell, it was my goal to make a "dark magic" chain that was equally viable for both spellcasters and non-spellcasters. Their favored class in 3.0 was actually monk, and the "iconic" harrow in my mind is either a monk or a rogue with a few strange and deadly magical powers.
Why on Harrow Depravity does the Wis damage switch to the target? Also, can the 3rd ability in the chain use the 3rd level spell-like ability 3 times or is it 1 use of the 1st level spell-like ability, one use of the 2nd-level ability and one level of the 3rd-level ability? Otherwise, that seems...overpowered if you can do the 3rd level spell-like ability 3 times a day (a wizard can only do 3 3rd level spells themselves!).
It's 3 uses per day of any SLA in the chain (or casting spells you already know for free 3 times per day, or some combination of the two), after taking 3 feats. On the non-caster side, there isn't much you can do with this that you can't just do with UMD by that level.
You take wisdom damage whenever you do any of this, even with Harrow Depravity (it doesn't say it changes that). I guess a third repetition there wouldn't hurt, though. You're right, the fact that you deal damage to the target does make it a little confusing (it could be read as if you're just passing the damage on, which wasn't my intent).
As you can probably guess, I'm not really used to high-level feats - part of the reason I'm asking, so I can get an idea of what would be reasonable.
I guess I made the mistake of thinking that the +3 bonus for class skills counted as ranks, so I was thinking the last feat would be obtainable about 11th level (well, actually 9th - bad math and all).
Any other feats folks would like to toss out for consideration.
A bit of an admission - I was working on a list of fighter feats that worked off of "adrenaline surges" for my own game, akin to the monk's ki pool, but I'd much rather see what would be feasible feat-wise in the double-digit levels without getting into arbitrary limits on usage.